I was hoping to do this blogpost before the Zimmerman-Martin verdict was in. But my personal life has been hectic.
Yesterday, while waiting at the barber shop, I breezed through the LATimes, and saw this article on actor Michael B. Jordan as it relates to his new movie coming out, Fruitvale Station. I didn’t read the whole article then, and I actually haven’t read the entire article now. I’m not that interested in the movie itself. What caught my attention was this:
One of his few extravagances was a BMW 330, which he used to jet from acting jobs in New York City and his home in Newark, N.J.
“That car gave me a lot of headaches,” he recalled, sitting in an empty Los Angeles gastropub midafternoon. Because he was an African American teenager driving a nice car, Jordan said, he was pulled over and questioned by the police dozens of times. “They’d say, ‘Is it stolen?’ I’d tell them to check the locks. ‘Please step out of the car.’ [What] do I need to step out of the car for? ‘Step out of the car.'”
I have no doubt that many blacks have had the experience of being unfairly scrutinized or stereotyped. However, it may be the case that at times, there are other factors at play, other than flat out overt “racism”; or subtle, subconscious, institutionalized racism.
I wish I had time right now to really think this through and do a more thoughtful, well-researched post; but sometimes you go to post with the material you have, not the one you wish you had. 😉
I have an event to prepare for tomorrow and I still need to find a way to squeeze in the time for gathering up Sunday Funnies!
Anyway, I wanted to give this personal story of mine wider attention. It’s a cut-and-paste from a comment I made in 2008; and I apologize for not making it more “blogpost worthy”, elaborating on my thoughts and feelings and adding further commentary. But I still hope it conveys another side to the issue of race, profiling, and stereotypes:
When I was still in college, I had part-time work as security in a retail store. At first I was uniformed, as a visible deterrent to shoplifters. I took my job seriously, and was good at preventing and catching shoplifters and would-be shoplifters. Because I paid attention to customers. ALL customers. Every single customer who walked into the store, I made a friendly greeting to, and would spend a moment observing their behavior. After a while, I’d only occasionally “check up” on customers who I determined gave me no cause for further scrutiny, initially. It was simple: act normal, and chances are I’d think you were there to shop. Pay more attention to me or the sales staff, roll merchandise up, check through a stack of clothing and pull out the one that doesn’t have a sensor tag, look around a lot, act nervous…..all these behavioral signs is what made me pay more attention to certain people.
On a couple of instances, I had customers who came into a store and IMMEDIATELY, paid attention to me. And they were black. I am sure that they have probably been unfairly followed around in stores, before. But the problem is, their experience has “contaminated” their shopping behavior, to where they are looking to be followed around. So they are looking for it. And if you’re looking shifty-eyed, angry, or paying attention to sales help and to security….that’s not normal behavior.
The two customers assumed I was watching them because they were black. I watched them because it was my job, and they drew my attention, because of how they acted. One of them, when I figured out why he was watching me, I had a chance to explain it to him. Shoplifters spend a lot of time watching what security and sales staff are doing. Whether or not they are paying attention. Normal shoppers spend time looking at merchandise, and only look at sales helpers when they have a question and need help. That seemed to clear the air. He realized that he was suspicious of me right away, because I was security. And was staring at me right away. The other person, I did not get that chance of explanation. I am sure, after the fact, that he was a normal shopper as well. But he left in a huff, and unfortunately, he probably had his own preconceived notions reinforced by his misperceived experience with me; and he probably went on to tell others, “yes, America’s a racist country! Why, I’ve been followed around and watched unfairly in stores….” without ever considering maybe it’s his own behavior…maybe a chip he carries on his shoulder, that makes him find validation and confirmation of racism where none is present.
I have not been following the Zimmerman trial much at all. I only catch snippets here and there; nor have I followed all of the debate and discussions going on right here at FA.
Having admitted my ignorance to many of the details of this case, I don’t get the impression that this is a story that ever should have been about racism. Please fill me in as to why I am wrong, if I’ve missed something that points to Zimmerman as having had his actions and behavior influenced by racial stereotyping and prejudice.
So much of this seems to have been a media-driven story. People have worked themselves up over it, making the media frenzy even more; which of course results in people wanting to talk about it even more.
From my limited observations, what has been truly disheartening, is how both sides (Zimmerman supporters and Martin supporters) seem to have entrenched their opinions based upon emotions, personal biases, selective media stories (which often has perpetuated so many false narratives and distortions on the details), rather than just allowing the actual evidence brought to trial, play itself out in court.
Zimmerman is not a hero. And Martin might not have been a teenage boy with a halo hanging over his head.
And now we have true racists fanning the flames of racial hatred in the era of Obama: “This Time We’re Going Out To Whitey’s Suburbs and Burning Down HIS Community”
In preparation for the possibility of an acquittal of George Zimmerman, The New Black Panther Party has reportedly begun a mobilization campaign to target white communities.
According to a recent post on Sodahead, leader Samir Shabazz and the New Black Panthers are preparing to take the fight directly to those guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin – white people living in suburbs all over America.
“This time we’re doing it right… This time we’re not burning down our communities. This time we’re going out to Whitey’s suburbs and burning down HIS community. We’re going to make Whitey feel the pain.”
The Zimmerman-Martin shooting is indeed all about race, race relations, and racism. But it’s not George Zimmerman nor Trayvon Martin who are responsible for this; for turning this into a race issue.
In my opinion.
There’s more than one tragedy involved, here.
A former fetus, the “wordsmith from nantucket” was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968. Adopted at birth, wordsmith grew up a military brat. He achieved his B.A. in English from the University of California, Los Angeles (graduating in the top 97% of his class), where he also competed rings for the UCLA mens gymnastics team. The events of 9/11 woke him from his political slumber and malaise. Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics coach.
The wordsmith has never been to Nantucket.
It’s all in the terminology. It is said that the black community prefers “African-American”. Hyphenated Americans are not and according to blacks that were polled on a recent Hannity audience participation program in which ALL the participants were black, that sentiment prevailed among the vast majority of them. As a matter of fact the majority found that “African-American” was, to them insulting, preferring to be called just Americans. Since it appears that the community we see in the media everyday refuses to identify as Americans, they then must identify with something or somewhere else, hence they seize upon “the motherland” Africa although none have ever even come close to visiting there or attempting to live there since they would be just as much failures there as they are here and they know it. There is no welfare state, no EBT card, no 60″ TV, no free cell phone or any of the other luxuries afforded them here in America.
Quite the contrary actually. Most of the areas of Africa that these people long for and identify with are tribal, meaning that one has to contribute to the tribe or starve. In other words, you work for the benefit of others first and then yourself. Sounds kinda socialistic doesn’t it? But here in America, edging ever closer to socialism, that tribe exists only because of the work that others do. They survive on the work of others. They don’t contribute to the “collective tribe” that is the American citizenry.
We can’t use the terms colored, negro, black or American to describe them so the inaccurate terminology of “African-American” has become the politically correct way to describe them.
Too bad that the left has so totally indoctrinated them that they cannot even describe themselves as Americans.
Celebrating Stupidity And Evil
Like the flotsam and jetsam
of life’s most inconspicuous
Lives that never really began
Vile creatures so innocuous
now in a political whirlpool
playing the everyman’s fool
now caught in the torrent
of false rage they torment
Rush the tempo of hatred
Vile evil seeks an excuse
To dance with the inbred
and set the demon loose
The racist needs not a reason
To unleash hatred and lunacy
Stupidity declares open season
For those who lack logic fluency
OP:
Here is one black man’s take that might address some of your questions.
http://gawker.com/the-zimmerman-jury-told-young-black-men-what-we-already-770650992
During these times of racial mongering I think about the young white girl who was born in Africa and insisted she was African-American a few years back in public school to the point that she was disciplined because other Americans of African heritage who were born in the US resented her trying to horn in on their community of “African-Americans”. A black writer once wrote about going to Africa and not being treated as a fellow African as he thought of himself, but as an American. We can’t escape our Americanism regardless of our heritage.
Now we should ask ourselves, if Zimmerman would have had an Hispanic last name to match his apparent ethnicity or if Zimmerman had been black, would this case have been but another of the many violent deaths that befall young men who ascribe to the gangland cultures.
I am now going to work and will be unavailable to answe charges of racism and ignominy.
@Tom:
Why would this man’s opinion make the ordeal about race? The tape of Zimmerman talking to the police showed Zimmerman said he thought Trayvon was black. What the gentlemen in the opinion you posted believes is that Zimmerman knew Trayvon was black and stalked him with no other intention other than to kill him specifically because he was black. Really?
Zimmerman was stupid; that’s not against the law. Getting out of your car and following someone while talking to the Police isn’t against the law. Zimmerman was obviously in a struggle, evident by the photos. During that struggle he felt that he was in danger, pulled his gun and killed Trayvon Martin. Sad and unfortunate, but no illegal.
My thoughts and prayers are with Trayvon’s family over the loss of their son. Also because I understand some idiots have made death threats against them.
The same for the Zimmerman family, since I understand another set of idiots have made death threats against him and his family.
@Tom: Twenty years ago, this point of view would have been more valid. But today it’s just ignorant and immature. My fear is that some with a socio-political agenda have brainwashed too-many into a sustained victim mentality, and many “well-meaning” whites get their identity by the thought of fighting against bigotry (not aware of their own).
Besides, the goal is equality without regard to race (or should be). Any attempt at making a protected class that is continually told they are victims is evil, and should be resisted.
Race is all relative these days. Examples:
Barack Obama: mom is white, dad is black. Empirically, he is bi-racial, neither white nor black. But in keeping the slave-days “on-drop” rule (something we all should reject), he “passes” for black visually, so that’s what he is. It also made for a better story in getting votes. Conservative African Americans? Not so special, apparently. That’s prejudice, bigotry, and subjugation.
George Zimmerman: mom is white, dad is latino. He is also bi-racial. He “passes” for latino. But when he shot a 6’2″ assailant in self-defense, his “whiteness” was used by racists to change the application of the laws, feeling justified by past offenses against African-Americans.
The article you cite isn’t a valid reason to keep racism alive. I understand the guy’s frustration, but it also reveals his own bigotry in treating any run in with a white person as racial. He’s assuming what the white person is thinking based on the color of his skin. He assumes whites are “panicked” when he’s around. That’s racism, and not the responsibility of a random white person to have to hold as a burden.
Both Caucasians and African Americans have attained the highest level of achievement, in every area possible: actors, musicians, business people, Presidents. The identity sustained by some that blacks are continually oppressed isn’t in the data. Poor people have problems getting out of poverty, and the numbers for African Americans are pretty bad. That’s a poverty issue, not a “the white man is oppressing us” issue.
Every non-profit I see or get involved in that helps inner city African Americans is run by white people — mostly white money comes in, and mostly white effort coming from the Burbs. White people give a damn about black people, and you can track this empirically by the millions. I don’t care if the guy above has a chip on his shoulder and gets nervous around white people. That’s his issue to sort out, period.
I hope the Zimmerman verdict helps people like you think twice about continuing the false narrative of white against black cultural warfare. African Americans have killed in self-defense and not been charged. The law is equal, and the after-the-fact charging of Zimmerman is racial profiling. It’s not rooted in reality, and is patently racist. Stop propagating racism, Tom.
@Rides A Pale Horse:
I refer to myself as a “Nothing American”.
It allows me to explain that, naturally, nothing comes ahead of my nation.
“This time we’re doing it right… This time we’re not burning down our communities. This time we’re going out to Whitey’s suburbs and burning down HIS community. We’re going to make Whitey feel the pain.”
And their little fantasy would have all of the white folk standing around waiting to be shot. While they walk down the street, guns blazing, every bullet finding a cracker.
No, we won’t be behind cover, firing on them as they showboat down the street with their little noisemakers.
I promise…
I love the narrative from the left… Trayvon was just an innocent little boy, skipping home with his candy and iced tea, when the big, bad racist gunned him down for no reason.
Completely ignoring the testimony from his girlfriend, that he had made it to the backdoor of his house when he decided to backtrack and beat up on the cracker.
At that point, George wasn’t hunting him, he was hunting George.
Found him, too. Attacked him, even.
Was immediately awarded the coveted Darwin award.
@Aqua:
I respectfully disagree that that’s his point. I think he’s actually acknowledging that GZ’s response to TM’s race is actually quite commonplace in America, and not necessarily indicative of active racism. But if we can’t acknowledge the simple fact that black American male’s are viewed through a different lens than American whites or females, and that this places them in a precarious situation of being inherently suspicious AND responsible for defusing the suspicion regardless of whether it’s warranted, then we’re learning nothing from this. I’ve seen students on the bus dressed just like TM who put their hand in their backpack and pull out Plato’s Republic, or “The Economist”. People see the hoodie first, almost always.The parents of black males have every right to be scared shitless about their plight, the fact that their children can be placed in a situation where they have no room for error, or they’re dead. And if that happens, they way they dress, or any type of trouble in their past, will be drudged up to prove they had it coming.
GZ’s failure – one of many of his failures that night – was not acknowledging this reality before assuming the responsibility as armed neighborhood watchman. My opinion, is that Zimmerman likely thought that any confrontation he would find himself in would be unambiguous. He would catch a criminal in the act of committing a crime, and and he would engage this person. He seems to not have considered a more ambiguous set of circumstances, where he might see someone who appeared suspicious, but was not actually engaged in a crime. We are really doing our law enforcement a huge disservice if we don’t acknowledge that they handle situations like this every day without anyone dying. GZ was not a trained law enforcement officer, after all. GZ wasn’t defending himself against a home invader. GZ wasn’t defending himself from a car jacker. GZ was actively seeking a confrontation: that was the entire point of why he was out that night, to stop a criminal. So I thnk we should expect a lot more from a person who puts himself into that situation. And I think we should expect a lot more from the laws of the State of Florida, or any state. There’s something wrong with a law that gives an armed individual that much latitude to make poor decisions and errors of judgement that result in the death of someone else who wasn’t breaking the law.
@Tom:
Your article is simply a prime example of the type of person Frederick Douglas talked about; just another carpetbagger who makes his living off the problems of black people. He keeps repeating how George Zimmerman is “white” although GM is just as white as our current president, since he is 1/2 white, 3/8th Hispanic and 1/8th black. George Zimmerman is just as much a minority as is Barack Obama, Jr. Obama is also, according to the new standards, a white black (or black white).
Pure poverty pimp hyperbole. I present you a different scenario: a 50 year old white woman is riding an empty subway car late at night on her way home from work. Two young male adults enter the car; one is in clean, pressed khakis and a polo shirt. The other, wearing baggy pants with 6″ of his boxer shorts showing, tattoos all up and down his neck and arms, gold rings in his ears and on every finger. The neat and clean young man is black, the gangbanger is white. Does any rational thinking person think that 50 year old white lady would prefer the gangbanger sit next to her on that subway car? Will that woman be guilty of profiling? Certainly, but not “racial” profiling, but behavioral profiling, something police departments do every day of the week.
So the proverty pimps will play on the race card, declaring there was no justice for Trayvon. They will advocate riots, and demand the federal government get involved. But where were they on the last trial “of the century” when a black man was accused of the brutal slaughter of two white people? And when O.J. Simpson was found innocent of the slaughter of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, where was the rallies held by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson demanding justice for Nicole and Ron; where were the riots, the burning of cars, the throwing of bricks into store windows?
In 2007, two young adults, one just 4 years older than Trayvon Martin and the other 6 years older, were raped, tortured and murdered. Those two young adults, minding their own business as it was claimed Trayvon Martin was doing, were white and the five people that murdered them were black. Did Jesse and Al hold rallies demanding justice for Channon Christian and Christopher Newsome? And have the poverty pimps ever apologized for their actions in the Duke La Cross case considering that the woman Jesse Jackson said he would pay for her college education, is currently sitting in jail for killing her boyfriend?
The Zimmerman case was not about race, no matter how much the author of that piece of trash wants to make it. But when there is a chance to earn a buck from promoting racial division in this country, you can bet Jesse and Al are on the job because fools like you will buy into the falsehood.
@Tom:
You seem to subscribe to the mind control police. If that is the case, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Toure, Louis Farrakhan and every one the of the New Black Panthers need to be locked up, without the possibility of ever being released into the public again.
@Nathan Blue:
Nathan, my opinion is that this tragedy actually belies your observation completely. This ‘get over it’ attitude flies in the face of reality. I keep hearing there was no racial profiling, only behavioral profiling. Okay, would a preppy, white kid doing the exact same thing as TM that night have aroused equal suspicion? “These Izod polo-wearing kids always get away with it!” I find it highly, highly unlikely. Once we admit race likely played a part in GZ’s judgements that night, then Cord Jeffferson’s observations become easier to understand. Black men carry a stigma of suspicion that has a statistical impact on their safety, as TM discovered. This stigma isn’t GZ’s fault, just like it wasn’t TM’s fault, but this is the reality, and it should be addressed, not brushed aside.
@Nathan Blue:
I agree with the goal, but ignoring reality and pretending we’ve achieved it, and that the dilemma faced by black parents isn’t real, doesn’t help get us there.
@Tom:
Of course you find it highly unlikely. It doesn’t fit the racist narrative you want to build.
But I suggest to you that if “preppy, white kids” had been breaking into homes in that complex, and a “preppy, white kid” fit the m.o. of the perps, he would have been profiled on his behavior in the same way. But to admit that would destroy your whole “Trayvon was killed because he was black” meme.
Cord Jefferson is simply another proverty pimp trying to make a name for himself. Perhaps he fancies himself heir apparent to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.
@Tom:
I would suggest to you that Darryl Green’s parents had much more to fear than anything done by a “creepy assed cracker.”
@Tom: And pretending we’ve not done more than we have is the issue. You’re holding onto something that isn’t real. As I said, poverty is the issue now, not race. And bad decisions are bad decisions — you can’t give one race more allowance than another. That’s called racism.
What you’ve ignored is the large contingent of people who do NOT see the goal of equality as how I described it. They only see one race-offense after another an have no goal other than the perpetuity of their crusade. It will never end — they will find racist acts when there are none (like the Zimmerman case).
TOM
keep saying that TRAYVON was unarmed, an edged of a concrete slab really?
stop saying that lie, it’s not helping you with your friend also.
he punch him on his nose broke his nose the other fall from the push and
TRAYVON SAW THE CONCRETE EDGE AND DECIDE TO GRAB HIS HEAD
AND SAID YOU GONNA DIE TONIGHT, HE WAS SURE HE COULD BREAK HIS HEAD BY BASHING ON AND ON AND ON AND ON MULTIPLE TIME,
HE WAS UNARMED? REALLY
@Tom:
That would be a valid argument. I might not completely agree with it, but valid nonetheless. However, the opinion piece you posted starts off like this:
No matter what comes next, the introductory sentence lays the groundwork for many to disregard the remaining prose.
Over at Twitter there is a whole lot of racial hatred against whites by blacks over the Zimmerman case.
Odd, because whites had nothing to do with the act.
It was an Hispanic versus a black.
Only a few early reports falsely claimed Zimmerman was white.
Gee, from his name he might even have been Jewish!
His dad shares Bob Dylan’s real name, after all.
But even after it turned out that wasn’t an accurate description of George Z., he was STILL being called a new thing: a white Hispanic.
As recently as during deliberations the NYTimes used that.
This whole thing is one false narrative layered over another one.
I turn on the news and see one black woman after another who believe Zimmerman killed a poor boy who was simply walking home after going to the store.
Amazing ignorance.
And the media feeds it.
Nan G
that’s why I told TOM to shut up,
he kept inflaming the blacks uninformed ,
WITH HIS COMMENTS ON UNARMED KID,
In Oakland, CA., ANSWER.org (leftist) organized a march that devolved into window smashing, fire setting, police car attacking and tagging.
Notably the unionized (leftist) police could not manage to arrest anyone!
Look at that as a pattern in the future.
The police are NOT going to protect your property or your life.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23657590/protesters-san-francisco-oakland-gather-denounce-zimmerman-verdict
LOOK at those signs.
http://www.answercoalition.org/ this is where those signs came from.
ANSWER is an American communist organization pretending to be anti-imperialist.
ANSWER characterizes itself as anti-imperialist, and its steering committee consists of socialists, civil rights advocates, and left-wing or progressive organizations from the Muslim, Arab, Palestinian, Filipino, Haitian, and Latin American communities. Many of ANSWER’s lead organizers had ties to the International Action Center, and Workers World Party at the time of ANSWER’s founding.
See #8 at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080311064711/http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2527
The people marching who were handed these signs are dupes, useful idiots and expendable.
@Aqua:
There’s no doubt that the essay is raw and angry. I still thought it was worth sharing as it relates to Wordsmith’s query above. Thanks for be open-minded enough to read it.
@Nan G:
In order to make race a factor in this case, the left, along with the lapdog press, had to downplay George Zimmerman’s own ethnicity. He was no longer a Hispanic, and a minority, he was either “white” or “white Hispanic.” This could prove to be a big mistake. It showed that no matter who you are, no matter what your ethnicity or color, being black trumps all.
If I were a Hispanic running against a black in any political race, I would be asking Hispanics “Are you a “white” Hispanic and therefore not considered a minority? If you are Hispanic, victimized by a black, will your ethnicity be diminished to promote the agenda of Al Sharpton?”
We are told by the left that we must have immigration “reform” because a) it is the “civil rights” issue of the decade and b) it is the “moral” thing to do, indicating that any opposition to legalizing 11 million lawbreakers is nothing more than racism. But Hispanics are not stupid. They know that they just got kicked to the back of the bus in the name of “racial” justice for Trayvon and that being black, according to the race hustlers, trumps being Hispanic.
The left plays a dangerous game here. Hispanics already outnumber blacks as a voting bloc. And groups like the NAACP, et al, run the risk that they alienating themselves out of any power they still hold because Hispanics do not suffer from white guilt. We are on the verge of seeing a cat-scratching fight with one group wanting to remain top dog and the other group saying “Not so fast”
@retire05:
That’s perfectly true in the scenario you’ve given, but it doesn’t change the fact that a black teen, on average, will engender more suspicion of the type TM received than a white one. What seems to underlie many of your posts is this idea that a person like TM brings it upon himself because of his choice of dress, because he doesn’t choose khakis and polos. Or that it’s his parents fault for not ‘raising him right’, for letting him walk outside, dressed like millions of other teens. He can’t change his race, but you expect him to compensate for it in other ways, to signal to all the nice ladies that he’s “not one of the dangerous ones”. Let me ask, if a white man who drive Harleys and wears leather is profiled as a criminal, is he doing something wrong by embracing his freedom to express himself as he sees fit? Whose problem is it, his or the person who stereotypes him? If a white Southern man wears a Lynard Skynrdt t-shirt with a confederate flag, it is his fault if he’s perceived as a racist? Is he now responsible for how other’s perceive him too? Some people preach giving the benefit of the doubt, and embracing American freedom of expression, but only selectively, it seems.
@Nathan Blue:
I don’t think I have. I think I’ve simply described the situation as it exists. You can’t address a problem if you refuse to even see it. Let me ask you this, because it goes to the heart of why many people are upset today. Do you think a black teen is more or less likely to be the object of the suspicion that he’s up to no good than a white teen, all other things being equal?
BEHAVIOR PROFILING THAT’S WHAT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS DOING,
THAT’S WAS HIS JOB IS ALL ABOUT, PREVENT THE BREAK IN
retire05
yes that is a good point, the HISPANICS ARE PROUD AND now realize that the one they vote for is not on their side, he won’t take their interest in any issue, he is for the BLACKS, HE TAKE THEM OUT OF JAIL HE PROTECT THEM NO MATTER HOW CRIMINAL THEY DO
and the SPANISH will get on our side next time, SPECIALLY WITH
TED CRUZ AND MARCO RUBIO. ON OUR SIDE, AND RICK PERRY AND RAND PAUL.
Nan G
imagine they own the WHITE HOUSE and the employees of multiple AGENCIES.YOU JUST PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE AGENDA OF THOSE COMMUNIST UNIONS WITH THE WHITE HOUSE,
WHY DID THEY CROWD THE GOVERNMENT WITH THOSE EMPLOYEES?
BECAUSE IT WOULD BE EASY TO MAKE A TAKE OVER AT THE END OF OBAMA TERM,
THEY WOULD USE THE PUBLIC UNIONIZE EMPLOYEES TO JOIN THEM AS OBAMA ARMY
WHICH HE HAD MENTIONED BEFORE TO FAVOR, THERE THEY ARE,
SOME FELONS WHO HAVE NO OTHER WORK OPTIONS, SOME IN ANY AGENCIES SOME IN SCHOOLS AS TEACHER SOME MUSLIMS TEACHING THEIR INDOCTRINATION , AND ALL OBEDIENT SERVER OF THE OBAMA CAUSE.
PLUS THE ILLEGALS AND THE CLONES.
HOW’S THAT AND THEY BOUGHT LOADS OF AMUNITIONS AND THEY HAVE THE DRONES,
NAN, WHO IS ON THE PEOPLE SIDE?
@Tom:
OK, you want to discount the way black kids, mostly from the inner cities, dress and boil it down to a matter of “choice.” Then let me ask you this; you find yourself broke down on the LA Freeway with a flat tire. Two cars pull over, one with a Hispanic kid, about 17, with tats all up and down his arms and neck, wearing “gangsta” droopy pants and a bandana tied around his forehead, and a black kid, also 17, dressed in an Eagle Scout uniform or even pressed khakis and a polo shirt, and both are around the same size. Are you going to tell me that your first impression would not lead to making a choice in which one you wanted to help you?
Martin was a troubled teen. His Twitter texts show that he got kicked out of his mother’s home and sent to his dad’s because of some trouble at school. Kicking your 17 year old out is a hard decision for any mother, Tom, and I would warrant that Sybrina Fulton now regrets that decision. Troubled kids don’t need to be left on their own to wander the streets at night. They need parental control and most important, guidance. As to his clothes, unless you can show where he had a job that allowed him to purchase his own clothing, I suspect his parents paid for those clothes. There is a word in the English language that all parents should know when it comes to buying clothes that will give a bad impression to the public, which includes members of all races and ethnic groups; “NO.”
Martin was no longer a “child.” He was old enough to join the military, with parental approval. He was at an age where many his age are going off to college in a state not their own and are expected to act as adults. But there is this whole culture in the black community, especially with the youth, of not “acting white.” It has been going on for a long time, and Charles Payne has talked, a number of times, about getting the hell beat out of him in school because he studied, dressed in clean, pressed clothing, and got good grades because he “acted too white” for his fellow black students. But Payne had a smart mom and she knew that the “dress for success” philosophy works.
Oh, I don’t know; maybe we can blame the groups that created the stereotype in the first place, the Banditos and the Hell’s Angels. You want to discount human nature that often relies on first impressions. Sorry, Bubba, ain’t ever gonna happen.
Odd selection on your part considering that many Southern blacks have Confederate battle flag stickers on the windows of their pickups. I saw a lot of them when I was in Mississippi. My guess is you assume all [white] Southerners are racists, no matter what they are wearing.
Most certainly. We all are.
You can embrace American freedom of expression until the cows come home, but you will still be judged by the impression you portray to others. And if you are claiming that you are innocent of having first impressions of people you don’t know, you’re either lying to just stupid.
@Tom:
It’s not as cut and dry as you want to make it. Put that white teen, driving a fancy car and cruising the neighborhoods, with his earrings and gansta clothing, in a black neighborhood and ask the residents what they think he is up to.
@Tom: Your point of view is the real problem. You’re not letting people act for themselves and accept the consequences. You want me to assume that the average white person is fearful of the average black person. That’s racism, not “calling it as it is.”
By the way, I’d be careful with the “scenario” argument style. There are those who will flip that around on you (as I’ve already read), and it’s all based on conjecture, not on real people taking real actions.
It reminds me of The Dark Knight, when the joker plants the ferry bombs and assumes the innocent or the guilty will condemn the other. I trust in the good of people to make the right choice, and don’t agree with condemning people based on the color of their skin, white or black. You’re trying to combat racism by become racist. Doesn’t make sense.
@Nathan Blue:
Of course that’s an absolute distortion, a strawman. I noticed you couldn’t answer my question, by the way. Perhaps you don’t want to deal with an inconvenient statistical truth, that black males die violent deaths at a much higher rate than any other demographic. You don’t have to be curious as to why, but to bulldoze right over it to keep your viewpoint intact is another kind of dishonesty.
One of the multiple fallacies your’re peddling is this concept that because any particular individual isn’t tied to a particular fate, that means that any aggregate observation is moot. That’s like saying that because Frederick Douglass escaped from the South and lived a productive, fruitful life, there was no slavery problem. You essentially expect blacks to ignore factual statistical evidence about their safety because any particular black can mitigate the danger by making “the right choice”, a choice that a white person doesn’t even have to consider. That’s a double standard.
One type of racism is the more passive variety of the person who pretends a problem doesn’t exist, or refuses to acknowledge it, because the status quo favors of pleases him.
@Tom: Judging by the intellectualization defensive posture — big, needless words and all — I’d say I hit a nerve.
I answered your question and you are ignoring my answer. I said that I don’t assume something about what someone is thinking or going to do based on the color of their skin. To clarify (as I seem to have to), I don’t assume a black youth is up to no good because he’s black, and I don’t assume a white person will think a black person is up to no good because they are black . . . because the person is white. Get it yet?
Statics are often used to support what someone wants to believe — in this case, you and your narrative. Any adept analyst does not speak in absolutes, but rather correlations. You are sold on the idea that blacks are still being unconsciously subjugated by whites. That’s your opinion. Don’t invoke a cursory, and fallacious, take on some stats you gleaned from a blog as Gospel. You are racially profiling Zimmerman. You are assuming things about him based on the color of his skin.
If you were really serious about analyzing the data, you’d stop looking like a child on this post and start doing some real research. As I said, it’s about poverty, not race.
Your point of view is outdated and ignorant. In 1993, I would have agreed with you. But now, you’re blathering comes across as bigoted drivel. Time to move on and get a little more life experience before arguing, perhaps?
@Tom: All arguments aside, I’m curious as to what you think about this video posting:
http://floppingaces.net/most_wanted/black-man-explains-anger-over-zimmerman-verdict-hypocrisy-of-black-leaders/
Please don’t take this as some kind of “proof” or “justification” on my part. This guy is just voicing his opinion. I’m curious of yours for it’s own sake — no need to compare it to mine right now.
Concerning mine:
What the man’s testimony means to me is that there is a larger issue here, and blaming it on hidden white racism is actually propagating a cycle of poverty, crime, and violence in the African-American community. Many, many whites are giving time and money to help correct the issues in the black community — that is truth. But they are still outsiders, and change is has to come from within. I’m a big fan of Malcolm X , and agree that some efforts within the black community become undermined when it’s driven by whites. That’s what I see in the Martin case — a drive by whites against their own self-hatred of whites, and pushing a political agenda. The NAACP rides along, not knowing they are getting their cues from the white community. It’s exploitation.
That’s my issue. The outrage should be the continued poverty and violence in black communities. I’d rather put my efforts into helping that issue rather than joining a politically-motivated outcry engineered by greedy politicians and their press.
Look at the PHOTO at the bottom of the Article.
He DRESSES like CHE Guevara.. a KNOWN Terrorist and THUG / Killer
He NAMES HIMSELF.. like an ISLAMIC TERRORIST
He ARMS and EQUIPS himself, like a terrorist and in a threatening manner.
He threatens violence against people he has never personally met.
And he says WE are RACIST, for LOOKING at him “in that way” (like he is a NUT, or TROUBLE, or untrustworthy etc) or THINKING that of him ???? REALLY???? This guy, thinks like GREG here does! BASS ACKWARDS!
@Nathan Blue:
Your condescending, avuncular concern is touching. I find your style of quite interesting as well. You have zero interest or curiosity about the viewpoint of others; you pose questions (while ignoring those posed to you) and if you don’t receive complete agreement, you start throwing around terms like “bigot”. Of course, you also seem to have misplaced the origin of this discussion, way back in the original post (remember that?) and my first comment, where I responded with one man’s response to the verdict, which I feel is fairly representative of a segment of the African American response. I am not African American, I cannot speak for African Americans, or feel how they do about this, but I can try to exercise a little empathy. I think the response I quoted holds merit, although nowhere have I given it a blanket endorsement. Some people (like the original poster) are actually curious about why people feel a certain way. Not you, of course. You’ve grown more agitated comment by comment, as people refuse to co-sign your arrogant, yet strangely vague and factually elusive, instance that you have the word figured out. You even have it down to the year (1993!) apparently, that racism died a quiet death, and now we should all just move along.
I enjoy how you devalue objective data, and then insist it hasn’t been presented. Staggeringly hypocritical, but sort of a win-win strategy for you, huh? If you don’t like the statistical data, you can fall back on your completely unsubstantiated blanket dismissal of statistical, while continuing to maintain that no one has presented an argument backed “by research” (!). Do you mena like the ones you’ve been presenting, where only bigots think race is a factor in society after 1993?
I could list studies and data all day long to bolster the points made above. One common complaint in the wake of the verdict made my African Americans is how they are treated by the American Justice system compared to other races: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/nov/19/can-our-shameful-prisons-be-reformed/?pagination=false
http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/04/15/qje.qjs014.full
You dismiss the idea that people, consciously or unconsciously, take race into account regarding safety and danger
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/37/9/1274.abstract
http://spq.sagepub.com/content/73/1/79.short
You dismiss the fear of black parents that it’s statiscally more dangerous to be a young black male than any other race:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/yv-datasheet-a.pdf
Just the tip of the iceberg. Feel free to dismiss all this data as just fancy numbers that are “used to support what someone wants to believe”. I’ve found that ignoring objective data is typically the recipe for that outcome.
In the case of Zimmerman shooting Martin, more was needlessly made out of the racial aspects of the case than needed to be. And done by the likely, usual suspects, all in an effort for self-aggrandizement, self-promotion, and had nothing to do with any sort of “justice for Trayvon”.
Consider, GZ merely “thought” that Martin was black, when asked that question by the 911 operator. And GZ’s name itself, without actually seeing the man’s face, gives the picture of an affluent white man.
The media twisted the first fact, cutting and mangling the audio so as to change what was actually said. In so doing, it is now near impossible to change that first impression that many blacks across the nation had on hearing NBC’s altered audio, or hearing the second hand accounts from people describing the audio. And what you have is now a group of people who will never actually look at, or listen to, the actual evidence without the preconceived notion that GZ specifically targeted Martin because of race.
As for the second, the name appeared many times in the news media before the face was ever shown. That likely was not part of the manipulation by the media, but it certainly helped in that the initial reports, and thus the second hand accounts given to others, was of an affluent white man specifically targeting a black teenager based on nothing more than the color of TM’s skin.
GZ was guilty of something that night. He was guilty of being stupid enough to get out of his car and attempt to follow TM, despite being told not to.
However, that stupidity doesn’t deserve the honor of being attacked and getting beat up. And that is the point that none of the racist, black leaders, the prosecutor herself, the media, nor the thousands who’ve protested in support of TM will ever acknowledge.
A case that should be discussed only in terms of the self-defense law and it’s application in situations quickly and purposefully devolved into one mainly about race and race relations, without any proof or factual evidence that that was the case at all.
that guy is a terrorist and should be arrested on the spot for saying that, TRAYVON said
you will die, and he proceed to do it,
those are human turn mad, TRAYVON WAS THROWN OUT OF HIS SCHOOL AND HE WAS MAD FROM IS ARRIVAL TO HIS ATTACK, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN could have never thought that GUARDIAN job was so dangerous,
and he did not demand IMMUNITY, AND THEY FAIL TO GIVE HIM IMMUNITY,
THERE IS WHERE IT FAIL TO PROTECT HIM, A HUGE MISTAKE THIS WAS.
BECAUSE HE HAD TO SPEND LONG TIME IN PRISON BEING HARASS BY THE INMATES, WHERE IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENNED,
NOW OBAMA IS NOT SATISFIED HE WANT BLOOD,
ANOTHER MADMAN AGAINST THE WHITE,
WHO WAS NOT WILLING TO BE KILLED.
Nathan Blue
oh my that’s terrible, are you all that TOM SAID, HE IS PROBING EVERY ONE
WHO DARE CONTREDICT HIM LIKE SOME OTHER IGNORANT WE SEE VISITING, IT WAS YOUR TURN, YOU MADE IT HAPPEN AND YOU’RE GUILTY,
BYE
@Tom: I couldn’t read any more of your . . . um, rebuttal after reading the word “avuncular”.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, and I’ll have to admit that I find your point of view horribly ignorant and troubling. You’re here looking for a fight, not helping society at large come to a consensus. Sorry if you thought you smelled blood in the water, warranting your deluge of statistical “facts”. As I’ve said, I don’t find your abilities to analyze data skillful enough to engage in thoughtful dialogue. If I had time, and thought you were worth it, I’d show you a larger set of data that includes yours, and how a sane and objective look would come to better conclusion of what to do, beyond saying “Zimmerman is half white, so he’s racist!” You’re beating a dead horse . . . skeleton, really. You have a sociopolitical hook in your mouth and you expect me to take you seriously.
It’s well documented that the statistics for African-Americans and Latinos are much worst than those for Caucasians and Asians-Americans. You can cherry pick any study you need to “prove” a point. Real objectivity (which is escaping you) requires some maturity, not proof-texting a study and saying “ha! you can’t argue with this!” Really? Perhaps some more education in critical thinking is in order.
So it is a win-win for me, because I stopped discussing this a few posts back in favor of informing you that you’re off base, as a courtesy to you. Normally, I just ignore ignorance. But the damage being done to the black community and the white community by second-rate analysts who have already made up their minds is starting to dissolve the diversity of culture and strength of spirit in the US.
Your end is what concerns me — I’m not sure you have one beyond mindlessly “beating” those you’ve labeled as enemies.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Bees, it comes with the territory I guess. Can’t say I have all the answers, but I serious question the direction that some in the government and culture are trying to bulldoze people into.
@Nathan Blue:
Are you really? It seems like what you’re really interested in is labeling me “ignorant” and a “racist”. It’s tough to win with a person like you. You call me ignorant, then ask for the basis of what I’m presenting, and then refuse to read it, and call me ignorant again. Do you really think that’s a winning debate strategy? There are people who are truly interested in how other people think, and there are people who are only interested in how they themselves think and consider all other viewpoints annoying static. You fall into a third category, that of a person who feigns interest in the opinions of others, but just barely, because you believe it will maximize your opportunities to pontificate. So forgive me if I seem skeptical.
If someone claimed there was “hidden white racism” afoot, I certainly missed it. You seem to be attributing causes to thing that I’ve merely pointing out the existence of. Example: I point out the fact that young black men die violent deaths at a much higher rate than other races. That’s a simple fact. Your rebuttal is, no, it’s really about poverty, not race. Okay, where did I say it wasn’t, at least in part, about poverty? But even if you’re correct, that doesn’t change the statistical racial aspect. It doesn’t make it less important to a black parent. But you would prefer that a fact like this not be discussed, because it’s inconveniently complicated where you prefer a much simpler explanation. The truth is, rather than debate a fact, you’d prefer to censure it. You don’t believe in an open discussion when it runs counter to the political narrative you’re peddling.
At the most basic level, you seem to be confusing racism and race. You’re so caught up in this game of being defensive about perceived claims of racism, and then lobbing bombs of your own, that you’ve crossed into a fringe position of denying that a person’s race can have any impact upon him or her whatsoever. It’s a ridiculous notion to expect black parents to ignore troubling statistical pattens that impact their children because they offend your sense of a racism free nation.
@Tom
Funny your elipses chopped-out this part of your linked, highly racist editorial:
Kinda like what Trayvon lacked the self-control to stop himself from doing, eh?
@Tom:
I assume it is safe to say you are referring to “white” racism toward blacks.
So how about this:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/175260/white-supremacy-acquits-george-zimmerman
Racist views are based, Tom, on one’s attitude of superiority against someone of another race.
That in itself, could be considered “racist.” Are the concerns of black parents different than those of white parents, or Asian parents or Hispanic parents?
And the troubling statistical pattern is that their black children have a greater chance of being murdered by another black than by a Hispanic, an Asian or a white. You want to ignore the FBI stats that show black on white crime is committed in greater numbers than white on black crime and that black on black crime is the greatest threat to black children.
@retire05:
You’re either operating at a very low cognitive level, or you think you’re cleverly twisting what I’ve written. It’s not clever however to write drivel sentences that are riddled with logical fallacies.
Irrelevant conclusion. I’m clearly discussing the conversation contained in this thread.
False equivalence. I never wrote that the concerns of white/Asian/Hispanic parents are different. I wrote that it is logical for black parents to react to data that affects black children.
Argument from fallacy. I never made any statement of the sort.
@ThunderGod:
I’m glad you read the article. Do you really think there’s something “funny” about the fact I edited down an article that I also provided a link for, so that all were free to read it in its entirety (like you did)?
@Tom
I might have typed that you had linked to a “disengenuous, obfuscating pile of elephant feces of a Racist Tirade that you could not even begin to fully understand,” but I was being polite so as to not hurt your feelings.
My main point was that the author of the whining drivel is not only an unrepentant racist piece of garbage, he also has those same violent impulses that caused Trayvon to find his “limit.” And that fact whizzed right over your blunted, little head. 😉
@ThunderGod:
I appreciate your frankness, and your taking the time to respond. So what causes these “violent impulses”? Why would you state that this man and TM both have them? Are they inherent or learned? Please elaborate.
@Tom: Glad you finally understand there is more to reality than a simple dichotomous perspective of things, even if you can’t grasp it quite yet.
The above is you. I’d quit if I were you. You are starting to appear truly stupid.
@Nathan Blue:
How original. At least you quote quality copy, even if you can’t write it. I guess I’ll quit now in the face of your overwhelmingly vague insistence on something, and the fact that I’m an ignorant racist. Well done. Your trophy’s in the mail.