Just when you think there is no hope for some, and that catastrophic events will *always* be used by activists to promote an agenda, we find we can be pleasantly surprised. Case in point, English environmental activist and ArrestBlair website founder, George Monbiot, may have raised more than a few eyebrows when he penned an article, delineating a complete turn around on nuclear power plants in UK’s The Guardian today.
One has to give some thumbs up to an adversary who is willing to do a major, public mea culpa, telling the world in a succinct bold headline, “Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power”. It appears that Japan’s woes and battles have actually sold him on an energy source that he was tepid on prior to the earthquake and tsunami.
You will not be surprised to hear that the events in Japan have changed my view of nuclear power. You will be surprised to hear how they have changed it. As a result of the disaster at Fukushima, I am no longer nuclear-neutral. I now support the technology.
A crappy old plant with inadequate safety features was hit by a monster earthquake and a vast tsunami. The electricity supply failed, knocking out the cooling system. The reactors began to explode and melt down. The disaster exposed a familiar legacy of poor design and corner-cutting. Yet, as far as we know, no one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation.
Some greens have wildly exaggerated the dangers of radioactive pollution. For a clearer view, look at the graphic published by xkcd.com. It shows that the average total dose from the Three Mile Island disaster for someone living within 10 miles of the plant was one 625th of the maximum yearly amount permitted for US radiation workers. This, in turn, is half of the lowest one-year dose clearly linked to an increased cancer risk, which, in its turn, is one 80th of an invariably fatal exposure. I’m not proposing complacency here. I am proposing perspective.
~~~Yes, I still loathe the liars who run the nuclear industry. Yes, I would prefer to see the entire sector shut down, if there were harmless alternatives. But there are no ideal solutions. Every energy technology carries a cost; so does the absence of energy technologies. Atomic energy has just been subjected to one of the harshest of possible tests, and the impact on people and the planet has been small. The crisis at Fukushima has converted me to the cause of nuclear power.
If you’re not familiar with Mr. Monbiot, Wiki gives the basic run down… including authorship of multiple environmental activist books, such as his 2008 offer, “Bring on the Apocalypse: Six Arguments for Global Justice”. His stance on war is certainly obvious, as I mentioned above, when he not only founded ArrestBlair.org, but offered a reward for anyone willing to do a peaceful arrest of the former UK PM, Tony Blair, so he could be brought to trial for crimes against humanity. And just to show others he wasn’t adverse to doing the deed himself, he did attempt a similar citizen’s arrest of John Bolton in 2008 for the same reasoning.
Needless to say, on this forum, it’s likely that few of us will find common ground with Monbiot. But then, we can celebrate the small things and accomplishments when we find a formerly staunch opponent, admitting his errors. It’s one more sane voice that reenters the debate.
That said, Mr. Monbiot not only deserves credit for his new revelations on nuclear power, but for past mea culpas that reversed his activism for veganism. It was only this past September that he found himself in the pecular position of endorsing the book, “Meat: A Benign Extravagance,”> that ran contrary to his beliefs for both the world’s grain supply vs human malnutrition, and his ill-informed assumptions on slaughtering tecniques and the perceived water “waste”. Mr. Monbiot is having a truly interesting year that shakes the foundation of his beliefs.
Kudos to him, and here’s to more possibilities that others can see the light. We can only hope it doesn’t take something as dire and desperate as the Japanese had to endure in order to provide that enlightenment to others in the future.
Unrelated to Monbiot, but applicable to those trying to place a more realistic perspective on Japan’s woes with the power plant events is Jeffrey Lord at The American Spectator. Lord, and his parents, are local denizens of the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant that is, to this day, still chugging along.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
Wonderful news.
Mr, Monbiot joins one of Greenpeace’s founders, Patrick Moore, who, in 2008, became a pro-nuclear environmentalist.
And before either of them was Friends of the Earth trustee, British Bishop Hugh Montefiore, now deceased, who was forced to resign after writing a pro-nuclear article.
Irving Kristol, the self-proclaimed founder of Neoconservatism, once described a neoconservative as a “liberal who had been mugged by reality”.
It still fits.
Its been an interesting 2 weeks. According to all the MSM, including Fox News, we were Fukushima…ed.
I’ve read tons of George Moonbot’s alternate universe, over at Climate Depot. He’s made a complete fool of himself over the last five years, whilst climate skeptics have had a field day debunking his theories.
Not much has been said about the wide open nuclear blasts that ended the war with Japan. California should have rotted away with cancer by now.
Mata, I’ve recently learned their seems to be a growing movement that wants more study into the idea that low levels of radiation may not actually be as bad as portrayed by the media. I’m not going to site any studys simply because I don’t have the attention span to read them before posting them, however I think as we have seen over and over in the case of global warming the media and scientists do tend to make a lot of claims that are scientific heresy. We should review those claims, find out which types of radiation are a concern and in what doses, adjust as necessary.
Even before this disaster their was people buying potassium iodide in case of a “dirty bomb” terrorist attack and using special cell phone cases to protect themselves from radiation poisoning; nether of which is proven to result in mass death via radiation poisoning.
Yeah, Fukushiam pretty much puts the last nail in the coffin of nuclear power. Thank you crooks and incompetents at TEPCO!!!!
Sad, because it really was America’s last, best hope for energy independence.
@Zac:
Are you high? The evidence is OVERWHELMING that shit like what is happening now in Fukushima, like Chernobyl, is beyond lethal to man.
I’m dumbfounded by your ability to rationalize how this WON’T be harmful. You take the cake for “Denial thinking”.
Maybe if you just keep telling yourself that this isn’t a big deal over and over maybe even you’ll begin to believe it.
@Zac:
Do us all a favor; if you can’t bother to educate yourself on an issue like this, don’t comment on it. Ignorance is not bliss, it’s dangerous.
For what its worth, he has move up alot in my view. I agree that if there was alternative energy source that is 100% clean we should moveto it, BUT until then we have to accept what we have and use it carefully.
@Ivan, @Ivan, and @Ivan…. first of all, harsh, dude. Zac was courteous enough to give me a heads up about “studies”, tho I would have preferred links. And if I remember correctly, Zac is a recently naturalized US citizen. Therefore it’s entirely possible that English is not his first language, and even more likely that nuclear engineering and medical effects are not his field.
Can’t blame the guy for not wanting to wade thru tedious reports that may be more difficult for him to understand than others. Bad form, Ivan.
Secondly, I would suggest you put your hotlinks where your cybermouth is for that “overwhelming” evidence. Reality and historic statistics are not on your side.
You’re right, I was harsh, I didn’t know he’s new to the US.
But since when do I have to link to the knowledge that anything beyond background levels is bad? Did you and others not know that radiation can kill one? Come on Mata, let’s get real here. Unlike AGW, radiation and lethality is accepted science.
No problem, but you should direct your mea culpas to Zac, not me.
No one doubts that close proximity to high levels of radiation are lethal. That, however, is not what you implied when ringing the death knell for nuke power plants, Ivan. First of all, Chernobyl is a different plant that had no containment vessel. Completely different structure and Russia and the Ukraine handled that badly. TMI is more akin to Fukushima… both in the media hype exaggerating the effects, and the perimeter involved. i.e. radioactive clouds racing towards the US… uh ahem.
Unlike TMI, Fukushima’s problems stemmed from a double natural event, and was compounded by the lack of power which prohibited constant pumping to water for cooling. They have power to three of the reactors now, and that includes the instrumentation in most to help with diagnoses and monitoring. Unit 3 still has it’s problems. It’s been a round robin of predictable events… heating, steam venting, releases or explosions, and injection of water… all without electrical power. Hopefully they can have the coolant systems back in action so they can monitor and repair/address, instead of constantly reacting in defensive mode.
There is a predictable radius of areas affected, which have already been evacuated. This minimizes effects on the locals and life. Even the workers onsite have not, to the IAEAs or other monitoring agents, been exposed to the lethal doses. Radiation is being monitored by over 47 towns/locations. Obviously foods and ingestibles closer to the site would be affected, which is why those are being banned. Tokyo’s water system comes from the NE regions, which is why there is presence in some of their tap waters. At this latest point, it’s considered above average for infants, with more vunerable systems.
However, as even the experts point out, with the amount of levels in the food, it would take years of ingesting those amounts to have the effects you seem to believe.
All in all, those affected by the plant and radiation pale in numbers to those affected by the earthquake and tsunami, and the radius is mostly predictable and confined. And if you want to avoid exposure to radiation, then you’d better find another planet to live on. It’s around you everywhere, and a brief exposure to higher levels is not the death sentence you pronounce.
So yes… if you want to support your statement…
… I would suggest you provide links to those who are exposed to lethal amounts of radiation, or have died because of Fukushima. A situation that bears no resemblence to Chernobyl whatsoever in design and/or response, and deterioration.
@MataHarley:
RE:
I was watching a news program the other night as a Japanese TV news was being translated from one of the temporary shelters.
A man was laying on the floor on a mat and he had prostate cancer.
A woman was laying near him and she had diabetes.
Another woman was suffering from arthritus.
None of them, nor anybody else there had their medications.
And the problem isn’t just those three.
The median age in Japan is 44 years.
It is an old country, demographically.
The shelter did not have enough volunteers to care for all of the elderly and sick.
The country doesn’t have enough young able-bodied people to care for all of the elderly and the sick.
Those elderly and sick are the very ones that are eating the contaminated foods and drinking the contaminated milk and tap water.
Maybe they wouldn’t live long enough to become ill from the increased radiation inside their bodies.
Babies and young children are not supposed to eat or drink contaminated foods or drinks.
But there are so few adults in their prime I would think they ought to be told to avoid such food and drink, too.
But they are not.
oievaay, Nan G. Some serious assumptions and leaps there…
As the IAEA monitoring site points out:
Now what was all that about the elderly and sick, eating contaminated foods, drinking the contaminated milk and tap water, and not being “told”??
I am no scientist, however I do know one thing about science: The Scientific Method.
1.Ask a Question
2.Do Background Research
3.Construct a Hypothesis
4.Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
5.Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
6.Communicate Your Results
So under this method people can make a theory even if that theory is not yet proven, Or has been disproved in previous study. That’s science. We don’t know it all yet.
Of course socialism has a different scientific method.
1.Make a statement
2.Review politically approved research
3.Move to step 4.
4.Prove your statement by rigging an experiment
5.Publish findings
6.Personally discredit those who don’t agree with you
I never said I didn’t think radiation was potentially harmful I said we should review and adjust when necessary. Here is my source.
@MataHarley:
Mata,
Media hype aside, this situation is far worse than Chernobyl. Yes, I know the difference in the reactors, but we’re venting cecisum and iodine showing up in Tokyo’s water supply and the food-chain. We also have the Fukushim workers today fleeing for their lives due to the black smoke. That’s not steam Mata, that’s something else if it’s black smoke.
Let’s face it, they should have entombed #4 last week, but TEPCO would lose a lot of money!
You may feel better saying,”it will all work out in the end”, but I dont’ think that is going to happen.
Oh what a bunch of horse manure. Again, links please. And you’d better be prepared to go against the superior knowledge of the nuclear power industry watchdogs on that one. Don’t you bother to visit the IAEA’s monitoring site? Haven’t you followed any of the links I provided on the threads about this event??
Are you under the naive impression that injection of saltwater leaves a reactor useful afterwards? Pray tell, what do you think they are attempting to save by not using that route immediately?
Ivan, some links and updates for you from monitoring sources
MIT’s nuke engineering department
IAEA’s monitoring update log
TEPCO’s technical updates
Japan’s MEXT site (Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology)
MEXT radiation levels monitoring
Japan’s Atomic Industrial Forum updates
@MataHarley:
Mata, I didn’t say ”they weren’t told,” I said only infants and young children are being advised NOT to eat the stuff.
Your # 15 adds:
My point was demographically, Japan is short on young adults.
Maybe young adults ought to also be told not to eat this stuff.
Although you seem to believe that it takes years of continual eating contaminated foods, when I have heard the opposite.
That even one radioactive cesium particle in the body can cause mutation/cancerous changes to one cell at a time.
That cell, on dividing can spread the cancer and kill the person or animal …. eventually.
But it doesn’t require additional tainted foods, although that surely doesn’t help.
Nan G… inre the levels you’re concerned with, the ingestion and time frame. Please note that the levels they are detecting are all Iodine 131. As the MIT site notes, it’s a very short half life.
Thank you Mata for the understanding about my not having sources but I think the NYT makes the point in a way we can all enjoy reading.
Ivan i can assure you I’m not high, although I have no sources on that. It seems on the internet if a guy makes brash controversial statements he gets more attention. Like dr johns current thread title, or all of your posts. Its a kind of popularity contest I think. You really sound alarming, you remind me of a socialist and that is funny. Ether way I will be looking forward to seeing your sources on the subject.
Mata?
Is someone at FA removing the like/dislike votes on this thread?
I know for a fact I put a plus on a comment and now that plus is gone.
Glitchy?
That’s an auto thing I believe, Nan G. None of we authors has any power over that feature, and I’m not sure Curt does either.
I notice there was a “capture” feature added in the last hour or so. Perhaps it played with the other plug in. Dunno…
@MataHarley:
And the workers were evacuated today because everything is good?
And then there was this:
Tokyo water unsafe for babies, food bans imposed
Karyn Poupee
March 24, 2011 – 7:24AM
Now, care to dispute that? Of course not, you’re not going to try and paper over this calamity.
Here is the link to the story:
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/tokyo-water-unsafe-for-babies-food-bans-imposed-20110324-1c6yg.html
Now let’s do some math, shall we? From Fukushima to Tokyo, where the water is now leathal for infants, the distance is 142 miles.
Let’s find out how many square miles that is from Tokyo to Fukushima: Pie*R^2 = 3.14x(142)^2 = 63,000 square miles.
So all of Hokkaido falls within that circle of radius 142. How bad do you think the iodine levels in the tap-water are on Hokkaido?????
Let’s face it, while you and I support nuclear energy, this is nothing less than a disaster of the first magnitude. Day after day this plays out for all the world to see in it’s splendid incompetence by the industrialists of TEPCO.
Please, Mata, don’t stick up for them; they’re in the process of ruining a wonderful nation.
Oh fer heavens sake, Ivan… if you’d bother to use any of the links below to the constant monitoring, you’d have the answers. The food, the iodine 131 etc has all been addressed to Nan G. The latest evacuation is also on there… again Unit 3, which is the one they are having the most problem with. As the IAEA notes, they pulled back for a while as a precaution, and the smoke is lessening.
If you’re going to chicken little over every event, you’re going to be a very busy guy until all is completely under control stabilizing the units. There’s going to be more evacuations, more smoke, more air and food monitoring as time goes on. I’ll start worrying when the IAEA, the nuclearfabricators and MIT start panicking. Until then, I see this as a two steps forward, one step back endeavor.
Don’t care about your fear mongering news media hypes. That’s why I’ve stopped listening to the media and turned to the agencies and industry specialists.. much as I did for the Deepwater Horizon. Couldn’t take the idiots and their speculation.
It is a calamity for Japan, but it is not the heinous Armaggedon you proclaim it to be. Again, the death toll and tragedy of Fukushima pales to the tsunami and earthquake. But you go panic if that makes you happy. Me, I’ll root for the continued progress for these guys.
Zac, no problem. But the NYTs March 17th reports unverified and unsustantiated claims of lethal radiation exposure. None of that is noted in any neutral agency reporting on event. Nor did they cite their sources for that information. But it’s sure good to make everyone get in an uproar, eh?
This story from the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, dated today, March 23, is worrisome. It concerns the levels of persistent radioactive substances detected in the topsoil 40 kilometers away from the reactor site. (Persistent, as in “lasting for 30 years”. That’s not entirely accurate, as 30 years is actually cesium-137’s half-life. Its radioactivity is diminished by one-half after 30 years.) The measured levels are 1,630 times higher than normal.
There is no doubt there will be areas that will not be productive farm land for some time close to the affected areas. If you want to know the various half lifes, that also is on the MIT links I keep providing for you guys..
Really… why don’t you guys use these resources? More fun to guess?
@MataHarley: It was haha! I don’t own stock in nuclear company’s or anything so I’m not to worried about weather or not I am wrong. I just want more study and less hype. Lots of people I know still think aspertame will give them bad brains. I read a story about a family that went to live in the mountains during Y2K and didn’t come out for 10 years. Hype…
Oh yes, Y2K. Well it was a disaster that wasn’t. Wonder if those people can sell their Y2K bunker in this real estate market… LOL
Y2K may have been a total bust, but 2012 will definitely be TEOTWAWKI. Killer asteroids, pole shifts, the Yellowstone super-volcano, bird flu, extra-terrestrial invasions, the return of various religious figures, and a presidential election, all in a single year. I don’t know how any of us will survive.
Got your Mayan calendar handy, Greg? I have to admit… watching the world around us, I sometimes wonder if there isn’t some validity to that “end of times as we know it” bit…. LOL
In which case, maybe we should all stop paying our mortgages. heh
@MAta
Just a reminder from a few days ago.
blast: “I assume” and you know this by what fact?
Well, who is the bozo now?
You’re still the bozo, blast. Especially for not reading the comments above about both the drinking water and foodstuff. Babies are more susceptible, but as they point out it’s not harmful amounts for adults. You’re really johnny-come-lately on this crap, aren’t you? And you’ll also notice by reading your reprinted comments that I said some of it would be somewhat affected. And somewhat affected it is…. with iodine 137, and a half life of 8 days.
Maybe if you’d also look at the links I provided Ivan above, you may be more current and more informed. But then, what a disappointment that would be… missing your hysteria.
OMG, blast…. you’re even more of a bozo than I thought. You mean you’re trying a gotcha because you think the Kanamachi purification plant isn’t getting water from the Kanto province?? LOL There’s seven prefectures in the Kanto region (which includes Tokyo). Maybe pictures works better with you.
Might I remind you that water runs downhills into rivers and reservoirs which feed these 11 purificiation plants that supply Tokyo’s water supply? Try this older WSJ article…
Surely you didn’t believe that the plant was sitting on top of a well, pumping water contaminated with iodine 137 from Fukushima, did you? It wasn’t born in that purification plant, but it was “borne” down the rivers from the NE.. just South of Fukishima
Radiation… For a time I was hoping to get bolted by gamma rays so I can turn into The Hulk. I was not sure where I would buy some gamma rays but knew I would figure it out one day. Then when I got older I found out that The Hulk was just a bodybuilder covered in green paint and that gamma rays probably could not do that. So now I am looking for another way to be a hero…
New Godzilla movies from Japan are going to be more realistic. Just kiddin.
The Japanese people are awesome. Donate to Catholic charity like I did.
MATA, very good POST; CRUDE INFO IS YOUR SPECIALTY HERE,
MY MY, you will be needed even more from now to 2012 ELECTION,
because the AMERICANS will need the most credible people to crush the
adverse lies on a so important event as 2012.
that person who change his focus on that science on energy,
has cause a lot of problems by inciting people to violence, against other
it took him 5 years, and tthat time was for him to spread his beleifs ,
that is very telling for other to beleive what a leader will feed to them, at least his change of opinion now will teach a good lesson to the ones who need to follow some TEACHERS OF NEGATIVES THEORY,
THAT PROMOTE HATE BY ANY MEANS THEY CAN, USING THE RACE CARD TO DIVIDE A WHOLE NATION, AS WE SEE NOW SOME ALMOST IRREPARABLE DAMMAGES DONE.
THANK YOU
‘where the water is now leathal [sic] for infants’
lol at the hyperbole. ‘Outside of official safe limits’ is not the same as ‘lethal’. I bet that even with the radioactive contaminants, that water is still far safer than the average drinking water in Africa, or Haiti. Further, I bet that the final death toll from this disaster (even including increased cancer deaths over the span of thirty years) will be less than the annual toll from Chinese coal power plants and their pollution. To provide the world with electrical power you need to choose among disadvantages. This disaster is dramatic, but so far it doesn’t suggest that nuclear power is a bad choice, fatalities (actual or projected) notwithstanding. To be fair, it hasn’t finished playing out yet; perhaps things will get far worse.
If they haven’t encased the reactors yet, it’s probably because it’s not so easy, logistically. They have a lot of disaster to deal with, you know – it’s not just reactors that are a problem there. Plus their flexibility in disaster response may not be so great; so far they seem long on stoicism and endurance and maybe a little short on adaptability and initiative. But I probably shouldn’t throw stones until I live through an 8.9 earthquake and tsunami.
Those interested in the hypothesis that low levels of radiation are beneficial might start by reading the Wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis . There is nothing particularly outlandish about the idea – it doesn’t violate well-established natural laws – but I have no opinion on it myself beyond that; you’d really need to read about a dozen papers to inform yourself (or adopt the opinion of someone you trust in these matters), and I haven’t the time.
Actually, I just heard on CNN this AM that the tap water levels have now dropped, and the tap water is safe for infants. Haven’t checked any of the monitoring sites yet, but… according to many here… if CNN says it, it just has to be true, yes? Great for Japan. Bummer for those looking forward to another day of wringing their hands. Speaking of that, minor correction in my graph above. The purification plant was located in Ibaraki Prefecture (#8) just north of the Chilba Prefecture I have marked. On the map I was using, it didn’t have the lines of division between the Prefectures, so it must be on the southern boundary of Ibaraki. That is the Prefecture just south of Fukushima.
And to get ahead of the next story, three workers are hospitalized for exposure after stepping in a pool of water while laying cables.
Seriously tough gig, these folks have…. I am wow’ed by their persistence and bravery.
I believe it has to do more with stability, bbartlog. It’s ironic that, just 11 days before the earthquake and tsunami, the UK’s Independent ran an article about the Chernobyl encasement becoming compromised.
This new shelter they are designing, but worrying about funding, is supposed to have a design life of 100 years. Any such encasement at Fukushima must again deal with Mother Nature elements that Ukraine doesn’t experience… i.e. earthquakes and tsunamis. One would think it would be preferable to have a stable/shut down reactor that you can monitor over an encased reactor that, after another earthquake, may be compromised and start the exposure problems all over again.
@MAta
Spin MAta Spin. I guess babies don’t really count huh?
MAta, you are a master propagandist, conflate, confuse and attack. First you say Tokyo would would be safe, now you say is is safe, but just for adults… too bad for those babies.
Thankfully the water quality has improved since our exchange began, and now babies are safe to consume water from the tap again.
Late to the party again, blast? Did you not hear that the levels have dropped again?
I never said “Tokyo” would be safe. In fact, I said that there are certain areas that would be affected somewhat, as you.. yourself.. reprinted above. Reading problems much, blast?
What I said is that the hyperbole is blown out of proportion… most especially for effect on the US, and even for current conditions in Japan. Their biggest problems are not radiation. They are fresh water, power, search/rescue or recovery and clean up. That falls by the wayside as the media just breathlessly waits for the next puff of smoke, or the next radiation level reading. All of these are going to fluctuate from day to day, so you chicken little types are going to be very busy.
As for your accusations of babies… what a dodohead you are. And an offensive one at that. My larger concern was not that babies couldn’t drink the tapwater, but if they had the resources necessary for bottled water as an alternative. But their lack of supplies on the shelves in Japan is a non story, because idiots like you like to wait for the next omen of Armaggedon.
BTW, the Japan Times has the water level readings by Prefecture on their site. Which means you need to look at the map above, and and a map of Japan’s rivers, blast. However the data is two days old. The “breaking” report I heard this AM about the levels returning to acceptable for infants makes it, what, 2-3 days for tap water? As I said… more important they keep the Prefectures most likely to be affected by water runoff (natural, rain, etc) in the rivers from the NE affected areas stocked with plenty of bottled water. But then with the earthquake damage, it’s not easy to move supplies into the area. Especially water, which is very heavy.
bbartlog, hi, I like also the last line of your comment, that we should only beleive whom we trust,
I think over so many stramgers’s opinions, that sounds logics but we can bring that stranger opinion back to the ones we trust so to have a good reality check,
BTW @Ivan, can I assume that you, like blast, may have come to the conclusion that the water sources for the Kanto region originates from the rivers further north, and closer to the affected area? Add rain, runoff, snow melt that all adds to the river from tributaries, and why wouldn’t you expect some effects on the river?
The question is, how high and how permanent is that effect? Thus far, requires caution and alternative measures for infants and monitoring… all of which they are doing… but hardly the panic and doom you all seen anxious to have.
Therefore, your radius calculation are a wonderful math exercise, but have no bearing on reality. But congratulations that you, from your US bunker somewhere, are trying to correct the monitoring agencies (Japanese and international) data about the radiation circle. Chutzpah, dude.
MATA so It’s good if the mother can breastfeed their babys,because if there is any levels of radiation it would deposed in her body alone , and the baby would drink only the milk that the mother’s body would have process and filtered, therefor protecting him also from even minimal radiation,
AM I RIGHT TO THINK THAT ?
@MAta:
Look at the last sentence of my post. LOL. Let me repeat it here for you… “Thankfully the water quality has improved since our exchange began, and now babies are safe to consume water from the tap again.”
Well MAta, I actually thought the same thing. I thought you were really cavalier about the babies. This emergency is far from over MAta, and I figured eventually your previous comments would be found to be either wrong factually or show how off they were. You are right when you say the press can be hyperbolic, but you are not the counter weight to the media by exaggerating (or downplaying) in the opposite direction. And again with the propaganda… “because idiots like you like to wait for the next omen of Armaggedon” LOL.
Mata, your http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80847.html in post #37 says the men hospitalized were not wearing their protective boots, only their shoes…..
A different source has different ”facts.”
Writers Tsuyoshi Inajima and Pavel Alpeyev are both in Tokyo.
Others assisting include:
Sachiko Sakamaki, Jason Clenfield and Takashi Hirokawa in Tokyo, Monami Yui in Hong Kong, Naoko Fujimura in Osaka, Simeon Bennett and Tomoko Yamazaki in Singapore, Jonathan Tirone in Vienna, Yoga Rusmana in Jakarta, Aki Ito in San Francisco and Alex Devine in London.
15 centimeters is 5.9 inches.
30 centimeters is 11.8 inches.
That’s a large difference.
Boots?
Street shoes?
You kidding me?
That’s almost incredible to buy.
The complacence involved is suicidal.
How could a supervisor even allow his men to go in wearing only their street shoes?
Maybe the deaths of all these workers is expected?
Maybe its a foregone conclusion?
I’m astonished by that.
And I’m glad there are other reports that say they were wearing their boots.
@ MAta,
If it can enter the water supply chain the details are academic at that point MAta. Not sure why you keep running to this narrative, but we now know that the water has reached unhealthy levels of hazardous materials (and subsided) in Tokyo (as well as other areas). I would expect… as you question… that along with milk, and other organics that radiation will be in many areas outside of the plant. That seems kinda obvious at this point.
blast, you’r not doing yourself a favor by calling other IDIOTS,
that means that you feel that only you have the right opinion,
and it bugs you to be challenge by others,
sorry but if you give an opinion here in CONSRVATIVES LAND, YOU ARE BEING CHALLENGE,
I KNOW YOU ARE USE TO YOUR PARTY THINK ALIKE, BUT IT DOESN’T WORK HERE WITH
OPEN MINDED SMART CONSERVATIVES,THAT ALLOWED THEIR OPINIONS TO BE CHALLENGED AND ANSWERD BACK WHILE KEEPING THEIR TOLERANCE IN THE DEBATE,
YOU FROM THE LEFT ARE TO RADICALS FOR UNDERSTANDING THAT KNOWLEDGE OF DEBATING:
A GOOD IDEA!!! THAT IS WHAT I CALL CREATIVE MINDS
@ilovebeeswarzone, I’ve called blast both a bozo and an idiot, so no sweat. There’s very little blast can say that bothers me, since I generally consider the source. If it’s not one I respect, why would I care?
You again inflate the situation, blast. The “unhealthy levels” were for 2-3 days for infants only, not the entire population. Were they extraordinary, the water would be unsafe for anyone… not just the most susceptible with developing systems. Where I would worry is if they were not monitoring, didn’t detect the differences in levels, and did not send out alerts. I repeat again, having some of this enter the water sources is going to happen. And there will also be segments of farm land that will be unuseable for awhile. None of this, however, is going to have a lasting or deadly effect on Japan because it is confined.
It’s these types of statements that keep reminding me of your chicken little mentality, and lack of education. The areas that will be affected for milk and foodstuff will be confined to places where dairy cows graze on pastures affected, and likewise for produce. Those are relatively predictable, as well as how long that area would be questionable for farm production. Again, we are not talking about a huge area space of Japan that would impact their nation’s source of foodstuff beyond accommodation. Too bad for you and your talking points, eh?
That’s not my problem, but yours, blast. When I point out that the situation is quite manageable, and unsurprising, you and your lib/prog Alinksy tactics then label me a baby hater. I find you personally offensive, and hyperbolic in all things on this issue…. allowing your emotions to govern your single working braincell.
Nor have any of my statements been factually wrong. You, and Ivan, however may want to take a second glance at your own “bigger than life” analyses.
I am not “downplaying” the situation, I am merely pointing out the context and perspective. Nor have I said this crises is “over”, as you suggest. What I have continually pointed out is that the Japanese are rising to their challenges in magnificent fashion. Nor have the events been unpredictable, unmanageable, and far from the disaster the screaming headlines suggest.
What I do wish is that there were more attention paid to their supplies, their recovery efforts and clean up in these regions. That, however, doesn’t appear to float the boat of people like you because it isn’t sensational enough, nor laced with the fear and foreboding you desire.
@Nan G, the conflicting reports is one of the reasons I don’t race to headlines and conclusions. I would think logic dictates that they’d be wearing maximum protection for such a delicate and risky task. But we don’t have the details from anyone we can trust.
What I hope is that their exposure and any potential burns are the minimum possible. I guess we can only wait to hear from what the hospital says at some point. So my thoughts and prayers go out to them, and their families. Laying those power lines and cables… I believe the latest I read was that it was getting hooked up to the troublespot in Unit 3… is integral to continued management of the plant.
Mata said:
I don’t believe half of what the “official” sources say. Much of the initial Japanese Government statements were based on TEPCO reports-reports which downplayed the seriousness of the situation, if you recall.
It’s not about chutzpah, it’s about being gullible. Hey, I support nuclear power, always have, always will, but I don’t buy everything the media tells me (wink).
From Kyodo:
The fact is they still, after two weeks, can’t get this situation under control. Scarry stuff.
Link to Kyodo story:
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80810.html
Considering how extremely conflicting with reality and erroneous media reports have been, you prefer to diss the IAEA and MIT sites, as well as the TEPCO technical updates, and pick Kyodo?? Bizarre choice of information and reasoning, but hey… if it suits your catastropic nature, have at it.
Why don’t you read up on all that “dangerous” levels in sea water to get a grip. But I do agree that any seafood from nearby surrounding areas should be monitored
The fact is, after two weeks, they are making steady gains in stabilizing the units. But don’t give ’em any credit, Ivan. You don’t want to encourage them, or give them any kudos, do you? It may go to their heads….
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
LOL… good going beez. I guess you missed the quotation marks around the line that included idiots… that was actually a direct quote from MAta doing the name calling. Maybe you should question her on name calling? Or are you just operating on a double standard?
As to conservativeland… get real. I don’t think mata or you can say you speak for all conservatives. I have offered my opinion and have had my opinions questioned. I have questioned the opinions and statements of others. If they agree or disagree… fine. But honestly, this exchange here has been clear from my perspective. I did not run on about the water supply previously… mata did, I am just pointing out the incongruity of her argument. I have stated that I am in favor of nuclear energy use… and then get criticized for saying it should be safe. lol.
blast, the only thing incongruous is your reading ability. Or should I say your attempt to incorrectly read between the lines.
@MAta:
I guess you did not read that I did not call you an idiot too… I was actually quoting your comment to me. Although I have been sharp at times with you MAta, I have tried to be somewhat civil and not use comments like bozo or idiot to describe you. So if you want to get out of the gutter and be more civil, I would welcome that.
Are you serious MAta? it was not bad except…. for those “unhealthy levels” for infants… talk about denial. I have said the media has hyped much, but you are hyping the other direction entirely.
blast, your comment on another post against CONSERVATIVES, GOT YOU MY ATTENTION,
so I’m not happy with anyone insulting my friends which are more tolerants than your friends on the side you gave your allegance to, so you could have expected some retribution on another level or another POST, THIS WAS ONE OF IT,
blast, let me say, that MATA IS WORKING VERY HARD TO RESPOND TO OUR ALL QUERYS,
beside having to work on thoses MULTIPLE POSTS ON THE SUBJECT, you and YVANS have been pushing her patience a bit too much, and you meant it too, unless you are both idiots,
so lay of your offensives remarks of her back, there is just enough of it now,
wtf, she’s doing a damm good job, and if your not happy go offend the media or other libs blogs on your own party, and see them eat you alive.
@Bees, you do make me smile. Your friendship and loyalty is quite appreciated. Not to mention you’d make a heck of a first defense lineman… LOL But I assure you, I know when I’m guilty of “not being civil”, as blast likes to put it. As I pointed out in my first or second response to him, he’s pushed my patience for cogent logic with his emotional hyperbole. Ivan? He’s just into living off of sensationalist media instead of 3rd party monitoring. What can you do? Some people crave horror movies. Others like Disney. And the rest of us might like Discovery Channel.
And yes… at this moment when I’m furiously multitasking, and also trying to prepare Phase 3 of the “Financial Terrorism report” serious, having to go back the temper the hyperbole and hysteria of both Ivan and blast is annoyingly time consuming. Especially since I’ve repeated provided far more qualified links to monitoring organizations than their underinformed media sources. Lazy comes to mind. But then, when you seek a disaster and doom’n’gloom, you can’t stop those that seek it from digging up the ancient bone, buried in the back yard.
You babble. You repeat yourself on your misconceived notions due to reading comprehensions and too much hormonal level. And you exaggerate.
“unhealthy”. Let’s see… eggs are “unhealthy”. Oh wait, that was last week. Milk is “unhealthy”. Oh, that was a month ago.
What is my point? What is the degree of “unhealthy” being discussed in in the context of reality? If an infant, unknowingly (which the gov’t gave alerts and didn’t hide it) ingested twice the normal levels for 2-3 days, does that mean the child has had “lethal” (as Ivan put it) amounts ingested that will kill them, or result in future offspring with three heads?
If you read the medical and biochemical experts on radiation, and not Kyoto Times, you’ll find that answer is an emphatic NO. Is it unhealthy to break in the air in Los Angeles or Dallas? Well, yes. Is it unhealthy to ingest too much iodine with our seafood these days? Of course.
Again, it all comes down to the thresholds, the amount ingested and the duration of the time for ingesting.
You see a headline, and your hormones flow. Sky is falling. Children are now damaged for life. When something tries to rein it into reality for you with statistics, predictability, and limited exposure, they are baby haters or hyping the other direction.
You are way too high maintenance for me to spend this much time on. Frankly, I don’t respond to influence you in any way, but for other that perhaps read this thread. As far as I’m concerned, you’re a lost cause. Ivan feeds on doom’n’gloom and the end of the world. You feed on your emotions and hormones. Both of you are the least qualified to look at any news or technical analysis and come out with an opinion that isn’t worthy of anything more than a fast “delete”. But then, I’m not into censorship. When someone is as obvious as you two in ignoring the degree of impact, you deserve to be mocked for your extremes.
@MAta,
MAta, you just want to see what you believe, not believe what you see, even a heavy dose of skepticism is good. But you are all out dismissing real issues and trying to redefine the argument around statistics and predictability…. well MAta, I know you are not a baby hater, but dismissing the fact that a major population center was advised not to let infants consume tap water seems to me, well, unprecedented. Now that does not increase or decrease the issue. It just is part of this unfolding story.
I’m sorry… what was that you said about “seeing what you believe and not believing what you see”? Pot… kettle… You are, and remain, offensive on all of these issues.
I see. Putting the levels, the temporary status of those levels, the narrow scope of those levels within the context of impact using radiation/medical stats and experts, and noting that the nation is advising and dealing with it, is now”dismissing” it in your less than objective opinion?
You are, and remain, offensive on all of these issues.
Unprecedented? I see. So when cities are given boil alerts for water contamination in various US cities due to events, that doesn’t count? Does it only have to be “radiation” for useable water sources to fit your emotional narrative?
You are, and remain, offensive on all of these issues. And I simply don’t have time to feed your homones and hysteria any more today.
blast, since you seem to have an abundance of time on your hands to wring them in despair and panic, why don’t you address the unaddressed and lack of panic in Houston for that radiation in their tap water that’s being ignored?
Is it “unhealthy”? Should this be a problem that’s addressed? Was it due to a nuke plant, suffering from earthquake/tsunami damage? Is this not closer to your own backyard, and more in need of your hyperbolic attentions?
@MAta and the other readers…
I love eggs, I drink milk… hardly an equivalency to drinking water contaminated with radioactive materials. You just keep proving my case with your ridiculous false equivalencies.
Yo, bubba… I wasn’t the one who selected the word “unhealthy”. That was you. It begged the comparison of when eggs once again got vindicated from the nanny food experts, who deemed them “unhealthy”. Milk, on the other hand, still remains under debate as to it’s health status.
But thanks again for reminding us that your concern and criteria for both “unprecedented” and “unhealthy” is only confined to radiation to suit your particular emotional narrative.
MATA, I’v been here quite a good time enough to appreciate your so detailed POSTS, all of them required a lot of time and research that you did patiently to give out quality and knowledge, and on top of it you come down personal on each query to explain your point of view of why you’r doing it,
and to see those come in and try to pinpoint a negative to catch you, realy get me to question what is it they are aiming for, and I found it obvious when I read their other comment from other POST,
again trying to demise the other, so they had it coming, all of it, TO tell you the truth,
I was looking for it and the time came for me to say my part. and I did and will do it again
on anyone insulting my friends, this is the story of my life
Yes, they do it to vindicate themselves, and their porely constructed, and thin defenses of idiotic positions, Bees. Facts have a habit of getting in the way of lofty emotions.
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE, which other post. The one with Old Trooper and his saying about a month ago that Gaddafi was going to loose power in 12 hours, or was it Mr Irons and that Japan was going to use more oil for generation while GE is shipping in 10 Gas (LNG) powered turbines? Not sure which issue you speak of?
blast, you already know them so you have the anwer,
OMG… Bans on Chinese milk! Alert the alarmists!
Oh wait… doesn’t count for blast. The contamination is not because of radiation that’s harmful only to infants for their vulnerability. Never mind….
Wait! LA’s banning fast food stand alone restaurants because of “health concerns”! Alert the alarmists!
Oh wait…. it’s not because of radiation. So this doesn’t count for blast.
sigh….
Ever consider adding some hormonal balancing drugs, guy?
@MAta (the MA is my reference to your soul mate Mikes America, since you use the same tactics)
Umm… lets see… when was the last time you heard New York City being asked to boil water? Tokyo is much larger, but for context lets just use NYC. Oh, and this was not really a simple boil water order was it? No, it wasn’t.
Lets see, comparing radioactive contaminated water to eggs and milk in terms of healthy value, and now a “boil water” order vs. a radioactive contamination of a water supply where it was considered dangerous for infants to consume tap water. Ok…. Now I really understand, awe shucks MAta, thanks for the education now you make total sense.
Woke up to news that a crack in a reactor might lead to an expansion of the evacuation zone to 19 miles around the Fukushima nuclear plant.
But them the Japanese government’s chief spokesman, Yukio Edano, said 130,000 residents in the area had been encouraged to leave to improve their quality of life, not because their health was at risk.
Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for Japan’s nuclear safety agency, said it was unlikely that the reactor had cracked.
OK, then.
But Hatori Norio, who serves on the Nihonmatsu’s disaster committee, is also preparing for the possibility that the evacuees will stay for the duration. He said the town had begun putting evacuees on the waiting list for public housing, recognizing that it may be years before they return to their homes.
Mixed signals.
About the three workers were exposed to unusually high levels of radiation after stepping in contaminated water in the turbine building of the crippled No. 3 reactor, which they were trying to cool.
Two received possible beta ray burns to their legs. All three have been transferred to a special radiation treatment facility. Kyodo news reported that the two more seriously injured workers could have suffered internal radiation exposure.
“The contaminated water had 10,000 times the amount of radiation as would be found in water circulating from a normally operating reactor,” said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for Japan’s nuclear safety agency.
The prime minister, Naoto Kan told a televised news conference. “We are doing our best to prevent a deterioration in the situation, but we are not yet in a position that allows us to be optimistic.”
More here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/japan-disaster-fukushima-plant-nuclear
Well, where’s PollyAnna when you need her?
Is that Pollyanna remark supposed to be addressed to me, Nan G?
To use the now infamous phrase, “let me be clear”… to date, the media has hyped the situation beyond credibility. That does not mean I would not recognize a new development that is genuinely more serious. So should I have been panicking yesterday about an event that has not yet happened? Not sure what you’re demanding so that I meet your required level of concern.
I heard there “might” be a rupture in the containment vessel on CNN’s morning reports. I take that to mean there may, or may not, be a containment structure compromised in Unit 3. I also take that to mean they still don’t know.
That, of course, set them off, discussing all the events of high radiation leakage about a rupture that may, or may not exist. What became more ironic is that they moved to their next story about the surge in bunker buying in the US, “despite government statements that the US wasn’t in danger”. I had to laugh…. they were mocking the bunker buyers, all the while pretending they had no part in advancing the fear that drove the spike in both geiger counters and bunkers in this nation in the first place.
But back to Japan and those on the real frontlines. A rupture would be serious. How they would handle that – stablizing, encasing, etc – would be something to watch. It’s also prudent that they do indeed give the locals who would be affected the heads up for evacuation…. which they’ve done. I certainly hope for Japan’s sake that this particular unit gets under control as soon as possible. But it’s going to be no easy task. Yet their perserverance still wow’s me…. both citizens and workers.
In the meantime, I’m still not in the market for a bunker or geiger counter here on the west coast. You looking around?
Just checked in with the IAEA site for their latest on monitoring/measures. Been a bit busy with work and haven’t had the luxury to sit on the computer and surf news instead.
According to their update as of 1:21pm Pacific time,
From what I understood from the brief news bits this AM, they suspected there was a rupture because of the water levels dispersing from Unit 3’s reactor. Whether that could be rapid evaporation, or a leak thru a rupture, I don’t know. I’ll wait until someone has the results, and skip the speculation inbetween.
Wait a minute, Nan G… did you “snip” the Guardian article and not make note? Or did they change the article from your viewing?
Following your sentence about the contaminated water is this statement, which seems to contradict the media’s report of a rupture.
Why did you skip that, and ensuing, paragraphs? And the reference to the contaminated water is the water the injured workers were exposed to a day or so ago. That’s not a new development. What would be a new development is a discovery of where in the reactor is the damage. Rupture? Plumbing leak or vents? I don’t believe they have Unit 3’s instrumentation powered up yet, which makes their diagnoses more difficult.
@MataHarley:
]
Core breach in #3 reactor. Is that serious enough for you? “Stay inside from 12mi to 20mi”. Is that serious enough for you? Neutron beam 1.5 Km long. Nothing to see here, move along.
Now I’ve never said take to the bomb shelters, despite your attempts to make me sound that way, but you are very close to being polly-anna about this situation.
Ivan, life is not all about you. The reference to the bunkers… tho you may indeed qualify in many ways… was the media’s hype in the past week driving up the fear in US citizens INRE radioactive clouds, etc. Do you discount the statistics for geiger counter sales and bunkers? Talk about Pollyanna’ish. You cannot ignore the effect the media has had on US citizens. Mercy, even the Japanese.. with this in their backyards… aren’t this insane.
Maybe you should read my comments more clearly and stop imposing your own bizarre translations. To date, the events have been overhyped. As I said, that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t recognize a more serious event when it happened. But I’m not going to go ballastic chicken little with speculation in advance. I’m not going to predict explosions, Armaggedon, vast wastelands and three headed babies when there’s no event that warrants that. I take things in as they happen.
Now, if you’ll notice, the Guardian article quotes the Japanese nuke agency spokesman as saying a breech is “unlikely”. Additionally, as of 1:21pm today, west coast time, radiation levels were not rising. So I’d say we don’t know what’s going on yet.
But you go ahead and get your panic ready in advance, if that makes you happy. I’ll wait for the facts, thank you. It’s just another day in a very difficult situation for Japan, made all the more confusing with reporting of “maybe” type news.
@MataHarley:
Ms. “Expert on the Tokyo water-mains”, do you understsand the Japanese culture? When they say,”It would be very difficult to do this”, them mean they can’t do it. When they say,”we suspect the core has been breached”, they mean,”Guess what guys, what we feared had happened has happend, but we’re not going to come out and say it because we’d lose face.”
I know Mata that you like to find ANYTHING to glumb onto that would allow you to say,”See! It’s not that bad!”, but a core breach in #3 is almost Chernobyl “bad.”
My question to you is, Mata, why shill for the scum of TEPCO? You have stock in that company or something because I can’t, for the life of me,understand why you continually make excuses for their criminal conduct.
Allow me to repeat, what “core breach” are you discussing, Ivan? The one the media says “may” be there, but they say is “unlikely”?
I’m not “shilling” for anyone merely because I’m not wringing my hands in panic and fear over all this. Nor do I see any “criminal” conduct. What I see is employees, busting their ass and risking their lives, trying to bring a situation under control that began without instrumentation, power and supplies. What I also see is you, sitting in your armchair playing critic about stuff that hasn’t yet happened.
And after years of working with Japanese execs and a Japanese company, I’m no expert on their culture, but very familiar with their nuanced and calm reactions when faced with adversity. Something you ought to attempt to learn.
Oh please. If the core hasn’t been breached, why the exetnsion of the evacuation zone? Dear Lord, they teach you critical thinking in high school?
And there you go again, Mata, trying to down-play the gravity of the situation. It’s getting worse, not better as one would believe reading the laughable IAEA statement.
Let’s read a little further in Nan G’s article, shall we?
Isn’t anyone patient enough to wait and see what the problem is? Is it new? Is it just something they’ve learned more about? What’s the cure and is it manageable?
Or is it just too much fun to be the first to pronounce the end of the world?
MSNBC just adds to the confusion. Headlines says “Dangerous Breach Feared at Japan Nuke Site”. Then, in the article they note that recent days level measurements have not spiked, and the temperature and pressure in the core remain stable.
From the TEPCO tech updates, they said they had started injecting fresh water into Unit 3 yesterday.
I suggest that no one has a clue yet. I, for one, am content to wait for facts… thank you. But again I will say it’s prudent they advise locals of evacuation options.
Mercy… you really need to expand your media coverage before you leap into assumptions. When I went to school, they didn’t teach me to believe the first things I saw, but to read, read, read until I had a full spectrum overview.
First off all, you confidently assert there is a “core breach” when we have no clue there is. And, in fact, with stable pressure and temperatures, and no notable spike in levels, they consider that unlikely and suspect something else. You speak too soon.
Now the extension of the evacuation zone is all about this “core breach” too? Take, for example, Business Insider’s blazing headline: FUKUSHIMA: Highly Radioactive Water Is Leaking From Three Reactors; Japan Urges Locals To Flee
The linked story about “fleeing” is Kyodo News titled “Gov’t asks people within 20-30 km of nuke plant to leave voluntarily”.
So the urge to “flee” is, according to the Japanese media Kyodo, NOT related to radiation levels but to the difficulty of getting supplies to the area.
So what do we know as opposed to speculate? That pressure and temperature in the core appear to be stable, and that so far there has not been a spike in radiation levels. Nor is the government planning to expand the evacuation zone for levels at this time. Yes, they may in the future depending on unfolding events… Some of us deal with those events as they come. And that the reason for “fleeing” the area… rather hyperbolic on it’s own… is because of the difficult of getting supplies into these areas.
There ya go again, Ivan… leaping to conclusions. Maybe you’ll get lucky and they’ll identify the problems you so wish to happen tomorrow tho. Me? I hope not. Hope their assessment is right on, that they find out the water presence is from the dumping of the water on the reactors from above, or that there’s a leak in the plumbing or venting. And that the levels, termperature and pressure continue to remain stable. That they get all the cooling pumps working again now that all six reactors have power available to them. And that they ultimately get these under control with the minimum of exposure to humans, and effects on the land.