“TANSTAAFL”
There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
The first place I read that was in one of Robert Heinlein’s novels.
Nothing is free.
We can not create energy; we can only convert it from one form to another.
Every conversion of energy from one form to another takes energy leaving you less energy than you had when you started.
Hydroelectric: water flowing downhill, courtesy of gravity, has kinetic energy (mass in motion) which turns a turbine, which turns an electric generator. A “generator” is not an accurate name for what happens. An electric “generator” converts energy form mechanical to electrical; therefore it is a “converter” and it does not generate anything. This conversation of energy will heat the “generator” causing a loss of energy to heat. This heat loss comes from friction in the generator’s bearings, from hysteresis loss in the generator’s core, and the resistance of the conducting windings of the generator. Energy will also be lost in the resistance of the conducting cables that distribute this electricity.
Coal fired plants: coal is burned to heat water to turn it into steam, that steam is used to turn turbines, which drive generators to convert that mechanical motion to electricity. The same losses apply, plus some heat is lost up the chimney, and some heat is lost in the friction of the bearings in the turbine.
Natural gas: natural gas is burned to drive turbines, which drive generators to convert mechanical motion to electricity. The same losses apply, plus some heat is lost up the chimney, and some heat is lost in the friction in the bearings of the turbine.
Nuclear: heat from radioactive decay is used to heat water for steam, which drives a turbine, which drives a generator to provide electricity. The same losses apply as above.
Conversions: (remember each conversion has losses, every time you convert energy from one form to another, you lose energy, and you will not get out what you put in)
Hydroelectric: mechanical to electrical, one conversion.
Coal: coal to steam to mechanical to electrical, three conversions.
Natural gas: gas to mechanical to electrical, two conversions.
Nuclear: radioactive material to heat to steam to mechanical to electrical, four conversions.
Solar: sun to direct current, to alternating current, two conversions.
Wind: wind to alternating current, one conversion.
My Ford F150: gas to mechanical, one conversion.
Looks like the best choices would be hydroelectric, wind, and my Ford F150.
(The Ecotards oppose all except wind and solar)
Wind generators only work when the wind blows; if it is blowing too hard the wind generator is turned off. Wind generators take thirty to fifty years to recover the costs of construction and installation, depending on the wind, at which time it will have to be replaced. You will not break even; you will lose money on wind power.
Solar: solar panels will not last long enough to reach the break even point. Solar panels will not pay for themselves.
The only justifiable use for wind or solar power is in a remote area where conventional power is not available. Even then you would be better served by hydroelectric power, if running water is available.
My Ford F150 is twenty one years old, still works, and should last another twenty years.
I can drive it 248,928 miles for the cost of a Chevrolet Volt. I can drive it 109,285 miles for the cost of the Volt’s replacement battery. The Volt’s battery weights 400 pounds; that equals 65.57 gallons of gasoline which will take my F150 1,114.69 miles at which point I will not be carrying a 400 pound weight. The Volt has to be charged every forty miles, which takes hours. The electricity to charge this Ecotrard vehicle comes from coal, gas, hydro, or nuclear electric plants through the power grid. The only thing the Volt can do is make some Ecotard feel good. It actually adds several conversions of energy to the cycle. IE: after the grid; battery charger (which has losses) to a battery (which can not give back what it takes) to a DC motor (which has losses). When the battery is discharged a gasoline motor takes over to make DC current to drive the DC motors. The discharged battery still weights 400 pounds which this supplemental motor has to carry. (WOW that is what you could call efficiency, if you were obama or some other idiot).
There were electric cars why back when they were called “horseless carriages”, they were not practical then and they are not practical now.
You can not ignore the laws of physics. You must take into account the energy density of matter when choosing your source of energy and the safety of storing that energy.
Propane or compressed natural gas requires a heavy pressurized storage tank.
Hydrogen causes metal to become brittle and is very hard to store and control.
Gasoline can be stored in a simple plastic bottle and has more energy per volume than either of those.
Gasoline burns; hydrogen explodes.
The safest energy source for automobiles is gasoline or diesel, easy to store and control.
The issue of waste.
Hydroelectric does not have waste products.
Coal, natural gas, diesel, and gasoline, release co2 which plants love and need more of.
Wind generators consume a lot of energy and materials in their manufacture and they kill lots of birds; you could say that their waste is dead birds. But there is also the tailings from the mines that provide the various ores that go into the materials that make the blades, transmission, turbine, and electronic controls for the wind “generator”, once again a “generator” converts energy from one form to another, it does not generate anything. Did you know that when the wind does not blow, wind generators use electricity from the grid to turn the blades? (Something about flat spots on their bearings) Wind farms take room; each wind generator needs an area to itself, no other wind generator within a certain distance. A wind farm capable of supplying the Oklahoma City metro area would be the size of the OKC metro area and you would still need a coal, gas, or nuclear power plant for the times when the wind does not blow, or when it blows too hard; wind generators are shut down in winds over a certain speed. In Oklahoma the wind blows too hard very often. A normal Oklahoma wind gust could bring down a wind generator; that would be a very expensive “waste”.
Wind generators are incredibly noisy and the flickering shadows can drive you nuts. Do not support wind generators until you have spent at least 24 hours within 100 feet of one when the wind is blowing and the blades are turning. Also make very sure that you live on the southwest side of a wind farm so the debris from that wind farm carried by a tornado will not fall on you. Wind generators often stand 300 feet tall and have 200 foot blades, which will make for some very serious debris.
Solar panels work when the sun shines, less than half the day (if it is not cloudy). Their waste is the tailings from the mines that provide the various ores that go into the materials that make the panels and the shaded ground where nothing grows, well, OK, maybe mushrooms, or mold, or things that go bump in the night.
Nuclear does not have to have waste, we can build plants that reprocess and reuse their waste again and again until what is left is not hazardous. A lot of nuclear “waste” is used for medicine. Krypton for example can be used to make light bulbs. Radiation can be used to sterilize food that will store without refrigeration indefinitely; have you ever heard of MRE’s; that stands for “Meals Ready To Eat”, these MRE’s feed the military in the field and have for decades. You can treat milk with this process and it will store without refrigeration for years and still be nutritious. Any food could be stored this way; then people without electricity could have food that does not perish.
Alternative energy has nothing to do with energy independence.
We use oil for transportation, aspirin, and about 6,000 other products.
NO amount of alternative energy will affect that.
In case you missed that, NO amount of energy used to provide electricity will affect our need for oil.
For a parting note: do not support solar, wind, ethanol, or democrats until you have done the math. Anyone who cannot do math is two or three notches below human.
And just a little rant: the consequences of foreign oil dependency include a lack of security and a high cost of everything.
Oh, a brief note about ethanol. It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get back out of that gallon. The only justifiable use of ethanol is in a glass with ice.
I think now I will consume some (amber colored) ethanol.
As you call me, an Ecotard, I oppose wind farms.
Here in Maine, some assnozzle former governor is blowing up mountains to place turbine farms. Some that are already in operation have been net loss producers. They actually suck energy from the grid.
One, in Saco Maine, actually was costing the ratepayers almost $500,000 annually.
True green will be finding a way to incorporate solar on homes.
Kudos to the Heinlein mention, even if he was a raging liberal at heart, he still could see that something for nothing was a pipe dream- and you are right in that nothing, but NOTHING gives us the bang for the buck that fossil fuels give us.
I would be all for a hydrogen car, or whatever, but we CANNOT afford to hamstring ourselves by depriving us of what works, while waiting around to see what else MIGHT work.
Kinda like buying a lottery ticket, and then charging a bunch of stuff, believing that the lottery ticket WILL pay off. Pipedreams-
We need to drill here, drill now, and get our own energy and jobs HERE, rather than be “Brazil’s best customer”.
If we drill here, its like paying wholesale, rather than retail.
Oh, and as an aside- you are right in the bird kill of wind generators- approx. 40,000 birds are killed annually by these turbines, as they migrate south- reminds me of the genetically modified corn that was killing all the Monarch butterflies, because the butterflies consume the corn nectar in their flight south, and when it was modified, it became a poison.
If you know anything about physics, the words “renewable energy” is crap as well. You can regrow the tree you just burned, but you cannot renew the burnt tree.
The liberals are masters at semantic infiltration, when it comes to word play.
Interesting way of looking at these energy comparisons.
A few years back we were thinking of adding many solar panels to our 27 condos since we were re-roofing anyway.
An honest solar panel business owner showed us that our shoreline property, even though it is technically in ”sunny southern California,” did not get enough sunny days for the panels to EVER pay for themselves.
Ever since then I have been more aware of how much cloud cover we actually have …. a whole lot, almost every day.
I am so glad we didn’t sink all that cash into that white elephant.
I have a neighbor who has wind chimes.
They are annoying.
But they make a great point.
Even right on the beach, with the sea breeze, they are not moving every day, or much of any day.
What a waste wind power is, too.
Thanks Al, that was a knockout punch delivered by a fast, powerful overhand right. You have not written an article: you have written an outline for a popular and much needed book. I suggest you get to the job at hand before another man of science uses your outline. If you want rudimentary editing help with editing send me a transcript. You can publish on line with Smashwords for free with an 85% retail cost coming back to you as profit. You would need a fine tuning editor after I give it a work over, but it would be close to correct when I finished. This is an important contribution you have to offer, please weigh the possibility carefully. I work fairly fast, so I am the least of your problems.
Physics was my favorite science discipline in school and I still use the knowledge today.
I find it ironic that all this new energy still relies heavily on the steam engine, a technology that is 150 years old. An idea for a chapter in your book. Let’er buck, Al.
Al– Great article! Bravo!
If anyone wants to see just how much “alternative energy” contributes to the total energy used in America, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory put together a Flowchart. Read it and laugh…
Thanks Al!. I second Skookum’s suggestion, although you should expect to have your work demogogued to hell by the eco-crowd.
Skookum
High praise indeed!
I confess I cut the post down. You are right about it being an outline; I have a lot more to say about almost every sentence.
I will take you up on your offer; expect a manuscript about the time you get back from OT2’s.
John
Thank you very much.
johngalt
Thank you.
I have never been PC. I survived over twenty years in the military; the eco-crowd is, as the Aussies say, “no worries”.
@Al Cooper:
That’s good to hear. You will have a ready audience for your work from the crowd here at FA.
I thought I’d offer a somewhat contrarian POV on this issue. First of all, I think that Al’s post is an excellent one,and agree wholeheartedly that _large_ alternative energy projects (wind and solar) are generally boondoggles.
However…I have a house in New Mexico (with the advantage of very reliable solar power) which is way off in the boondocks wherein the power company wanted to charge me $45,000 to run power lines to the house.
Not really being desirous of supporting those guys, I looked into solar and wind. I now have solar panels and a nice little Bergey windmill which keep my batteries full and support a very normal lifestyle without problems. I never pay power bills, and my power is more reliable than the folks’ who live (relatively) near to me on the grid. The net cost to me was slightly less than the amount it would have cost to run the power lines.
In MY admittedly isolated instance, alternative power works a treat. I often wonder if individuals were encouraged to go off the grid (don’t ask me how they should be encouraged…I have little clue) that a lot of the infrastructure cost of power generation and delivery would diminish. Of course it requires making the choice to be independent and to adjust your lifestyle to that independence. I suspect that would be attractive to most readers of Flopping Aces, however.
Yes, I did use whatever mining and whatever was used to make my panels and windmill…and batteries, but I now impact no one. Oh, and for my little 1KW windmill, I have yet (in 5 years) to see a single dead bird. Not that they don’t get killed…they may, but if they do, the scavengers get them before I see them.
The windmill does make noise, but for those of us who collect “free” power from the windmill we put up ourselves…it’s a happy little noise.
Large scale Alternative Energy IS Crap. But, as a local option, if exercised, it can be very successful on the Micro level.
Jim
Nice rant….. but to pick a nit, both gasoline and hydrogen will explode. After all, that’s how your f-150 uses the gas. Electric cars will be practical when the power storage problem is solved, or the price of fuel cells comes down from the stratosphere. There are some ways of storing hydrogen in the works that don’t involve high pressure or cryrogenics.
BTW, I’ve taken to calling the Toyota Prius the “Pious” because the car is more about the smug religious attitude of the driver than about “greenness”. Also, one thing about hybrids that *does* make sense is regenerative breaking. Instead of all the kinetic energy of motion going into heating your brake shoes, they can recover some fraction of it to recharge the batteries.
tarpon
You are very right.
I have tried to tell my acquaintances, (I can not call them friends as I refuse to associate with them) these things, but it like talking to the cat; he just licks his paws and demands food.
@jvcyclist:
I like the idea. One thing about your story, as compared to that of subsidized alt. energy ventures: You made a choice, individually, to do what was in the best interest for yourself. You weren’t forced, by gun or law, to give up your own wealth to finance someone else’s boondoggle. And I expect, based off your story, that if you had seen your individual venture fail, that you wouldn’t have blamed anyone but yourself.
Alt. energy sources have their place, on the grid and for personal use, but it certainly isn’t as a forced alternative to the current energy sources, and certainly not as a subsidized industry. Let them make it on their own, by their own merits, and if successful, people will accept them more readily. Freedom of choice is important, and in my opinion, one of the most important of American ideas. Another is freedom to fail, and acceptance of one’s own responsibility in that regard. Both of those go hand in hand.
jvcyclist
I agree, for your needs wind/solar makes sense.
Your windmill “generator” does not have two hundred foot blades.
The windmill blades I am referring to are 100 to 200 feet long and travel at speeds in excess of three hundred miles per hour; birds do not have a chance.
You are in a remote area and wind or solar make sense for you.
If you live in downtown Anycity, USA wind or solar DO not make sense.
I think we are on the same page.
@johngalt: Mostly yes to your supposition. There is “federal support” for my own alternative energy efforts in the guise of a 30% tax credit. On the other hand, since I am NOT a demoncrat, I don’t really think that allowing me to keep some of my own money is really a handout, ya know?
Of course, if it doesn’t work out, it’s on me to both accept and figure out a solution, and of course we’ve had some hitches in our get-along as we progressed on this.
As far as being forced by gun or law? I’m 40 miles from Santa Fe at the end of a very bad road. We pump our own water (with our own electricity) live in a house made from adobe bricks which we made on our own land…the only thing that ties us to anything is a single phone line (yeah, with DSL…hell, I’m not a total anarchist) which would be easy to cut on MY end. I am, like many on this group, a vet who has seen the elephant and we are damned well armed. I’d like to see ’em try.
Thanks for your comments and we are absolutely on the same page, I think.
Jim
@ Al Cooper. Of course wrt anyneighborhood in anytown. And yeah, I know about the big wind gennies…they are dangerous to birds and bats. We’re a low lower impact.
I agree completely with your original rant. I just think that there is a place for micro alternatives…
Jim
What really kills me is the “Children Of The Corn” and their ethanol subsidies. The results are rising food prices, food shortages, food riots, and finally mass starvation. Without the taxpayer and consumer, ethanol production for fuel, is a dead horse!
oil guy from alberta
This is a subject I have much to say about.
You do not have to wait for the book.
It is coming up soon as a post.
PS: I like your comments.
Not a problem, Al, because I really like your article.
Here’s another pet peeve. It takes 1 barrel of energy(natural gas) to produce 2 barrels of bitumin oil. The province and the 8 major oil companies in Fort MacMurray want a Candu nuclear facility to economize energy input dollars by 300%. The area has the money, the engineering, cooling water,geological stability, space, privacy, atomic fuel availabily, and disposal sites, to make this site a sure fire winner. The ecotards and some politicians have made this into a political liability. Keep the natural gas for transportation and industrial products. It makes so much sense that the idiots had to turn it into nonsense.
One could write a book on the hazards of Hydrogen. I used to work with that stuff at Kennedy Space Center, and the list of dangers is long. Briefly:
Great Post Al. I second Skookum! Too bad the loony left will knock your factual analysis rather than actually read it though.
I have built one large log house and many trap cabins in Northern Canada. I ran the expensive power lines to the house. In the early 80’s, it was $1500 a pole: I am sure it is more now. None of the cabins had power; although, I had an occasional hunter ask if he would be able to plug in his cell phone. FOMHL (Fall Off My Horse Laughing) I used the little generators, both gas and electric. They work great for reading and skinning in a 20 x 20 foot cabin. Usually, I used the coal oil lantern and kept the wicks trimmed. I usually arranged running water, run to the creek and run back. Works better than you might think and your waist line stays trimmer. This wasn’t all that long ago. All things considered, using the gray light of day coming through a window and opening the door to improve the lighting isn’t all that bad if you have the right attitude.
Al don’t forget the new technology of steam that powered locomotives and ships long before the Civil War. If I remember correctly it is actually late 18th Century technology. I’m sorry, it just seems so funny to have most of our “new” technology based on 200 year old science. Obammy would be proud to know about that I’ll bet.
I prefer diesel for my cars and trucks, it doesn’t explode except for extreme cases. I think it is much safer, but a bargain hunter like me who only buys workhorse trucks and German luxury cars can’t always demand diesel in a used car. I have one, an 85 300 D, I call it my Panzer, it can plow through snow until there is so much flowing over the hood and windshield I can no longer see the road. Now that is technology like the steam engine, hard to beat.
Good Post. I have looked at installing solar panels and wind machines, but there is no reasonable pay back. The $15 million solar installation at the Air Force Academy (Used stimulus dollars) is slated to save about $300,000 per year in electrical power. That equates to 45 years for the solar array to break even if there are no repairs. Unfortunately, the live span of a solar array is 20-25 years!
Great post and discussion. One of the things the renewables fans hide from the discussion is the three uses of energy here in the US: electricity, heating, transportation. They play around with the electricity part of the equation and mostly ignore the other two.
One of the things we are blessed with here in the US is vast quantities coal. Coal (and natural gas, for that matter) can be converted into synthetic diesel (or any other hydrocarbon chain, for that matter) via the Fischer-Tropsch process that we brought back from the Germans after WWII. Diesel is a range of molecule sizes. There is a sweet spot that you can hit in the production of the molecule that also covers Jet-A, AvGas, JP-8, kerosine and RP-1 (for you rocketeers). Additionally, there is a century of infrastructure in place to handle liquid fuels for vehicles that would have to be replaced for CNG, LNG, hydrogen or electric cars. And it costs money to replace infrastructure. Finally, the new diesel engines are really powerful, robust and clean. I have come to believe that synthetic diesel will be the preferred liquid fuel of the future, and based on what we know of coal deposits here in the US, we can use it for half a millenia, if not longer.
Natural gas (or synthetic natural gas) would be a great fit for the heating part of the energy equation.
As always, it is best to allow the marketplace to make the decisions rather than the social engineers operating inside DC. Cheers –
Al, Skookum is the best writer I know. He has given me a lot of help with my writing and I plan to put out a reader post when I get home in a couple days. I could not be more grateful to him. Its quite an honor.
Very informative. Thank you.
Follow the money. The propaganda media that are pushing global warming and going green are owned by companies who would profit from all the solar panels, wind generators, nuclear power, etc. They are just pushing their own products. If the oil companies owned the media they would be pushing oil uses.
FYI on the bird kill: cars, trucks, trains, cats, dogs, hawks etc. kill a hell of lot more birds than wind farms. Just sayin..
Sooner or later, people will come around.
America’s Solar Energy Potential
MR, what is the ratio of wind turbines compared to cars, trucks, cats, dogs, hawks, etc. Comparatively speaking, the wind turbines are holding their own in the kill department. “Just Sayin”
The solar potential is massive as is the geo thermal potential, but promoting it ahead of technology and market value is a fool’s game that bankrupts those who are stupid enough to believe in myths. The Free Market and the profit motive coupled with technology will sort this problem out soon enough: driving Obama cars, installing solar panels that will never recoup their cost, and using steam power, a two hundred year old technology cutting edge science is laughable and is about as funny as Obama’s knowledge of science and business.
Common sense dumbass. Millions of vehicles on the road at roughly the same height that birds fly=dead birds. Few birds fly at the height of the turbines=less bird kills. Always hated the bird kill argument.
@Skookum, #32:
New technology generally doesn’t appear and advance until there’s a commitment to projects that require it.
We didn’t get to the Moon by taking steps because the technology making each possible had arrived. Accelerated development of the technology was driven by our determination to attain the goal.
@Greg
That statement is correct, however, the reasons for the commitment should be discussed as well. Rarely in society has government spending been the engine of technological breakthroughs and advances. From the car, to aircraft, from the cell phone to building materials, general, free market enterprise, with an eye towards producing a profitable product, has given our world amazing technology. Even the solar panels and wind turbine industries started based on free market incentives, adapted from earlier tech and expanded to encompass the current idea. Government intervention, or rather, favoritism, has stalled and stunted many an industry, by artificially boosting some companies above others, taking the incentive of profit away from the industry, and the untimely death of many a company, some of whom may have given us the breakthroughs in technology required for the industries to be profitable of their own accord, and competitive with related industries.
Government intervention in industry has produced nothing but destruction.
@Greg: Getting to the moon is different than requiring a whole country to resort to alternative energy sources. No advancements in technology has occured unless there is an economic reason for that advancement. The space program eventually turned into an economical program when the requirements for communications became economical. DeVinci invented the helocopter but if the government had pushed development of it as a transportation device, that country would have gone bankrupt!
MR, we usually don’t respond to classless bores who resort to name calling on their first challenge; tragically, your nonsensical reply reveals your pathetic lack of intellect, so I will humor the other readers with a reply to your argument, even though it is weak and unsupported.
I drive 60,000 miles a year. In ’81 I hit a Great Gray Owl on the Alaska Hiway that literally attacked my pick-up after dark, I put him in the back and planned on trying to save him, but the next day he flew away as if nothing happened. That’s the only bird I have hit since that time. In the last 30 years, I have driven approximately 1.8 million miles, with only one bird who sought death as a kamikazee.
Now, the wind turbines near Palm Springs are located in a pass through the mountains, the same one that I 10 passes through. The narrow pass acts as a venturi to funnel the wind and all flying creatures through the same narrow pass. It is an optimum place to trap prevailing winds and the birds who ride the air currents into the Cachella Valley. The wind forces often will move your car a foot or two to the side when they are really blowing. There are many crashes resulting from people losing control or their nerve at 70 mph. There are hundreds if not thousands of windmills in the pass, making it nearly impossible for ducks geese and hawks, owls and song birds to miss as they fly through the pass at their normal altitude, an altitude that is considerably higher than a car or truck. If you are enterprising you can watch the death and destruction from a hillside. I have driven through the pass a thousand times and have yet to see a bird flying along the highway. Whether someone likes or hates the argument is immaterial; the facts or the facts, unless you want to rely on emotion and the blind faith of a Useful Idiot. Unfortunately, these are the precise reasons we are suffering through Obama.
Gosh darn, thanks for the comeuppance, didn’t know you ran this outfit. I’ll try to behave in the future. That being said, I would agree that if you ran a flock of geese through a funnel into a blender, per your example, you’d end up with bird hamburger. Your less than specific statistics don’t take into consideration other locations, i.e., the Great Plains, where the majority of the turbines are located. This area, from the Texas Panhandle to the Dakotas, has little or no issue with this lame slam against windfarms. Do your own homework and check it out instead of spouting nonsence. Want to slam a wind farm? Talk economics, not birds.
Al, you may be onto a very worthwhile endeavour. It will be difficult, in your research, to distill the truth when there is so much political energy twisting facts and statistics into ideological wagons for the socialist train. When you have someone like Skook offering help, you also get his “nose” for bull which will provide another perspective to your own. Good luck with it.
FYI, there is also some amazing technology trying to understand how to tap into the power of tides – some of which may well prove viable in time. When I was in the venture game, I looked at some brilliant concepts looking for financing, however, as Skook points out in #32, there’s risk, and then there’s RISK. It’s technology that is still at least a decade out. Dealing with the impact of salt water is a bitch, just for starters. However, the tides are very consistent, much more consistent than the winds, obviously.
Interestingly enough, Oil companies understand tides really well. They deal with the ravages of tides, salt, and currents on their offshore rigs. They also have deep pockets. Harnessing tides will take deep, almost bottomless pockets before efficient, reliable and workable systems find cost/price balance. Sometimes, breakthroughs occur or are discovered by accident.
@Randy: #26
Randy, “the live span of a solar array is 20-25 years” – those published numbers may be longer than reality. There seems to be serious degradation of the surfaces and materials after 5 or 6 years from wind, dust, sun, rain, birds etc. Efficiency get negatively affected. Plus, depending on where they’re located, someone has to be out there, or up there, with a squeegee. It will take another decade of technological advances before efficient harnessing of sunlight is achieved.
@Skookum: #37
Skook, I’m absolutely sure that you are awaiting with bated breath for M.R.’s economic dissertation on the financial viability of windfarms. I know I am, . . . My own due diligence on them when I was approached for capital by clowns building these boondoggles may have been incorrect, or I may have been mistaken, or perhaps my calculator was malfunctioning.
I am also surprised to read that birds now fly at car-bumber levels. Hmm. I was also wrong on that for all these many years it seems.
@Michael A. Reesby:
Let me substitute bats for birds.
Both are invaluable to crops in the Great Plains.
Here’s the bat map of value of bats for crops (savings on insecticide):
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2011/03/batvalues.jpg
Estimated annual value of insectivorous bats in agriculture by county. Multiply values by $1,000, e.g., 2100 to 3400 equals $2.1 million to $3.4 million (Science).
Some of these counties save over $73 million a year!
Just because of the benefits of bats (that do get sucked into wind turbine blades).
Now, I learned here that bats live a long time and have small numbers of offspring, meaning, if you kill a bunch of them in wind turbines, it may take decades before they make a comeback.
As to the amber colored ethanol I’ll join you in that. True, energy is everywhere but it has to put in some useable form, which various actions do cause some necessary heat and mechanical waste. All by itself water flowing downhill will not directly run the lights, at least the last time I heard. Liquid hydrocarbons are sure hard to beat for transportable energy, that’s why they rule as the kings of energy and will for some time to come. The growing problem is one of supply as the oilfields continue to decline production while China and India continue to expand their use at exponential rates.
Regarding supply, the U.S. has a lot of relatively cheap natural gas which is under utilized but will become more popular as liquid hydrocarbons continue to increase in price. Compressed natural gas “CNG” is already much cheaper in many cases (all things considered) to use than gasoline or diesel fuel and is better for the environment exhaust wise and life of the motors as well. It will soon be a case of “use what you have”. Existing vehicles can be converted to “dual fuel”, that is gasoline or diesel as well as natural gas for much less than the replacement cost of a modern hybred electric vehicle’s battery pack, and once it’s done it’s done and your fuel prices are cut roughly in half for each mile you drive.
The things that are really useless, stupid “crap” are all of the special interest serving usage mandates and farmer/manufacturer subsidy handouts involved with the federal ethanol debacle which serves chiefly to reduce our miles per gallon, raise our price per gallon and damage our engines while also raising food and livestock feed/meat and dairy prices at the same time. And what are the added costs built into your gasoline price for the many different “blends” which have been mandated all across the country? On second thought perhaps “crap” is not a strong enough word. No wonder we are rapidly going broke!
I’m a little late to this party, and to congratulate Al on a stellar post. And I hope you enjoyed that ethanol tottie, since it was well deserved.
I think the problem with alternatives energies, at large, is that the feds tend to think nationally. Like jvcyclist, I think a better solution is for homes to be built, or eventually retrofitted (not via mandate) as more independent from the grid. That way they draw less, and only tap into the grid when necessary. This also doesn’t put the onus on the taxpayer nationally, but makes it a choice for the individual homeowners (or complexes). Nor does it require creating new transmission lines, sundry enviro lawsuits… all of which reduces an already losing proposition to a further black hole of inefficient, fiscal waste.
@jvcyclist said something I run into a lot… living OTG (off the grid). Oddly enough, nanny government isn’t always friendly to such development without hurdling quite a few zoning hoops. And it is, of course, dependent on each states’ particulars.
The three basics that will be demanded for any permit to build, and final certification of occupancy, is that the home have power, domestic water and septic/sewer/composting toilets. Any one of these can pose an obstacle that must be overcome. In my state, they rarely allow septic systems on property that cannot be developed per state zoning. i.e. it does not fit a template test (within x miles of other parcels and existing homes).
That said, if they found a buildable piece, some have chosen to go the way of OTG. Indeed, the largest misconception is that you must be in the middle of nowhere to have a self sustainable home. You can choose a design to be self sustainable in power, even if in the city. Sewer lines? Nope… must use those, as well as the city water. But a bonus in this case, you also have the grid right there, in the event the sun doesn’t shine, the wind doesn’t blow, there’s no rain for hydro, and you’re not sitting a’top a geyser. If you are outside city limits and UGB, you can opt to be as OTG as you can afford. But you’re still dealing with septic systems/regulations, and still must jump the regulation hoops for domestic water sources.
But there’s a downside to all this genuine OTG stuff. You must be cash rich (unless you are just a city home, retrofitted with alternative power). There are but a thimbleful of lenders who will either finance the construction of an OTG home, and even less who will help a buyer purchase an OTG home. I’ve seen these homes that range from rickity cabins to mansionesque log homes. They turn out to be the white elephants of real estate because they have pretty much only one market niche – cash buyers. This means you’re likely to be there for the rest of your life, unless you’re one lucky seller. Or that you must agree to do a seller carry contract, and not cash out totally.
What you may want to add to the mix from your personal experiences, jvcyclist, is obtaining homeowners insurance. Without a mortgage, it isn’t required. But if there is a lien for any improvement on your property, that’s another necessary evil that has proven to be somewhat difficult. And most certainly, if you are acting as “the bank” with a seller carry, would you not want insurance to protect you, the beneficiary?
My point? Thinking out of the box doesn’t come naturally to government officials, at all levels, when it comes to individuals and their requests. They only know how to do so when it’s a one-size-fits-all proposal. There is a clash between the daily details, and lofty ideology.
Oh yes… we’re all quite happy you decided to engage in the 21st century with DSL, jvcyclist. Otherwise would have missed your valuable comments and observations. LOL
@ Mata Harley #42
Cogent and correct comments. As far as septic and such, we are in VERY rural New Mexico (population density of way less than one household per square mile) and even then, the septic tank requirements were very rigid. In fact, because of caliche we were unable to get our leach lines as deep as “they” wanted…so we extended them for literally hundreds of yards, with vents and sample ports along the way. On the other hand, we could place the septic tank, so we have THAT going for us.
City water and sewer…are non-existant out here. Your points are good in that respect as well. We chose to site in a very rural location for that reason precisely (well, there are other reasons…). We were fortunate that our first well came in on time and on budget (and quite fortuitously with very sweet water)…at 800 or so feet. The majority of our power budget is, in fact, designed around getting the water out of the ground. By the bye, we could have actually gone to the old school windmill pump even at that depth…but the cost was relatively prohibitive…but back to the discussion.
USAA has been pretty accomodating on the insurance front. One of our neighbors…who is not a vet…was quoted an annual insurance cost of in the 10s of thousands of dollars. His house is very nice indeed, but still. One thing that makes this problem worse is the lack of a fire department out where we are. On the other hand, we’ve kicked in together and are forming a local volunteer fire department which will decrease his (and all of our) costs for insurance.
Wouldn’t say I was cash rich…but I cut a deal with my builder wherein we are paying as we go…keeps him employed and builds the house without a mortgage (which, of course, goes to your point). As far as owning the house for the rest of our lives…precisely. That is the plan…this is our retirement redoubt. We plan on dying there. Hopefully not too soon. The house will be left to the kids…and parcels of the residual 95 acres has been offered as building sites to the kids as well. What they do with it after we die…I don’t really care. On the other hand, looks like one of them is going to take of advantage of his plot to build in the future…we have some business plans that interest him.
“Thinking out of the box doesn’t come naturally to government officials, at all levels, when it comes to individuals and their requests.” Boy howdy. We are currently going around and around with an electrical inspector. The guy would seem to have recently taken class on OTG solar…and he is terrified of making a mistake. The best example is his concerns for our batteries. Now…batteries for a house of this size represent a serious investment (right around $10K) and really don’t like to see temperatures much over 85 degrees…or below freezing. We have a great plan to deal with the hydrogen discharge on charging, and really set up a lovely, safe, effective arrangement. His response? “I really think you ought to just put the batteries outside…” We continue to negotiate, but that level of ignorance is exactly to what you refer.
As I orginally opined…at the micro level, it is possible that Solar and Wind does make of sense. Further, the governmental support (financial) is pretty sensible to me….in that tax CREDITS simply let me keep some of my own money. However, as you correctly pointed out, the local and State governmental agencies (and banks, and…) lack the flexibility (intelligence?) to allow those micro solutions to work as well as they might.
“Otherwise would have missed your valuable comments and observations.” Worth precisely what you paid for ’em :-).
Jim
Woof… an 800′ well makes drilling costs between $18K-20K here, and that doesn’t include the system to pump it out of the ground. And I laughed when you told of your battles with the permit approvals on the solar and batteries. All too common in the OTG world. Plus that, you should see what people have to go thru to get insurance when they build straw bale walls.
Nothing seems to come easy, or inexpensive, when you’re actually attempting to do one man’s contribution to AGW. LOL Yes, I “get” that wasn’t your goal, but rather that you simply didn’t want to be held hostage to the utility amenities of civilization. That’s actually most OTG folks’ quest… little to do with “saving the planet”, but “saving the wallet” for the duration of their lives. In one way, many are trying to work their way back to a different era when your “job” was making sure you had food on the table, clothes to wear, and maintenance of your abode…. not sitting in a desk cubicle somewhere as an employee.
The problem in our area has been that land is still high priced, zoning still gets in the way, and seller carrys/land contract sales are not in a buyers best interest in that the deed doesn’t get transferred to their names. It is never wise to improve land that is vested in someone else’s name. If they agree to vest, it can be considered, But when sellers act as “the bank”, they tend to be pretty unforgiving in rates they charge.
I agree, most are also of the mindset that “I plan to die here”… But I also see so many that aren’t up to the task of the more rugged demands of that lifestyle. Counting watts, working the land… all is not a part of their upbringing. It gets more difficult as the body ages. So I always worry about them if they change their minds, and find themselves wanting to return to an “easier life” of being held hostage to traditional US lifestyle amenities. They have their entire net worth tied up in these homes, and it’s not easy getting even some of it back out, in the event of a change of heart.
Because the OTG subject is near and dear to my heart, I especially thank you for your personal experiences contribution here. I’m always hoping to hear that the path has gotten easier… somewhere. Doesn’t seem to be the case. Such a disconnect….
But I will say this… you’re lucky to be in NM, where they will allow you to pass on buildable parcels to your heirs. Our zoning is most especially difficult on partitioning in all but rare circumstances.
My rant was never meant to be for or against wind farms; therefore I have no “economic disertation” on them. They win or lose on their own merits. The irritation factor here is the ecofreak use of bird kills to stymy anything they deem undesirable, be it wind farms, new highways, etc.
Human Causes of Bird Fatalities Bird Deaths a year
Glass Windows
Dr. Daniel Klem of Muhlenberg College has done studies over a period of 20 years, looking at bird collisions with windows. His conclusion: glass kills more birds than any other human related factor.
100 to 900+ million
House Cats
The National Audubuon Society says 100 million birds a year fall prey to cats. Dr. Stan Temple of the University of Wisconsin estimates that in Wisconsin alone, about 7 million birds a year are killed by cats
100 million
Automobiles / Trucks
Scientists estimate the number of birds killed by cars and trucks on the nation’s highways to be 50 to 100 million a year. Those statistics were cited in reports published by the National Institute for Urban Wildlife and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
50 to 100 million
Electric Transmission Line Collisions
Estimates made by the U.S. Fish and Wildife Service demonstrate millions of birds die each year as a result of colliding with transmission lines.
up to 174 million
Agriculture
Pesticides likely poison an estimated 67 million birds per year according to the Smithsonian Institution. Cutting hay may kill up to a million more birds a year.
67 million
Land Development
Suburban sprawl is a silent but deadly killer. The National Audubon Society says loss of bird habitat is the greatest threat to bird populations.
unknown
Communication Towers
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that bird collisions with tall, lighted communications towers, and their guy wires result in 4 to 10 million bird deaths a year.
4 to 10 million
Stock Tank Drowning
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists and other conservationists believe that large numbers of birds inadvertently drown in livestock water tanks.
unknown
Oil and Gas Extraction
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reports that up to 2 million birds died landing in oil pits to bathe and drink in 1997. Fish and Wildlife says netting has improved that situation somewhat. There are no overall estimates for the number of birds affected by oil and gas spills, and oil and gas extractions (and transport.)
1 to 2 million
Logging and Strip Mining
Logging and strip mining destroy bird habitat. According to the National Audubon Society, habitat destruction is the leading cause of bird population declines.
unknown
Commercial Fishing
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Ornithological Council report that 40 thousand seabirds per year are killed in the Gulf of Alaska by longline fishing operations. These same sources say long lining and gill netting kill large numbers of birds in other parts of the country as well.
unknown
Electrocution (Raptors)
Experts estimate that more than one thousand hawks, eagles, falcons and owls are electrocuted on transmission lines and poles each year.
more than 1,000
Hunting
According to the U.S. Fish and Wildife Service, more than 100 million ducks, geese, swans, doves, shorebirds, rails, cranes, among others are harvested legally each year.
100 + million
@Mata Harley #44: Yup, 800 feet. It “only” cost us around $12K here. And we consider ourselves lucky…one of our neighbors has sunk 3 dry holes so far. At 800-1000 feet, even without casing and pump, makes pouring money into holes in the ground a fact instead of a metaphor.
Is true…we are attracted to the self-sufficiency meme. On the other hand, assuming civilization holds together (not an entirely sure deal) as an Anesthesiologist, I can mangage to wander down the hill and make a buck or two so we can dine out. Or whatever.
As we age, we are wondering a little about what doors we are closing…on the other hand, perhaps engaging in an active retirement will prolong active life. Remains to be seen.
New Mexico rules are that we can subdivide out 35 acres every 3 years. We are doing so…but, of course, holding on to the title of the parcels. Won’t be too long before we can pass parcels to the kids…and if any of them wish to come up early we certainly can lease them their parcels until we can fomally subdivide it out.
And of course you are completely correct. I think AGW is the biggest (in dollars) con job ever perpetrated upon the people of the world. Our effort is all about not paying the utility company…and being able to cut that single wire if the powers that be really continue down the path of forgetting what this country is all about.
‘Cause it isn’t a very big step at all from a self-contained, self-supported retirement to being a neo-survivalist. I find myself increasingly investing in precious metals…lead and brass. And we are building relationships with our neighbors (few that they are) to the point that each of us can bring to the table what the others can’t…and we’ll all do just fine. And given that we live at the end of 10 miles of very bad road…which is still 20 miles of freeway and 10 miles of bad road from the closest city center, we’re quite confident that we’ll only visit with people we wish to visit with.
Jim
Didn’t know whether to post this here or on the ethanol thread. Here is another fuel source that’s been developed. Supposedly the USAF is or was considering using it. Any thoughts?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Syntroleum
@jvcyclist, I’m on the floor hysterical with the visual. You can wander into town, put some urbanite under, take the money and run. LOL You know what’s particularly great about your clientele? They can’t talk back. heh
Speaking of talking back, @Michael A. Reesby if you read thru Al’s original article, the only mention about birds was tongue in cheek and minimal. As he pointed out, they are expensive, inefficient and a poor choice in any way for productive energy.
Me thinks you leaped on the miniscule far too quickly. This is not a forum of eco’nuts, and few here object to them for bird kills. They just enjoy throwing that in the faces of those who don’t understand anything else.
’tis too bad you didn’t come in with your latest comment first. Would have made a much better impression.
Roger that.
@Michael A. Reesby: FYI, dumbass, I belong to the World Wildlife Fund, and we have documented bird kills at these wind farms- it’s not hard, just walk beneath them. Doves, ducks, and other migratory birds are killed at an alarming rate, FAR more than are killed by cars.
Now, I am not an eco- weenie, but I think that the bird situation should be known for the facts, even if you do not give a rat’s ass about them- Another drawback is the reduced wind velocity downwind of these turbines. They slow the wind and we do not yet know the unforeseen consequences of this action/ reaction.
And my chief objection to wind is that it is so woefully inefficient, energy in/ energy out-wise.
Just really not much bang for the buck, just an egotistical reach-around to make you feel better.