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There was no al Qaeda in Iraq until we invaded and, in fact, we seem to have originally supported the group that became AQ as long as they were aiming their troublemaking at Iran and Jordan. In any event, we knew where they were before the invasion because our CIA was working with them and could have taken them out with a single air strike but someone, suspected to be Dick Cheney, nixed the idea. Nonetheless, an impressive list and I appreciate your gathering it. Still doesn’t add up to “tens of thousands” and many of them are disputable as to who was really responsible, but impressive nonetheless. The problem is that ‘religious radicalism’ is a small, but powerful, force in the Middle East (just as it is here, I might add). al Qaeda has become a “brand,” the Coke-Cola of jihad. It is not a centralized organization with a headquarters and job titles and flow charts; it is a lunatic idea that some people have that God is telling them that killing infidels is a holy thing to do. And, it is not that different from believing that God is telling you to kill abortion doctors. People who get direct message from God need to be watched in all societies.
In any event, we are never going to beat these people into submission and I think the last eight years in Iraq and Afghanistan have conclusively shown that. We can beat them with ideas if we are true to our core principles of being an open and democratic society that believes that all men are created equal.
Just curious, who besides Dick Cheney and the Christian Jihadists at The Weekly Standard still claims there was? And, did you hear that Bill Ayres and Jeremiah Wright were in the White House?
I fear Conservatives are making fools of themselves in their desire to fault Obama for everthing. He’s a no-experience novice who makes many blunders, but this really isn’t one of them.
To the question: How did MacArthur treat Hirohito? please tell me we all know the difference between Japan at the time of surrender in WWII and today. The current Emperor said he regrets the war. Japan is now an ally, not an enemy. Of course MacArthur isn’t going to bow to him! That’s absurd.
Exactly what protocol did Obama break? Does it have a number? A name?
I’m an Army wife living in South Korea for the past year and a half (almost). We’ll be here until 2011. Rather than repeating myself, let me just quote myself from my own blog on bowing in the Orient:
The criticism seems to come from the fact that Obama actually bowed, based on a breeched protocol, a protocol which no one seems to be able to specifically identify, and the fact that it was Obama, and that Obama did it.
It’s also based on an opinion piece in the LA Times by Andrew Malcolm titled, “How Low Will He Go? Obama gives Japan’s Emporer a wow bow”. I’m not sure what expertise Mr. Malcolm has in Asian culture, but his argument that “To some in the States, an upright handshake might have looked better” isn’t exactly overwhelming.
As a military wife living in South Korea for a year and a half now, I can tell you that bowing is cultural common place. It is not a sign of disrespect for your own country, it is not a sign of subversion, it is not a sign of obedience, it is not a sign of surrender, it is not a sign of worship; it is a sign of respect.
I bow dozens of times a day. The depth and length is up to the individual and usually determined by the estimate of the person being bowing to. Age and seniority are factors. I bow to the cleaning lady and man, ajumas and adashis daily. I bow to store clerks.
If I want a deep bow, I go down to the local ritzy department store and men adorned in long red coats will give it to me. That’s always special.
Yes, I did see the several smaller bows by the President directed to the Emperor and Empress after his initial, and short, deep bow. That’s akin to a westerner nodding in agreement or giving acknowledgement. I do it when I pass through security points or when I pass Korean construction workers directing traffic.
I also noticed that the Emperor extended his hand to Obama. Both men are trying to meet each other where they are. I also noticed that the Empress gave Obama several slight bows or nods.
Emperor Akihito an historical figure being part of the world’s oldest hereditary monarchy. His country is also a close ally, unlike Saudi Arabia.
Listen, I’m a Reagan Conservative and love watching Obama flub it up, but this is not an issue and we’re being jerks to continue to make a point of out. With all the people I bow to on a daily basis, I think I would probably do a deep bow to the Emperor myself. Obama is trying to tell Japan that we are coming to the table with respect for the Japanese people and respect for your form of government. Let’s not make it more than that. It isn’t.
Now don’t make me defend Barack Obama ever again!
URI
14 years ago
The diplomacy of appeasement does not work. The naivitee of some people is just incredible! We have a leadership in dirty diapers. Can even get the protocols right.
Keep asking what are we going to do for the next three years with these bunch of paranoid lunatics in the White House!
@Amy Proctor: You and I agree on a lot of things. But holding back on dumping on Obama isn’t one of them.
This was the Messiah who promised to solve every problem this country has ever faced and instead he’s a joke.
All you have to do is look at the HUGE switch among Independent voters in Virginia and New Jersey to realize that it isn’t just conservatives who feel that way.
Yes, you can make the case that we should stick to the more serious policy disagreements and not harp on these personal foibles of Obama but where’s the fun in that? Besides, we are now living under the rules for civil political discourse that the left established during the eight years of Bush. I’m not saying we should stoop to their level and advocate defeat of our nation in war, but I also feel that I am not inclined to hold back on legitimate personal criticism of a president.
I respect your desire to take the higher ground and I might join you on that road if I thought for one moment that if we set such a fine example the left would be sure to follow next time a Republican is in the White House.
Wow… has anyone told the previous defacto head of the GOP/conservatives (per the libs)… Rush Limbaugh…. no wait, it’s Sarah Palin… no wait again!…. that now *all* Conservatives are now lumped into a single voice at the moment Andrew Malcom of the LA Times, Ed Morrissey at Hot Air, and Mike’sA at FA blog on a bow?
sigh…
All I can say is, Amy, welcome back with a comment. Been too long. And Mike’s A? Congrats on the promotion usurping Rush… no, Sarah… no….
As for me? No one speaks for me, and I’m a big C conservative. I don’t need no stinkin’ “head” to be my mouthpiece. It’s called individuals, not class grouping.
A bow isn’t appeasement, if that’s what you’re suggesting. It’s a sign of respect. The Emperor extended his hand which is our custom. They mutually reached out to each other.
Obama’s policy of appeasement is failing everywhere he tries to implement it. There’s no doubt about that. But Japan is an ally, and an important one. They are not Iran, Syria or North Korea.
Can anyone quote what protocol was breached?
Mike’s America: You and I agree on a lot of things. But holding back on dumping on Obama isn’t one of them.
LOL! I enjoy dumping on Obama as much as anyone, but I think it brings down ones crediblity to dump using illegitimate reasons. Really, Obama gives us SO MUCH MATERIAL that you have to weed through the most inflammatory stuff to use on your blog. This just isn’t important. I detest Obama but he did nothing wrong. He didn’t sell out America any more than George W. Bush did when he held hands with the Saudi King (Saudi custom) or when Laura Bush wore a head covering in Afghanistan.
As I said, I live in this culture, and bowing is a beautiful sign of humility. I think Obama may have actually done something right for a change.
Look at the Democratic pundits that we like: Juan Williams, that pretty chick on Fox News (blonde hair, can’t remember her name). They’re both liberal Democrats but when Obama is wrong, they criticize him. They have respect among Conservatives becasue they do that. We should do the same thing, not to suck up but to be legitimate. Who’ll believe your arguments if they think you’re being as partisan and biased as the Left?
All I’m saying is that Obama did nothing wrong. When I go into my Korean friends’ homes, I always take my shoes off, I bow to them….. it’s their homes, their culture, and it may not be mine, but I respect what it represents and what it means to them.
I’ll snap a picture the next time I’m downtown at the big Lotte Department store. The greeters are dressed in long red coats and as you enter the parking deck they give you a big deep bow. About the depth that Barack Obama gave to the Emperor. THIS IS ASIA! IT HAPPENS, PEOPLE!!
I spent 2 weeks per month for almost 2 years near Osan A/F Base, working with Samsung Corp. I have a feeling you’re near Camp Humphreys. Hope the kimchee agrees with you!
Read back through my posts on this subject (ignore the smartypants stuff) and I think you’ll see why he was not correct in doing this. I’ve had direct State Department training.
I agree that in the larger scope of things, it’s not a big deal. But what the heck, it makes up for the years and years and years of hearing about BushI throwing up, and another choking on a pretzel. It’s our turn to be petty, and the best part is, we have better material being handed to us! They have SNL, and the Daily Show, we have each other.
I think of this as a happy diversion (for us) from all the truly terrible and dangerous stuff he’s been doing. I sure don’t think it make America look bad, but among the diplomatic bunch, he looked like a twit.
As far as what the nutroots think…They can kiss my butt, because if they haven’t cared what we think about the serious stuff, I sure don’t care what they think now when I tease their “sort of like god”. Besides, the left-nutters make themselves look sillier than I ever could make myself look.
It will all pass, as soon as his next screw-up, which will be very soon, I promise. 🙂
Give a Hoooahh to your man for me, and if you’re ever near Osan, go have a drink at the Dragon Club for me. It’s above and to the left of the Mickee-dee’s on the main drag out from the front gate. If Harabujee (grandmom) is still waiting tables there, bring her string-cheeze, and your drinks will be doubles.
Judge Baer (a Clinton appointee) heard a case in 2003 shortly after the invasion was launched and relied almost solely for his finding on the testimony of former CIA director James Woolsley, a man who makes uber-Dicks Cheney and Armey look like flaming liberals. No one ever collected a dime and, in fact, the Bush administration requested that the proceedings not go any further. National security, you know. No one beyond Steven Hayes and Dick Cheney still persist in the nonsense that Saddam Hussein was so dumb he was encouraging radical shites to make trouble. In any event, even the Bush administration stopped claiming four years ago there was a relationship between Iraq and 9/11; there wasn’t. No weapons of mass destruction either.
And, Mike, you still have not produced a shred of evidence that al Qaeda has killed “tens of thousands” of people around the world. The whole list you put together above adds up to fewer than 10,000–counting the World Trade Center–and assuming that every one of them was al Qaeda. That’s a lot and it’s terrible but it not TENS OF THOUSANDS.
Note this tidbit from Wikipedia’s entry on AQI: “According to both the July 2007 National Intelligence Estimate and the Defense Intelligence Agency reports AQI accounted for 15 percent of attacks in Iraq. However, the Congressional Research Service noted in its September 2007 report that attacks from al-Qaeda are less than two percent of the violence in Iraq and criticized the Bush administration’s statistics, noting that its false reporting of insurgency attacks as AQI attacks has increased since the “surge” operations began.”
BTW, seen the picture of Nixon bowing to the Emperor yet?
You’re the one who claimed tens of thousands, not me. I’m assuming that you have simply become frustrated at your inability to back that claim up and decided to go snarky. We’ll talk when you’re feeling better. I’m going to bed.
Dr.D
14 years ago
“We never lower our flag to another country or person, and our President should never bow to anyone under any circumstances.”
That is certainly true, but unfortunately, we really don’t have a President right not, just a pretender. The Current Occupant hates this country and is doing everything he can thing of to degrade it on the world stage.
BTW, I find commenting here difficult sometimes. Sometimes my comments disappear or are blocked. Can you lighten the security measures? I’d love to comment here more frequently.
PatVan, HOOAH. We’re in Daegu, the wonderful city of 2.5 million. Love it here. I was in Osan a few months ago. Great shopping, but my moral compass won’t allow me to buy the knock offs because I know it’s the black market. It’s legit or nothing for me.
It’s not just the kimchi that agrees with me. Bilgogi, bi-bim-bap… its’ awesome. We eat out more than we eat at home. I’ll miss the food more than anything when we leave.
What protocol via your info from the State Dept. did Obama break?
@Jerry Bowles: Jerry, if you are completely unaware of the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died in various terrorist attacks directed by Al Queda then you should go to bed as you clearly don’t have a clue.
Authoritative statistics for 2003 and 2004 do not exist. But Iraq Body Count, a private, British-based group, has tallied civilian deaths from media reports and other sources since the war’s start. Combining its figures, which are corroborated by the AP’s own reporting and that of other reputable sources, with the Health Ministry figures shows that more than 110,000 Iraqis have died in the war.
And NO Jerry, they weren’t all killed by Americans.
Combine that with the thousands and thousands killed on September 11th and other attacks and my claim is proven.
You want to retract your comment or continue to look like an imbecile while suggesting Al Queda just got lucky on 9/11?
Of your comments directed to me, all have already been rebutted thoroughly by others in this thread but I do still have a thing or two left to say about your NYC jury trial idea. I was on my way to the Pentagon on 9-11 when the plane hit and I’ve also followed the farcical trial proceedings of Zacarias Moussasoui in Northern Virginia. After tens of millions of dollars were squandered and years of insults and grandstanding by Moussasoui, he’s finally sitting in prison. Considering that he was apprehended here in the United States, there wasn’t much of a choice about trying him here but I think he was allowed to use our system to the advantage of al Qaeda.
There is no reason to bring Khalid Sheik Mohammed to the United States for trial. He is neither an American citizen nor was he captured in the United States. There is no reason that he or his co-conspirators should enjoy the protection of the Constitution. KSM and all of the other terrorists that have been captured around the world do NOT even deserve the various protections granted to them through the misapplication of the Geneva Conventions. Illegal combatants like KSM use vulnerable civilian populations to hide and to target. This tactic ensures that innocent civilians will die or suffer in far greater numbers than if Jihadists observed the laws of land warfare.
To grant Constitutional rights or Geneva Convention protections to terrorists not only gives them a legitimacy they do not deserve but it also does nothing to dissuade Jihadists from directly targeting civilian populations or using them as human shields. With the recent announcement that Obama’s Justice Department intends to try terrorists in US courts, we’ve effectively offered incentives for continued savagery.
Jerry Bowles, have you ever considered that your eagerness to have a show trial in NYC will inspire other animals like KSM to seek the limelight? Do you care? I believe that the WTC conspirators would have received a fair trial at Guantanamo. A military tribunal was deemed adequate for war criminals at Nuremburg, what makes KSM so exceptional for you that he should receive the same rights that you would have as an American citizen? You seem overwrought about whether America is “liked” around the world and for some reason you seem to think a show trial in NYC will achieve this end. I just cannot understand any of that line of thinking but I’ll ask you this: Did the United States’ reputation suffer around the globe because of the Nuremburg trials? What about the lesser known trials conducted for Japanese war criminals?
Instead we’re going to allow NYC to be used as a stage for a lunatic to insult America and the Islamic faith. Please tell me why you think that this will be good and for whom?
Just curious, who besides Dick Cheney and the Christian Jihadists at The Weekly Standard still claims there was?
That’s funny….I thought the Weekly Standard was run by Jewish Jihadists…
I don’t have a ready-made grocery list of contacts/links. But links have been long established. What is unclear is the depth of any collaboration. Btw, it is a myth that a “secular” Saddam would not cooperate with committed Islamic terrorists. His ties to Islamic terrorism is documented.
Where did Zarqawi flee to for medical attention (part of the global jihad movement, even if one wants to claim he was not a part of al Qaeda at the time)? Where did many al Qaeda fighters flee to, after their defeat in Afghanistan (wasn’t just Pakistan)? Even before our invasion of both countries, al Qaeda had contact with Iraqi intelligence officers that went beyond pleasantries over tea and truffles.
And, did you hear that Bill Ayres and Jeremiah Wright were in the White House?
You need to find some fresher bait to wave in front of us, Jerry. 😉
No one beyond Steven Hayes and Dick Cheney still persist in the nonsense that Saddam Hussein was so dumb he was encouraging radical shites to make trouble.
Oh, and we here at FA. Check out the Iraqi Perspectives Project. One of Scott’s posts here.
In any event, even the Bush administration stopped claiming four years ago there was a relationship between Iraq and 9/11; there wasn’t.
News flash: The Bush Administration never made that claim 6 years ago, as part of their case for war.
Do not confuse two different arguments:
“We’ve had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th … There’s no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties.” –George W. Bush, September 17, 2003
No weapons of mass destruction either.
So? How does that delegitimize the decision to invade? Saddam’s responsible for that snafu.
Note this tidbit from Wikipedia’s entry on AQI: “According to both the July 2007 National Intelligence Estimate and the Defense Intelligence Agency reports AQI accounted for 15 percent of attacks in Iraq. However, the Congressional Research Service noted in its September 2007 report that attacks from al-Qaeda are less than two percent of the violence in Iraq and criticized the Bush administration’s statistics, noting that its false reporting of insurgency attacks as AQI attacks has increased since the “surge” operations began.”
Last week yet another news story seemed to be lost in the shuffle as it came out of Iraq. It was eclipsed by the debate over plans for the future of operations in Iraq. It was left in the dust as false enemy propaganda stories of American soldiers burning Iraqi civilians alive successfully interdicted wire service reporting and made it to the mainstream media before being completely discredited by the blogosphere.
This lost news story is a simple one. The day after President Bush claimed that Al Queda is in Iraq and fomenting violence, 2007 Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi dismissed the claim, and pretended that there are no Al Queda in Iraq. She called the claim, “sad.” However, the next day Multinational Forces held another of their completely ignored weekly briefings. At this briefing, the MNF announced that despite Al Queda’s claims to have lost 4000+ Jihadi fighters in Iraq, the reality is that over 7000 have been killed/captured since October 2004.
7000 Al Queda have been killed or captured in Iraq in 26 months.
This 7000 does not include the number of suicide bombers in Iraq who are almost 100% foreign fighters (typically Al Queda and/or their affiliates). Data on the number of suicide bombings has become sketchy and is no longer being publicly tracked because there are so many. At last count there has been an average of 80 suicide bombings and/or attempts every month, and that number has been on the rise since mid 2003. According to the latest Brookings Institute Iraq Index Report, at least another 2500 Jihadis have killed themselves in Iraq-most Al Queda or Al Queda affiliates since October 2004.
9500 Al Queda have gone to Iraq to be killed, captured, or to kill themselves in the last 26 months.
Opponents of the war will quickly toss out one of three talking points upon hearing these facts:
1) The False claim that Al Queda wasn’t in Iraq until the invasion in 2003
2) A misleading statement that Al Queda is only a small number of insurgents and thus only does a small portion of the killing associated with the insurgency
3) Or, they would point to misleading body counts that have proclaimed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed in Iraq either by US forces or as a result of the invasion.
The claim that Al Queda wasn’t in Iraq before the invasion is a misleading claim. Al Queda is a conglomerate or Coalition of the Killing made up of different terrorist groups which are organized to work together by Al Queda leadership. Many of these Al Queda affiliated groups were in Iraq before the invasion (as were some of the most notorious terrorist leaders in modern history). After the invasion they formed their own smaller network called Al Queda in the Land of the Two Rivers (Iraq). This was done to act more independently from the Al Queda leadership that had-by the time of the invasion-largely cut off from directly commanding and coordinating attacks in favor of facilitating coordinated campaigns and letting local leaders run those campaigns-leaders such as Abu Musab Al Zarqawi and his dozen+ successors.
In November 2002 widely publicized reports claimed that remnants of Al Queda in Afghanistan had been scattered to the winds, and hundreds-even thousands of Al Queda had fled through Iran into Iraq. Invading US Marines and 3rd Infantry Division troops encountered foreign fighters by the thousands. Many were fought and killed at terrorist training camps in Iraq preparing for attacks around Europe and even the United States (as documented by the Iraqi Perspectives Project Report).
Personal accounts of the battles fought during the invasion have been written en masse and entire bookshelves can be filled with war stories from corporals, sergeants, young officers, embedded reporters, retired generals who accompanied the invasion, and more. All report having personally encountered, fought, and killed foreign terrorists by the thousands in Saddam’s Iraq (March 2003).
Thunder Run, by David Zucchino
(describes 5000-6000 Syrian mercenaries, foreign fighters, jihadis, and Islamofascists)
American Soldier, by Gen Tommy Franks
(describes thousands to tens of thousands of foreign fighter terrorists from all over the ME)
The March Up, by Maj Gen Ray L Smith
(describes “thousands” of foreign fighters/terrorists roughly in the neighborhood of 2000-4000 in the various training camps captured by the US Marines-some still occupied by US Marines)
War Stories, by Oliver North
(describes “thousands” of foreign fighters/terrorists roughly in the neighborhood of 2000-4000 in the various training camps captured by the US Marines-some still occupied by US Marines)
Generation Kill, by Evan Wright
(describes “thousands” of foreign fighters/terrorists)
Under Fire, by various Reuters reporters
(describes “thousands” of foreign fighters/terrorists)
Embedded, by various reporters
(describes “thousands” of foreign fighters/terrorists)
Body counts are a new thing to come out from the Multinational Forces public affairs officers, but similar statistics are nothing new to opponents of the war. They’ve been claiming that 100,000 Iraqis or more were killed in the first year of the invasion since that year (2003). Lately these reports of 650,000 have been killed since the invasion. In both cases the numbers were estimates based on polling of 1000 of the 28million Iraqis.
Specific body counts have been dramatically lower and diligently tracked by Iraq Body Count. Those statistics of bodies actually reported are about 8% of the estimated claims-roughly 50,000 at this moment. Of the 50,000 reported deaths since the invasion, 10-15,000 appear to be the result of the US invasion (a far cry from the 650,000 guesstimate), and the rest are attributed to people being killed by insurgents, by sectarian violence, and a number of criminal murders found in every country. Further, it is unclear how many of the 15,000 killed as a result of US or Coalition fire are Al Queda, but it IS clear that most of those reportedly killed as a result of US or Coalition fire are young men fitting the profile of Jihadi terrorists and/or insurgents.
When the dust on the Iraq War settles, and it will someday, a true account of the war’s effect on Al Queda will be made as well as its effect on the Iraqi people. Until then, many opponents of the war will likely continue to distort the claims of its cost while ignoring the cost/effect on the enemy. Someday, even Speaker Pelosi will recognize that Al Queda was in Iraq, is in Iraq, and is dying in Iraq. Al Queda’s leaders have labeled it The Central Front in the War, and they have lost well over 10,000 Jihadi fighters in that fight so far.
Amy and Patvann,
I am still haunted by the smell of kimchee from my year living in Osan and commuting by schoolbus to Yongsan Army Base, while in the 8th grade. It reeked everywhere of it.
As precursor, I want to point out that “protocol” is not a law, or a mandate. So in the strictest sense, he can do what ever he wants to do, short of assaulting the poor man. Think of protocol as: “behaviors acceptable to all parties, taking customs, history, and observers into account”.
There are obviously different levels of protocol, such as you’ve seen from the store clerks, and retail/hospitality employees. There is also business protocol, and then there is the one we are focused on in this regard, and that’s the diplomatic sort.
There is a big difference between the three, but retail/hospitality and business are closer together than diplomatic. Diplomatic is really is own ball of wax.
Each country will establish norms that fit the image they wish to convey, and each of these norms are tailored by keeping relationship, history, and goals in mind with each country they are presently communicating with.
Another important impetus, is the customs and norms that we have set for ourselves within the framework of ongoing relationships with the world’s leaders, so as to create a steady and predictable expectation-of-behavior.
So with all that esoteric crap out of the way, lets look at where Obama’s (now two) deep bows have deviated from the norms of our universally accepted protocol…
(It was much, much worse in my eyes, that he bowed to the Saudi King, but I already made fun of him for it, so I won’t go there again.)
1. Since our Founders wrote the words: “All men are created equal”, none of our leaders have been asked, nor expected to bow to anyone, at any time. We will not be asked, because we’ve made it very clear from Washington on up, that we would not view any King or Monarch as a “Superior”. Even though the French were our friends during the revolution, Ben Franklin made it clear that he would not bow to their king under any circumstances, and that set the standard. Fortunately he was loved by the French, and had a way of conveyance that didn’t insult when he stated our intention in this regard.
2. No other President has ever broken this precedent.
3. If Obama (or any other high-ranking official) wished to modify protocol, or simply be a little different, he should have done a great deal of research beforehand. As I pointed out earlier, he did it all wrong, on so many levels that it borders on rude, if not childish. The Japanese are the world’s foremost leader in all things “protocolish”, that his actions are twice as bad, because of where his foux-pas occurred. (The Dutch for eg. aren’t all that into it.)
4.If Obama wanted to change things up a bit, it was his duty to inform his State Department, so that they could accommodate his wishes, and first teach him the correct way (after trying to talk him out of it) and to prepare his hosts. He didn’t, and he ended up looking clumsy, and out of place, much to our right-wing amusement, but deep down, even his supporters cringed, now that this is the second time he’s done such a thing.
5. Because the Japanese are so into custom and protocol, having him surprise his host with such a change, can be seen as very rude. It’s a good thing the Emperor is better at it than Obama, and that he is our friend. The Japanese would never point it out, but it is seen and remembered.
I covered the who, when, and why folks deep-bow in Japan to the Emperor in an earlier post, so you can peruse that if you like. But the biggest thing to remember is how different the bow is used and meant between diplomatic verses retail/business, and the difference between the deep-bow and the head-bob.
Obama should have done exactly what the Emperor was ready to do…A friendly eye-to-eye look, a firm handshake, a tiny 5-degree straight-backed bow, and a small head-bob. These movements combine our two cultures, and that willing mutuality is the best thing in the eyes of the Japanese, and indeed us as well.
(Betcha didn’t expect this long of a response, but I’m kinda into this crap.)
Now can I make fun of him some more, at least until tomorrow? 🙂
Skookum
14 years ago
PV, I have followed this thread all day with my blackberry while working, a long day by the way, both work and the thread. Again, you have nailed the argument, at least in my humble opinion. To continue and try to improve on your response is pointless. Thank you. Well done, well done indeed! Skook.
Davey
14 years ago
It’s probably a good thing that there aren’t any nations that practice open mouth french kissing as a formal greeting. Ewww, that’s a picture that I don’t want in my head!
As promised to the talented Amy Proctor (let’s all make it a point to visit her site on a regular basis), I shall now throw my last bomb in this matter at Obama the Geisha.
Taking idiomatic expressions literally is an example of concrete thinking, and indicates arrested psychological development, which is a well known and prominent feature in the landscape of the Left.
Here’s another…
Japanese fellow overheard in a bar… “the A-bomb I understand. We were at war. But dropping the 0-Bomb on us? That’s a low blow.”
ps – read the article I linked to. I din’t make up the fact taht the Japanese are quite embarrassed by O’Bungler’s bumbling behavior. He really is a clown.
You make a nice case; but I am still with Amy’s perspective on this. I fear if we protest all things Obama where he’s damned in our eyes no matter what he does, we become exactly what we detested from the KosKiddies for the last 8 years.
Maybe Obama did break protocol/tradition/decorum (I really don’t see it; the video itself doesn’t look as damning as the photo); but we have to pick and choose our political battles. This one, as far as I can see, is a political loser for conservatives. I’m looking and hearing from friends in the moderate middle and mainstream Democrats, non-committed apolitical independents, and this story is making us all look like a bunch of whackos on the lunatic fringe. It does nothing for the conservative movement to make a molehill like this into a mountain.
I know Mike sometimes says this sort of knitpicking and incivility and BDS-driven sniping served the liberals well, and it’s time we stooped and engaged in the same mud-slinging. But I disagree. Especially in light of MSM that leans majority liberal, able to steer the narrative.
Making an issue of this is a non-winner for our side.
As I alluded to before, you’re right that this is a small thing in light of the big things he’s doing.
But this will blow over soon enough, and I sure don’t see it getting much traction with the voters, precisely because as you point out, the MSM controls the narrative. With us hard-core political junkies on the right, I see it lasting for a few days, and we’ll be onto something else. Maybe it’s because we all know how little of an effect this will have, and the past over-indulgences on the part of the left, is why we have our “fun” with stuff like this. I sure as heck don’t feel the need to spread it to my usual mailing-list of friends and family, regardless of how into protocol I am.
Like I said to Amy, I’ve had my fun and now I’m done.
The bottom line is that I agree with you. The left has no real ammo to shoot us with, so we must do our part not to give them any, even if in reality, it’s just BBs. Over-reacting over this, dilutes what we really need to focus on, and makes us look desperate.
If you mean this is just a symptom of what’s really wrong with him, then I agree that there are a lot more important things to worry about. However, as the link I gave above indicated, the Japanese think it makes him look like a fool. And who wants to make deals with, or who takes pride in the company of, a fool?
While your point is valid, the Japanese don’t vote here, nor are anyone but us “wingers” aware of their reaction. Think long-term and bigger…
Let use your point about making deals.
When the time comes, and a deal is not made, THAT is the time we pounce. We pounce on the fact that Obama and Demo’s can’t make deals with long-term allies. Meanwhile we chuckle to ourselves about the seed of that distrust. Then we loudly support the candidate who gives us an avenue toward reconciliation.
O’Clueless insists that “restoring our image abroad” should a national priority, and at the same time acts like Clouseau, without the attendant good fortune. It may not matter to you that the President is a nitwit, but to many of us it does.
This is an issue THEY made, and hammered away on over and over and over and over and . . . I don’t see anything wrong in rubbing their faces in it, especially when what they are doing really IS tarnishing America’s image.
Here’s a short list of why O’Blunder is “superior” to GW… http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=63811549237&topic=11939
(note that it includes the Cipher bowing to the Kink of Sado Arabia, which I admit is far more offensive than bowing to the Japanese, who at least usually bow back.)
Now, if all you are saying is not to go overboard on it, fine. But to avoid it altogether? No, that’s just playing into their hands, as is overdoing it.
Don’t cut them any slack, because if you do, they’ll hang you with it.
@Wordsmith said: “I know Mike sometimes says this sort of knitpicking and incivility and BDS-driven sniping served the liberals well, and it’s time we stooped and engaged in the same mud-slinging. “
I never said that and would never suggest we
“stoop” to the same level:
It may not matter to you that the President is a nitwit, but to many of us it does.
I’ll not whack you profusely about the head and shoulders with the ClueBat of Doom(tm) for that horrible miss-read of my position, because deep down I know you speak from an emotional position… and the fact that I like you.
Let’s clarify my position, so you can climb back down, shall we?
-Obama is a nitwit. The nittiest wit ever. A piece of crap that couldn’t run an paper-route. IT MATTERS TO ME A GREAT DEAL
These buttmunchers on the Left have dissed us and those we voted for forever. Overandoverandoverandover. They’ve done it though every medium we’ve invented. I voted for Reagan…I know your pain.
I in-fact HAVE said, and if not, implied, that we “not go overboard” just as Amy and Wordsmith have. If you would get your underwear unbunched, you would see that my posts have detailed his idiocy and mistakes in a manner that no one in any blog, nor any media have.
What we (Wordsmith, Amy and I) are putting forth is:
“That was fun, let’s move on, cuz here comes some more.”
Along with:
“If we over-do this, we give them ammo, (even if we know that ammo is wet)…The MSM will, (and I mean WILL) spin our (rightful) reaction against us. Cuz they can. They will lie, and omit to do it.
We must be aware of the battlespace. Let’s fight smarter, not just harder.
Honest, I’ll be in front of you with the next nit-witty thing he does. And if you ever accuse me of being soft on him again, I’ll beat your mother for having you, then I’ll hit you so hard, your dog will hurt. 😉
Or perhaps we should just not criticize Obama at all and see if that high road example we set is emulate by our Dem friends?
C-mon man. You know damn well nobody is suggesting this.
You’re too knowledgeable to take this tact in defending your position. It’s beneath you.
Skookum
14 years ago
Okay kids, there are going to be much bigger and better fish to fillet; but if a Ronald Reagan prototype had the reins and behaved in such an ignorant and classless manner in front of a symbolic head of state that is adored and loved by his people, I would ask why he is behaving like such an inept buffoon and making such an ass of himself in front of the world, especially our allies who may be the only ones left who will back us some day.
To the Japanese he is behaving like the ultimate barbarian and has no idea how to show dignity and respect; they look at him like the Roman Patricians looked at the barbarians who dropped in from Northern Europe to rape and plunder; in other words, they look at him in utter shock and disbelief. In America, we think everything is a classless society where people from the gutter can communicate and rub shoulders with kings and that scratching your crotch and speaking with sexual innuendo is perfectly normal. He is behaving like a typical Chicago ghetto thug in polite society and expects it to fly; the rest of the world doesn’t necessarily make social icons and politicians out of athletes and ghetto thugs.
Any of the rest of us would hire competent people rather than incompetent yes men, we would learn the proper procedure and practice several times rather than walking out cold and taking the chance of making a fool of ourselves. This self-absorbed ignorant fool thinks the world is going to change according to the new rules of Obama Mania: in reality, the rest of the leaders of the free world are waiting impatiently for this clod to walk off the world stage. I have said my piece and will only refer to this episode in the future to illustrate a point.
@Patvann: You may have forgotten how shortly after the Obumbler was inaugurated that some GOP leaders suggested something very similar. Sorry, can’t find the link but I think it was at the GOP senate winter retreat that th suggestion was put forward that we shouldn’t criticize Obummah.
So yes, I’ll stand by my earlier comment. I’m not suggesting that Wordsmith or Amy would follow that course but clearly some have.
Of course the GOP did get over their hesitation to criticize Obama following the explosion of the Tea Parties.
I do think this is a valid story as Obama’s minions claimed he was the smartest man ever to sit in the Oval Office and he can’t even get something like protocol right.
Will I spend the next week on this topic? No, certainly not. Neither will I shy away from stories like this in the future. 92 comments and counting shows that it strikes a chord with the readership.
And it’s not like I’m going to start running “birther” stuff just to get comments….
So, I guess that demonstrates how fair and balanced I am!
Right?
P.S. For Amy and Wordsmith: I’ll just add that Fox News has been covering this story as well as ABC’s Jake Tapper. I’m in good company.
. . .and speaking about taking the high road. . .Tea Parties. . .politics is a contact sport — not a well-mannered High Tea.
Here is the latest DCCC fund-raising email — this one from Jon Vogel-DCCC Executive Director. . .sound like the Dems are sitting back planning their next ice cream social?
————————————————————————————————–
To XXXXXXX —
Thanks to you, it’s been an amazing two weeks of progress.
Health insurance reform with a strong public option has passed the House. Together, we also defeated Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and the ‘tea party’ crowd by winning the NY-23 Special Election, picking up another Republican-held seat. This marked an incredible fifth straight special election victory.
With a tumultuous couple of weeks behind us but even more challenges ahead, DCCC Chairman Chris Van Hollen recorded this special video message for you – one of our most dedicated supporters.
We also wanted to bring you the latest edition of @Stake with all the latest news from the campaign trail and here in Washington, DC.
Health Insurance Reform Update
On November 7, 2009, the House of Representatives made history by passing the Affordable Health Care for America Act to deliver on the promise of affordable health insurance for the middle class. The legislation now moves to the Senate and a final bill will be sent to President Obama for his signature in the months ahead.
Many of you have already shared your own story about this issue. Congresswoman Debbie Halvorson, one of the new Democrats that you helped to elect last year, put together a moving video telling some of her constituents’ personal stories and explaining why she voted ‘yes’ on reform.
Heard Around Town
Latest Republican Outrages: Just when we think we’ve seen the lowest that House Republicans will go to try and kill health insurance reform, they surprise us. Here are some of their most outrageous comments of late.
Representative Michele Bachmann (R-MN) claimed health care would not be extended to the disabled.
NRCC Chairman Pete Sessions (R-TX) compared women to being like smokers while defending health insurance company discrimination.
Representative Virginia Foxx (R-NC) even said that health care reform is a bigger threat than ‘any terrorist right now in any country.’ Shockingly, she wasn’t the only House Republican comparing health care to terrorism…
Help us fight fear with facts: Click here to download a Health Care Fact Check Card and invite your friends and family to do the same.
Check out Representative Debbie Halvorson’s video about why we need Health Insurance Reform and share your own story.
Tea Party Activists Burn Effigies And Dig In for 2010 Midterms
Undeterred by the embarrassing loss that you handed them in the NY-23 Special Election, the Glenn Beck worshiping ‘tea party’ extremists are digging in for the long term. First they announced that they’re forming their own political action committee with the goal of raising millions to attack Democrats who voted for health insurance reform.
Now they’ve taken their protests to shocking new lows. Next weekend, they are planning to burn Democratic Members of Congress in effigy and more of these sickening displays are planned for the week ahead.
Sign our petition calling on Republican Members of Congress to denounce these despicable actions by the ‘tea party’ crowd and instead join Democrats in a civil and constructive debate on bringing urgently-needed health insurance reform.
With so much work ahead to fight the attacks, finish the job on health insurance reform, and prepare for 2010, stay tuned for the next edition of @Stake. Thank you again for driving our success.
Sincerely,
Jon Vogel
DCCC Executive Director
Smorgasbord
14 years ago
You bow to those who you feel are SUPERIOR to you. Obama wants to be king, not president. You can’t be king in a Republic (WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY). I believe Obama is trying to bring the USA down so he can be appointed king. He is bowing to dictators and shunning our friends.
My view has always been that 9/11 was a spectacular crime committed by a small band of international criminals who got incredibly lucky on a perfect day in the Northeast–one of the few days of the year when all the planes departed on time It was never an ‘invasion’ or “act of aggression” by a foreign power (like, Pearl Harbor). There were no governments involved, no armies, no secret intelligence agencies. It should have been treated as a crime from day one, with the perpetrators tracked down and brought to justice (or killed if they resisted).
Also note in regards to your “small band of international criminals”,
“Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.”
-President Bush in an address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People, United States Capitol, Washington D.C., September 20, 2001.
I’m not talking about what you said in this thread, but elsewhere in a couple of other places, after the ’08 Election loss. I might not have you cited accurately, but the gist of it seemed to be you saying “the tactic seemed to work well for the left these last 8 years, so let’s adopt some of their methods”.
So far it’s a memorable trip. He established a new precedent for how American presidents should pay obeisance to kings, emperors, monarchs, sovereigns and assorted other authentic man-made masters of the universe. He stopped just this side of the full grovel to the emperor of Japan, risking a painful genuflection if his forehead had hit the floor with a nasty bump, which it almost did. No president before him so abused custom, traditions, protocol (and the country he represents). Several Internet sites published a rogue’s gallery showing how other national leaders – the prime ministers of Israel, India, Slovenia, South Korea, Russia and Dick Cheney among them – have greeted Emperor Akihito with a friendly handshake and an ever-so-slight but respectful nod (and sometimes not even that).
Now we know why Mr. Obama stunned everyone with an earlier similar bow to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, only the bow to the Japanese emperor was far more flamboyant, a sign of a really deep sense of inferiority.
Former vice president Cheney said: “There is no reason for an American president to bow to anyone. Our friends and allies don’t expect it, and our enemies see it as a sign of weakness.”
And a little something from the University of Connecticut College Republicans:
But, just to repeat, I am completely with Mike on this, as he says, “… I believe there is nothing wrong in pointing out again and again and again what a politically illiterate weanie Obama is.”
There was no al Qaeda in Iraq until we invaded and, in fact, we seem to have originally supported the group that became AQ as long as they were aiming their troublemaking at Iran and Jordan. In any event, we knew where they were before the invasion because our CIA was working with them and could have taken them out with a single air strike but someone, suspected to be Dick Cheney, nixed the idea. Nonetheless, an impressive list and I appreciate your gathering it. Still doesn’t add up to “tens of thousands” and many of them are disputable as to who was really responsible, but impressive nonetheless. The problem is that ‘religious radicalism’ is a small, but powerful, force in the Middle East (just as it is here, I might add). al Qaeda has become a “brand,” the Coke-Cola of jihad. It is not a centralized organization with a headquarters and job titles and flow charts; it is a lunatic idea that some people have that God is telling them that killing infidels is a holy thing to do. And, it is not that different from believing that God is telling you to kill abortion doctors. People who get direct message from God need to be watched in all societies.
In any event, we are never going to beat these people into submission and I think the last eight years in Iraq and Afghanistan have conclusively shown that. We can beat them with ideas if we are true to our core principles of being an open and democratic society that believes that all men are created equal.
@Jerry Bowles:
Jerrrrrry……You’re not new here, are you? 😉
Snicker.
Just curious, who besides Dick Cheney and the Christian Jihadists at The Weekly Standard still claims there was? And, did you hear that Bill Ayres and Jeremiah Wright were in the White House?
I almost missed this little gem:
Judge Harold Baer, Jr. disagrees with you.
I know how much you claim to respect the US judicial system. Let’s see how quickly you attempt to poo-poo Hizzoner’s judicial ruling on this matter.
@Jerry Bowles: Do you deny that Al Queda has killed thousands in Iraq?
That’s the point you demanded I inform you on.
Al Queda has killed tens of thousands AROUND THE WORLD and you attempt to dismiss the threat.
What a fool!
I fear Conservatives are making fools of themselves in their desire to fault Obama for everthing. He’s a no-experience novice who makes many blunders, but this really isn’t one of them.
To the question: How did MacArthur treat Hirohito? please tell me we all know the difference between Japan at the time of surrender in WWII and today. The current Emperor said he regrets the war. Japan is now an ally, not an enemy. Of course MacArthur isn’t going to bow to him! That’s absurd.
Exactly what protocol did Obama break? Does it have a number? A name?
I’m an Army wife living in South Korea for the past year and a half (almost). We’ll be here until 2011. Rather than repeating myself, let me just quote myself from my own blog on bowing in the Orient:
Listen, I’m a Reagan Conservative and love watching Obama flub it up, but this is not an issue and we’re being jerks to continue to make a point of out. With all the people I bow to on a daily basis, I think I would probably do a deep bow to the Emperor myself. Obama is trying to tell Japan that we are coming to the table with respect for the Japanese people and respect for your form of government. Let’s not make it more than that. It isn’t.
Now don’t make me defend Barack Obama ever again!
The diplomacy of appeasement does not work. The naivitee of some people is just incredible! We have a leadership in dirty diapers. Can even get the protocols right.
Keep asking what are we going to do for the next three years with these bunch of paranoid lunatics in the White House!
@Amy Proctor: You and I agree on a lot of things. But holding back on dumping on Obama isn’t one of them.
This was the Messiah who promised to solve every problem this country has ever faced and instead he’s a joke.
All you have to do is look at the HUGE switch among Independent voters in Virginia and New Jersey to realize that it isn’t just conservatives who feel that way.
Yes, you can make the case that we should stick to the more serious policy disagreements and not harp on these personal foibles of Obama but where’s the fun in that? Besides, we are now living under the rules for civil political discourse that the left established during the eight years of Bush. I’m not saying we should stoop to their level and advocate defeat of our nation in war, but I also feel that I am not inclined to hold back on legitimate personal criticism of a president.
I respect your desire to take the higher ground and I might join you on that road if I thought for one moment that if we set such a fine example the left would be sure to follow next time a Republican is in the White House.
But when has that ever happened?
Wow… has anyone told the previous defacto head of the GOP/conservatives (per the libs)… Rush Limbaugh…. no wait, it’s Sarah Palin… no wait again!…. that now *all* Conservatives are now lumped into a single voice at the moment Andrew Malcom of the LA Times, Ed Morrissey at Hot Air, and Mike’sA at FA blog on a bow?
sigh…
All I can say is, Amy, welcome back with a comment. Been too long. And Mike’s A? Congrats on the promotion usurping Rush… no, Sarah… no….
As for me? No one speaks for me, and I’m a big C conservative. I don’t need no stinkin’ “head” to be my mouthpiece. It’s called individuals, not class grouping.
A bow isn’t appeasement, if that’s what you’re suggesting. It’s a sign of respect. The Emperor extended his hand which is our custom. They mutually reached out to each other.
Obama’s policy of appeasement is failing everywhere he tries to implement it. There’s no doubt about that. But Japan is an ally, and an important one. They are not Iran, Syria or North Korea.
Can anyone quote what protocol was breached?
LOL! I enjoy dumping on Obama as much as anyone, but I think it brings down ones crediblity to dump using illegitimate reasons. Really, Obama gives us SO MUCH MATERIAL that you have to weed through the most inflammatory stuff to use on your blog. This just isn’t important. I detest Obama but he did nothing wrong. He didn’t sell out America any more than George W. Bush did when he held hands with the Saudi King (Saudi custom) or when Laura Bush wore a head covering in Afghanistan.
As I said, I live in this culture, and bowing is a beautiful sign of humility. I think Obama may have actually done something right for a change.
Look at the Democratic pundits that we like: Juan Williams, that pretty chick on Fox News (blonde hair, can’t remember her name). They’re both liberal Democrats but when Obama is wrong, they criticize him. They have respect among Conservatives becasue they do that. We should do the same thing, not to suck up but to be legitimate. Who’ll believe your arguments if they think you’re being as partisan and biased as the Left?
All I’m saying is that Obama did nothing wrong. When I go into my Korean friends’ homes, I always take my shoes off, I bow to them….. it’s their homes, their culture, and it may not be mine, but I respect what it represents and what it means to them.
I’ll snap a picture the next time I’m downtown at the big Lotte Department store. The greeters are dressed in long red coats and as you enter the parking deck they give you a big deep bow. About the depth that Barack Obama gave to the Emperor. THIS IS ASIA! IT HAPPENS, PEOPLE!!
Hi Amy!
I spent 2 weeks per month for almost 2 years near Osan A/F Base, working with Samsung Corp. I have a feeling you’re near Camp Humphreys. Hope the kimchee agrees with you!
Read back through my posts on this subject (ignore the smartypants stuff) and I think you’ll see why he was not correct in doing this. I’ve had direct State Department training.
I agree that in the larger scope of things, it’s not a big deal. But what the heck, it makes up for the years and years and years of hearing about BushI throwing up, and another choking on a pretzel. It’s our turn to be petty, and the best part is, we have better material being handed to us! They have SNL, and the Daily Show, we have each other.
I think of this as a happy diversion (for us) from all the truly terrible and dangerous stuff he’s been doing. I sure don’t think it make America look bad, but among the diplomatic bunch, he looked like a twit.
As far as what the nutroots think…They can kiss my butt, because if they haven’t cared what we think about the serious stuff, I sure don’t care what they think now when I tease their “sort of like god”. Besides, the left-nutters make themselves look sillier than I ever could make myself look.
It will all pass, as soon as his next screw-up, which will be very soon, I promise. 🙂
Give a Hoooahh to your man for me, and if you’re ever near Osan, go have a drink at the Dragon Club for me. It’s above and to the left of the Mickee-dee’s on the main drag out from the front gate. If Harabujee (grandmom) is still waiting tables there, bring her string-cheeze, and your drinks will be doubles.
Keep that man away from the “juicey-girls”!
🙂
Judge Baer (a Clinton appointee) heard a case in 2003 shortly after the invasion was launched and relied almost solely for his finding on the testimony of former CIA director James Woolsley, a man who makes uber-Dicks Cheney and Armey look like flaming liberals. No one ever collected a dime and, in fact, the Bush administration requested that the proceedings not go any further. National security, you know. No one beyond Steven Hayes and Dick Cheney still persist in the nonsense that Saddam Hussein was so dumb he was encouraging radical shites to make trouble. In any event, even the Bush administration stopped claiming four years ago there was a relationship between Iraq and 9/11; there wasn’t. No weapons of mass destruction either.
And, Mike, you still have not produced a shred of evidence that al Qaeda has killed “tens of thousands” of people around the world. The whole list you put together above adds up to fewer than 10,000–counting the World Trade Center–and assuming that every one of them was al Qaeda. That’s a lot and it’s terrible but it not TENS OF THOUSANDS.
Note this tidbit from Wikipedia’s entry on AQI: “According to both the July 2007 National Intelligence Estimate and the Defense Intelligence Agency reports AQI accounted for 15 percent of attacks in Iraq. However, the Congressional Research Service noted in its September 2007 report that attacks from al-Qaeda are less than two percent of the violence in Iraq and criticized the Bush administration’s statistics, noting that its false reporting of insurgency attacks as AQI attacks has increased since the “surge” operations began.”
BTW, seen the picture of Nixon bowing to the Emperor yet?
@Jerry Bowles: You want to take a guess how many thousands Al Queda killed in Iraq?
You figure it out then get back to me.
You’re the one who claimed tens of thousands, not me. I’m assuming that you have simply become frustrated at your inability to back that claim up and decided to go snarky. We’ll talk when you’re feeling better. I’m going to bed.
“We never lower our flag to another country or person, and our President should never bow to anyone under any circumstances.”
That is certainly true, but unfortunately, we really don’t have a President right not, just a pretender. The Current Occupant hates this country and is doing everything he can thing of to degrade it on the world stage.
BTW, I find commenting here difficult sometimes. Sometimes my comments disappear or are blocked. Can you lighten the security measures? I’d love to comment here more frequently.
HOOAH..
PatVan, HOOAH. We’re in Daegu, the wonderful city of 2.5 million. Love it here. I was in Osan a few months ago. Great shopping, but my moral compass won’t allow me to buy the knock offs because I know it’s the black market. It’s legit or nothing for me.
It’s not just the kimchi that agrees with me. Bilgogi, bi-bim-bap… its’ awesome. We eat out more than we eat at home. I’ll miss the food more than anything when we leave.
What protocol via your info from the State Dept. did Obama break?
@Jerry Bowles: Jerry, if you are completely unaware of the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died in various terrorist attacks directed by Al Queda then you should go to bed as you clearly don’t have a clue.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/23/iraq/main4964055.shtml
And NO Jerry, they weren’t all killed by Americans.
Combine that with the thousands and thousands killed on September 11th and other attacks and my claim is proven.
You want to retract your comment or continue to look like an imbecile while suggesting Al Queda just got lucky on 9/11?
@Amy Proctor: Comment security measures are the purview of our lord and master Curt who is playing in Miami at the moment.
As you can see, despite the higher level of security know-nothings like Jerry manage to get through.
@Jerry Bowles:
Of your comments directed to me, all have already been rebutted thoroughly by others in this thread but I do still have a thing or two left to say about your NYC jury trial idea. I was on my way to the Pentagon on 9-11 when the plane hit and I’ve also followed the farcical trial proceedings of Zacarias Moussasoui in Northern Virginia. After tens of millions of dollars were squandered and years of insults and grandstanding by Moussasoui, he’s finally sitting in prison. Considering that he was apprehended here in the United States, there wasn’t much of a choice about trying him here but I think he was allowed to use our system to the advantage of al Qaeda.
There is no reason to bring Khalid Sheik Mohammed to the United States for trial. He is neither an American citizen nor was he captured in the United States. There is no reason that he or his co-conspirators should enjoy the protection of the Constitution. KSM and all of the other terrorists that have been captured around the world do NOT even deserve the various protections granted to them through the misapplication of the Geneva Conventions. Illegal combatants like KSM use vulnerable civilian populations to hide and to target. This tactic ensures that innocent civilians will die or suffer in far greater numbers than if Jihadists observed the laws of land warfare.
To grant Constitutional rights or Geneva Convention protections to terrorists not only gives them a legitimacy they do not deserve but it also does nothing to dissuade Jihadists from directly targeting civilian populations or using them as human shields. With the recent announcement that Obama’s Justice Department intends to try terrorists in US courts, we’ve effectively offered incentives for continued savagery.
Jerry Bowles, have you ever considered that your eagerness to have a show trial in NYC will inspire other animals like KSM to seek the limelight? Do you care? I believe that the WTC conspirators would have received a fair trial at Guantanamo. A military tribunal was deemed adequate for war criminals at Nuremburg, what makes KSM so exceptional for you that he should receive the same rights that you would have as an American citizen? You seem overwrought about whether America is “liked” around the world and for some reason you seem to think a show trial in NYC will achieve this end. I just cannot understand any of that line of thinking but I’ll ask you this: Did the United States’ reputation suffer around the globe because of the Nuremburg trials? What about the lesser known trials conducted for Japanese war criminals?
Instead we’re going to allow NYC to be used as a stage for a lunatic to insult America and the Islamic faith. Please tell me why you think that this will be good and for whom?
@Jerry Bowles #54:
That’s funny….I thought the Weekly Standard was run by Jewish Jihadists…
I don’t have a ready-made grocery list of contacts/links. But links have been long established. What is unclear is the depth of any collaboration. Btw, it is a myth that a “secular” Saddam would not cooperate with committed Islamic terrorists. His ties to Islamic terrorism is documented.
Where did Zarqawi flee to for medical attention (part of the global jihad movement, even if one wants to claim he was not a part of al Qaeda at the time)? Where did many al Qaeda fighters flee to, after their defeat in Afghanistan (wasn’t just Pakistan)? Even before our invasion of both countries, al Qaeda had contact with Iraqi intelligence officers that went beyond pleasantries over tea and truffles.
You need to find some fresher bait to wave in front of us, Jerry. 😉
@Jerry Bowles #63:
Oh, and we here at FA. Check out the Iraqi Perspectives Project. One of Scott’s posts here.
There’s also Mark Eichenlaub’s site, as well as our own Saddam/al Qaeda connection and Saddam’s Documents categories.
News flash: The Bush Administration never made that claim 6 years ago, as part of their case for war.
Do not confuse two different arguments:
“We’ve had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th … There’s no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties.” –George W. Bush, September 17, 2003
So? How does that delegitimize the decision to invade? Saddam’s responsible for that snafu.
Here’s something Scott wrote up a while back:
Amy and Patvann,
I am still haunted by the smell of kimchee from my year living in Osan and commuting by schoolbus to Yongsan Army Base, while in the 8th grade. It reeked everywhere of it.
@Amy
As precursor, I want to point out that “protocol” is not a law, or a mandate. So in the strictest sense, he can do what ever he wants to do, short of assaulting the poor man. Think of protocol as: “behaviors acceptable to all parties, taking customs, history, and observers into account”.
There are obviously different levels of protocol, such as you’ve seen from the store clerks, and retail/hospitality employees. There is also business protocol, and then there is the one we are focused on in this regard, and that’s the diplomatic sort.
There is a big difference between the three, but retail/hospitality and business are closer together than diplomatic. Diplomatic is really is own ball of wax.
Each country will establish norms that fit the image they wish to convey, and each of these norms are tailored by keeping relationship, history, and goals in mind with each country they are presently communicating with.
Another important impetus, is the customs and norms that we have set for ourselves within the framework of ongoing relationships with the world’s leaders, so as to create a steady and predictable expectation-of-behavior.
So with all that esoteric crap out of the way, lets look at where Obama’s (now two) deep bows have deviated from the norms of our universally accepted protocol…
(It was much, much worse in my eyes, that he bowed to the Saudi King, but I already made fun of him for it, so I won’t go there again.)
1. Since our Founders wrote the words: “All men are created equal”, none of our leaders have been asked, nor expected to bow to anyone, at any time. We will not be asked, because we’ve made it very clear from Washington on up, that we would not view any King or Monarch as a “Superior”. Even though the French were our friends during the revolution, Ben Franklin made it clear that he would not bow to their king under any circumstances, and that set the standard. Fortunately he was loved by the French, and had a way of conveyance that didn’t insult when he stated our intention in this regard.
2. No other President has ever broken this precedent.
3. If Obama (or any other high-ranking official) wished to modify protocol, or simply be a little different, he should have done a great deal of research beforehand. As I pointed out earlier, he did it all wrong, on so many levels that it borders on rude, if not childish. The Japanese are the world’s foremost leader in all things “protocolish”, that his actions are twice as bad, because of where his foux-pas occurred. (The Dutch for eg. aren’t all that into it.)
4.If Obama wanted to change things up a bit, it was his duty to inform his State Department, so that they could accommodate his wishes, and first teach him the correct way (after trying to talk him out of it) and to prepare his hosts. He didn’t, and he ended up looking clumsy, and out of place, much to our right-wing amusement, but deep down, even his supporters cringed, now that this is the second time he’s done such a thing.
5. Because the Japanese are so into custom and protocol, having him surprise his host with such a change, can be seen as very rude. It’s a good thing the Emperor is better at it than Obama, and that he is our friend. The Japanese would never point it out, but it is seen and remembered.
I covered the who, when, and why folks deep-bow in Japan to the Emperor in an earlier post, so you can peruse that if you like. But the biggest thing to remember is how different the bow is used and meant between diplomatic verses retail/business, and the difference between the deep-bow and the head-bob.
Obama should have done exactly what the Emperor was ready to do…A friendly eye-to-eye look, a firm handshake, a tiny 5-degree straight-backed bow, and a small head-bob. These movements combine our two cultures, and that willing mutuality is the best thing in the eyes of the Japanese, and indeed us as well.
(Betcha didn’t expect this long of a response, but I’m kinda into this crap.)
Now can I make fun of him some more, at least until tomorrow? 🙂
PV, I have followed this thread all day with my blackberry while working, a long day by the way, both work and the thread. Again, you have nailed the argument, at least in my humble opinion. To continue and try to improve on your response is pointless. Thank you. Well done, well done indeed! Skook.
It’s probably a good thing that there aren’t any nations that practice open mouth french kissing as a formal greeting. Ewww, that’s a picture that I don’t want in my head!
Thank you Skook!
As promised to the talented Amy Proctor (let’s all make it a point to visit her site on a regular basis), I shall now throw my last bomb in this matter at Obama the Geisha.
JAPANESE EMBARRASSED BY ZERO-BLANKO
I can just hear them asking themselves, “How is it possible that America beat us, when they are stupid enough to elect such a fool?”
So, yes, Amy Proctor, this WAS one of his many blunders, made all the more colossal by the fact that it was so public.
when you start to hear voices it is a problem for you do not pin it on the president,thank you.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Taking idiomatic expressions literally is an example of concrete thinking, and indicates arrested psychological development, which is a well known and prominent feature in the landscape of the Left.
Here’s another…
Japanese fellow overheard in a bar… “the A-bomb I understand. We were at war. But dropping the 0-Bomb on us? That’s a low blow.”
ps – read the article I linked to. I din’t make up the fact taht the Japanese are quite embarrassed by O’Bungler’s bumbling behavior. He really is a clown.
INAPPROPRIATE BOWING JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG
Why do Obma’s supporters continue to do so? And why does the MSM remain silent?
(Rhetorical questions to which informed and honest people already know the answers.)
did you say Obomb well i think there is a japanese way they meant yobombs did they?thank you
Patvann,
You make a nice case; but I am still with Amy’s perspective on this. I fear if we protest all things Obama where he’s damned in our eyes no matter what he does, we become exactly what we detested from the KosKiddies for the last 8 years.
Maybe Obama did break protocol/tradition/decorum (I really don’t see it; the video itself doesn’t look as damning as the photo); but we have to pick and choose our political battles. This one, as far as I can see, is a political loser for conservatives. I’m looking and hearing from friends in the moderate middle and mainstream Democrats, non-committed apolitical independents, and this story is making us all look like a bunch of whackos on the lunatic fringe. It does nothing for the conservative movement to make a molehill like this into a mountain.
I know Mike sometimes says this sort of knitpicking and incivility and BDS-driven sniping served the liberals well, and it’s time we stooped and engaged in the same mud-slinging. But I disagree. Especially in light of MSM that leans majority liberal, able to steer the narrative.
Making an issue of this is a non-winner for our side.
Wordsmith.
As I alluded to before, you’re right that this is a small thing in light of the big things he’s doing.
But this will blow over soon enough, and I sure don’t see it getting much traction with the voters, precisely because as you point out, the MSM controls the narrative. With us hard-core political junkies on the right, I see it lasting for a few days, and we’ll be onto something else. Maybe it’s because we all know how little of an effect this will have, and the past over-indulgences on the part of the left, is why we have our “fun” with stuff like this. I sure as heck don’t feel the need to spread it to my usual mailing-list of friends and family, regardless of how into protocol I am.
Like I said to Amy, I’ve had my fun and now I’m done.
The bottom line is that I agree with you. The left has no real ammo to shoot us with, so we must do our part not to give them any, even if in reality, it’s just BBs. Over-reacting over this, dilutes what we really need to focus on, and makes us look desperate.
“…yobombs…” – @ilovebeeswarzone:
Gesundheit! Your welcome.
@Wordsmith:
If you mean this is just a symptom of what’s really wrong with him, then I agree that there are a lot more important things to worry about. However, as the link I gave above indicated, the Japanese think it makes him look like a fool. And who wants to make deals with, or who takes pride in the company of, a fool?
@ Yonason
While your point is valid, the Japanese don’t vote here, nor are anyone but us “wingers” aware of their reaction. Think long-term and bigger…
Let use your point about making deals.
When the time comes, and a deal is not made, THAT is the time we pounce. We pounce on the fact that Obama and Demo’s can’t make deals with long-term allies. Meanwhile we chuckle to ourselves about the seed of that distrust. Then we loudly support the candidate who gives us an avenue toward reconciliation.
@Patvann:
O’Clueless insists that “restoring our image abroad” should a national priority, and at the same time acts like Clouseau, without the attendant good fortune. It may not matter to you that the President is a nitwit, but to many of us it does.
This is an issue THEY made, and hammered away on over and over and over and over and . . . I don’t see anything wrong in rubbing their faces in it, especially when what they are doing really IS tarnishing America’s image.
Here’s a short list of why O’Blunder is “superior” to GW…
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=63811549237&topic=11939
(note that it includes the Cipher bowing to the Kink of Sado Arabia, which I admit is far more offensive than bowing to the Japanese, who at least usually bow back.)
Now, if all you are saying is not to go overboard on it, fine. But to avoid it altogether? No, that’s just playing into their hands, as is overdoing it.
Don’t cut them any slack, because if you do, they’ll hang you with it.
@Wordsmith said: “I know Mike sometimes says this sort of knitpicking and incivility and BDS-driven sniping served the liberals well, and it’s time we stooped and engaged in the same mud-slinging. “
I never said that and would never suggest we
“stoop” to the same level:
However, I believe there is nothing wrong in pointing out again and again and again what a politically illiterate weanie Obama is.
Now, if someone can point out which stories of real significance I have overlooked while engaging in this bit of Obumbler bashing please do.
Or perhaps we should just not criticize Obama at all and see if that high road example we set is emulate by our Dem friends?
@ Yonason
I’ll not whack you profusely about the head and shoulders with the ClueBat of Doom(tm) for that horrible miss-read of my position, because deep down I know you speak from an emotional position… and the fact that I like you.
Let’s clarify my position, so you can climb back down, shall we?
-Obama is a nitwit. The nittiest wit ever. A piece of crap that couldn’t run an paper-route. IT MATTERS TO ME A GREAT DEAL
These buttmunchers on the Left have dissed us and those we voted for forever. Overandoverandoverandover. They’ve done it though every medium we’ve invented. I voted for Reagan…I know your pain.
I in-fact HAVE said, and if not, implied, that we “not go overboard” just as Amy and Wordsmith have. If you would get your underwear unbunched, you would see that my posts have detailed his idiocy and mistakes in a manner that no one in any blog, nor any media have.
What we (Wordsmith, Amy and I) are putting forth is:
“That was fun, let’s move on, cuz here comes some more.”
Along with:
“If we over-do this, we give them ammo, (even if we know that ammo is wet)…The MSM will, (and I mean WILL) spin our (rightful) reaction against us. Cuz they can. They will lie, and omit to do it.
We must be aware of the battlespace. Let’s fight smarter, not just harder.
Honest, I’ll be in front of you with the next nit-witty thing he does. And if you ever accuse me of being soft on him again, I’ll beat your mother for having you, then I’ll hit you so hard, your dog will hurt. 😉
@ Mike
C-mon man. You know damn well nobody is suggesting this.
You’re too knowledgeable to take this tact in defending your position. It’s beneath you.
Okay kids, there are going to be much bigger and better fish to fillet; but if a Ronald Reagan prototype had the reins and behaved in such an ignorant and classless manner in front of a symbolic head of state that is adored and loved by his people, I would ask why he is behaving like such an inept buffoon and making such an ass of himself in front of the world, especially our allies who may be the only ones left who will back us some day.
To the Japanese he is behaving like the ultimate barbarian and has no idea how to show dignity and respect; they look at him like the Roman Patricians looked at the barbarians who dropped in from Northern Europe to rape and plunder; in other words, they look at him in utter shock and disbelief. In America, we think everything is a classless society where people from the gutter can communicate and rub shoulders with kings and that scratching your crotch and speaking with sexual innuendo is perfectly normal. He is behaving like a typical Chicago ghetto thug in polite society and expects it to fly; the rest of the world doesn’t necessarily make social icons and politicians out of athletes and ghetto thugs.
Any of the rest of us would hire competent people rather than incompetent yes men, we would learn the proper procedure and practice several times rather than walking out cold and taking the chance of making a fool of ourselves. This self-absorbed ignorant fool thinks the world is going to change according to the new rules of Obama Mania: in reality, the rest of the leaders of the free world are waiting impatiently for this clod to walk off the world stage. I have said my piece and will only refer to this episode in the future to illustrate a point.
@Patvann: You may have forgotten how shortly after the Obumbler was inaugurated that some GOP leaders suggested something very similar. Sorry, can’t find the link but I think it was at the GOP senate winter retreat that th suggestion was put forward that we shouldn’t criticize Obummah.
So yes, I’ll stand by my earlier comment. I’m not suggesting that Wordsmith or Amy would follow that course but clearly some have.
Of course the GOP did get over their hesitation to criticize Obama following the explosion of the Tea Parties.
I do think this is a valid story as Obama’s minions claimed he was the smartest man ever to sit in the Oval Office and he can’t even get something like protocol right.
Will I spend the next week on this topic? No, certainly not. Neither will I shy away from stories like this in the future. 92 comments and counting shows that it strikes a chord with the readership.
And it’s not like I’m going to start running “birther” stuff just to get comments….
So, I guess that demonstrates how fair and balanced I am!
Right?
P.S. For Amy and Wordsmith: I’ll just add that Fox News has been covering this story as well as ABC’s Jake Tapper. I’m in good company.
. . .and speaking about taking the high road. . .Tea Parties. . .politics is a contact sport — not a well-mannered High Tea.
Here is the latest DCCC fund-raising email — this one from Jon Vogel-DCCC Executive Director. . .sound like the Dems are sitting back planning their next ice cream social?
————————————————————————————————–
To XXXXXXX —
Thanks to you, it’s been an amazing two weeks of progress.
Health insurance reform with a strong public option has passed the House. Together, we also defeated Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and the ‘tea party’ crowd by winning the NY-23 Special Election, picking up another Republican-held seat. This marked an incredible fifth straight special election victory.
With a tumultuous couple of weeks behind us but even more challenges ahead, DCCC Chairman Chris Van Hollen recorded this special video message for you – one of our most dedicated supporters.
We also wanted to bring you the latest edition of @Stake with all the latest news from the campaign trail and here in Washington, DC.
Health Insurance Reform Update
On November 7, 2009, the House of Representatives made history by passing the Affordable Health Care for America Act to deliver on the promise of affordable health insurance for the middle class. The legislation now moves to the Senate and a final bill will be sent to President Obama for his signature in the months ahead.
Many of you have already shared your own story about this issue. Congresswoman Debbie Halvorson, one of the new Democrats that you helped to elect last year, put together a moving video telling some of her constituents’ personal stories and explaining why she voted ‘yes’ on reform.
Heard Around Town
Latest Republican Outrages: Just when we think we’ve seen the lowest that House Republicans will go to try and kill health insurance reform, they surprise us. Here are some of their most outrageous comments of late.
Representative Michele Bachmann (R-MN) claimed health care would not be extended to the disabled.
NRCC Chairman Pete Sessions (R-TX) compared women to being like smokers while defending health insurance company discrimination.
Representative Virginia Foxx (R-NC) even said that health care reform is a bigger threat than ‘any terrorist right now in any country.’ Shockingly, she wasn’t the only House Republican comparing health care to terrorism…
Help us fight fear with facts: Click here to download a Health Care Fact Check Card and invite your friends and family to do the same.
Check out Representative Debbie Halvorson’s video about why we need Health Insurance Reform and share your own story.
Tea Party Activists Burn Effigies And Dig In for 2010 Midterms
Undeterred by the embarrassing loss that you handed them in the NY-23 Special Election, the Glenn Beck worshiping ‘tea party’ extremists are digging in for the long term. First they announced that they’re forming their own political action committee with the goal of raising millions to attack Democrats who voted for health insurance reform.
Now they’ve taken their protests to shocking new lows. Next weekend, they are planning to burn Democratic Members of Congress in effigy and more of these sickening displays are planned for the week ahead.
Sign our petition calling on Republican Members of Congress to denounce these despicable actions by the ‘tea party’ crowd and instead join Democrats in a civil and constructive debate on bringing urgently-needed health insurance reform.
With so much work ahead to fight the attacks, finish the job on health insurance reform, and prepare for 2010, stay tuned for the next edition of @Stake. Thank you again for driving our success.
Sincerely,
Jon Vogel
DCCC Executive Director
You bow to those who you feel are SUPERIOR to you. Obama wants to be king, not president. You can’t be king in a Republic (WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY). I believe Obama is trying to bring the USA down so he can be appointed king. He is bowing to dictators and shunning our friends.
@Mike
Good…and I forget nothing.
Now let’s look forward to tomorrow’s screwup, and hope we can repair it 3 years hence.
@Jerry Bowles #46:
This was actually one of the quotes I meant to bring up, but forgot to dig up in my earlier response.
Also note in regards to your “small band of international criminals”,
“Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.”
-President Bush in an address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People, United States Capitol, Washington D.C., September 20, 2001.
And I love this point, here.
Mike #88,
I’m not talking about what you said in this thread, but elsewhere in a couple of other places, after the ’08 Election loss. I might not have you cited accurately, but the gist of it seemed to be you saying “the tactic seemed to work well for the left these last 8 years, so let’s adopt some of their methods”.
@Wordsmith: I am not against throwing the dirt back in their faces. The lefties deserve it.
@Patvann: Let’s not leave the topic just yet.
This from Wesley Pruden in the Washington Times:
And from Politico:
And a little something from the University of Connecticut College Republicans:
Great video.
So how do we get CNN/ABC/NBC/CBS/PBS/MSNBC to show it while explaining protocol?
@Patvann:
Works for me. Thanks for the clarification.
But, just to repeat, I am completely with Mike on this, as he says, “… I believe there is nothing wrong in pointing out again and again and again what a politically illiterate weanie Obama is.”
After all, they would do the same for us.
@yonason and Mike.
Hey, brothers have spats. Let’s go kick ass. 🙂
Here’s my truce-offering.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/PhotoPopup.aspx?id=512640
[courtesy embed by Mike]