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Patvann
14 years ago
I voted yes, but I could list at least a dozen more things that I think they could and SHOULD be doing.
I also don’t trust them yet. Too many dirtbags are still around from the 2000-2006 period.
The bottom line for me is that considering what they’re up against, they are holding the line, but they have a long way to go until I can register as a republican.
SoCal Chris
14 years ago
Voted “Yes”!
Skookum
14 years ago
Yes. Is it easier for the Senate GOP to find their moral compass now that the rudderless ship Obama seems destined to crash on the rocks? It has not been one year since the Fraud entered the White House and began his gradual descent into ignominy, it doesn’t seem possible that this manufactured persona could regain popular support with his rogues’ gallery of incompetence he has surrounded himself with; but what if he does regain momentum at some point in the next three years, will our GOP maintain their stance against this Progressive Marxism?
Remember, the Liberal base and our younger generations have been subjected to Marxist indoctrination by the public education system and the university system for decades, it is amazing that they are capable of discerning the cancerous core of our Socialist movement and the Global Warming Hoax. After years of subtle brainwashing by the majority of our educators, a process that is still in process, our younger generations may be ill-equipped to resist the siren’s call to Marxism.
Consequently, we who stand guard on the ramparts of Liberty must maintain our vigilance and not become complacent in favorable poll numbers, for it is us and talk radio who have led this fight against tyranny. Take pride in our victories, but remember there is a long way to go before the Marxist in the White House retires in disgrace and this malignancy of international Marxism is exposed and destroyed.
Old Ez
14 years ago
Gonna have to throw an H and an e and a great big old double L NO on that. They can say they’re trying to stop that train, but I ain’t believing ’em’ till they quit shoveling coal in the hotbox. Just because they don’t intend on sticking it to us as far, fast, or deep as the other guys, don’t mean we ain’t still getting a scrogging.
When I voted, 75 percent of you’all voted ‘agin’ me, and all the comments went the other way. We just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause personally, I’m sore. I’ve been scrogged all I’m gonna be scrogged without at least hollering NO MORE, PERIOD!
If the Pub’s continue doing like they’re doing, THIS BILL WILL PASS! They ain’t doing one blessed thang but winking at the Dem’s with a “Let us slow ‘er’ down a mite so we can git re-elected and we promise we’ll let you have whatever you’all want in the long run and that-a-way you’all won’t have-ta worry bout fresh meat in here in 2010 trying to really stopper-up the works!”
Mark my words, if a HUGE public outcry doesn’t happen, this bill will pass and almost every one of the black stalk mf’ers will be re-elected from both parties.
John Cooper
14 years ago
Gotta’ vote no on this. Here’s a letter-to-editor I sent yesterday in which I heavily borrowed from Erick at RedState:
The proposed healthcare legislation being debated in the Senate is probably the worst piece of legislation ever considered by the United States Congress. It is the most intrusive, most damaging, most costly, most dangerous bill to the liberty of individual Americans that Congress has ever considered. If there is any bill that deserves being stopped, it is this one.
The Senate has parliamentary rules and procedures that give the minority the ability to stall legislation, but the Republicans refuse to use them. Instead, they continue to play nice with their “good friends on the other side of the isle”. They keep introducing one amendment after another to “make the bill better” – which only provides cover for a few wavering Democrats, thus insuring the final passage of the bill
It’s sickening to watch the politeness of the Republicans as they allow our freedom slip away. They have the power to stop this bill, but apparently their “leadership” prefers to “get along” rather than make a stand for freedom.
If this abomination passes, history will record that the Republicans were ever-so-polite and acted the perfect gentlemen as the American Experiment was stabbed in the back and lie dying on the Senate floor.
The paper to which I submitted this letter has a 200 word limit, so I had to cut out some of my best lines, like for example: ” Meanwhile, those “good friends” continue to slur them openly on the Senate floor and no-doubt laugh at their naivete in the cloakrooms. ”
I freely admit that if McConnell has a plan, it is too nuanced for me to understand.
On CSPAN I saw a glimmer of hope yesterday afternoon, though. Sen. McConnell actually uttered the forbidden words, “I object!”, as he handed a motion for cloture on the Crapo Amendment to the clerk. Maybe, just maybe, McConnell has located his long-lost cojones.
Kevin
14 years ago
Voted NO! I won’t be satisfied until this thing is so dead they are all scared to bring it up again.
OLDPUPPYMAX
14 years ago
I’l begin to have some faith in senate republicans when Snowe, Voinovich, McCain, Grahmnesty, Collins, HATCH and several others are in their home states on a permanent basis. Replace these treasonous, perpetual RINOs with Demint-type voices and republicans will control both houses for decades to come.
bill-tb
14 years ago
Trust but verify … I think they could go off the rails any second …
Interesting that we have so many strong voices arguing against the job our Senate GOP team is doing. Again, considering how weak their numerical position in the senate is and yet how united and they have become and relatively successful in slowing down this train wreck, I’d have to ask what steps the naysayers suggest we take that would be EFFECTIVE without alienating the Indepdents who are flocking to our side????
It doesn’t do much good to bitch if you don’t have a BETTER idea!
Still, I note that the satisfieds outnumber the unsatisfieds by 3 to 1.
P.S. @OLDPUPPYMAX: I hope you are donating money to fund possible replacements in those races. Even still, you’re probabaly going to be disappointed for a long, long time and that only plays into the hands of Obama.
URI
14 years ago
Yes and Senator Barroso is doing a great job! I have to say that Pat Robertson from Kansas was the best with his cactus allegory. Who knew that the “government channel” will be the one to keep us all informed!
I support our GOP and there is no need for a Third Party. That will only ensured that Zero and his croonies will be in power for a long time.
Keep an eye on Lt. Col. Allen West in Florida. He is running for Congress. Great story!
John Cooper
14 years ago
Mike’s America–
I think the “better idea” is to use parliamentary procedures to shut down the Senate with objection after objection until this bill dies a natural death. (See: Fight. over at RedState) Week by week more Americans turn against this abomination of a bill, and the longer it can be delayed, the better chance there is that it will die.
I do see some signs that McConnell is finally growing a set of cohones, though. If you watched CSPAN yesterday, he actually used the words “I object!” twice. I think this little exchange at the end of the day is the reason that the Senate is not talking health care today:
Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. President, we have been trying for days to get an agreement to have votes on the health care measure, which our friends on the other side have said is so important to the American people and must be acted upon before Christmas. Specifically, the pending Crapo amendment has been there since last Tuesday. It now becomes clear to me the majority simply does not want to have any more votes, presumably pending these discussions that are going on behind closed doors on a bill that almost nobody in the Senate has seen. Therefore, I send a cloture motion to the desk on the Crapo amendment.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The cloture motion having been presented under rule XXII, the Chair directs the clerk to read the motion.
The legislative clerk read as follows:
Cloture Motion
We, the undersigned Senators, in accordance with the provisions of rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate, do hereby move to bring to a close debate on the pending Crapo motion to commit H.R. 3590, a bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify the first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees. [list of sponsors omitted for brevity]
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Republican leader is recognized.
Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. President, I hope we can bring to fruition a consent agreement to allow us to begin to vote. Yesterday, against considerable opposition on my own side, I basically backed down and offered the consent agreement the majority leader had offered a few days ago, which would have allowed our Democratic friends to have a side-by-side with their own amendment on the issue of drug reimportation and a side-by-side with Senator Crapo’s amendment on taxes. The majority objected, essentially, to the consent that they had previously offered a few days before.
I hope we can get back on track. The commitment was made by the majority at the beginning of this debate that we would have plenty of amendments. We had a process where we went from one side to the other, back and forth, smoothly. Either side was able to offer side-by-side amendments if they chose to. I think it is not fair to the American people–not fair to the American people to deny them the opportunity to have votes on what has been called the most important issue of our era, so important it has to be done before Christmas.
In the meantime, they are in some secret meeting, trying to come up with a bill that not only not all Senators have seen, not even Democratic Senators, but the American people have not seen it. We know what the core of the bill is. There are amendments the American people would like to see us debate and vote on and that is why I filed cloture on the Crapo amendment. Hopefully, we will not have to have that cloture vote, we can get back on track, as we were until things began to bog down midweek.
I yield the floor.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Illinois, the majority whip.
Mr. DURBIN. Mr. President, the majority side offered a unanimous consent, I believe on three successive days, to the Republican side, which they did not accept. Then yesterday the minority leader offered a variation on that, which is being considered at this moment by the majority leader. We are not prepared–I am not prepared to make a statement until the majority leader has made a final decision, having talked over the new offer with our members. The time may come. I cannot predict whether it will.
I do believe we have to work on it some more. In the meantime, I think the floor should be open for comments. I ask unanimous consent the Senate proceed to a period of morning business, with Senators permitted to speak for up to 10 minutes each.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there objection?
Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. President, I object.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Objection is heard.
Several Senators addressed the Chair.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Illinois.
Mr. DURBIN. I suggest the absence of a quorum.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will call the roll.
Mr. McCONNELL. I object.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will call the roll.
The legislative clerk proceeded to call the roll.
Mr. DURBIN. I ask unanimous consent that the order for the quorum call be rescinded.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Why the Republicans don’t demand that a quorum actually be present, I just don’t know.
Keep in mind that the GOP strategy means that the media focus has been on the moderate Democrats and Joe Lieberman rather than headlining stories about GOP obstruction. That in itself is a master stroke. What would be gained by a hyper-aggressive GOP in the Senate?
@John Cooper: I did read the “FIGHT” post at Redstate. It’s linked in the post above. While I personally favor hardball tactics, it’s not a smart way to fight this fight this time.
Again, I’m waiting for someone to show me what we gain by these tactics as compared to what we lose. If we followed the hardline suggestions the storyline in the press would be about the nasty GOP and not the concerns that moderate Democrats have which makes our entire position look so much more reasonable.
I think we would all like to see our GOP Senators get up there and smack the Democrats silly every which way they can. But it wouldn’t serve the greater goal which is to derail this monstrosity of a bill.
White House to Harry Reid: Cut deal with Joe Lieberman
The White House is encouraging Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) to cut a deal with Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), which would mean eliminating the proposed Medicare expansion in the health reform bill, according to an official close to the negotiations.
But Reid is described as so frustrated with Lieberman that he is not ready to sacrifice a key element of the health care bill, and first wants to see the Congressional Budget Office cost analysis of the Medicare buy-in. The analysis is expected early this week.
“There is a weariness and a lot of frustration that one person is holding up the will of 59 others,” the official said. “There is still too much anger and confusion at one particular senator’s reversal.”
…
If they still hope to pass a bill by Christmas – which is still a top consideration at the moment — Democrats have only limited options:
• Reach an agreement with Lieberman, which would mean stripping out the provisions that have kept progressives on board. This will likely cause problems on the left – maybe even defections – unless the White House steps in to persuade senators such as Russ Feingold of Wisconsin and Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
• Win over Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), but she has also voiced serious reservations about the Medicare expansion, and has resisted pressure from the White House and Senate Democrats to finish the bill by Christmas.
Reconciliation, a procedural maneuver to get around a filibuster, remains on the table, but it’s not a viable option at the moment, the official said. It would push the issue into next year with no guarantee of success.
Isn’t that a better headline than: WH Calls GOP Obstructionist?
givemeliberty
14 years ago
@Patvann: Agree with you, still to many dirtbags. I voted yes,but still a Libertarian, hope Mikes American can win me over.
On the subject of “dirtbags” we have a special problem here in SC: Lindsey Graham. Though I wouldn’t call him a “dirtbag” he’s not always a solid reliable conservative vote in the Senate. Most of the time YES, but the exceptions, like this idiocy on global warming, drive SC conservatives like myself to despair.
We thought we had a great candidate to run against him in 2008. Former State Treasurer Thomas Ravenel was an attractive, rich candidate who many thought would give Graham a run for his money until Ravenel got busted for buying cocaine. We got stuck with some nobody to run against Graham whose seat is now safe for the next four years.
It’s not an easy thing to get rid of these RINOS. And still, I’d rather have a RINO than a Democrat voting to support Harry Reid any day.
And if anyone wants to call me a RINO for saying that then I’ll just trot out my photos and credentials with Buckley, Goldwater, Ashbrook and Reagan again… So make my day!
Now I KNOW I posted a nice (long) thought-out answer to what I think needs to be done, but it’s not even in spam…. Crap!!!
[MIKE:I found it in my email Pat…. Here it is:]
Mike Could it be that those Indies of which you speak are “flocking” not because of some “moderate” rino’s, but because they see a that their loud, pissed-off neighbors are giving them the feeling that they are not alone, as the media has portrayed them as being all these years? “RINO-thought” gave us McCain, and conservatives stayed home. The ONLY reason Indies went for Obama was the fraud, and the promises and lies Obama told to get elected. What I think we need: FREAKING HONESTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -TRUE fiscal responsibility. NO pork, and a concerted effort to reduce debt. -Integrity. Personal, and professional. -Definitive plans to reduce the past 40 years of liberal influence on every department in the Fed. -An apology for straying off the ranch. -A definitive NO stance on illegal immigration, along with a plan to let in those who want to work. -Start REALLY fighting against Acorn and all the other crooked Demo-hatched schemes. This next part needs to stand alone, because it may raise some heckles, but first remember that a majority of this country sees themselves as Conservative. This even includes Dems. But to grab a majority of those Indies/Dems, a major step must be taken: De-couple the Party from the religious-right. *ducks tomato* It’s easy to do, if you take a hint from how Cheney dealt with the gay-issue vis a vi his own daughter. – Emphasize the states-rights angle regarding gay-marriage, and abortion. These are the ONLY two issues the Left has remaining, other than than the now-discredited AGW, which is why they are screaming so loud right now. We all know that in every poll taken, and every election done, that both abortion and Gay-marriage lose badly, so make them put-up or shut-up once and for all. Don’t take the bait of being seen as against those issues, say that it’s not the Feds place to take an issue at all. Emphasize the Constitutionality of the issues, and that they want to see the States take the lead. Emphasize that gays don’t like debt and/or high taxes either. Those Repubs that still think the planet is 5000yrs old need to shut up about it. If the largest Christian group on the planet, along with the world-Jewish leadership is OK with evolution, then maybe it’s time to review your stance. It’s should be easy enough to say the 14 billion years-ago the Big Bang was God’s “intelligent-design”, and acknowledge that it was a CHRISTIAN who coined the name. If one is unwilling to do that, one needs to keep it personal, and quit trying to call I.D “science”, and shoving it into schoolbooks. Shut-up and go to church already. (Jindal, Huck, Pawlenty… I’m looking at YOU.) There is enough junk-science going on, and it’s gotten us nowhere but stupider on both sides of the isle. If you’ve noticed, Palin has kept her faith close to her vest, and no matter how hard the Left tries to paint her with the “rabidly-righteous” label, there is nothing there that sticks. Why? Because she won’t take the bait, and her record proves it. Reagan too, if you recall. And for God’s sake, if you call yourself a Christian, keep your pecker where it belongs. (Same goes with ALL “wide-stance” Repubs.) But keep something in mind, Mike. The poll you posted reflects the emotional part of how we feel right now today more than what will happen when we are in a voting-booth next year, (as long as the Huckster and his ilk stay away). RINO and openly religious will lose everytime, because it turns off Conservatives, Indies and Dems alike.
John Cooper
14 years ago
Anyone want to make a guess as to why health care isn’t being debated on the floor today?
My theory is that at the last minute yesterday afternoon, McConnell said “no more Mr. Unanimous Consent” and dropped a motion for cloture on the Crapo Motion to Commit on the clerk’s desk. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think that one action gave Harry Reid the shivers.
The Crapo motion would commit the bill H.R. 3590 to the Committee on Finance with instructions to report the same back to the Senate with changes that provide that no provision of this Act shall result in an increase in Federal tax liability for individuals with adjusted gross income of less than $200,000 and married individuals with adjusted gross income of less than $250,000.
That’s my theory and I’m stickin’ to it .
Edit for Patvann: I posted a nice long post earlier and it just disappeared, too. Is there a word count limit?
John Cooper
14 years ago
Breaking:
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama will meet with Senate Democrats at the White House Tuesday to press for action at a make-or-break moment for his health care overhaul.
All 60 members of the Democratic caucus have been invited, according to three Democratic officials. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the announcement was not yet public.
I looked in the spam-file and nothing of yours is in it. I know for SURE mine got posted, because I saw it…(Curt?)
There is no word-count limit, but sometimes ya might forget to hit the send-button, and if ya leave the page without doing that, it’s lost forever. For comments/posts you really want, write/save it in Word, then post it.
I found Pat’s post (formatting lost in the translation, but maybe Pat can tweak it] but nothing else from John Cooper…
Sorry John… It wasn’t done on purpose.
As for your theory that the current stalemate is a result of McConnell’s newfound tactics: I’d say it’s one third that and 2/3rd’s Liberman and the other Senate Dems.
WASHINGTON – The end game in sight, Senate Democrats coped with stubborn internal differences as well as implacable Republican opposition on Monday in a struggle to pass health care legislation by Christmas.
A liberal-backed call to expand Medicare as part of the legislation drew strong opposition from Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn. and quieter concerns from a dozen Democrats, raising significant doubts about its ability to survive.
Congressional officials said the administration was recommending the provision be jettisoned to clear the way for the most sweeping health care legislation in a half-century. In response, a top presidential aide, Dan Pfeiffer, said, “The White House is not pushing (Senate Majority Leader Harry) Reid in any direction, we are working hand in hand with the Senate leadership to work through the various issues and pass health reform as soon as possible.”
Disputes over abortion and the importation of prescription drugs from Canada and other countries also flared.
Democrats are “looking for 60 votes,” said Dick Durbin of Illinois, the party’s second-ranking Senate leader — a statement that has characterized their effort to overcome Republican opposition for months.
President Barack Obama, the fate of his top domestic priority in doubt, invited all Senate Democrats to a meeting at the White House complex on Tuesday — possibly the final day for an agreement if the legislation is to clear the Senate before Christmas.
Again, aren’t these the kind of headlines we should prefer rather than: GOP BLOCKS HEALTHCARE FOR AMERICANS?
I agree Mike. I like those headlines. I also remember too many Repubs voting for Porculus.
I think that when and if this Bill ever DOES die (It’s like it’s Eddy freakin Kruger), more people will begin to trust them again, including me. I am behind them on this, but my faith was badly shaken back with the Prescription-drug Bill… penned by Kennedy, supported by Repubs, signed by Bush, paid for by my kids, and over-budget already.
(PS Thanks for finding the lost comment.)
John Cooper
14 years ago
Patvann and Mike:
It was a long post with the transcript of McConnell’s objection in the Senate yesterday. I’m 100% positive that I hit the Send button, because the page reloaded like it usually does. My post just wasn’t there when it refreshed.
I’d repost it but it’s probably not worth it. If anyone wants to read it for hisorherself, here’s the link to the Pg. S13131 of the Congressional Record. McConnell starts on the lower right of the page, and continues on Pg. S13132.
The way I interpret this is that McConnell threw down the gauntlet and told the dems that he was going to FORCE an up or down vote on whether the dems are going to “raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000”.
I will be very pleased if it turns out that turning dems on dems was the Republican strategy all along rather than just pure luck.
Donald Bly
14 years ago
Expect executive branch bribes in an Obama attempt to buy Senate votes for health care. The question is, how much, to whom and from which Obama slush fund will the taxpayer’s money be misused.
I’m not sure who Eddie Kruger is but, yeah, this health care takeover debacle keeps rearing its’ socialist head.
This whole process has been like Whack-a-Mole on Sammy Sosa strength steroids.
Donald Bly
14 years ago
I believe that was meant to be “Freddy Kruger” of the Nightmare on Elm Street series. A character than seems to be unstoppable, wreaking havoc at every turn of the script.
But what the hell… eddie, freddie… tomahto, tomato
@Old Ez: I’ve always advocated a conservative governing majority. It’s something we have never had.
But to get there, you first have to have a majority. And I’ll accept a few RINOS in the process.
Old Ez
14 years ago
Yeah, but Mike, I’m saying that if we have to join them to beat them, there is no difference anymore. We have become them and after that, even if they lose, they win. After that, even if we win, we have lost. It’s not about the winning or the losing in the long run. It’s about doing the right thing, fighting for actual values, for freedom for our heirs, not just winning for the sake of winning. The RePub’s have been fighting the ‘join-them’ way since the media fallout after Regan. (progressively more so each year) Where has it gotten them? Think back to 1986. Can you see any significant difference between the RePubs as a group now and the Dems as a group then? I can’t. RePubs have already become the Dems of 20 years ago. Now they’re about to become the Socialist Republicans. It’s a step too far.
Its time to take a Winston stand. Tell it like it is. If the majority won’t see the light now, at least they’ll realize that they have somewhere to turn to after it all goes to crap. That’s right; I think that if the country won’t listen to reason and fight this tooth and nail, they need to see just what we’ve been warning them about. They’ll discover that utopian socialist cake tastes like crap crackers and spit that schist out of their mouth when they get a bite or two. They’ll turn on the people who fed them that foul stench. If they think the RePubs helped that along, do you think they’ll happily turn to them? Now is not the time to be conveying “Ah, just a little bite, not a big bite like the Dems want you to take.” Now is the time to be saying, “Don’t put that crap in your mouth! You won’t like it and it’s almost impossible to get rid of the taste!”
We can’t beat them by joining them. I’d rather live as a mistreated slave who fought for his freedom than a well treated slave who gave his away.
Its time to take a stand. If we lose, let us lose with our dignity and self-respect intact. If we truly believe we are right about the values we are fighting for, we won’t give them up for a pyrrhic victory that costs us the very things we are fighting to preserve.
BTW, I’m not against having a party that takes into account differences in different regions of the country. NC was probably the only place Jesse Helms could have been elected for good reasons. But with only a few changes in his voting pattern, Joe Lieberman might fit as a RePub. I’m just saying that, like a country must have borders, RePubs must have some kind of reasonable limits. If you keep letting anyone run for you who is willing put an R behind their name just to receive millions in campaign money, you are selling the soul of the RePub party and of the country as a whole. My soul ain’t for sale.
One last BTW, Mike, I’m not saying that you want to be a slave or your soul is for sale or intending to insult you in any way. You’ve done a lot of excellent, important work in the past and are still doing that here and now. I respect and thank you for that. It’s simply that we disagree on this. This is the way that I look at it from where I’m at, for me personally.
If it’s any consolation, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. I hope the RePubs are honestly fighting this and can beat it. However, judging from their past actions, I believe that this is a sham fight. Just enough fight to win re-election next time. I truly hope you’re right about this one. If I’m wrong, I’ll give the RePubs the benefit of the doubt for a long time to come. If I’m right, this finishes me forever with them. There is ALOT more people feeling that way than you’all think. Sorry about the long post.
Merry Christmas…I find myself agreeing with you. JFK would be seen as a rabid right-wing extremist in light of what’s going on now. But I think I also see what Mike is getting at.
That is: A few RINOs are harmless, when enough true Conservatives are in power. To get that “power” we might need them, so let’s not dismiss them out of hand. In other words, let’s use them if and when we can, because we will never be truely rid of them.
If there is enough men and women elected, who do exactly what you see needs doing, those few remaining RINOs will be pressed into doing your bidding. If we have enough of a majority, they will be one of 2 things to us: Useful, or harmless. Both of which are better than harmful… which is where we are now.
@Old Ez: I like to follow Ronald Reagan’s example. He’s a great leader to whom I have a small personal attachment. His philosophy was to proudly espouse strong conservative principles and invite conservative Democrats and moderates to join us. And it worked.
Reagan didn’t believe in any “purge” of RINOS and certainly NEVER backed any third party movement, but he let it be known that all were welcome to join the party if they shared our views.
If RINOS accept the conservative majority philosophy and are willing to vote to elect conservative speakers and senate leaders then why not?
Here’s an article by Jeff Lord, who also served in the Reagan White House on this subject:
(1) We support smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama’s “stimulus” bill
(2) We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run health care
(3) We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation
(4) We support workers’ right to secret ballot by opposing card check
(5) We support legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants
(6) We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges
(7) We support containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat
(8) We support retention of the Defense of Marriage Act
(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing and denial of health care and government funding of abortion
(10) We support the right to keep and bear arms by opposing government restrictions on gun ownership
The bottom line is that to get our conservative majority we are going to have to win elections. And I don’t believe we have to sell out our principles to succeed. But if we expect that all candidates in every state or district are going to behave to some arbitrary standard then we will lose.
Other than the last one, do you see anything about adherence to the principals of the Constitution in that list?
Will this list be valid in 2016? No.
These are populist in-nature. While I hope and pray for all Repubs to adhere to that list, what we need is a return to the principals. If we do that, the list comes naturally, without specification.
IMO, using Reagan’s name in place of what Reagan stood for seems desperate to me. I’ve been to a bunch of Tea-party, and “partyish” meetings now, and I can assure you, the time for that sort of list, and name-dropping has long past. These people want a return to what defined our country, not a return to any particular president, no matter how beloved. The cynicism is too high out here…
But it is a start. It just better not be the finish, because the Constitution will always be valid, no matter what or who or when the situation calls on it. Reagan knew that, and THAT’S what gave Reagan his appeal, not any list of specific grievances against the incumbent party.
Hell if the Dems believed in the principals of the Constitution…Oh wait. Then they wouldn’t be Dems. To them it’s “inherently flawed”…nevermind. 🙂
@Patvann: Does this mean you reject the use of the declaration if it doesn’t include a specific about the Constitution? See, this is the problem I have been trying to get at. Folks will dump on whatever good moves the party makes because they left out X,Y or Z.
Yeah, it would be great if we had a list of 20 or 30 points but that might get ridiculous. And we’d still have some guy out there saying he won’t support the party because they didn’t mention the plight of Ukrainian coal miners.
Speaking of the Constitution, Glenn Beck has a segment on that today too:
Hard Right
14 years ago
Hungry, cold, and covered in coal dust. Ukranian coal miners wonder whether they will see tomorrow. Even if they do, there’s no gurantee they will have the sustenance needed to carry out their brutal 36 hour shift. For just $1 a day you too can feed a Ukranian coal miner…
Does this mean you reject the use of the declaration if it doesn’t include a specific about the Constitution? See, this is the problem I have been trying to get at. Folks will dump on whatever good moves the party makes because they left out X,Y or Z.
Absolutely not. That’s why I said that this is a good start, and that I hope and pray that they adhere to it.
I think very strongly that if they adhere to it, they will get many people to vote for them. I will be one of those people.
My point is at a higher level, and what to aim for to STAY on top, and stay doing what’s good for the country in future election. To stay a party folks can always count on. It’s all about the framing of the issue at hand.
In that light, lets take one of the items on that list, but re-state it within the framework of the Constitution: (number 4)
“In the same way article 1, section 6 of the Constitution forbids the questioning of a voter, we the Republican party will ALWAYS fight against any attempt to force workers to disclose the intent of their vote, be it to government or to a Union.”
It need not be that obvious, nor blatant, and there might even be some pertinent items that don’t have a clean match-up. It there is ZERO match-up, then the Party might want to re-consider their own position. Like the overt support of the defense of marriage act. In these cases, don’t put it on any list or platform at all, simply push it back to the states.
(number 8 ) It is the position of the Republican party, that as the representatives of the republican-system of this great country, the Rights of the States supersedes the powers of the federal government if not specifically enumerated. Because marriage-licensing is not under the perview of the federal government, we hold that this decision should be reserved for the states. If the Republican members within those states choose gay marriage for themselves, we will support it. Likewise should they reject it, we will defend that rejection with the same vigor.
You and I both know that gay marriage is ALWAYS rejected when put to a popular vote, so we have nothing to lose, and everything to gain by taking this stance. 2% of the population will never run over the other 98%, even if a lot of those 98% support the 2%.
But in the meantime, before my little version of nirvanna is realised, I will support the list as published, hoping that future steps are taken to re-focus our government (and my Party) back to what our government (and Party) is supposed to be…although the Reagan bit is still kinda weak.
Yesterday, I wrote that every political movement must hold core principles that all of its members accept, and that the movement can only be championed by those who adhere to those principles. The Republican Party is defined by certain ideas about liberty, justice, and constitutional government, and to be indifferent to those principles is to betray that conception of justice. The greatest statesmen of the Republican Party, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan, grasped these truths and acted accordingly.
These assertions, however, suggest a problem of their own. A party or movement must be able to win in order to act upon its principles. A principled movement will naturally tend to repel a portion of the population; all those who disagree will “go their own way.” The problem resolves itself into this: how to secure enough support to win and govern, when large portions of the population are either indifferent or hostile to those principles.
The problem resolves itself into this: how to secure enough support to win and govern, when large portions of the population are either indifferent or hostile to those principles.
The secondary questions are:
1. How did that portion of the population become indifferent?
2. How does one turn that paradigm around?
The answer to both of these questions is one word:
Education.
The left took over the school system, by first taking over the colleges and universities in the 70’s. They then created the “new and improved” teachers.
Those teachers then took over the primary and secondary schools, and proceeded to impart the anti-American/West/Judeo-Christian, and the pro-communist/gay/green/moral-equivalence precepts.
Thus, we now have drones with brains of mush. 30 years worth in fact, and they grow more in number with each graduating class.
Make some time to review EXACTLY what the National Education Association views as “essential” to our children’s “education”. I warn you…You will be sick to your stomach, and you will find NOTHING having to do with the “3 R’s+science”.
@Patvann: Unfortunately, when you are trying to present a document to the public which you expect them to read, brevity is the only way to go about it. Your additions would make the thing too long.
@John Cooper: Thanks for that addition to the reading list. Lots of good stuff coming up in this discussion.
It’s that balancing act which is so very difficult. As we’ve seen in the discussion here there are some on our side who say “damn you all to hell” if we don’t go their way 100%. And yet, if we water down our principles too much, what’s the point?
The biggest problem from my point of view is one which our country has faced since before the Revolutionary war. Then, one third wanted to break from England. One third did not and one third didn’t really care. It’s the same today. A little more than one third of us are conservatives (but may not all agree on what that means) one third are moderates or Independents who don’t really pay much attention to political issues and one third are libs and Dems who will oppose us on everything.
Meanwhile, I’m gratified by the response in the poll on this post. That 3 to 1 margin expressing satisfaction with the job the GOP senate is doing is holding.
Unfortunately, you are correct. Which is why our Founders warned us over and over again about having (and keeping) an educated and involved population, and why the Left fights so hard to do the opposite.
(This thread more than makes up for the “Ian/sock-puppet” fiasco. :-))
John Cooper
14 years ago
Mike–
Thank YOU for the great discussion. We’ll have to wait and see how gratified you are with the poll results when this bill passes as it seems on the verge of doing as we speak. You’ve probably heard that Lieberman has caved and Nelson of NE had been threatened with the loss of all military bases in his State. From RedState:
The White House and Democratic Leadership in the Senate has told Senator Nelson they will close every military base in Nebraska — a threat that is not credible, really — but they have also offered Senator Nelson between $300 million to $500 million in earmarks, according to key hill health care operatives. These hundreds of millions will be available for whatever he wants to spend them on in Nebraska.
Given Senator Nelson’s hard core earmarking history as an appropriator, the word on the street is that this is the real carrot that could get Nelson to agree to some cover amendment that would allege to protect the innocent unborn from government funding of abortion, but, in fact, would not.
See, the Republicans have been played like a cheap fiddle this entire time. The Democrat leadership cynically introduces some amendment which supposedly “divides” them, never intending to actually pass it. Then they make a big deal of “compromising” by pulling the amendment to bring the “renegades” back into the fold. Meanwhile, the heart of the bill – socialized medicine – is still there and moving forward.
I’m afraid that the Republicans just have no clue regarding how badly they are being fooled. They are making some pretty good speeches, though.
Edit: Say, has anyone noticed who was standing next to Joe Lieberman during his press conference this afternoon? That’s right, Susan Collins. There’s no doubt in my mind that both she and Sen. Olympia Snowe will be stabbing the Republicans in the back on this bill. (As always, I hope I’m wrong.)
@John Cooper: I’ve said repeatedly that I thought Dems would pull the public option at the last minute and declare victory as they roll on to take over our health care.
This bill sucks without a public option or medicare expansion as much as it sucks with one.
But I disagree that our GOP friends are being fooled. They know this sucks too (well maybe not Susan Collins).
The question is: what could they do to stop it that they haven’t already done THAT WOULD WORK?
I’ve asked this about a dozen times on various discussions on this matter and I’ve yet to get an answer.
Every one of the tactics in Redstate’s “Fight” post are delaying tactics at best. The GOP can’t stop anything.
There are still a few cards to play here and it will be interesting to see what happens.
Now, the big question I have is whether that 25% who express dissatisfaction with the Senate GOP effort are going to once again sit on the sidelines as some did in 2006 and 2008 and make it possible for the Dems to fend off the GOP challenge in 2010?
[I do realize that a portion of that 25% are actually Obamatons who just hate the GOP, so the real % of conservatives in that sample is actually much lower]
Is the poll reflecting only viewer to this site? if so, the portion of Obamatons is going to be VERY low..No matter there….
You should also remember the emotional-level vote-ratio, because this poll matters nothing in the real world, and it’s also asking a very different question than; “Will you vote next Nov?”
To answer the “big” question, it was estimated that fully 30% of Repubs stayed home in 06 and close to 40 in 08. So guaging the level of outrage at the Dems now, the turnout for Repubs will be huge….even guys like Mr. Cooper are going to go vote, because the rest of the ballot has taken a new importance as well. Even if he doesn’t there will be more than enough to make up for him. The polls now show we get back the House by one member, and those are bound to get even better in 9 months.
So back to the even bigger question…Is there anything at all the repubs can do?
@Patvann: You have a link for those stay at home numbers?
The poll is also posted at Mike’s America which is a much less loony lib friendly site than Flopping Aces. I keep one or two moonbats in a cage and only let them out on weekends. You’d be surprised how many libs there are visiting F.A.
P.S. You’re using that “repubs” lingo…. hmmmm….
Brian H
14 years ago
patvann;
good posts, but for future reference, if you’re going to focus on a word, and italicize it, make sure you’ve got the right one!
principals = people, e.g. the Founders.
principles = ideas, e.g. the content of the Constitution.
I voted yes, but I could list at least a dozen more things that I think they could and SHOULD be doing.
I also don’t trust them yet. Too many dirtbags are still around from the 2000-2006 period.
The bottom line for me is that considering what they’re up against, they are holding the line, but they have a long way to go until I can register as a republican.
Voted “Yes”!
Yes. Is it easier for the Senate GOP to find their moral compass now that the rudderless ship Obama seems destined to crash on the rocks? It has not been one year since the Fraud entered the White House and began his gradual descent into ignominy, it doesn’t seem possible that this manufactured persona could regain popular support with his rogues’ gallery of incompetence he has surrounded himself with; but what if he does regain momentum at some point in the next three years, will our GOP maintain their stance against this Progressive Marxism?
Remember, the Liberal base and our younger generations have been subjected to Marxist indoctrination by the public education system and the university system for decades, it is amazing that they are capable of discerning the cancerous core of our Socialist movement and the Global Warming Hoax. After years of subtle brainwashing by the majority of our educators, a process that is still in process, our younger generations may be ill-equipped to resist the siren’s call to Marxism.
Consequently, we who stand guard on the ramparts of Liberty must maintain our vigilance and not become complacent in favorable poll numbers, for it is us and talk radio who have led this fight against tyranny. Take pride in our victories, but remember there is a long way to go before the Marxist in the White House retires in disgrace and this malignancy of international Marxism is exposed and destroyed.
Gonna have to throw an H and an e and a great big old double L NO on that. They can say they’re trying to stop that train, but I ain’t believing ’em’ till they quit shoveling coal in the hotbox. Just because they don’t intend on sticking it to us as far, fast, or deep as the other guys, don’t mean we ain’t still getting a scrogging.
When I voted, 75 percent of you’all voted ‘agin’ me, and all the comments went the other way. We just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause personally, I’m sore. I’ve been scrogged all I’m gonna be scrogged without at least hollering NO MORE, PERIOD!
If the Pub’s continue doing like they’re doing, THIS BILL WILL PASS! They ain’t doing one blessed thang but winking at the Dem’s with a “Let us slow ‘er’ down a mite so we can git re-elected and we promise we’ll let you have whatever you’all want in the long run and that-a-way you’all won’t have-ta worry bout fresh meat in here in 2010 trying to really stopper-up the works!”
Mark my words, if a HUGE public outcry doesn’t happen, this bill will pass and almost every one of the black stalk mf’ers will be re-elected from both parties.
Gotta’ vote no on this. Here’s a letter-to-editor I sent yesterday in which I heavily borrowed from Erick at RedState:
The paper to which I submitted this letter has a 200 word limit, so I had to cut out some of my best lines, like for example: ” Meanwhile, those “good friends” continue to slur them openly on the Senate floor and no-doubt laugh at their naivete in the cloakrooms. ”
I freely admit that if McConnell has a plan, it is too nuanced for me to understand.
On CSPAN I saw a glimmer of hope yesterday afternoon, though. Sen. McConnell actually uttered the forbidden words, “I object!”, as he handed a motion for cloture on the Crapo Amendment to the clerk. Maybe, just maybe, McConnell has located his long-lost cojones.
Voted NO! I won’t be satisfied until this thing is so dead they are all scared to bring it up again.
I’l begin to have some faith in senate republicans when Snowe, Voinovich, McCain, Grahmnesty, Collins, HATCH and several others are in their home states on a permanent basis. Replace these treasonous, perpetual RINOs with Demint-type voices and republicans will control both houses for decades to come.
Trust but verify … I think they could go off the rails any second …
Interesting that we have so many strong voices arguing against the job our Senate GOP team is doing. Again, considering how weak their numerical position in the senate is and yet how united and they have become and relatively successful in slowing down this train wreck, I’d have to ask what steps the naysayers suggest we take that would be EFFECTIVE without alienating the Indepdents who are flocking to our side????
It doesn’t do much good to bitch if you don’t have a BETTER idea!
Still, I note that the satisfieds outnumber the unsatisfieds by 3 to 1.
P.S. @OLDPUPPYMAX: I hope you are donating money to fund possible replacements in those races. Even still, you’re probabaly going to be disappointed for a long, long time and that only plays into the hands of Obama.
Yes and Senator Barroso is doing a great job! I have to say that Pat Robertson from Kansas was the best with his cactus allegory. Who knew that the “government channel” will be the one to keep us all informed!
I support our GOP and there is no need for a Third Party. That will only ensured that Zero and his croonies will be in power for a long time.
Keep an eye on Lt. Col. Allen West in Florida. He is running for Congress. Great story!
Mike’s America–
I think the “better idea” is to use parliamentary procedures to shut down the Senate with objection after objection until this bill dies a natural death. (See: Fight. over at RedState) Week by week more Americans turn against this abomination of a bill, and the longer it can be delayed, the better chance there is that it will die.
I do see some signs that McConnell is finally growing a set of cohones, though. If you watched CSPAN yesterday, he actually used the words “I object!” twice. I think this little exchange at the end of the day is the reason that the Senate is not talking health care today:
Why the Republicans don’t demand that a quorum actually be present, I just don’t know.
I added this paragraph to the post:
@John Cooper: I did read the “FIGHT” post at Redstate. It’s linked in the post above. While I personally favor hardball tactics, it’s not a smart way to fight this fight this time.
Again, I’m waiting for someone to show me what we gain by these tactics as compared to what we lose. If we followed the hardline suggestions the storyline in the press would be about the nasty GOP and not the concerns that moderate Democrats have which makes our entire position look so much more reasonable.
I think we would all like to see our GOP Senators get up there and smack the Democrats silly every which way they can. But it wouldn’t serve the greater goal which is to derail this monstrosity of a bill.
P.S. Patvann: Where’d your latest comment go?
The Politico has this update:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30572.html
Isn’t that a better headline than: WH Calls GOP Obstructionist?
@Patvann: Agree with you, still to many dirtbags. I voted yes,but still a Libertarian, hope Mikes American can win me over.
@givemeliberty: I’ll keep trying.
On the subject of “dirtbags” we have a special problem here in SC: Lindsey Graham. Though I wouldn’t call him a “dirtbag” he’s not always a solid reliable conservative vote in the Senate. Most of the time YES, but the exceptions, like this idiocy on global warming, drive SC conservatives like myself to despair.
We thought we had a great candidate to run against him in 2008. Former State Treasurer Thomas Ravenel was an attractive, rich candidate who many thought would give Graham a run for his money until Ravenel got busted for buying cocaine. We got stuck with some nobody to run against Graham whose seat is now safe for the next four years.
It’s not an easy thing to get rid of these RINOS. And still, I’d rather have a RINO than a Democrat voting to support Harry Reid any day.
And if anyone wants to call me a RINO for saying that then I’ll just trot out my photos and credentials with Buckley, Goldwater, Ashbrook and Reagan again… So make my day!
@Mike
Now I KNOW I posted a nice (long) thought-out answer to what I think needs to be done, but it’s not even in spam…. Crap!!!
[MIKE:I found it in my email Pat…. Here it is:]
Anyone want to make a guess as to why health care isn’t being debated on the floor today?
My theory is that at the last minute yesterday afternoon, McConnell said “no more Mr. Unanimous Consent” and dropped a motion for cloture on the Crapo Motion to Commit on the clerk’s desk. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think that one action gave Harry Reid the shivers.
The Crapo motion would commit the bill H.R. 3590 to the Committee on Finance with instructions to report the same back to the Senate with changes that provide that no provision of this Act shall result in an increase in Federal tax liability for individuals with adjusted gross income of less than $200,000 and married individuals with adjusted gross income of less than $250,000.
That’s my theory and I’m stickin’ to it .
Edit for Patvann: I posted a nice long post earlier and it just disappeared, too. Is there a word count limit?
Breaking:
What? No Republicans invited (again)?
@John Cooper.
I looked in the spam-file and nothing of yours is in it. I know for SURE mine got posted, because I saw it…(Curt?)
There is no word-count limit, but sometimes ya might forget to hit the send-button, and if ya leave the page without doing that, it’s lost forever. For comments/posts you really want, write/save it in Word, then post it.
The server seems like it’s on Quaaludes today.
Pat,
I saw your post…briefly.
Then, when I hit the refresh button, it disappeared into the ether.
I found Pat’s post (formatting lost in the translation, but maybe Pat can tweak it] but nothing else from John Cooper…
Sorry John… It wasn’t done on purpose.
As for your theory that the current stalemate is a result of McConnell’s newfound tactics: I’d say it’s one third that and 2/3rd’s Liberman and the other Senate Dems.
Here’s a link to a source for your comment above:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091214/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_white_house
The next 72 hours will be very interesting….
Again, aren’t these the kind of headlines we should prefer rather than: GOP BLOCKS HEALTHCARE FOR AMERICANS?
@Mike
I agree Mike. I like those headlines. I also remember too many Repubs voting for Porculus.
I think that when and if this Bill ever DOES die (It’s like it’s Eddy freakin Kruger), more people will begin to trust them again, including me. I am behind them on this, but my faith was badly shaken back with the Prescription-drug Bill… penned by Kennedy, supported by Repubs, signed by Bush, paid for by my kids, and over-budget already.
(PS Thanks for finding the lost comment.)
Patvann and Mike:
It was a long post with the transcript of McConnell’s objection in the Senate yesterday. I’m 100% positive that I hit the Send button, because the page reloaded like it usually does. My post just wasn’t there when it refreshed.
I’d repost it but it’s probably not worth it. If anyone wants to read it for hisorherself, here’s the link to the Pg. S13131 of the Congressional Record. McConnell starts on the lower right of the page, and continues on Pg. S13132.
The way I interpret this is that McConnell threw down the gauntlet and told the dems that he was going to FORCE an up or down vote on whether the dems are going to “raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000”.
I will be very pleased if it turns out that turning dems on dems was the Republican strategy all along rather than just pure luck.
Expect executive branch bribes in an Obama attempt to buy Senate votes for health care. The question is, how much, to whom and from which Obama slush fund will the taxpayer’s money be misused.
@Patvann:
I’m not sure who Eddie Kruger is but, yeah, this health care takeover debacle keeps rearing its’ socialist head.
This whole process has been like Whack-a-Mole on Sammy Sosa strength steroids.
I believe that was meant to be “Freddy Kruger” of the Nightmare on Elm Street series. A character than seems to be unstoppable, wreaking havoc at every turn of the script.
But what the hell… eddie, freddie… tomahto, tomato
I notice the reader poll is staying about 75% approve…
@John Cooper: Is this the comment?
@Don/Aye
LOL! 🙂
Yeah! THAT guy!
I got most of the letters in his name!
(Only ever saw the first movie, but I heard of his reputation ;-))
Mike–
That’s it. I’m now suffering from cognitive dissonance…
Looks like Harkin just announced that the Medicare thing is out. Lieberman got his way.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/harkin-theres-enough-good-in-this-bill-without-medicare-buy-in-trigger.php
The comments are deserving of a large bowel of popcorn, and some time. 😉
So now what?
Just a reminder Mike, majority doesn’t mean right in the long run. Remember Churchill pre and post WW II. Just saying… .., we’ll see.
@Old Ez: I’ve always advocated a conservative governing majority. It’s something we have never had.
But to get there, you first have to have a majority. And I’ll accept a few RINOS in the process.
Yeah, but Mike, I’m saying that if we have to join them to beat them, there is no difference anymore. We have become them and after that, even if they lose, they win. After that, even if we win, we have lost. It’s not about the winning or the losing in the long run. It’s about doing the right thing, fighting for actual values, for freedom for our heirs, not just winning for the sake of winning. The RePub’s have been fighting the ‘join-them’ way since the media fallout after Regan. (progressively more so each year) Where has it gotten them? Think back to 1986. Can you see any significant difference between the RePubs as a group now and the Dems as a group then? I can’t. RePubs have already become the Dems of 20 years ago. Now they’re about to become the Socialist Republicans. It’s a step too far.
Its time to take a Winston stand. Tell it like it is. If the majority won’t see the light now, at least they’ll realize that they have somewhere to turn to after it all goes to crap. That’s right; I think that if the country won’t listen to reason and fight this tooth and nail, they need to see just what we’ve been warning them about. They’ll discover that utopian socialist cake tastes like crap crackers and spit that schist out of their mouth when they get a bite or two. They’ll turn on the people who fed them that foul stench. If they think the RePubs helped that along, do you think they’ll happily turn to them? Now is not the time to be conveying “Ah, just a little bite, not a big bite like the Dems want you to take.” Now is the time to be saying, “Don’t put that crap in your mouth! You won’t like it and it’s almost impossible to get rid of the taste!”
We can’t beat them by joining them. I’d rather live as a mistreated slave who fought for his freedom than a well treated slave who gave his away.
Its time to take a stand. If we lose, let us lose with our dignity and self-respect intact. If we truly believe we are right about the values we are fighting for, we won’t give them up for a pyrrhic victory that costs us the very things we are fighting to preserve.
BTW, I’m not against having a party that takes into account differences in different regions of the country. NC was probably the only place Jesse Helms could have been elected for good reasons. But with only a few changes in his voting pattern, Joe Lieberman might fit as a RePub. I’m just saying that, like a country must have borders, RePubs must have some kind of reasonable limits. If you keep letting anyone run for you who is willing put an R behind their name just to receive millions in campaign money, you are selling the soul of the RePub party and of the country as a whole. My soul ain’t for sale.
One last BTW, Mike, I’m not saying that you want to be a slave or your soul is for sale or intending to insult you in any way. You’ve done a lot of excellent, important work in the past and are still doing that here and now. I respect and thank you for that. It’s simply that we disagree on this. This is the way that I look at it from where I’m at, for me personally.
If it’s any consolation, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. I hope the RePubs are honestly fighting this and can beat it. However, judging from their past actions, I believe that this is a sham fight. Just enough fight to win re-election next time. I truly hope you’re right about this one. If I’m wrong, I’ll give the RePubs the benefit of the doubt for a long time to come. If I’m right, this finishes me forever with them. There is ALOT more people feeling that way than you’all think. Sorry about the long post.
To anyone who made it this far, Merry Christmas!
@Old EZ
Merry Christmas…I find myself agreeing with you. JFK would be seen as a rabid right-wing extremist in light of what’s going on now. But I think I also see what Mike is getting at.
That is: A few RINOs are harmless, when enough true Conservatives are in power. To get that “power” we might need them, so let’s not dismiss them out of hand. In other words, let’s use them if and when we can, because we will never be truely rid of them.
If there is enough men and women elected, who do exactly what you see needs doing, those few remaining RINOs will be pressed into doing your bidding. If we have enough of a majority, they will be one of 2 things to us: Useful, or harmless. Both of which are better than harmful… which is where we are now.
@Old Ez: I like to follow Ronald Reagan’s example. He’s a great leader to whom I have a small personal attachment. His philosophy was to proudly espouse strong conservative principles and invite conservative Democrats and moderates to join us. And it worked.
Reagan didn’t believe in any “purge” of RINOS and certainly NEVER backed any third party movement, but he let it be known that all were welcome to join the party if they shared our views.
If RINOS accept the conservative majority philosophy and are willing to vote to elect conservative speakers and senate leaders then why not?
Here’s an article by Jeff Lord, who also served in the Reagan White House on this subject:
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/12/08/reagans-december-declaration-g/print
My goal is to make it easier, not harder, for everyone to join a conservative governing majority even if they are not 100% on board with every plank.
There’s always been a problem with any kind of “purity” test. Who is to decide what pure or impure is? Do you get to define the set of issues or do I?
I do however support those in the RNC who are currently asking for a declaration called:
The bottom line is that to get our conservative majority we are going to have to win elections. And I don’t believe we have to sell out our principles to succeed. But if we expect that all candidates in every state or district are going to behave to some arbitrary standard then we will lose.
@Mike
Other than the last one, do you see anything about adherence to the principals of the Constitution in that list?
Will this list be valid in 2016? No.
These are populist in-nature. While I hope and pray for all Repubs to adhere to that list, what we need is a return to the principals. If we do that, the list comes naturally, without specification.
IMO, using Reagan’s name in place of what Reagan stood for seems desperate to me. I’ve been to a bunch of Tea-party, and “partyish” meetings now, and I can assure you, the time for that sort of list, and name-dropping has long past. These people want a return to what defined our country, not a return to any particular president, no matter how beloved. The cynicism is too high out here…
But it is a start. It just better not be the finish, because the Constitution will always be valid, no matter what or who or when the situation calls on it. Reagan knew that, and THAT’S what gave Reagan his appeal, not any list of specific grievances against the incumbent party.
Hell if the Dems believed in the principals of the Constitution…Oh wait. Then they wouldn’t be Dems. To them it’s “inherently flawed”…nevermind. 🙂
(ps pls clear spam)
@Patvann: Does this mean you reject the use of the declaration if it doesn’t include a specific about the Constitution? See, this is the problem I have been trying to get at. Folks will dump on whatever good moves the party makes because they left out X,Y or Z.
Yeah, it would be great if we had a list of 20 or 30 points but that might get ridiculous. And we’d still have some guy out there saying he won’t support the party because they didn’t mention the plight of Ukrainian coal miners.
Speaking of the Constitution, Glenn Beck has a segment on that today too:
Hungry, cold, and covered in coal dust. Ukranian coal miners wonder whether they will see tomorrow. Even if they do, there’s no gurantee they will have the sustenance needed to carry out their brutal 36 hour shift. For just $1 a day you too can feed a Ukranian coal miner…
@Mike
Absolutely not. That’s why I said that this is a good start, and that I hope and pray that they adhere to it.
I think very strongly that if they adhere to it, they will get many people to vote for them. I will be one of those people.
My point is at a higher level, and what to aim for to STAY on top, and stay doing what’s good for the country in future election. To stay a party folks can always count on. It’s all about the framing of the issue at hand.
In that light, lets take one of the items on that list, but re-state it within the framework of the Constitution: (number 4)
“In the same way article 1, section 6 of the Constitution forbids the questioning of a voter, we the Republican party will ALWAYS fight against any attempt to force workers to disclose the intent of their vote, be it to government or to a Union.”
It need not be that obvious, nor blatant, and there might even be some pertinent items that don’t have a clean match-up. It there is ZERO match-up, then the Party might want to re-consider their own position. Like the overt support of the defense of marriage act. In these cases, don’t put it on any list or platform at all, simply push it back to the states.
(number 8 )
It is the position of the Republican party, that as the representatives of the republican-system of this great country, the Rights of the States supersedes the powers of the federal government if not specifically enumerated. Because marriage-licensing is not under the perview of the federal government, we hold that this decision should be reserved for the states. If the Republican members within those states choose gay marriage for themselves, we will support it. Likewise should they reject it, we will defend that rejection with the same vigor.
You and I both know that gay marriage is ALWAYS rejected when put to a popular vote, so we have nothing to lose, and everything to gain by taking this stance. 2% of the population will never run over the other 98%, even if a lot of those 98% support the 2%.
But in the meantime, before my little version of nirvanna is realised, I will support the list as published, hoping that future steps are taken to re-focus our government (and my Party) back to what our government (and Party) is supposed to be…although the Reagan bit is still kinda weak.
The Soul of the Republican Party, Part II by Kevin Portteus in Human Events:
@John Cooper
The secondary questions are:
1. How did that portion of the population become indifferent?
2. How does one turn that paradigm around?
The answer to both of these questions is one word:
Education.
The left took over the school system, by first taking over the colleges and universities in the 70’s. They then created the “new and improved” teachers.
Those teachers then took over the primary and secondary schools, and proceeded to impart the anti-American/West/Judeo-Christian, and the pro-communist/gay/green/moral-equivalence precepts.
Thus, we now have drones with brains of mush. 30 years worth in fact, and they grow more in number with each graduating class.
Make some time to review EXACTLY what the National Education Association views as “essential” to our children’s “education”. I warn you…You will be sick to your stomach, and you will find NOTHING having to do with the “3 R’s+science”.
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/2005/aug05/resolutions.html
We MUST take our school system back in order to fix the very real problem you quoted.
@Patvann: Unfortunately, when you are trying to present a document to the public which you expect them to read, brevity is the only way to go about it. Your additions would make the thing too long.
@John Cooper: Thanks for that addition to the reading list. Lots of good stuff coming up in this discussion.
It’s that balancing act which is so very difficult. As we’ve seen in the discussion here there are some on our side who say “damn you all to hell” if we don’t go their way 100%. And yet, if we water down our principles too much, what’s the point?
The biggest problem from my point of view is one which our country has faced since before the Revolutionary war. Then, one third wanted to break from England. One third did not and one third didn’t really care. It’s the same today. A little more than one third of us are conservatives (but may not all agree on what that means) one third are moderates or Independents who don’t really pay much attention to political issues and one third are libs and Dems who will oppose us on everything.
Meanwhile, I’m gratified by the response in the poll on this post. That 3 to 1 margin expressing satisfaction with the job the GOP senate is doing is holding.
@Mike
Unfortunately, you are correct. Which is why our Founders warned us over and over again about having (and keeping) an educated and involved population, and why the Left fights so hard to do the opposite.
(This thread more than makes up for the “Ian/sock-puppet” fiasco. :-))
Mike–
Thank YOU for the great discussion. We’ll have to wait and see how gratified you are with the poll results when this bill passes as it seems on the verge of doing as we speak. You’ve probably heard that Lieberman has caved and Nelson of NE had been threatened with the loss of all military bases in his State. From RedState:
See, the Republicans have been played like a cheap fiddle this entire time. The Democrat leadership cynically introduces some amendment which supposedly “divides” them, never intending to actually pass it. Then they make a big deal of “compromising” by pulling the amendment to bring the “renegades” back into the fold. Meanwhile, the heart of the bill – socialized medicine – is still there and moving forward.
I’m afraid that the Republicans just have no clue regarding how badly they are being fooled. They are making some pretty good speeches, though.
Edit: Say, has anyone noticed who was standing next to Joe Lieberman during his press conference this afternoon? That’s right, Susan Collins. There’s no doubt in my mind that both she and Sen. Olympia Snowe will be stabbing the Republicans in the back on this bill. (As always, I hope I’m wrong.)
@John Cooper: I’ve said repeatedly that I thought Dems would pull the public option at the last minute and declare victory as they roll on to take over our health care.
This bill sucks without a public option or medicare expansion as much as it sucks with one.
But I disagree that our GOP friends are being fooled. They know this sucks too (well maybe not Susan Collins).
The question is: what could they do to stop it that they haven’t already done THAT WOULD WORK?
I’ve asked this about a dozen times on various discussions on this matter and I’ve yet to get an answer.
Every one of the tactics in Redstate’s “Fight” post are delaying tactics at best. The GOP can’t stop anything.
There are still a few cards to play here and it will be interesting to see what happens.
Now, the big question I have is whether that 25% who express dissatisfaction with the Senate GOP effort are going to once again sit on the sidelines as some did in 2006 and 2008 and make it possible for the Dems to fend off the GOP challenge in 2010?
[I do realize that a portion of that 25% are actually Obamatons who just hate the GOP, so the real % of conservatives in that sample is actually much lower]
@Mike
Is the poll reflecting only viewer to this site? if so, the portion of Obamatons is going to be VERY low..No matter there….
You should also remember the emotional-level vote-ratio, because this poll matters nothing in the real world, and it’s also asking a very different question than; “Will you vote next Nov?”
To answer the “big” question, it was estimated that fully 30% of Repubs stayed home in 06 and close to 40 in 08. So guaging the level of outrage at the Dems now, the turnout for Repubs will be huge….even guys like Mr. Cooper are going to go vote, because the rest of the ballot has taken a new importance as well. Even if he doesn’t there will be more than enough to make up for him. The polls now show we get back the House by one member, and those are bound to get even better in 9 months.
So back to the even bigger question…Is there anything at all the repubs can do?
@Patvann: You have a link for those stay at home numbers?
The poll is also posted at Mike’s America which is a much less loony lib friendly site than Flopping Aces. I keep one or two moonbats in a cage and only let them out on weekends. You’d be surprised how many libs there are visiting F.A.
P.S. You’re using that “repubs” lingo…. hmmmm….
patvann;
good posts, but for future reference, if you’re going to focus on a word, and italicize it, make sure you’ve got the right one!
principals = people, e.g. the Founders.
principles = ideas, e.g. the content of the Constitution.
FYI.
@Mike
I remembered the numbers from media reports. (Meaning: Big chance they are wrong)
So I looked again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)
55,000,000 million Repubs in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2006
26,5000,000 Repubs voted nationally = 48% voted 52% stayed home
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/06/report-08-turnout-same-or-only-slightly-higher-than-04/
28% voted…But that number sounds too low to me, and I can’t find any absolutes yet.
What’s wrong with using “Repub”? Short-cut doncha know! (Better than “Cons”ain’t it?)
@Brian
Thank you. Feel free to add!
(You should use more capitol letters ;-))
@Brian
Thank you. Feel free to add!
(You should use more capitol letters 😉 )
Sorry, I don’t caspitulate to ridicule! ;p