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Any Senator who doesn’t now hold his vote in abeyance until he gets his own personal payout is really dumb.
For instance, Reed should demand he be appointed ambassador to Ireland if he loses his reelection.
That guy who took Obama’s Senate seat should demand to be appointed Ambassador to Sierra Leone.
Everyone with a Democrat Senator:
Please contact them and demand they withhold their vote until they can get a big pile of money for your state.
DR
14 years ago
@Timothy
Good idea. Nelson, however, may look at the 30 pieces of silver as a campaign donation.
This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. Nelson had his price. The Dems are hoping that we are too stupid, and will forget about it by the time the mid-term elections come next November. That we’ll overlook the gazillions of taxes being collected. That we’ll be thankful for the pork being brought home.
janeplain
14 years ago
SCUMER (Schumer) is my senior senator. He said he spent 13 hrs. in the room negotiating with Nelson and was immensely happy with the outcome. Do you think either he or the new junior senator from NY will listen to anyone. It’s like talking to the wind!
CISBlues
14 years ago
As a proud Nebraskan, I must apologize to the rest of America for the outrageous conduct of our senior Senator, Ben Nelson. Two-face Ben must be recalled, and thousands of my fellow conservatives in this state will do everything we can to remove this arrogant Democrat out of office.
So now 60% of the Senate supports going to a vote, those senators representing about 75% of the American population, which about a year ago overwhelmingly elected “the most liberal member of the Senate” as president . . . but Nelson is a “bad guy” for letting this piece of legislation championed by said president go to a vote of the full Senate and the House . . . which the voters chose to have dominated by the more liberal party? So that’s the con take?
Here is a hint, conservatives: win some elections and you, too, can muster 60 votes to pass a piece of legislation the other side doesn’t like. What’s that? Can’t be done? Conservatives can’t get to 60? Hmm . . . sounds to me like the American people have spoken!
Seems to me, cons, that if the status quo was so great, the voters would have sent conservatives to the presidency and majorities in the House and Senate. By sending liberals, the voters basically said that they don’t trust conservatives to solve the problem.
And where would they get that idea? Maybe it was the fact that those conservatives DID NOTHING when they had the majorities. And don’t give me the whiney “liberals blocked everything.” That’s b.s. because (a) liberals could not block anything in the House and (b) you could have peeled off the more conservatives Dems (the Nelsons, Lincoln, all those farm state Dems) if they had tried a little. But there was no proposal and no will from the right to actually solve the rather obvious problems. So we have what we have now: a more liberal approach because conservatives never did shiite when they had a chance.
delh
14 years ago
Abortions are ok if they happen outside of Nebraska?
B-Rob
14 years ago
And Mitch McConnell . . . “jamming through”? “Bob and weave”? Who do you think you are kidding? Health care and the various options have been argued about for the last nine months! You mook, this is not some “middle of the night” bill. Anyone who wants to know anything about it knows what has been discussed ad nauseum! “Jam it through”? Please! Its passing the weekend of Christmas because you kept trying to delay it, you goofus! But the silly cranks yelling at town hall meetings strategy did not work. Your “Hitler” and “death panels” arguments did not work. And Bill Kristol’s insane “our current system is great” argument is laughed at by anyone with a brain.
Conservatives could have decided they wanted to work with the majority Dems. They chose not to . . . they chose the whining and Tea Party tactic instead. It just like the 2008 “Joe the Plumber” strategy is an utter failure. So deal with it and move on, Mitch . . . nothing to see here anymore.
@John Cooper: If it’s legal in your state you and Erick ought to consider getting hitched 🙂
Actually the Redstate piece was written by Sean Davis. I wonder if he realizes that we only have 40 votes in the Senate and the Dems have 60?
And to give McConnell no credit for the strategy which effectively shifted the poll numbers which BROB will now ignore seems to me to be mean spirited and petulant.
Again, I didn’t read one word from Sean spelling out a strategy that would have resulted in this bill being dead.
Methinks some of the folks at Redstate like to make a lot of noise and get a lot of attention which only serves to undermine our long term efforts by keeping conservatives angry and disappointed with our leadership.
How old are those Redstate characters anyway? I’ve been following these political issues for DECADES and I’ve never been more proud of the united effort being put forward by our GOP team. Even if we had killed this bill, there would still be so-called conservatives out there complaining that it wasn’t good enough. As I have said before, some of these folks do nothing but sit on the sidelines and complain. I wonder how many campaigns they have personally worked on?
I’m not going to get into a food fight with Redstate (but for the record, YOU started it). I would however ask you again exactly what you thought McConnell could have done that would be more effective??????
@B-Rob: Since you are so interested in the will of the American people perhaps you need to look at the opinion polls on this topic:
Er, Mike, hate to have to break this down to you but:
1) As Nelson mentioned in his press conference, THIS BILL has not been completed, so there is no “public opinion poll” on it. So what
2) As many have pointed, out, many people oppose the previous health care proposals because they don’t go far enough. It is not a pro-con “we want the status quo” no, as much as a “this is an insurance company sell-out” no for many people polled.
3) We have a representative system for a reason. I bet in many states, if you polled people, they would not want to pay anything for defense. And in many other states, they would not want to pay anything for poverty programs. If you polled the South, they would not have wanted the Civil Rights Acts that finally freed Black people from proto-slavery. But luckily we didn’t listen to that nonsense, either, did we? But that ain’t how we govern our country. We do it by electing representatives to vote on the big picture.
4) This is a massive fail on the part of the GOP. They decided to do nothing to get a compromise, and now look what it got them? Failure.
And will say it again and again: unless and until the GOP finds someone other than an old White guy with a Southern twang to tell their story, they will continue to lose the cities and suburbs, which contain the mass of the US population. The fact that it was a Red State Dem, Nelson, who put the Dems over the top should send a message about the weakness of the GOP right now: he wasn’t even afraid to vote with the libs!
5) The only people arguing for the status quo were those tea-bagger nuts and other conservatives. The rest of America realizes that, Cleveland Clinic notwithstanding, we have some serious problems with the health care and insurance systems. Islands of excellence in a sea of mediocrity that results in worse health care outcomes than our competitors in western Europe. Obama, with the COBRA subsidy and this thing, has at least done something to address it. Will it work? Who knows. But he did not do what the conservatives would have done — which is sit around with their thumbs up their poopers thinking tax cuts and tort reform will actually get an unemployed man insurance coverage.
6) The GOP simply dropped the ball. Did they ever actually produce a plan like they said in September that they would? And, no, I don’t mean those six and seven year old two page documents that the GOP House and Senate never even proposed. I mean a real plan that dealt with the coverage issues, the employment linkage problems, etc. Nope, they didn’t. And when a real problem is present, a potentially faulty plan that might work is better than no plan at all.
billy bob: So now 60% of the Senate supports going to a vote, those senators representing about 75% of the American population, which about a year ago overwhelmingly elected “the most liberal member of the Senate” as president . . . but Nelson is a “bad guy” for letting this piece of legislation championed by said president go to a vote of the full Senate and the House . . . which the voters chose to have dominated by the more liberal party?
Those Senators may “represent” about 75% of the American population, however they are deliberately ignoring the across the spectrum polling of disapproval. In other words, in their arrogance, they choose to *not* represent what their constituents want because “they know best”.
Nelson is a “bad guy” because he, like others, allowed his vote to be purchased. Or, as the quote/punchline attributed to George Bernard Shaw goes, we’ve already established what Nelson and other Congressional members are…. and evidently they haggled and found the right price.
billy bob: And Mitch McConnell . . . “jamming through”? “Bob and weave”? Who do you think you are kidding? Health care and the various options have been argued about for the last nine months! You mook, this is not some “middle of the night” bill. Anyone who wants to know anything about it knows what has been discussed ad nauseum!
Well, Mr. Omnipotent, your seer skills must be impressive indeed, since the backroom formulated amendments and text of bills with all changes has not been posted for that 72 hours… nay, not even when they were asking for votes… for all to read. Devil in the details, and you… as a lawyer… know that well. But I guess your particular brand of ethics dictate personal examination and debate on what transpired in those back rooms is purely optional.
billy bob: But the silly cranks yelling at town hall meetings strategy did not work. Your “Hitler” and “death panels” arguments did not work. And Bill Kristol’s insane “our current system is great” argument is laughed at by anyone with a brain.
Interesting since those “silly cranks” are those that sent the bozos to these chambers. And again, consistantly polls show we “silly cranks” are in the majority for non-support of “remaking” instead of “reforming” health care.
Now I suppose if it’s only those corrupt scumbag elected elite who are the only ones you consider to have “a brain”, or the minority who is looking for a government handout and believes healthcare is actually free, you might have a point. But look around… what you witness is the will of the “we the people” being roughshod run over by elected ins, and with their price for doing so on full display.
Yet this is just fantastic in your view? You are one sick puppy.
Who do you think you are kidding? Health care and the various options have been argued about for the last nine months! You mook, this is not some “middle of the night” bill. Anyone who wants to know anything about it knows what has been discussed ad nauseum!
billy bob #18:
1) As Nelson mentioned in his press conference, THIS BILL has not been completed, so there is no “public opinion poll” on it.
Take your pick, billy bob. It can’t be “ad nauseum” and old hat stuff, and not complete with no public opinion at the same time.
Again, your seer skills appear to be lacking, and no one should be voting on bills they have not read, and were reconstructed and dabbled with in the back rooms out of sight.
@B-Rob: Hate to break it to you pal, but public opinion on this issue is overwhelming. Americans prefer NO BILL AT ALL over the backroom secret bill loaded with favors for certain senators and special interests your team has cooked up!
You can play all the word games you want but you are not fooling anyone but yourself.
I guess that makes you a fool. That won’t surprise too many around here.
FedUp
14 years ago
Ah… about that pesky clause in the oath taken at swearing into office:
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.”
Seems to me that our elected crooks and liars have conveniently ignored this.
Let me go on record by saying that they are now to be considered perjurers and that
THEY are domestic enemies!!! I am so disgusted that our unholy triumvirate are now reduced to bribes, threats and coercian! THEY MUST GO!!!
You made a few good points, but erased any credibility you had when you used the phrase “tea-bagging” and called the people who attend Tea Party protests ‘nuts’. Doing so revealed that you are most likely a pimply-faced college student posting from your taxpayer-provided dorm room. Either that or an SEIU-member broom pusher…
Sorry, but I’m already married (39 years to the same beautiful woman who may well be a better shot than I am, and knows how to dress out the game she shoots.)
I think Erick (or Sean?) makes some good points, as do you. I just think McConnell needs to bone up on his parliamentary procedure or have a Republican parliamentarian on the floor at all times to prevent fiascos like the Coburn/Sanders f**kup. He just seems like he always brings a knife to a gun fight, but hopefully I’m wrong about that.
Any Republican who has sponsored an earmark, voted for an unconstitutional government program, accepted deals with deceptive democrat opponents, voted for tax increases, voted for any bill that takes control of business or seizes control of regulation that should be reserved for state governments, should immediately announce that they will no longer accept a leadership role within the party. Furthermore, they should announce that as soon as a primary opponent is available to run for their seat that they will refuse to run for another term.
Yup, I’m a Tea Partier…
John Cooper
14 years ago
Mata–
(In my best John Belushi voice in the Blues Brothers) I hate Chicago lawyers. (grin)
@John Cooper: I’m glad you won’t be “getting a room” with Erick from Redstate:)
I’m glad to hear you are a tea partier. I’m a big booster of that movement and went to my own here. I also dropped in at the Town Hall my Congressman Joe “YOU LIE” Wilson held here this summer.
Don’t make me go back and reprint my ties to Reagan, Ashbrook, Buckley, Goldwater, Phyllis Schlafly, Phil Crane et. al. You know I can do it.
Now, on to your next point, I can’t think of anything more destructive to the longterm success of the conservative movement than to impose yet ANOTHER restriction on our elected officials that is not also imposed on Democrats. The idea that every GOP official who proposed an earmark should be purged from the party is INSANE.
Heck, there are some on our side who want to ditch John Boehner from the House leadership and yet he’s never proposed an earmark. Where does this fratricide end?
Some of the folks putting forward this B.S. are more interested in destroying the GOP than building a viable conservative governing majority.
Question John Cooper: Did you vote for Ross Perot in either 1992 or 1996? If so, are you happy with the result? Eight years of Bill Clinton?
Mr. Irons
14 years ago
B-Rob, I am surprised you willingly swallow propganda such as that. Living in the midwest, Kansas myself, most city folk would perfer that the taxes collected at a State and Federal level would be spent within the very programs the taxes were orginaly designed to collect for: Defense and physical Infrastructure as in Roads and public faclities. Our Federal Government was to provide a very bare bones platform of Law by supplying a framework to unify the various States and their vastly different cultures and Laws together with the Bill of Rights and the Consitution and by providing a unified National Military defense while allowing the States to maintain their indvidual Soverignty. The current Democrats are in starke violation of Consitutional restraints and Oath they took when they were sworn into office, and the very Republic represenation you champion is expressing massive dissent en masse against Democrats who have squandered our tax dollars and have taken massive ammounts of loans since 2006 (the year Democrats became the majority). Our taxes are not being used propperly and we are being taxed without any form of representation at all and yet I’m surprised people have not started to publicly declare, “No Taxation without Representation!” The GOP have been minimalized and voted out of their power back in 2006 within both chambers, so they have already gotten their wake up call.
The GOP as you so clearly want to blame for, let alone insult by claiming they’ve done nothing, have drafted series of reforms for Healthcare and for Economical recovery that would target massive problems within a business’s budget:
Taxations
Lawsuit fees
Client/Internal Fraud.
Union inflated worker wages
Rising Minimal Wage.
Credit Fraud.
And yet, what is the “Status Quo?” A good question to ask, and you have failed to detail how you view the Status Quo. Democrats have always been a tradtional supporter of the orginal Status Quo that the British had emplaced on the orginal 13 colonies:
High taxtion, Governmental mandates (Navigation Act/Tea Tax/Molases Act/Stamp Act), Impressment (aka Enslavement) into Military service (Modern Day Draft concepts), Direct silencing of Opposing sides with physical force, and finaly denial of fair Representation.
These were the orginal Status Quo British Colonists revolted against and finaly rebelled against to become These United States of America and yet here we are with a modern day variant of the Navigation act within Healthcare yet We the People of These States of America are denied being able to read the very Bill our elected officals want to impress and mandate onto us with physical force if need be. This is what the Democrats want, the total embracement of the orginal Status Quo that the British Empire had placed and yet you swallow all it down as if it’s a grand thing to fight the “Status Quo of the Republicans.”
What has been the Republican’s Status Quo since political introduction before the American Civil War? Let’s see, then, Republicans were viewed as the Liberal group who’se Status Quo mandates were:
Lower Taxation, Limited Governmental powers with no mandates, Opposing views freely allowed to express their point of view within debate, Fair Representation of all Men of America, Abolishment of Enslavement.
These are the Status Quo of the Tea Party group and if you, B-Bob wish to be taken seriously should not use slurs and insults to rationalize your side of the problem. Petty namcalling is not called for against your opposition, nor will such insults change the fact that majority Americans have been and always will be fiscaly conservative with their private lives. Only fools will refuse to live within their means and take on large amounts of debt to satisfy their greed. The platform of the Tea Party Protest groups is demanding our Government to cease with living off of a proverbial credit cards given to them from China and the European Union and to lower taxation.
California’s State Government is a perfect culture sample of what our Federal Government is doing and what the Population is responding to the horrible Governmental mistakes and mandates imposed. Farmland has been destroyed by Government Mandated laws to save a fish only about an inch long, destroying many personal lives and business in the argiculture business forcing people to pack up and relocate out of state. A sudden extra 10 percent hike in State Tax withholdings on all workers in that State has caused an influx migration to Nevada and other states with far lower or no State Income Tax to spare what personal income they have to afford food and shelter. The Exodus of residents of California has further placed a strain on the State Budget as these were to be what is considered a, “Static revenue stream” by Economists whom supported the sudden income withholding and there are rumors that withholding might go up to 15 or 20 percent if things keep souring for revenue. This enviroment is the perfect situation to give birth to an Anti-Taxation/Governmental Mandate protest group such as the Tea Party.
And finaly, what proof do you have that details a GOP civil war is going on? The only issue right now that is happening with the GOP is hardly a Civil war. Moderates within the GOP are losing ground not within the GOP itself but by Tea Party protestors and the GOP is on a losing battle against a Tea Party take over in terms of Policy due to Primary races for 2010 seats of Governership, Senator, and Congressman positions. The greatest example of this political shift in stance is embodied within Allen West’s Florida Congressional Seat race, this man represents the Tea Party mentality and nature of what must be done to our Government.
The only party that seems to be in any form of civil dispute right now would be the Democrats come in 2010 due to how the DNC primaries’ voting system is done and a heavy push to get Democrats whom have some variant form of Conservative policies be a direct competition that they’ll face from the GOP/Independent Groups (both of which are slanted heavily towards fiscal conservatisim).
No, I never voted for Perot (although to my everlasting shame I voted for Carter when I was young and stoopid). I admired how Perot got his employees which were taken hostage out of Iran, but when he announced that if elected, his first order of business would be to double the budget for the IRS, that ended it for me. Obviously, he wasn’t a ‘small government’ advocate after all.
No, I am NOT a third party advocate. My goal is to take over the Republican Party from the grass roots level on up, which is why I am tough on the RINOs currently infesting DC. I have high standards for my representatives. I expect them to be competent at their job. When they aren’t, I say so, as you have noted.
I’ve sent money to Joe Wilson, Doug Hoffman, and Danny Tarkanian. I’m active in the Asheville Tea Party and spend a lot of personal time there.
We’re on the same side, my friend, and keep up the great posts.
I’ll take a conservative over a RINO in a GOP primary any day.
But I’ll take a RINO over a Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi Democrat in a general election if that’s the choice.
This is not to say that I don’t support the Tea Party movement to take back the GOP. The County, State and National Party need to be shook up and reorganized and desperately need an infusion of enthusiastic organizers with new ideas.
My worry is that some of your FriedState (Redstate) friends have developed a bad habit of picking up their marbles and going home if they don’t get their way 100%. I first noticed that tendency in 2006 when some of them thought it would be a good idea to “teach the GOP a lesson” and sit it out in 2006. I wonder how they feel about that now after years of rule by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid?
Frankly, I’m not interested in starting up the whole RINO debate all over again. But I would just point out that a “purge” mentality in the GOP is a sure loser.
As we are witnessing today, the issues here are too important to see us divide our strength with party infighting. Obama, Reid and Pelosi would love to see us do that and have been stoking that kind of talk since 2006. I prefer not to fall prey to their manipulations.
Together we win.
John Cooper
14 years ago
“If you’re not a liberal at 20, you haven’t got a heart. If you’re not a conservative at 40, you haven’t got a brain.” –Winston Churchill
I’ve freely admitted that I didn’t have a brain at age 20. I’d like to think that I’ve learned a few things in my later years. One thing I’ve learned along the way is that trying to appease bullies like McConnell was trying to do earlier is a losing strategy.
Actually, I think I learned that lesson in 5th grade when confronted with a schoolyard bully. Playing nice didn’t work then, and – as we have seen – it doesn’t work in the Senate.
@John Cooper: I don’t agree that McConnell was trying to “appease bullies.” Perhaps you would like to share some examples from the junior league at Fried State to back up that claim.
But then, what do I know…. I was a conservative at 20 and you know what that means. (And for the record, STILL a conservative!)
Our Western culture is no longer willing to fight for values and the enemy knows that. Athenian democracy did not last. We are lead by the most corrupt leaders America has ever known who only care about themselves and power, not the will of the people. Yet, we let them off the hook…it only reflects on our values and I am saddened that I no longer live in the America that I came to so many decades ago.
Joe
14 years ago
Weep, dear repentant Obama voter, weep for the democracy you helped destroy! What’s that you say, “I didn’t vote for this!”? Don’t give me that! As surely as you voted for the One because you panicked over the banking meltdown, or because he was relatively young, and articulate, or because “history can’t wait!” As surely as you voted for him for all these reasons, you voted for this. Granted, the lovestruck MSM didn’t report a lot of the negative stuff, but the information was out there. You, however didn’t want to hear it. You didn’t want to hear the negative stuff, you only wanted to hear Hope and Change. Well, I don’t know about Hope, but you got Change. Now, the time has come for us all to reap the bitter harvest of the seeds you so rashly and thoughtlessly sowed in November ’08. Small consolation though it is, at least my conscience is clear.
Timothy
14 years ago
Well….that’s all folks
befuddled
14 years ago
liberals you own this mess.
you are a party of disastrous ideas and disastrous policies. and in every state where liberal ideas are given free reign, we know the outcome. I am so tired of trying to save idiots from themselves. the darwin award goes to all those morons who voted democrat. good luck with your liberal hell hole.
Ah, but all you miss out the point of Reid’s hold over the conservatives: Was Nelson bought out – Or BLACKMAILED? http://www.rickhyatt.freeservers.com -> Chandra/Condit/Cheney… 9/11?
Norris Hall
14 years ago
I don’t think I will benefit a lot from the health care bill.
But it helps 12-20 million uninsured Americans to get healthcare (just like they do in every single developed nation on earth…except the us)….if it bars Insurance companies from denying someone coverage because he has diabetes or high blood pressure or a pacemaker…if it closes the donut hole on senior citizens perscriptions…I’m for it.
It may or may not cost a lot…but if we can spend 800 billion dollars (and still counting) bringing freedom and democracy to the people of Iraq, training their army, equipping their police force, biling their bridges, roads, schools and hospitals and providing grants to their businessmen …then I think the least we owe our own people is equal treatment.
I’d hate to think there are some Americans who think it’s better to help some unknown foreigners in a far off land than it is our own American family here at home.
I don’t agree that McConnell was trying to “appease bullies.” Perhaps you would like to share some examples from the junior league at Fried State to back up that claim.
Well, let’s see. McConnell has gone along with agreements to limit debate time and limit the amendments that can be offered. He’s gone along with agreements to automatically withdraw Republican amendments if they didn’t get 60 votes, rather than the usual 51. He’s negotiated agreements which allow the meaningful Republican amendments to be easily superseded by meaningless, Democratic, face-saving amendments. He’s repeatedly failed to use the parliamentary weapons at his disposal.
RedState has a disturbing synopsis of McConnell’s track record posted now. I wasn’t aware that McConnell was the Republican manager for McCain-Feingold Bill and the Motor-Voter Bill – both of which ended up passing in spite of his ‘masterful’ opposition. I think if McConnell were a football coach, he would have been sacked by now with a record like that. But that’s just me.
“Junior League?” “Fried-State?” Don’t you think it’s kind of childish to resort to name-calling like that? That kind of stuff goes over really well on the DailyKos, but I’m surprised to see it here. Well, whatever…
Iif people weren’t pissed at the power-drunk Dems before, they likely are now…
These tools like Nelson will soon regret the day they did this for Obama, he’ll pull all them right-over the abyss with him… and the coming GOP majority will just rescind it anyway-
@Norris Hall, withall due respect, your knowledge of Constitutional powers is deplorable.
A free and thriving Arab democracy in Iran, the garden spot and heart of the Islamic caliphate, is a nation security issue. Having an ally there instead of a dedicated enemy is integral to self defense and acquisition of intel has everything to do with securing the borders… the federal government’s prime Constitutional task.
On the other hand, making sure everyone purchases insurance… illegal immigrants plus those who choose not to purchase it, as well as those who cannot afford it… is no where within Constitutional powers and a hideous misinterpretation of the general welfare clause.
Additionally, you have deplorable knowledge of the health care system. The only way anyone can be denied pre’existing conditions… diabetes or any other… is if they are applying for individual plans. No group plan is allowed to deny for that reason, and the max they can withhold benefits is for 12 months.
You’re being instructed via lies disguised as talking points. If the cure for eliminating pre’existing conditions is to have “group” plans, then the answer is to create more “groups”. To some extent this legislation may accomplish this… but not via the obvious channels. They are creating an “exchange”… rather a one stop shopping site to compare plans… and issuing mandates about pre’existing conditions. Then they are also mandating that those who are guaranteed right up front to be incurring higher medicals costs be charged no more than those who will not be burdening the system.
This is like forcing you to pay for 25 movie rentals a month when you only rent one a month, merely to cover the costs of those who do rent 25 a month.
To top the whole thing off, there is no cost reform of substance… last we knew with a bill we could read… included in this nonsense.
You say you won’t likely benefit. What you havent’ figured out yet is how dearly you will be paying.
@Norris Hallplays the “UNAMERICAN” card! Why is it you George Soros parrots are so free to throw that name around? Is it because you have a much closer personal knowledge of what it is like to be unAmerican than most of us?
As for covering the uninsured like every other decent country in the world, why does the Senate bill still leave 23 million uninsured?
And why if this matter is so urgent that we cannot even take a few days to read the bill does the coverage for the few new insured not start FOR YEARS?
@John Cooper: No, I don’t think it’s childish to resort to some namecalling where Red State is concerned. It’s clear they have a vendetta against McConnell and that gives me reason to doubt the claims that McConnell is an appeaser.
I’m sure they’d have some choice phrases to describe me. But then, I can always drag out my lifetime associations with the founding fathers of conservatism and ask them: What have you done that’s actually ACHIEVED any of the objectives you claim to represent.
That’s not a personal swipe at you. But I do want to warn you that not all of the folks you are listening to have the best long term interests of conservatism at heart.
Disturber
14 years ago
Ben Nelson,
Profile in cowardice.
vikingTX
14 years ago
Republican politicians should start circulating the notion that as soon as they regain a majority (2010), they will act as quickly as the Dems have to make sure all congress members, current and retired, are subject to the provisions of the laws they pass. I think this would be a wildly popular concept, and difficult to rebut. Though Obama might veto such legislation, it would ensure his lame duck status in a one term presidency.
Dems may think they can rig elections with Acorn and SEIU, but they cannot overcome the tidal wave numbers (55-65%) that oppose them.
This still has to go to conference next year. Then Pelosi is going to have to crack a pretty big whip to keep her folks in line. There will have to be more pay-offs. The Black Caucus, The Hispanic Caucus, and The Moonbat Caucus will all have to be paid off to keep the bill in the form needed to get 60 votes in the Senate. Then, if if passes and President Obama signs it, it will end up in the Supreme Court the first time someone is mandated to buy insurance. I feel pretty confident that Kennedy will vote with Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas on this one. They may even get Soto-Mayor, since she’s such a strict constitutionalist. /sacr
A working Doc
14 years ago
Another blogger, one of my fellow medical professionals wrote:
“The current health care system works nothing like a free market system. Enormous barriers to market entry and competition permeate a heavily-regulated system. Tax schemes skew consumption and resource allocation; government backed guilds control the supply of providers. We have heavy regulation and control of medical devices and medications; government-funded research is patented for private profit and patent laws function as price supports. The government says who can treat me, how they can treat me, what I can and can’t put into my body and from whom I may make purchases of what I put in my body.”
She is absolutely right. And Americans will continue to pay 40 to 60% more for medical outcomes comparable to those achieved by other first world economies because pinhead conservatives defend, tooth and nail, a professional guild system and a highly regulated marketplace that raises costs to patients, while pretending that they are defending free market principles and small government. Conservatives are, for the most part, absolutely clueless about the economics of the American health care system that has largely been cobbled together and regulated on the basis of rent seeking. Conservatives have offered nothing, zero, zip, nada, to stem consumer bleeding that fills private pockets with the gains of government granted privilege and marketplace regulation.
Until I hear something indicating that conservatives have even the remotest clue about the economics of health care, I will take their complaints about democrats as a case of self-deluding black pot-kettle syndrome. Had conservatives actually acknowledged, in some fashion, the underlying tension between government regulation of quality and pricing, we could have had an interesting discussion. As the debate actually unfolded, it was nothing more than a collision of nitwit partisanship on both sides.
Replace the word Conservative with Republican, and I agree with you. The two are not the same.
Milton Friedman, The Heritage Foundation, Ayn Rand, Cato….Those are in direct opposition to the likes of McCain, Bush and others like them.
I suggest you look around more, especially on this site. There are lots of Republicans who see what you see, and have expressed better ideas. Unfortunately, none of them are elected yet.
@A working Doc: I’m sorry you missed the many GOP elected officials, including a number of physicians, who expressed the same concerns you have.
You can’t be blamed for not hearing about as their opinions are not covered by the media and Democrats vote against every single one of their amendments to legislation.
And so, I disagree with Patvann that “none” of these common sense conservatives have been elected yet.
Disturber
14 years ago
To a Working Doc: Jeffery Flier, Dean of the Harvard Med School has written extensively that the bills proposed by the Dems do absolutely nothing to reduce costs (or bend the curve as the big O is want to say), do nothing to improve the quality or quantity of medical services presently available to Americans, and do nothing to improve medical outcomes. I tend to trust his perspectives as it took considerable courage for him to go public in the context of the political realities of medical academia. Indeed, Dean Flier’s view is also the consensus of every responsible medical professional who has read the bills, understands the proposed structures and has considered the matter. It is also the conclusion of the CBO, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic. Doc, these guys have credibility. The current bills layer on over one hundred bureaucratic boards and agencies, add hundreds of thousands of government employees, and add further and enormous complexities to the problems that you perceive not to mention the huge costs, extensive taxation and inevitable fiscal waste. In other words, the evils which you describe (and in my opinion greatly exaggerate), are only aggravated by the pending measures. The fact that the proposed “reforms” are supported by approximately 40% of the population and opposed by approximately 60% suggests that Americans aren’t stupid. Finally, the introduction of criminal penalties into the health care delivery system should open your eyes wide. Not only is the failure to obtain medical insurance criminalized, but a doctor’s decision to utilize a treatment that is not specifically approved by one of the boards is criminalized as well. Further, medical innovation is heavily taxed and in some instances prohibited. Rationing is overt and clearly imposed. Doctors are compensated not on the basis of the quality of their outcomes, but on the basis of services that they don’t provide.
I suggest that you take some time away from your busy practice and read the most recent iteration of the Senate bill and also, HR3200 which is the bill apparently passed in the House. It is, of course ironic that there is no Senate bill at the moment and the final bill is being written behind closed doors. One wonders what surprises await us there.
You are very partisan and spout most of the Dems talking points. In fact, the majority of Americans are highly satisfied with their health care arrangements. Here in California and elsewhere, Kaiser Permanente provides excellent medical services at reasonable costs without any of the regulatory overhead contained in the pending bills/proposals. I am a highly pleased participant in the Kaiser Senior Advantage program which I will lose if either the Senate or House bill passes. There are about 14 million seniors in the same position. So much for Obama’s promise that if you like your health care now, you won’t have to change. There are good solutions and the Kaiser model is one of them, but I defy you to spell out what portions of the pending proposals/bills appropriately address any the defects that you enumerate. Like so many on the left, facts just don’t seem to matter to you. Instead, we get these endless rants and political attacks.
Republicans have repeatedly proposed incremental changes that promise cost control, reduce irrational mandates, and address the issues of defensive medicine. Every economist who has addressed the cost problem has concluded that as long as we rely on third party payers, health consumers will have no incentives to participate in the control of utilization or of costs. Therefore, Republicans propose an expansion of health savings accounts which are under the control of the consumers and which encourage medical thrift. Medical related litigation imposes a heavy cost burden on the system not only from the huge costs associated with litigation itself, but also by encouraging the practice of defensive medicine which economists have estimated adds about 20% to the overall costs of medical services. (How are your malpractice premiums working out?) California and other states have enacted medical malpractice reform that has driven down these costs and there is much more to do. I say that as a litigating attorney that has practiced for nearly 40 years.
State mandates are out of control. In California, insurance must cover acupuncture, chiropractic, and a whole host of procedures and services that are outside of mainstream medicine. Likewise, in New York, Michigan and New Jersey (those are states where I have some familiarity) among others, there is a whole host of insurance mandates which drive up the costs of insurance and drive up the costs of medical services. The pending bills threaten to add to that mandate burden rather than reducing it to a baseline that will provide a reasonable level of medical services to insureds at reasonable costs. Again, in the opinion of every study that I have read, and I have read lots, allowing insurance to be sold and/or purchased across state lines would substantially increase competition and would drive down insurance costs especially with the mandate reform discussed above. Not one of these elements is contained in any of the pending bills.
Finally, the left holds up Medicare as the model. Medicare suffers a fraud loss that is estimated to be a minimum of 17% and as high as 25%. Medicare denies coverage much more frequently than private insurers. Finally, the reimbursement rates of medicare are generally inadequate to cover the actual delivery costs to the providers. The result is that the providers charge the insured at higher rates so as to cover that shortfall. This has been publicly confirmed both the Mayo and the Cleveland clinics.
Republicans acknowledge that the system has its flaws and that there are elements that should be reformed. However, they do not have the hubris to presume that they know how to completely take over 17% of the economy in 2000 pages. Moreover, Republicans do not believe that government is capable of efficiently managing very much. Go to your DMV for a lesson in government efficiency. Look at the pending bankruptcies of California, Michigan, New York and New Jersey to see how big government handles the business of the people. I have lived in all four states. I have always been interested in such matters. I have seen the train a’coming and it ain’t pretty.
By “none”, I was (badly) inferring the members of our little site. There are indeed some true Conservatives serving as Reps, and I see that number rising in 2010.
JFK’s book Profiles in Courage is billed as “a collection of stories describing acts of bravery and integrity by eight U.S. Senators”. Such a book couldn’t be written today due to lack of subject material.
Question: Who is it that sells their favors for money, and works at 1AM?
I’m sending him a photo of 30 silver pieces
http://bennelson.senate.gov/services/offices/
Any Senator who doesn’t now hold his vote in abeyance until he gets his own personal payout is really dumb.
For instance, Reed should demand he be appointed ambassador to Ireland if he loses his reelection.
That guy who took Obama’s Senate seat should demand to be appointed Ambassador to Sierra Leone.
Everyone with a Democrat Senator:
Please contact them and demand they withhold their vote until they can get a big pile of money for your state.
@Timothy
Good idea. Nelson, however, may look at the 30 pieces of silver as a campaign donation.
This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. Nelson had his price. The Dems are hoping that we are too stupid, and will forget about it by the time the mid-term elections come next November. That we’ll overlook the gazillions of taxes being collected. That we’ll be thankful for the pork being brought home.
SCUMER (Schumer) is my senior senator. He said he spent 13 hrs. in the room negotiating with Nelson and was immensely happy with the outcome. Do you think either he or the new junior senator from NY will listen to anyone. It’s like talking to the wind!
As a proud Nebraskan, I must apologize to the rest of America for the outrageous conduct of our senior Senator, Ben Nelson. Two-face Ben must be recalled, and thousands of my fellow conservatives in this state will do everything we can to remove this arrogant Democrat out of office.
@CISBlues: Isn’t he up in 2012?
Fox report describes the deal:
Make sure to see GOP Leader McConnell’s statement:
Why is Nelson a sellout but Landrieu a whore? Their both whores…in fact, ALL of the scumsucking pigs in Congress are whores to some extent.
Mike’s not going to like Erick’s latest: Nelson Caves; McConnell Strategy Fails.
So now 60% of the Senate supports going to a vote, those senators representing about 75% of the American population, which about a year ago overwhelmingly elected “the most liberal member of the Senate” as president . . . but Nelson is a “bad guy” for letting this piece of legislation championed by said president go to a vote of the full Senate and the House . . . which the voters chose to have dominated by the more liberal party? So that’s the con take?
Here is a hint, conservatives: win some elections and you, too, can muster 60 votes to pass a piece of legislation the other side doesn’t like. What’s that? Can’t be done? Conservatives can’t get to 60? Hmm . . . sounds to me like the American people have spoken!
Seems to me, cons, that if the status quo was so great, the voters would have sent conservatives to the presidency and majorities in the House and Senate. By sending liberals, the voters basically said that they don’t trust conservatives to solve the problem.
And where would they get that idea? Maybe it was the fact that those conservatives DID NOTHING when they had the majorities. And don’t give me the whiney “liberals blocked everything.” That’s b.s. because (a) liberals could not block anything in the House and (b) you could have peeled off the more conservatives Dems (the Nelsons, Lincoln, all those farm state Dems) if they had tried a little. But there was no proposal and no will from the right to actually solve the rather obvious problems. So we have what we have now: a more liberal approach because conservatives never did shiite when they had a chance.
Abortions are ok if they happen outside of Nebraska?
And Mitch McConnell . . . “jamming through”? “Bob and weave”? Who do you think you are kidding? Health care and the various options have been argued about for the last nine months! You mook, this is not some “middle of the night” bill. Anyone who wants to know anything about it knows what has been discussed ad nauseum! “Jam it through”? Please! Its passing the weekend of Christmas because you kept trying to delay it, you goofus! But the silly cranks yelling at town hall meetings strategy did not work. Your “Hitler” and “death panels” arguments did not work. And Bill Kristol’s insane “our current system is great” argument is laughed at by anyone with a brain.
Conservatives could have decided they wanted to work with the majority Dems. They chose not to . . . they chose the whining and Tea Party tactic instead. It just like the 2008 “Joe the Plumber” strategy is an utter failure. So deal with it and move on, Mitch . . . nothing to see here anymore.
@John Cooper: If it’s legal in your state you and Erick ought to consider getting hitched 🙂
Actually the Redstate piece was written by Sean Davis. I wonder if he realizes that we only have 40 votes in the Senate and the Dems have 60?
And to give McConnell no credit for the strategy which effectively shifted the poll numbers which BROB will now ignore seems to me to be mean spirited and petulant.
Again, I didn’t read one word from Sean spelling out a strategy that would have resulted in this bill being dead.
Methinks some of the folks at Redstate like to make a lot of noise and get a lot of attention which only serves to undermine our long term efforts by keeping conservatives angry and disappointed with our leadership.
How old are those Redstate characters anyway? I’ve been following these political issues for DECADES and I’ve never been more proud of the united effort being put forward by our GOP team. Even if we had killed this bill, there would still be so-called conservatives out there complaining that it wasn’t good enough. As I have said before, some of these folks do nothing but sit on the sidelines and complain. I wonder how many campaigns they have personally worked on?
I’m not going to get into a food fight with Redstate (but for the record, YOU started it). I would however ask you again exactly what you thought McConnell could have done that would be more effective??????
@B-Rob: Since you are so interested in the will of the American people perhaps you need to look at the opinion polls on this topic:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html
Shame on Bill Nelson for selling out the American people. He is nothing but a wh*re for Obama.
Contact info for Senate Dem Moderates. Links for Facebook, Twitter, Email and phone numbers:
http://healthcare.nrsc.org/action-center/?tr=y&auid=5730333
Er, Mike, hate to have to break this down to you but:
1) As Nelson mentioned in his press conference, THIS BILL has not been completed, so there is no “public opinion poll” on it. So what
2) As many have pointed, out, many people oppose the previous health care proposals because they don’t go far enough. It is not a pro-con “we want the status quo” no, as much as a “this is an insurance company sell-out” no for many people polled.
3) We have a representative system for a reason. I bet in many states, if you polled people, they would not want to pay anything for defense. And in many other states, they would not want to pay anything for poverty programs. If you polled the South, they would not have wanted the Civil Rights Acts that finally freed Black people from proto-slavery. But luckily we didn’t listen to that nonsense, either, did we? But that ain’t how we govern our country. We do it by electing representatives to vote on the big picture.
4) This is a massive fail on the part of the GOP. They decided to do nothing to get a compromise, and now look what it got them? Failure.
And will say it again and again: unless and until the GOP finds someone other than an old White guy with a Southern twang to tell their story, they will continue to lose the cities and suburbs, which contain the mass of the US population. The fact that it was a Red State Dem, Nelson, who put the Dems over the top should send a message about the weakness of the GOP right now: he wasn’t even afraid to vote with the libs!
5) The only people arguing for the status quo were those tea-bagger nuts and other conservatives. The rest of America realizes that, Cleveland Clinic notwithstanding, we have some serious problems with the health care and insurance systems. Islands of excellence in a sea of mediocrity that results in worse health care outcomes than our competitors in western Europe. Obama, with the COBRA subsidy and this thing, has at least done something to address it. Will it work? Who knows. But he did not do what the conservatives would have done — which is sit around with their thumbs up their poopers thinking tax cuts and tort reform will actually get an unemployed man insurance coverage.
6) The GOP simply dropped the ball. Did they ever actually produce a plan like they said in September that they would? And, no, I don’t mean those six and seven year old two page documents that the GOP House and Senate never even proposed. I mean a real plan that dealt with the coverage issues, the employment linkage problems, etc. Nope, they didn’t. And when a real problem is present, a potentially faulty plan that might work is better than no plan at all.
Those Senators may “represent” about 75% of the American population, however they are deliberately ignoring the across the spectrum polling of disapproval. In other words, in their arrogance, they choose to *not* represent what their constituents want because “they know best”.
Nelson is a “bad guy” because he, like others, allowed his vote to be purchased. Or, as the quote/punchline attributed to George Bernard Shaw goes, we’ve already established what Nelson and other Congressional members are…. and evidently they haggled and found the right price.
Well, Mr. Omnipotent, your seer skills must be impressive indeed, since the backroom formulated amendments and text of bills with all changes has not been posted for that 72 hours… nay, not even when they were asking for votes… for all to read. Devil in the details, and you… as a lawyer… know that well. But I guess your particular brand of ethics dictate personal examination and debate on what transpired in those back rooms is purely optional.
Interesting since those “silly cranks” are those that sent the bozos to these chambers. And again, consistantly polls show we “silly cranks” are in the majority for non-support of “remaking” instead of “reforming” health care.
Now I suppose if it’s only those corrupt scumbag elected elite who are the only ones you consider to have “a brain”, or the minority who is looking for a government handout and believes healthcare is actually free, you might have a point. But look around… what you witness is the will of the “we the people” being roughshod run over by elected ins, and with their price for doing so on full display.
Yet this is just fantastic in your view? You are one sick puppy.
Ahhh… typical slum lawyer doublespeak. Priceless:
Take your pick, billy bob. It can’t be “ad nauseum” and old hat stuff, and not complete with no public opinion at the same time.
Again, your seer skills appear to be lacking, and no one should be voting on bills they have not read, and were reconstructed and dabbled with in the back rooms out of sight.
@B-Rob: Hate to break it to you pal, but public opinion on this issue is overwhelming. Americans prefer NO BILL AT ALL over the backroom secret bill loaded with favors for certain senators and special interests your team has cooked up!
You can play all the word games you want but you are not fooling anyone but yourself.
I guess that makes you a fool. That won’t surprise too many around here.
Ah… about that pesky clause in the oath taken at swearing into office:
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.”
Seems to me that our elected crooks and liars have conveniently ignored this.
Let me go on record by saying that they are now to be considered perjurers and that
THEY are domestic enemies!!! I am so disgusted that our unholy triumvirate are now reduced to bribes, threats and coercian! THEY MUST GO!!!
@R-Bob…
You made a few good points, but erased any credibility you had when you used the phrase “tea-bagging” and called the people who attend Tea Party protests ‘nuts’. Doing so revealed that you are most likely a pimply-faced college student posting from your taxpayer-provided dorm room. Either that or an SEIU-member broom pusher…
You needed to kick over a few more rocks, John Cooper. Try Chicago lawyer
@Mike’s America
Sorry, but I’m already married (39 years to the same beautiful woman who may well be a better shot than I am, and knows how to dress out the game she shoots.)
I think Erick (or Sean?) makes some good points, as do you. I just think McConnell needs to bone up on his parliamentary procedure or have a Republican parliamentarian on the floor at all times to prevent fiascos like the Coburn/Sanders f**kup. He just seems like he always brings a knife to a gun fight, but hopefully I’m wrong about that.
To enrage you further, here’s something from a blog I just found today – Ignarus Semino Dominatus (I think that means “Ignorance Breeds Tyranny) It is Time for Republican Leaders to Step Down; on Principle
Yup, I’m a Tea Partier…
Mata–
(In my best John Belushi voice in the Blues Brothers) I hate Chicago lawyers. (grin)
@John Cooper: I’m glad you won’t be “getting a room” with Erick from Redstate:)
I’m glad to hear you are a tea partier. I’m a big booster of that movement and went to my own here. I also dropped in at the Town Hall my Congressman Joe “YOU LIE” Wilson held here this summer.
I’ve also taken my unique opportunity as a SC conservative to personally confront the 2008 GOP prospective presidential nominees and attempt to hold their feet to the fire of conservatism.
Don’t make me go back and reprint my ties to Reagan, Ashbrook, Buckley, Goldwater, Phyllis Schlafly, Phil Crane et. al. You know I can do it.
Now, on to your next point, I can’t think of anything more destructive to the longterm success of the conservative movement than to impose yet ANOTHER restriction on our elected officials that is not also imposed on Democrats. The idea that every GOP official who proposed an earmark should be purged from the party is INSANE.
Heck, there are some on our side who want to ditch John Boehner from the House leadership and yet he’s never proposed an earmark. Where does this fratricide end?
Some of the folks putting forward this B.S. are more interested in destroying the GOP than building a viable conservative governing majority.
Question John Cooper: Did you vote for Ross Perot in either 1992 or 1996? If so, are you happy with the result? Eight years of Bill Clinton?
B-Rob, I am surprised you willingly swallow propganda such as that. Living in the midwest, Kansas myself, most city folk would perfer that the taxes collected at a State and Federal level would be spent within the very programs the taxes were orginaly designed to collect for: Defense and physical Infrastructure as in Roads and public faclities. Our Federal Government was to provide a very bare bones platform of Law by supplying a framework to unify the various States and their vastly different cultures and Laws together with the Bill of Rights and the Consitution and by providing a unified National Military defense while allowing the States to maintain their indvidual Soverignty. The current Democrats are in starke violation of Consitutional restraints and Oath they took when they were sworn into office, and the very Republic represenation you champion is expressing massive dissent en masse against Democrats who have squandered our tax dollars and have taken massive ammounts of loans since 2006 (the year Democrats became the majority). Our taxes are not being used propperly and we are being taxed without any form of representation at all and yet I’m surprised people have not started to publicly declare, “No Taxation without Representation!” The GOP have been minimalized and voted out of their power back in 2006 within both chambers, so they have already gotten their wake up call.
The GOP as you so clearly want to blame for, let alone insult by claiming they’ve done nothing, have drafted series of reforms for Healthcare and for Economical recovery that would target massive problems within a business’s budget:
Taxations
Lawsuit fees
Client/Internal Fraud.
Union inflated worker wages
Rising Minimal Wage.
Credit Fraud.
And yet, what is the “Status Quo?” A good question to ask, and you have failed to detail how you view the Status Quo. Democrats have always been a tradtional supporter of the orginal Status Quo that the British had emplaced on the orginal 13 colonies:
High taxtion, Governmental mandates (Navigation Act/Tea Tax/Molases Act/Stamp Act), Impressment (aka Enslavement) into Military service (Modern Day Draft concepts), Direct silencing of Opposing sides with physical force, and finaly denial of fair Representation.
These were the orginal Status Quo British Colonists revolted against and finaly rebelled against to become These United States of America and yet here we are with a modern day variant of the Navigation act within Healthcare yet We the People of These States of America are denied being able to read the very Bill our elected officals want to impress and mandate onto us with physical force if need be. This is what the Democrats want, the total embracement of the orginal Status Quo that the British Empire had placed and yet you swallow all it down as if it’s a grand thing to fight the “Status Quo of the Republicans.”
What has been the Republican’s Status Quo since political introduction before the American Civil War? Let’s see, then, Republicans were viewed as the Liberal group who’se Status Quo mandates were:
Lower Taxation, Limited Governmental powers with no mandates, Opposing views freely allowed to express their point of view within debate, Fair Representation of all Men of America, Abolishment of Enslavement.
These are the Status Quo of the Tea Party group and if you, B-Bob wish to be taken seriously should not use slurs and insults to rationalize your side of the problem. Petty namcalling is not called for against your opposition, nor will such insults change the fact that majority Americans have been and always will be fiscaly conservative with their private lives. Only fools will refuse to live within their means and take on large amounts of debt to satisfy their greed. The platform of the Tea Party Protest groups is demanding our Government to cease with living off of a proverbial credit cards given to them from China and the European Union and to lower taxation.
California’s State Government is a perfect culture sample of what our Federal Government is doing and what the Population is responding to the horrible Governmental mistakes and mandates imposed. Farmland has been destroyed by Government Mandated laws to save a fish only about an inch long, destroying many personal lives and business in the argiculture business forcing people to pack up and relocate out of state. A sudden extra 10 percent hike in State Tax withholdings on all workers in that State has caused an influx migration to Nevada and other states with far lower or no State Income Tax to spare what personal income they have to afford food and shelter. The Exodus of residents of California has further placed a strain on the State Budget as these were to be what is considered a, “Static revenue stream” by Economists whom supported the sudden income withholding and there are rumors that withholding might go up to 15 or 20 percent if things keep souring for revenue. This enviroment is the perfect situation to give birth to an Anti-Taxation/Governmental Mandate protest group such as the Tea Party.
And finaly, what proof do you have that details a GOP civil war is going on? The only issue right now that is happening with the GOP is hardly a Civil war. Moderates within the GOP are losing ground not within the GOP itself but by Tea Party protestors and the GOP is on a losing battle against a Tea Party take over in terms of Policy due to Primary races for 2010 seats of Governership, Senator, and Congressman positions. The greatest example of this political shift in stance is embodied within Allen West’s Florida Congressional Seat race, this man represents the Tea Party mentality and nature of what must be done to our Government.
The only party that seems to be in any form of civil dispute right now would be the Democrats come in 2010 due to how the DNC primaries’ voting system is done and a heavy push to get Democrats whom have some variant form of Conservative policies be a direct competition that they’ll face from the GOP/Independent Groups (both of which are slanted heavily towards fiscal conservatisim).
Hey thanks for all the trackbacks over the last couple of months, Moonbat Patrol is new and taking off slow, and your trackbacks have been a big help.
Merry Christmas to all, Kynikos
@Mike’s America
No, I never voted for Perot (although to my everlasting shame I voted for Carter when I was young and stoopid). I admired how Perot got his employees which were taken hostage out of Iran, but when he announced that if elected, his first order of business would be to double the budget for the IRS, that ended it for me. Obviously, he wasn’t a ‘small government’ advocate after all.
No, I am NOT a third party advocate. My goal is to take over the Republican Party from the grass roots level on up, which is why I am tough on the RINOs currently infesting DC. I have high standards for my representatives. I expect them to be competent at their job. When they aren’t, I say so, as you have noted.
I’ve sent money to Joe Wilson, Doug Hoffman, and Danny Tarkanian. I’m active in the Asheville Tea Party and spend a lot of personal time there.
We’re on the same side, my friend, and keep up the great posts.
@John Cooper: Voted for Carter and you’re lecturing McConnell?
Good thing we don’t have a movement to ban ex-Carter voters from the GOP!
I hope you saw my post on Marco Rubio:
I’ll take a conservative over a RINO in a GOP primary any day.
But I’ll take a RINO over a Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi Democrat in a general election if that’s the choice.
This is not to say that I don’t support the Tea Party movement to take back the GOP. The County, State and National Party need to be shook up and reorganized and desperately need an infusion of enthusiastic organizers with new ideas.
My worry is that some of your FriedState (Redstate) friends have developed a bad habit of picking up their marbles and going home if they don’t get their way 100%. I first noticed that tendency in 2006 when some of them thought it would be a good idea to “teach the GOP a lesson” and sit it out in 2006. I wonder how they feel about that now after years of rule by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid?
Frankly, I’m not interested in starting up the whole RINO debate all over again. But I would just point out that a “purge” mentality in the GOP is a sure loser.
As we are witnessing today, the issues here are too important to see us divide our strength with party infighting. Obama, Reid and Pelosi would love to see us do that and have been stoking that kind of talk since 2006. I prefer not to fall prey to their manipulations.
Together we win.
“If you’re not a liberal at 20, you haven’t got a heart. If you’re not a conservative at 40, you haven’t got a brain.” –Winston Churchill
I’ve freely admitted that I didn’t have a brain at age 20. I’d like to think that I’ve learned a few things in my later years. One thing I’ve learned along the way is that trying to appease bullies like McConnell was trying to do earlier is a losing strategy.
Actually, I think I learned that lesson in 5th grade when confronted with a schoolyard bully. Playing nice didn’t work then, and – as we have seen – it doesn’t work in the Senate.
Results matter, not just ‘good intentions’.
@John Cooper:
It’s a great quote; but did Churchill really say it? I’ve never found anyone ever able to verify the claim.
@John Cooper: I don’t agree that McConnell was trying to “appease bullies.” Perhaps you would like to share some examples from the junior league at Fried State to back up that claim.
But then, what do I know…. I was a conservative at 20 and you know what that means. (And for the record, STILL a conservative!)
And the Churchill Centre backs up Wordsmith:
P.S. Still 75% are satisfied with the job Senate GOP is doing:
http://polldaddy.com/polls/results.php?id=2383516
Our Western culture is no longer willing to fight for values and the enemy knows that. Athenian democracy did not last. We are lead by the most corrupt leaders America has ever known who only care about themselves and power, not the will of the people. Yet, we let them off the hook…it only reflects on our values and I am saddened that I no longer live in the America that I came to so many decades ago.
Weep, dear repentant Obama voter, weep for the democracy you helped destroy! What’s that you say, “I didn’t vote for this!”? Don’t give me that! As surely as you voted for the One because you panicked over the banking meltdown, or because he was relatively young, and articulate, or because “history can’t wait!” As surely as you voted for him for all these reasons, you voted for this. Granted, the lovestruck MSM didn’t report a lot of the negative stuff, but the information was out there. You, however didn’t want to hear it. You didn’t want to hear the negative stuff, you only wanted to hear Hope and Change. Well, I don’t know about Hope, but you got Change. Now, the time has come for us all to reap the bitter harvest of the seeds you so rashly and thoughtlessly sowed in November ’08. Small consolation though it is, at least my conscience is clear.
Well….that’s all folks
liberals you own this mess.
you are a party of disastrous ideas and disastrous policies. and in every state where liberal ideas are given free reign, we know the outcome. I am so tired of trying to save idiots from themselves. the darwin award goes to all those morons who voted democrat. good luck with your liberal hell hole.
Ah, but all you miss out the point of Reid’s hold over the conservatives: Was Nelson bought out – Or BLACKMAILED? http://www.rickhyatt.freeservers.com -> Chandra/Condit/Cheney… 9/11?
I don’t think I will benefit a lot from the health care bill.
But it helps 12-20 million uninsured Americans to get healthcare (just like they do in every single developed nation on earth…except the us)….if it bars Insurance companies from denying someone coverage because he has diabetes or high blood pressure or a pacemaker…if it closes the donut hole on senior citizens perscriptions…I’m for it.
It may or may not cost a lot…but if we can spend 800 billion dollars (and still counting) bringing freedom and democracy to the people of Iraq, training their army, equipping their police force, biling their bridges, roads, schools and hospitals and providing grants to their businessmen …then I think the least we owe our own people is equal treatment.
I’d hate to think there are some Americans who think it’s better to help some unknown foreigners in a far off land than it is our own American family here at home.
That would be, in my estimation, very unamerican.
@ Mike’s America
Well, let’s see. McConnell has gone along with agreements to limit debate time and limit the amendments that can be offered. He’s gone along with agreements to automatically withdraw Republican amendments if they didn’t get 60 votes, rather than the usual 51. He’s negotiated agreements which allow the meaningful Republican amendments to be easily superseded by meaningless, Democratic, face-saving amendments. He’s repeatedly failed to use the parliamentary weapons at his disposal.
RedState has a disturbing synopsis of McConnell’s track record posted now. I wasn’t aware that McConnell was the Republican manager for McCain-Feingold Bill and the Motor-Voter Bill – both of which ended up passing in spite of his ‘masterful’ opposition. I think if McConnell were a football coach, he would have been sacked by now with a record like that. But that’s just me.
“Junior League?” “Fried-State?” Don’t you think it’s kind of childish to resort to name-calling like that? That kind of stuff goes over really well on the DailyKos, but I’m surprised to see it here. Well, whatever…
Iif people weren’t pissed at the power-drunk Dems before, they likely are now…
These tools like Nelson will soon regret the day they did this for Obama, he’ll pull all them right-over the abyss with him… and the coming GOP majority will just rescind it anyway-
http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com
@Norris Hall, withall due respect, your knowledge of Constitutional powers is deplorable.
A free and thriving Arab democracy in Iran, the garden spot and heart of the Islamic caliphate, is a nation security issue. Having an ally there instead of a dedicated enemy is integral to self defense and acquisition of intel has everything to do with securing the borders… the federal government’s prime Constitutional task.
On the other hand, making sure everyone purchases insurance… illegal immigrants plus those who choose not to purchase it, as well as those who cannot afford it… is no where within Constitutional powers and a hideous misinterpretation of the general welfare clause.
Additionally, you have deplorable knowledge of the health care system. The only way anyone can be denied pre’existing conditions… diabetes or any other… is if they are applying for individual plans. No group plan is allowed to deny for that reason, and the max they can withhold benefits is for 12 months.
You’re being instructed via lies disguised as talking points. If the cure for eliminating pre’existing conditions is to have “group” plans, then the answer is to create more “groups”. To some extent this legislation may accomplish this… but not via the obvious channels. They are creating an “exchange”… rather a one stop shopping site to compare plans… and issuing mandates about pre’existing conditions. Then they are also mandating that those who are guaranteed right up front to be incurring higher medicals costs be charged no more than those who will not be burdening the system.
This is like forcing you to pay for 25 movie rentals a month when you only rent one a month, merely to cover the costs of those who do rent 25 a month.
To top the whole thing off, there is no cost reform of substance… last we knew with a bill we could read… included in this nonsense.
You say you won’t likely benefit. What you havent’ figured out yet is how dearly you will be paying.
@Norris Hallplays the “UNAMERICAN” card! Why is it you George Soros parrots are so free to throw that name around? Is it because you have a much closer personal knowledge of what it is like to be unAmerican than most of us?
As for covering the uninsured like every other decent country in the world, why does the Senate bill still leave 23 million uninsured?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/health/compare-health-plans-2009/
And why if this matter is so urgent that we cannot even take a few days to read the bill does the coverage for the few new insured not start FOR YEARS?
@John Cooper: No, I don’t think it’s childish to resort to some namecalling where Red State is concerned. It’s clear they have a vendetta against McConnell and that gives me reason to doubt the claims that McConnell is an appeaser.
I’m sure they’d have some choice phrases to describe me. But then, I can always drag out my lifetime associations with the founding fathers of conservatism and ask them: What have you done that’s actually ACHIEVED any of the objectives you claim to represent.
That’s not a personal swipe at you. But I do want to warn you that not all of the folks you are listening to have the best long term interests of conservatism at heart.
Ben Nelson,
Profile in cowardice.
Republican politicians should start circulating the notion that as soon as they regain a majority (2010), they will act as quickly as the Dems have to make sure all congress members, current and retired, are subject to the provisions of the laws they pass. I think this would be a wildly popular concept, and difficult to rebut. Though Obama might veto such legislation, it would ensure his lame duck status in a one term presidency.
Dems may think they can rig elections with Acorn and SEIU, but they cannot overcome the tidal wave numbers (55-65%) that oppose them.
This still has to go to conference next year. Then Pelosi is going to have to crack a pretty big whip to keep her folks in line. There will have to be more pay-offs. The Black Caucus, The Hispanic Caucus, and The Moonbat Caucus will all have to be paid off to keep the bill in the form needed to get 60 votes in the Senate. Then, if if passes and President Obama signs it, it will end up in the Supreme Court the first time someone is mandated to buy insurance. I feel pretty confident that Kennedy will vote with Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas on this one. They may even get Soto-Mayor, since she’s such a strict constitutionalist. /sacr
Another blogger, one of my fellow medical professionals wrote:
“The current health care system works nothing like a free market system. Enormous barriers to market entry and competition permeate a heavily-regulated system. Tax schemes skew consumption and resource allocation; government backed guilds control the supply of providers. We have heavy regulation and control of medical devices and medications; government-funded research is patented for private profit and patent laws function as price supports. The government says who can treat me, how they can treat me, what I can and can’t put into my body and from whom I may make purchases of what I put in my body.”
She is absolutely right. And Americans will continue to pay 40 to 60% more for medical outcomes comparable to those achieved by other first world economies because pinhead conservatives defend, tooth and nail, a professional guild system and a highly regulated marketplace that raises costs to patients, while pretending that they are defending free market principles and small government. Conservatives are, for the most part, absolutely clueless about the economics of the American health care system that has largely been cobbled together and regulated on the basis of rent seeking. Conservatives have offered nothing, zero, zip, nada, to stem consumer bleeding that fills private pockets with the gains of government granted privilege and marketplace regulation.
Until I hear something indicating that conservatives have even the remotest clue about the economics of health care, I will take their complaints about democrats as a case of self-deluding black pot-kettle syndrome. Had conservatives actually acknowledged, in some fashion, the underlying tension between government regulation of quality and pricing, we could have had an interesting discussion. As the debate actually unfolded, it was nothing more than a collision of nitwit partisanship on both sides.
@A working Doc
Replace the word Conservative with Republican, and I agree with you. The two are not the same.
Milton Friedman, The Heritage Foundation, Ayn Rand, Cato….Those are in direct opposition to the likes of McCain, Bush and others like them.
I suggest you look around more, especially on this site. There are lots of Republicans who see what you see, and have expressed better ideas. Unfortunately, none of them are elected yet.
@A working Doc: I’m sorry you missed the many GOP elected officials, including a number of physicians, who expressed the same concerns you have.
You can’t be blamed for not hearing about as their opinions are not covered by the media and Democrats vote against every single one of their amendments to legislation.
And so, I disagree with Patvann that “none” of these common sense conservatives have been elected yet.
To a Working Doc: Jeffery Flier, Dean of the Harvard Med School has written extensively that the bills proposed by the Dems do absolutely nothing to reduce costs (or bend the curve as the big O is want to say), do nothing to improve the quality or quantity of medical services presently available to Americans, and do nothing to improve medical outcomes. I tend to trust his perspectives as it took considerable courage for him to go public in the context of the political realities of medical academia. Indeed, Dean Flier’s view is also the consensus of every responsible medical professional who has read the bills, understands the proposed structures and has considered the matter. It is also the conclusion of the CBO, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic. Doc, these guys have credibility. The current bills layer on over one hundred bureaucratic boards and agencies, add hundreds of thousands of government employees, and add further and enormous complexities to the problems that you perceive not to mention the huge costs, extensive taxation and inevitable fiscal waste. In other words, the evils which you describe (and in my opinion greatly exaggerate), are only aggravated by the pending measures. The fact that the proposed “reforms” are supported by approximately 40% of the population and opposed by approximately 60% suggests that Americans aren’t stupid. Finally, the introduction of criminal penalties into the health care delivery system should open your eyes wide. Not only is the failure to obtain medical insurance criminalized, but a doctor’s decision to utilize a treatment that is not specifically approved by one of the boards is criminalized as well. Further, medical innovation is heavily taxed and in some instances prohibited. Rationing is overt and clearly imposed. Doctors are compensated not on the basis of the quality of their outcomes, but on the basis of services that they don’t provide.
I suggest that you take some time away from your busy practice and read the most recent iteration of the Senate bill and also, HR3200 which is the bill apparently passed in the House. It is, of course ironic that there is no Senate bill at the moment and the final bill is being written behind closed doors. One wonders what surprises await us there.
You are very partisan and spout most of the Dems talking points. In fact, the majority of Americans are highly satisfied with their health care arrangements. Here in California and elsewhere, Kaiser Permanente provides excellent medical services at reasonable costs without any of the regulatory overhead contained in the pending bills/proposals. I am a highly pleased participant in the Kaiser Senior Advantage program which I will lose if either the Senate or House bill passes. There are about 14 million seniors in the same position. So much for Obama’s promise that if you like your health care now, you won’t have to change. There are good solutions and the Kaiser model is one of them, but I defy you to spell out what portions of the pending proposals/bills appropriately address any the defects that you enumerate. Like so many on the left, facts just don’t seem to matter to you. Instead, we get these endless rants and political attacks.
Republicans have repeatedly proposed incremental changes that promise cost control, reduce irrational mandates, and address the issues of defensive medicine. Every economist who has addressed the cost problem has concluded that as long as we rely on third party payers, health consumers will have no incentives to participate in the control of utilization or of costs. Therefore, Republicans propose an expansion of health savings accounts which are under the control of the consumers and which encourage medical thrift. Medical related litigation imposes a heavy cost burden on the system not only from the huge costs associated with litigation itself, but also by encouraging the practice of defensive medicine which economists have estimated adds about 20% to the overall costs of medical services. (How are your malpractice premiums working out?) California and other states have enacted medical malpractice reform that has driven down these costs and there is much more to do. I say that as a litigating attorney that has practiced for nearly 40 years.
State mandates are out of control. In California, insurance must cover acupuncture, chiropractic, and a whole host of procedures and services that are outside of mainstream medicine. Likewise, in New York, Michigan and New Jersey (those are states where I have some familiarity) among others, there is a whole host of insurance mandates which drive up the costs of insurance and drive up the costs of medical services. The pending bills threaten to add to that mandate burden rather than reducing it to a baseline that will provide a reasonable level of medical services to insureds at reasonable costs. Again, in the opinion of every study that I have read, and I have read lots, allowing insurance to be sold and/or purchased across state lines would substantially increase competition and would drive down insurance costs especially with the mandate reform discussed above. Not one of these elements is contained in any of the pending bills.
Finally, the left holds up Medicare as the model. Medicare suffers a fraud loss that is estimated to be a minimum of 17% and as high as 25%. Medicare denies coverage much more frequently than private insurers. Finally, the reimbursement rates of medicare are generally inadequate to cover the actual delivery costs to the providers. The result is that the providers charge the insured at higher rates so as to cover that shortfall. This has been publicly confirmed both the Mayo and the Cleveland clinics.
Republicans acknowledge that the system has its flaws and that there are elements that should be reformed. However, they do not have the hubris to presume that they know how to completely take over 17% of the economy in 2000 pages. Moreover, Republicans do not believe that government is capable of efficiently managing very much. Go to your DMV for a lesson in government efficiency. Look at the pending bankruptcies of California, Michigan, New York and New Jersey to see how big government handles the business of the people. I have lived in all four states. I have always been interested in such matters. I have seen the train a’coming and it ain’t pretty.
Disturber.
@Mike
By “none”, I was (badly) inferring the members of our little site. There are indeed some true Conservatives serving as Reps, and I see that number rising in 2010.
@ Disturber:
JFK’s book Profiles in Courage is billed as “a collection of stories describing acts of bravery and integrity by eight U.S. Senators”. Such a book couldn’t be written today due to lack of subject material.
Question: Who is it that sells their favors for money, and works at 1AM?
Answer: The U.S. Senate, of course.