Andrew Glass was a quiet man. He had a couple of friends, but they all lived blocks away, and his best friend lived on the other side of town. His neighbors though, didn’t like him at all.
Andy lived in a house that used to belong to his great grandparents, but the Basher family had been staying there for a long time before he moved back into it. Now the Bashers were angry. They hadn’t wanted to leave the house, and in the end, Andy had to call the police and force them out.
Because of the animosity, Andy had all kinds of arguments with the Bashers. The Bashers, who owned the houses on either side of Andy’s, would stand in their yards yelling, “We want our house back,” as they threw rocks at him over the fence.
“It’s not your house,” Andy would say to them, ducking to avoid the rocks, “It’s mine. You were just staying here while my family was gone.”
Andy often had to sleep under his bed because of the constant barrage of rocks that broke the windows in his house, and clattered to the floor all over his room. One time, the Bashers got so violent that the police even kicked them out of their houses next door, and some of Andy’s family members moved into them to keep the Bashers from moving back.
This angered the Bashers even more, and the constant barrage of rocks got worse. Every day, members of Andy’s family got hit by the rocks. Whenever Andy went to work, or shopping, or to the park, he had to be very careful because the Bashers would hide around corners and behind cars, just waiting to jump out and attack him.
Andy wasn’t an easy target though. Even though he was quiet by nature, he was very strong. In a face to face fight with any of the Bashers, Andy would probably win. The Bashers knew it, so they usually attacked from afar, hurling their rocks, and running away. Sometimes Andy would call the town council and report them, but nothing ever happened. The attacks kept coming, one after the other.
The Bashers also called the town council, but they told them that Andy was a bully. They accused him of being the one that attacked them, and accused him of stealing their house, and the houses next door, even though Andy’s family had owned their home for generations, and his family members were only staying in the houses next door so they could protect themselves from the constant attacks. The town council felt sorry for now homeless Bashers, and talked Andy into letting the Bashers move back into one of the next door houses. Andy cautiously agreed, hoping that by giving them back the house, his family would get a little peace.
The peace didn’t last for long though, and soon the Bashers started using the house next door to launch their attacks anew. Andy called the town council and said, “I told you that I shouldn’t have given them the house back, now they’re throwing rocks at us from right next door again.”
Some members of the town council, who were also friends with the Bashers, were less than supportive. “Maybe you should give them the other house back,” one of them suggested. “If you do, I promise they will quit throwing rocks at you.”
“Fine,” Andy said. “I’ll give them back the other house, but if they keep throwing rocks at me, I’m going to get angry.” He gave the other house back to the Bashers, hoping that the town council was right and that the Bashers would be happy enough to leave him alone, but, once again, the Bashers wanted more. Soon, the rocks were flying. Again.
“We want our house back,” they screamed at Andy from next door. “We won’t rest until every last Glass has been run out of town!”
One of the town councilors advised, “You know, they lived in your house for a long time. If you gave them the West wing of the house, I promise that they would be so happy that they would never want to fight with you again.”
“I don’t think so,” Andy replied. “They will just bring a whole bunch of rocks into the house and throw them at me.”
“Oh, just give it a shot,” cooed the councilors, “what could it hurt?”
“Fine,” Andy said once again. “They can have the West wing of the house, but they better stop throwing rocks.”
Soon, the Bashers had moved into the West wing of the house and for a while, they were quiet. Then a few of them started yelling at Andy down the hall, “Get out of our house Andy. We live here!” Not long after, the rocks started flying again. A few of the Bashers even snuck into Andy’s part of the house and threw rocks at his kids.
Andy barricaded the hallway that lead to the West wing, and then called a the town council and asked, “What should I do now? I gave them back the house next door, and it wasn’t enough. I gave them back the other house, and it wasn’t enough. Now I’ve given them a whole wing of my house and they are throwing rocks at me again. What should I do?”
“Just be patient, Andy,” said the councilors. “They aren’t very good at throwing rocks anyway. Just ignore them and they’ll quit throwing rocks…eventually. We promise.”
“Alright,” Andy answered, “but I can’t put up with this for long.”
For days, rocks flew over the barricade from the West wing, and clattered through the house. For days Andy and his family ignored them. One time a rock that had been thrown by a Basher man fell short of the barricade and hit a Basher child. “Damn you, Andy! That was your fault,” the Basher man yelled. “You’ll pay for that!” Even more rocks followed, and Andy feared the worst.
Then, late one night, it happened. One of the rocks that was thrown over the barricade hit Andy’s dad in the head and knocked him out. It pushed Andy over the edge. “Enough,” he yelled! He gathered up all the rocks he could find, tore through the barricade and started throwing them at every armed Basher he could find. He went room to room, and every time he found armed Bashers, he pelted them with rocks, beaning each one in the head and laying them flat.
Andy yelled for his family to join him as he marched through the West wing of the house, bashing one Basher after another with rocks, and chasing them out into the yard. “No more,” he yelled! “If you want to throw rocks at me, fine! I’ll throw them back!”
“Wait! Wait!” The town councilors, who had rushed over to Andy’s house, were frantic. “You can’t do that! You can’t go into their part of the house! You can’t throw rocks at the Bashers! They didn’t mean anyone any harm! You’re being a bully! You’re trespassing! We demand that you stop this right now!”
Andy paused for a moment, considering. “You know,” Andy said, “you told me to give them back one house, and I did. You told me to give them back the other house and I did. You told me to give them part of my house, and I did. I’ve done everything you’ve asked trying to appease them. Despite all of your promises, the Bashers never stopped throwing rocks. If you want the Bashers to live in your house, you’re welcome to them, but I’ve had enough. One of us is leaving the neighborhood tonight, and I don’t think it’s going to be me.”
Andy turned his back on the town council, picked up some more rocks, and marched out into the yard, scattering Bashers as he went. If the town council wasn’t going to help him, he was damn sure going to help himself.
Nice analogy. But in actual life, the town councilors forced Andi to supply food and medicines for the Bashers, freeing the Bashers to concentrate on killing Andi’s family.
That’s the problem with analogies. There are only so many details you can squeeze in. Andy also had to pay the Bashers wages and legal fees too, but there is only so much room on the internet to report on such trivial things 🙂
The town council does not want to admit that they would rather allow the Bashers to take care of Andy, they also want him gone.
I just watched a BBC report from Gaza with the usual lineup of young children injured by Israeli attacks brought to the Emergency Room in terror. Great footage for the Palestinian propaganda mill.
Of course the thousands of Palestinian rockets fired into Israel and we get reports showing the outside of buildings like a school or hospital, but we rarely see anyone injured.
Often not mentioned in these stories is how the Palestinians hide their rocket launchers in among the civilian population at the same time they target innocent Israeli children.
We’ve seen this game play out over and over and over again. The Pallys don’t really care if their children are killed. They have been raised in a cult of death which exults the martyr. And yet, the world reacts as if we should treat the suffering of Palestinian children who were put in that position above that of the Israeli children who have been the targets of Hamas rockets, bombs and gunfire for years.
Every time the Israelis have given an inch the Palestinians have used to advance their murderous agenda. There can be no peace with people who do not value the lives of their children.
How can it be possible that USA and Canada let people like these immigrate in our countries?
Pro-Hamas Demonstration – Fort Lauderdale FL
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo
“How can it be possible that USA and Canada let people like these immigrate in our countries?” — Craig
I’ve read recently that someone claimed it was Teddy Chappaquidik Kennedy who got the immigration laws passed that allowed that, though they gave no references so I don’t know for sure.
Also, about the “mind set” (assuming the term “mind” is appropriate to them) Of the Islamist world, it is pure evil…
http://adeeperlookweblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/world-has-never-experienced-such-plague.html
And you better copy this before YouTube erases it…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdZKfgZZrs
There is too little of this…
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/01/fox-newscaster-rips-palestinian-legal.html
…making it all the sweeter when you see it.
I wish DrSanity were still around, though her previous material on this is still quite relevant…
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2007/04/youve-got-to-be-carefully-taught.html
“WE WISH FOR DEATH” they shriek, and when it comes to them they whine “SEE HOW THEY KILL US.” The world should say, “Most people are happy when they get what they wish, but all you people do is bitch and complain. SHUT UP, ALREADY, you ungrateful wretches!”
You had me going for the first few paras. Nice analogy. Go Glasses!
Once upon a time there was a house which the Hunters lived in for many years.
Then one day the Biffers came and made claims to the front porch – where they squatted and threatened the Hunters with rocks. The Hunters we forced back into their house. Then more Biffers came and they made claim to the living room and forced the Hunters further back with rocks. The Hunters even started to catch illnesses from the Biffers. The Biffer stirred up trouble between the Hunter family. Eventually the Biffers promised they wouldn’t go any further. But unfortunately the Biffers kept on pushing the Hunters back further and further into their house until eventually the were evicted out of their own house and what remained of the Hunter family was a small patch of the garden which they called reservations.
Hypocritically some of the Biffers started looking around the rest of the street and claimed that original homeowners should be given their homes back – except the house that they were squatting in.
OF LIARS, THIEVES AND MURDERERS
Analogies can be useful, when they are based on reality, but there comes a time when the reality itself must be dealt with.
The so-called “Palestinians” are NOT!
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm
BE CAREFUL
When someone quotes a “news” article in support of the Arabs against Israel, realize that there is a monumental pattern of misreporting that’s been going on for a long time…
http://tampabayprimer.org/index.cfm?action=leftNav&drill=antiIsrael
And when they tell you Israel is Arab land, you need to know that is also a fiction.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F9FC5FA9-FF95-49BC-86A2-C9EBD546AD3D
Get some facts.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
Or you will be an Arab’s stooge.
___________________________________________________________________________
Anyone who doesn’t know that there is no country on earth that has a clearer title to their homeland than Israel does is a complete ignoramus. (or a liar)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/The_Jewish_Claim_To_The_Land_Of_Israel.html
The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.
Now you know the truth. From now on any repetition of that falsehood will make you a liar.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Gaza: An occupied territory or Land of Israel?
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/dec04/ettinger2.php
__*Fact: In October 1946, Kfar Darom (a current settlement in the Gaza Strip) and ten other Jewish communities were established, in order to avert the British plan of disengaging the Negev from the Jewish State.
__*Fact: Kfar Darom was established on the site of the 3rd-4th century Talmudic Jewish town of Kfar Darom. The Jewish farmer, Tuvia Miller, planted an orchard in Kfar Darom, which was destroyed during the 1936-39 anti-Jewish pogroms. The newly established 1946 Kfar Darom was uprooted following the 1948 Egyptian military invasion. Would the 1967 rebuilt Kfar Darom be uprooted by the Jewish State?
__*Fact: Gaza and Tiberias substituted Jerusalem during 135-600 AD- as a pilgrimage site – following Jerusalem’s decimation by Rome.
__*Fact: Gaza’s Jewish community was uprooted during the 1929 anti-Jewish riots, which annihilated the Jewish community of Hebron.
__*Fact: The Castil family headed a large of Jewish refugees from Spain (1492), who bolstered the Gaza Jewish community. The traveler Ovadia of Bartenura documented the 1488 Gaza Jewish community.
__*Fact: The Ottoman Empire facilitated settlement of Jews in Gaza.
__*Fact: The 17th century Gaza Chief Rabbi, Israel Najarah, composed the hymn “Ya Ribon Olam” and was buried in Gaza.
__*Fact: The eerie Shabtai Zvi declared himself a Messiah at the Gaza synagogue.
__*Fact: The Gaza synagogue was located on the hilltop, which is currently named by Arabs, Khart Al-Yahood (the Jewish neighborhood). The synagogue was destroyed, in 1831, by Egypt’s Ibrahim Pasha.
__*Fact: The known travelers Georgio Gucci (1384) and Meshulam of Voltera (1481) praised Gaza’s Jewish community for its wine production and wealth.
__*Fact: The “Old Testament” refers to Gaza as an integral part of the Land of Israel: Abraham was punished for his disengagement from Grar (today’s Dir Al-Balakh, Genesis 21); The tribe of Judah inherited Ashdod, Ashqelon and Gaza (Joshua 15:47, Judges 1:1; King Solomon and King Hezekiah controlled Gaza (Kings A 5:4 and 18:7). Jonathan the Maccabee liberated Gaza in 145 BC, Simon the Maccabee settled Gaza and King Alexander Yanai-Janeus renewed Jewish presence there in 96 BC.
__*Fact: Rome’s Constantinus The Great failed to convert and uproot Gaza’s Jewish community (4th century).
__*Fact: Rarely have nations agreed to trade away land for peace. Never have nations agreed to disengage themselves from their Cradle of History in return for peace. Can a nation disengage itself from its roots without dooming its future?
The Paleostinianz are historically very recent additions who have come from various Arab/Muslim lands, and are now pretending to be the original inhabitants when they are nothing more than thieves.
Good post Yonason!
I just watched the news. Good grief, did you see all the protestation thru out the World against Israel? Is the whole world going left and has it become anti-Semite and pro-terrorists? It is sad and very scary to see all these ill informed people in action.
@GaffaUK
The Glass’s and the Biffers have one real big thing in common. They’re both pretty damn good at throwing rocks.
@yonason
Great comment. Too bad guys like GaffaUK won’t follow up on, believe, admit to, or even understand the facts you referenced. Way too inconvenient.
So A Gaff, the “palistinians” voluntarily left so their buddies could obliterate the Jews, but should be given back the land they abandoned for that purpose? Too f—–g bad. They got what they deserved.
Here’s a little idea, how about someone else take them in? Oh, that’s because they are only being used as cannon fodder by their so-called Arab brothers who really don’t give a sh*t about them. So you can take your twisted lies and choke on them.
Here are a few excerpts of Yonason link: The so-called “Palestinians” are NOT!
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm
“… Whenever the Temple Mount or Jerusalem are mentioned, it is usually remarked that is “the third holy place for muslims”, but why it is never said that is the FIRST Holy Place for Jews?”
“… Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind. There is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage.”
“… There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”. – Joseph Farah, “Myths of the Middle East”
lol – I barely refered to Israel or Palestine in my analogy now did I?
I hope the Israeli find, capture or kill any terrorist who has been firing rockets into Israel. I do think the setting up of Israel a Jewish homestate back in 1948 was misguided but it’s a country now and the Arab world needs to accept this.
Of historical note – were the Israelites the original owners of the lands of that is now in Israel?
Genesis 15:18-21
18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river [a] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
(Yes so go invade and push out all those others)
And because their God says it their land that makes it somehow internationally legit is totally bs. What happens when other culture claims their God says otherwise?
Anyway my point which most of you completely missed was that it’s easier to write simplistic analogies but if you are so keen that the ‘original’ people on land should rule that land and ‘invaders’ should take a hike – then what lame excuses do you have for the Europeans (and most of your ancestors) invading North America and screwing the Native Americans? Er…um..yes well? lol
At the end of the day there is only one international law – might is right.
So keep throwing those rocks in glasshouses but if you can’t see the hyprocrisy and that morally you are dubious ground then you are seriously deluded.
@Wisdom
Quote
‘The Glass’s and the Biffers have one real big thing in common. They’re both pretty damn good at throwing rocks’
Yes – and that’s the real moral behind your story. It’s not that the Bashers are throwing rocks – it just that they are not good enough at throwing them. Same with the Hunters. lol
“I hope the Israeli find, capture or kill any terrorist who has been firing rockets into Israel.”
Yes, but we mustn’t hurt the ones who plan it, supply it, pay for it, organize it. Oh, no, they aren’t guilty enough, are they! Bonehead!
And, yes, everything is “relative” so who cares who wins, it’s all a big joke anyway. NO! It’s amoral people who are the “joke” and the joke is on them, because they are no better than the evil they cowardly look for ways to avoid condemning.
You don’t “get it” do you? There is no “middle ground.” Everyone MUST take a stand. You are either for good, or for evil. Those are the ONLY two choices on the board, and anyone who thinks he can sidestep the decision WILL automatically default to the “evil” category. You aren’t allowed to “pull an Obama” and vote “PRESENT.”
“And because their God says it their land that makes it somehow internationally legit is totally bs. What happens when other culture claims their God says otherwise?”
There is only ONE G-d, Genius. Only ONE of those making the claim can be correct. It’s up to you, using your moral compas and carefully reasoning through the evidence, to determine which one is telling the truth.
I repeat, mocking the choice doesn’t free you from having to make it, or from it’s consequences. Pretending you are absolved from choosing automatically places you among those who have chosen evil. You are allowed honest mistakes. But you are NOT allowed to not play the game.
Wow, insightful. Of course analogies are simplistic, that’s part of what makes them analogies. But just because you can’t write into them every facet of every side of every argument doesn’t make them useless. They tell a story from a specific point of view in order to be understood.
Actually, you are quite right. That is exactly one of the morals I tried to convey with my story. The fact is, regardless of the history of the region, that small piece of land is currently under the control of Israel. It is a country recognized by the United Nations and Nato, and a country full of civilians that are being targeted for just being who they are and living their lives.
Had the “Palestinians” been a little better at “throwing rocks” half a century ago, this conversation wouldn’t be happening, but they weren’t. They weren’t able to abolish the Jews that lived there, and they had to, and still do, live with the consequences of their choice to attack them.
Yes, in the Americas, our ancestors took a lot of land away from the Native Americans, just like virtually every other culture in the world has jockeyed for control of new and neighboring lands, including those very same Native American tribes. Does it make everyone in my culture is evil? I don’t think so. Is every “Palestinian” who wants to live in Jerusalem evil? No. But they aren’t all shooting rockets into Israel either. Israel knows that and are doing the best they can to limit civilian casualties, but war is war and innocent people get hurt.
If that kind of reasoning puts me on “morally dubious ground” then I guess I am deluded. I can live with that.
GaffaUK,
Please take the time to read this link that Yonason provided in comment # 9:
The so-called “Palestinians” are NOT!
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm
@Craig
I hope that helps him, but I doubt it will. He just doesn’t want to make a commitment, because he isn’t searching for the truth. Perhaps he’s just afraid to be wrong, which can take a long time to work through. Still, he hasn’t any choice, and either he does or he’s “one of them” until such time as he does, if ever. Anyway, I think what he needs is a spine, not facts. Till he acquires one, the facts will just be an annoyance to him, or something to make fun of.
@Yonsoan
Lol – so where am I condoning those who plan terrorist rocket attacks, supply it, pay for it, organize it? Imbecile. What – you forgot to add those take hostages, those who harbor terrorists etc etc!!! Does that mean you support them – of course not. Get real.
I didn’t say who cares wins and I did condemn the terrorists. How am I’m opting for the middle ground? Saying “I hope the Israeli find, capture or kill any terrorist who has been firing rockets into Israel.” isn’t sitting on the fence. Dumbass.
“There is only ONE G-d, Genius. Only ONE of those making the claim can be correct.”
B.S. There could be many gods as some people believe and there may be no god. Your logic is appalling. And anyone who uses God to excuse invasion and violence is no different to the Islamic fundamentalist nutters. In fact if you are Christian then why don’t you support a new crusade like the crusades of old. Hell the US and UK should of supported the creation of a Christian state because Christ was born there, Christians lived there too and besides the Jews deny that Jesus is Lord. lol
“I repeat, mocking the choice doesn’t free you from having to make it”
Mocking is great. The left and the right use it all the time. Free speech. And I made my choice and I stated it.
@Wisdom
Of course analogies are simplistic and you can’t tell every facet but your analogy was just too simplistic and overly bias that I felt it deserved to be ridiculed with another analogy.
The rest of your reasoning in your last post actually makes sense except in your analogy you mention the following….
“It’s not your house,” Andy would say to them, ducking to avoid the rocks, “It’s mine. You were just staying here while my family was gone.”
What did Andy’s folks just pop out for a while – took a vacation whilst they rented the place to the Bashers? So are you saying the setting up of Israel was justified because it used to settled and governed by the Israelites over 2500 years ago. They weren’t the first there and before the Muslim conquests in the 7th Century – the land fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian and Byzantine rule. Just check out Craig’s link. Certainly the Romans persecuted and expelled many Jews. So many can claim Andy’s place. And this raises questions – like should we rewind the clock back to over 2500 years and give back lands to those who happened to be living there? The Israeli’s can’t claim a moral high ground from what happened thousands of years ago. Otherwise that calls into question most countries in the world particularly the US. And unlike the Canannites, the Native American people weren’t fully assimilated by their invaders – so when are you going to move out?
However whatever anyone thinks about the setting up of the Israel state – I think it has a right to defend itself and it’s people. That’s why I absolutely support Israel’s action – BUT not on some 2500 year old+ claim. The Palestinians or whatever you want to call them – are defeated – and these mindless guerilla actions by some of it’s population is pointless murder. I don’t know why Israel withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank in the first place. It won those places in the wars of the century – so it should keep them and not allow the Palestinians to create their own self-rule states because these peace agreements aren’t working. It just allows scum like Hamas to thrive. But also there needs to be some permanent resolution – because Israel going back and forth like a yo-yo into these territories isn’t creating last peace either. It’s a shame that all the billions the US gives to Israel and Egypt since the Camp David accords can’t be better used to pay off the Palestinians and evict them to other Arab states who also get paid off.
GaggaUK, talking to you is like talking to a wall. You can read whatever you want into that one sentence, and I can explain it to you till my head aches. In the end, you will pick apart what you can and ignore what you can’t argue with.
The Isreali belief that they deserve the land because it is the holy land that belonged to their ancestors is no less valid than the American belief of manifest destiny to justify their expansion across North America, or even the British Crown’s belief that Queen Elizebeth should control the the United Kingdom because her ancestors were the last ones to win a war over the crown. The fact is, the modern claims to power are derived from modern conflict and modern politics. The histories of each simply validate their claims. It’s true all over the world — Asia, Africa, Europe, North or South America. Doesn’t matter.
You can nitpick all you want to, and you can read into it as much as you want to, but you can’t justify the purposeful targeting of civilians by Hamas and their allies. You have said as much in your own comments. So if you want to do the work of the Hamas propaganda wing and keep the worlds focus off their illegal targeting of civilians, keep on arguing against the small parts of the big equation. Maybe they will spare you when they start killing the rest of us infidels.
I think everyone agrees there must be some permanent resolution. Whether that’s possible is another matter, based on the players.
First off, Israel is not going “back and forth like a yo-yo”. They relocated Jewish settlers, despite their protests, from Gaza and withdrew Israeli forces in 2005. They left the Gazans their fertile farms that employed Palestinians… farms that now lay barren. The long and short of it is, Israel is not IN Gaza. They honored their withdrawal… and still Hamas was not satisfied.
Israel maintains checkpoints along the border…as they should. Guess what… so does Egypt. Egypt is just as reticent to let the Palestinians into their country as Israel is into theirs. Anyone whining about Egypt in the media or Muslim world? Of course not.
This obvious anti-Israel bias is the reason a “permanent resolution” will not be forthcoming. Hamas and the global jihad movements will not allow it. They do not benefit from co-existence and peace. As long as Hamas can run roughshod over the PA, Abbas, Fatah and the minority parties, there will not only be no peace agreement, but there will be no ceasefire.
‘The Isreali belief that they deserve the land because it is the holy land that belonged to their ancestors is no less valid than the American belief of manifest destiny to justify their expansion across North America, or even the British Crown’s belief that Queen Elizebeth should control the the United Kingdom because her ancestors were the last ones to win a war over the crown.’
Disagree – I see them as all invalid. The individuals or groups concerned may think whatever fundamentalist dribble they want – doesn’t make it moral or justified by others. Communists and Islamatic fundametalists may want world domination according their beliefs – but I’m not going to trot that out in an analogy as if it acceptable part of the modern problem.
“The fact is, the modern claims to power are derived from modern conflict and modern politics.”
Agree – so it’s modern power not historical ‘morality’ here.
“but you can’t justify the purposeful targeting of civilians by Hamas and their allies.”
I haven’t – I just want to remove the 2500+ claim as irrevelant
“Maybe they will spare you when they start killing the rest of us infidels”
Right – so I guess there is an immemient threat – a clear and present danger that muslims are going to invade the West. Quick run for the hills!
There has to be some middle ground between modern power and historic control though, or else no country’s existence is safe from another. It is respect for at least some level of historical control that keeps the big countries from swallowing up the little ones one after the other. If “might makes right” is the ONLY consideration, then we would soon be one world government under the rule of the USA, Russia, or China. That is, until the new big country gets ripped apart by internal strife and we have a bunch of new little ones and we start all over.
Have you even paid attention to the Islamist fundamentalists and their call to jihad? Do you have any idea what their interpretation of their own religion says to do with us infidels? THEY are the ones who have publicly stated that they are going to destroy the west and kill or convert us to the last man woman and child. Your damn right there is an imminent threat! They’ve made attacks in almost every western nation, and been thwarted even more times. How many people are they going to have to kill before you decide that they really are “an immemient threat”
They make these threats, they conduct these attacks on innocents all over the world in the name of Allah, then cry foul when we fight back. People like you minimalize the threat and think we are overeacting. Let me make this clear, as I did in another thread. Proportionate response is not appropriate response. Appropriate response is eliminating the threat forever.
I know what it’s like to feel helpless while my country is attacked by terrorists. There is only one way to make sure that never happens again. Kill them all. Kill the next ones. Then kill the next ones. Eventually the dumb sob’s will quit volunteering.
Hey Gaffa jackass, muslims did invade the U.S. and murdered 3000 Americans. And as has been pointed out they’ve been stopped from other attacks. If you pulled your head out of your ass you might understand that.
GaffaUK is a leftist pacifist liberal with his head in the sand. He cannot see reality. To be able to do this, he would have to first take his head out of the sand. But he doesn’t want to do this, he finds his head in the sand a comforting position, it prevents him from seeing the reality of Islamism jihad. He probably voted for Obama… lol
@GraffaUK
YOUR ANALOGY WAS A POINTLESS EXERCISE THAT EXPOSES YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL AND MENTAL WEAKNESS.
so where am I condoning those who plan terrorist rocket attacks, supply it, pay for it, organize it? Imbecile.
YOU ONLY SPECIFIED THOSE WHO LAUCHED THE MISSLES SHOULD BE KILLED, as I wrote – can’t you read?
There could be many gods as some people believe and there may be no god. Your logic is appalling.
NO, THERE CAN’T. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE “TRUTH,” AND SO IF THERE ARE TWO ABSOLUTELY CONFLICTING CLAIMS, THEN AT MOST ONLY ONE CAN BE TRUE. BUT YOU CAN’T BE BOTHERED WITH THE MENTAL OR MORAL EFFORT IN WRESTLING WITH IT, SO YOU TRY TO APPEAR WISE BY REMAINING ALOOF. NOT ONLY YOUR LOGIC, BUT YOUR ATTITUDE IS APPALLING.
And I made my choice and I stated it. … At the end of the day there is only one international law – might is right.
“IN OTHER WORDS, WHOEVER WINS, THAT’S WHO I’M FOR” – SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE COWARD. AND THERE ISN’T ANYTHING WRONG WITH WELL GROUNDED MOCKERY OF FOLLY, BUT MOCKERY FOR IT’S OWN SAKE IS THE REFUGE OF THE COWARD AND THE LIAR.
“There has to be some middle ground between modern power and historic control though, or else no country’s existence is safe from another. It is respect for at least some level of historical control that keeps the big countries from swallowing up the little ones one after the other. If “might makes right” is the ONLY consideration, then we would soon be one world government under the rule of the USA, Russia, or China. That is, until the new big country gets ripped apart by internal strife and we have a bunch of new little ones and we start all over.”
Ah – were are getting closer to agreement on this. This is the problem – it’s easy to huff and puff like some on this thread are doing about what GOOD and what’s EVIL and that things are BLACK or they WHITE etc. But these issues are much more complex. And I’m not talking specifically about terrorrist attacks. Because at some point countries have to draw a line historically as to what is valid. Therefore is that is in living memory? But surely most people accept of course the Israelites – are not going to accepy validity on who lived on a piece of land and governed it over 2500 years ago.
I accept the modern state of Israel but not the historic morality going back thousands of years as that is impractical. In a lot of conflicts you see generations harbouring grudges from centuries ago. Should African-Americans get compensation because their ancestors were slaves – of course not. Should Irish Protestants who settled in Northern Ireland 300 or so years ago head back to Scotland? No. Should the European decendants of Australian and Americans etc head back to Europe and give back governance to the ‘original’ occupants. No – impractical. So mentioning Andy grandfather – (or his ancestors owned the house it would be Great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather ) is irrevant. If that’s what some of the Israeli believe then sure – but put that in context and show how absurb that is.
‘Have you even paid attention to the Islamist fundamentalists and their call to jihad? Do you have any idea what their interpretation of their own religion says to do with us infidels? THEY are the ones who have publicly stated that they are going to destroy the west and kill or convert us to the last man woman and child. Your damn right there is an imminent threat! They’ve made attacks in almost every western nation, and been thwarted even more times. How many people are they going to have to kill before you decide that they really are “an immemient threat”’
Again check what I said. I didn’t say the West wasn’t in immiment threat from Islamic fundamentalist attacks. No – I said “invade”. Do you really believe they have the capability to kill everyone? Sure we have to EVERYTHING to stop terrorists planting bombs, firing rockets, flying planes into buildings but to paint some doomsday event where millions of Muslim Jihad nutters are going to kill us all is exaggeration. Of course I’m sure Bin Laden wants to. But I don’t believe that’s going to happen – they don’t have the means.
@ Hard Right.
Flying into a building and killing 3000+ people is a suicide attack not an invasion.
@Craig
I’m not a Pacificist. A pacificist wouldn’t agree with the Israel military rolling into Gaza. And I didn’t vote for Obama because I’m not an American citizen. The UK is a clue.
I “get” your problem with the Biblical historic claim for the Promised Land, Gaffa. And I also agree. I also am not one of those who is not confusing your argument of this claim with your perspective on the Hamas v Israel conflict.
My only nitpik is with your comment:
Technically, not correct. A suicide attack is just a single event or mission in an overall battle. Certainly 911 qualified as a suicide attack.
But it also qualifies as an invasion…. defined as:
1: an act of invading ; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2: the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful
Certainly the 2nd meaning needs no explanation. By that definition, invasion is also appropriate.
However the first also easily debatable, as the jihad movement (their “army”, however small) chose strategic targets intended for complete conquest … i.e. the financial center (WTC), the Pentagon (military response) and either Congress or the WH (leadership).
Every one of these constitutes an intent to collapse the western democracy. When combined with their goal of an eventual world wide caliphate, it’s entirely within an “invasion” definition.
@yonsaon
“YOUR ANALOGY WAS A POINTLESS EXERCISE THAT EXPOSES YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL AND MENTAL WEAKNESS”.
Ooh scary. I don’t believe in God. Maybe I’m going to hell. Get over it.
“YOU ONLY SPECIFIED THOSE WHO LAUCHED THE MISSLES SHOULD BE KILLED, as I wrote – can’t you read?”
And you maybe the dumbass ASSUMPTION therefore I supported those who helped. Your list wasn’t exhaustive of all the possible terrorists type of activities did it? So let me make it simple for you – I hope all terrorists and those who help terrorism get killed by their own bombs or are caught and executed by whatever nation happens to catch them. The only exception are those who use terrorist methods to fight occupying soldiers of dictatorships (e.g. French resistance killing Nazis). Hopefully that’s last exception isn’t too ‘liberal’ for you.
There could be many gods as some people believe and there may be no god. Your logic is appalling.
“NO, THERE CAN’T. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE “TRUTH,” AND SO IF THERE ARE TWO ABSOLUTELY CONFLICTING CLAIMS, THEN AT MOST ONLY ONE CAN BE TRUE. BUT YOU CAN’T BE BOTHERED WITH THE MENTAL OR MORAL EFFORT IN WRESTLING WITH IT, SO YOU TRY TO APPEAR WISE BY REMAINING ALOOF. NOT ONLY YOUR LOGIC, BUT YOUR ATTITUDE IS APPALLING.”
lol – I didn’t say their isn’t one truth. That is truth as in what is actually REAL rather than Christian version of GOD IS THE TRUTH or ALLAH IS TEH TRUTH. There is only one truth. I doubt if anyone on planet earth knows what that is. Lot’s of people claim they do. But the truth isn’t down to whether your God is real or if my God is real. In all likelihood there is NO GOD.
“IN OTHER WORDS, WHOEVER WINS, THAT’S WHO I’M FOR” – SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE COWARD. AND THERE ISN’T ANYTHING WRONG WITH WELL GROUNDED MOCKERY OF FOLLY, BUT MOCKERY FOR IT’S OWN SAKE IS THE REFUGE OF THE COWARD AND THE LIAR”
Yeah nice cut and paste job there idiot. You should work for Fox.
My choice referring to the current conflict…
“I hope the Israeli find, capture or kill any terrorist who has been firing rockets into Israel.”
And see above for the additional coverage of all terrorists which you obviously needed – Bonehead. What’s your view on terrorism yonsaon? Funny how American expected the world to suddenly get serious on terrorism when it gets hit but was happy to send arms and money to the IRA and kill and maim innocent men, women and children for their political ends.
@ MataHarley
I really don’t believe in 50-100 years when historians look back and will use the word invasion in terms of the 9/11 attacks. I think you are bending the word to breaking point.
If you come too close then you are ‘invading’ my space. So if Italian does that – does that mean the Italians are invading. Because the Unabomber send bombs (something hurtful)- was he invading the US? I no doubt Bin Laden wants to invade the US but he doesn’t have the current capacity. Of course that is debatable. But I really think invasion is over-cooking it. Why not go further – maybe the Muslims raped America? Let’s call it what it was – a suicide terrorist attack.
Remember one of the biggest things that Bin Laden want is for the West to fear him and his cronies and us to be too fearful to go about our normal day to day lives. We have to protect ourselves but if we get too hysterical like the Commie Red Threat of McCarthyism in the 50s then I believe you are letting him win.
“I accept the modern state of Israel but not the historic morality going back thousands of years as that is impractical.” — GaffaUK
Why, “impractical?” You dismiss centuries of attachment to the Land of Israel by Jews and essentially ONLY Jews, who have maintained a CONTINUOUS presence in the Land, despite the fact that living there was next to impossible?
One fo the criteria for a Nation is having a homeland, and Jews have NEVER abandoned ours. Maybe now is a good time for you to read that reference I provided that Craig suggested you read, because it kicks the stuffing out our your argument. We Jews love the Land, and the Arabs could care less. They only want to steal what we have built up, which is all Muslim “greatness” has ever been, the pilfered riches of others.
This is why I keep saying you aren’t thinking this through, because none of your arguments hold water, although you have somewhat acquitted yourself on the “might makes right” statement with your recent clarification (though you shoot yourself in the foot on your previous argument about American “manifest destiny).
Anyway, go back and read this now to get a little more perspective.
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm
Also, you might want to take a look at this.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html
Remember, by dismissing a 3500 year CONTINUOUS connection with the land, both ideological AND PHYSICAL, you condratict all social science theories about what makes a Nation. Note also that we speak the same language that was spoken in ancient Israel, and the towns and cities have the same Hebrew names now that our ancesters called them then. The Arabs have only their lies and a tenuous transient connection. So, if you like making silly assumptions that contradict accepted wisdom, go right ahead, but don’t complain when you get laughed at for it.
There is just so much information out there that there is no excuse for remaining ignorant.
I think we’re somewhere in the middle on that “invasion” v “suicide attack”, Gaffa. But you only gave two choices, saying it was one, but not the other.
The London bombing, the Bali bombing, the wedding receptions, outdoor markets, etal… undeniably “suicide attacks”. However when there are at least four separate and simultaneous assaults at strategic targets for military, financial and government leadership, the 911 attacks go beyond a mere “suicide attack”. As you also admit, the intent is there – the global jihad movement would like nothing better than to “invade” in the simplest of concepts you apply.
I’d say we agree in concept, but have not found agreeable language. It is more than a “suicide attack”, but I’ll concede that it’s less than an “invasion” as you use the term. What’s inbetween? Dunno. But I’d say “act of war” covers it nicely.
What’s the problem here???
Hamas wants to destroy israel and murder all the jews.
It purposely targets israeli women and children, hoping to commit genocide, but unable to to it because of its weakness and incompetence. They use palestinian children and women as suicide bombers or human shields, instead of protecting them and cherishing them. Young hamas morons are sent off as suicide bombers while the powerful old hamas men who love their lives so much sit back and direct operations.
Some silly westerners say they must be suffering so much to do suicide bombing. You forget it was the japanese who invented suicide bombing. It comes from stupidity and hatred rather than despair. You’ll all remember when the americans threatened to A-bomb the emperor, he quickly surrendered, rather than die. Before that he had been calling all japanese to sacrifice their lives to defend japan. Then he surrended himself, out of fear for his life.
Hamas is not interested in building a nation or improving the lives or living standards of palestinians, they only want to destroy israel. There can be no peace with Hamas. It must be destroyed and its supporters also.
Since Hamas is like that, might as well kill all of them and their supporters also. Those arab countries that support Hamas should have insurgencies and bombings sponsored by israel to let them suffer also and encourage them to stop supporting Hamas.
The day when “palestinians” realize they are being used as cannon fodder by arabs against israel and that their real enemy is the arabs and not the jews, is the day when palestine will become peaceful nation.
LOL! Ah yes. Now if that were but what the original post was about. Wisdom decided to weave a tale like Aesop, and like most fables, we’re not really arguing about news events but philosophy. And by the looks, there’s been a lot of major assumptions attached to some comments, which … like the game of gossip… appears to have veered somewhere way outside the boundaries of a tangible discussion about anything.
… don’t make me say that again… :0)
But as far as I can see, most of us here agree… including GaffaUK… that the scummy Hamas bombers need to be taken care of, that modern Israel may or may not be grounded in historic rights but certainly has a right to exist today, and last but not least…. Brits and Americans may both speak English, but that doesn’t always help our ability to communicate.
And the “moral of the story is”?? Wisdom, next time leave the fables to Aesop!
“Ooh scary. I don’t believe in God. Maybe I’m going to hell. Get over it.” — GaffaUK
You totally missed the point, or are attempting to deflect it so as not to have to deal with it. In any case, I don’t intend to lose any sleep over your inability to comprehend reality.
And, just because you don’t believe in something doesn’t make it not exist.
Finally, I won’t bore you with the few details I know, but there is no such thing as “eternal damnation,” so I couldn’t be threatening you with that.
Ain’t no-one be scared of Bin Laden.
We just think he should be killed.
In fact I consider it the universal duty of all free world citizens anywhere to kill Bin Laden on sight.
In any case, the militant islamoarabs just got humiliated very badly in Iraq. I also bet with the guys in my trading room that the iraq op would be successful. Methinks I will be collecting on it soon. Whenever americans fight arabs, the americans always win.
Some arabs are decent guys but arab societies as a whole are backwards socially and have no recent achievements to be proud of. You see anything in the west made by arabs??? Nope, all made by chinese and japanese.
The only thing the arabs have is oil. I guess it can substitute for brains and hardwork most of the time.
It is interesting that you put so much focus on the part of my analogy that refers to the historical ownership. The character, Andy, only refers to it once. The Bashers, however, rant consistently throughout the story that Andy should leave THEIR home. The vast majority of the analogy discusses Andy’s concessions to their demands, the lack of support he receives from the town council, and his eventual need to stand up for himself. It could have just as easily been the story of suburban homeowner defending his home from criminals, and the use of his second amendment rights to protect himself when the police were unable to, but we all knew what the true focus was.
As for the word invasion, dig through the FA archives and look at the posts which refer to big picture plans of the islamic fundamentalists. Violence is only one tactic in their jihad. Political, economic, social, and religious expansion into the West are all parts of the plan, and as far as I’m concerned, part of an invasion. Look at France, where they are putting special bathrooms in public places just to appease the one segment of their society. I even had to deal with a Muslim employee who refused to clean a bathroom because it was beneath him. He thought it was work suited to women and non-muslims. Internationally, Muslims are using their vast oil profits to purchase land and businesses all over the world, and then using their new status’ to exert pressure at a local level to promote their own policies. They are even taking over schools. And, of course, they also claim they intend to invade and kill us all. Should we just ignore them?
When someone points a gun at you at a family reunion, should you just ignore him because the gun doesn’t have enough bullets to kill your whole family? Or should you put him down before he hurts anyone.
Gaffa: Are you misbehaving again?
But I like my fables Mata 🙁 And, apparently, they touched a nerve with Gaffa, so I’m happy. I am, however, going to quit arguing with him. He is quite exhausting and not much of what he says makes sense or is even consistent. I’ve enjoyed the feedback, but I’m going to move on to other things. Besides, I have to be up at 4 for work. Have fun. 🙂
just playing off a pun for ya, Wisdom. You are, of course, free to expound your gems of wit and wisdom in whatever way makes you happiest
I found that article to be a very interesting insight for what is going on with the Israeli/Hamas war:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/01/gen_shermans_disproportionate.html
The supporters need to be dealt with also, need to be convinced to no longer support Hamas. But I suspect that Hamas demands their support at the point of gun and usually gets it. It is those who willingly finance and provide Hamas with material and media support who need to be convinced otherwise. These willing supporters may not be in Palestine.
Whatever it is, it is a tough job dealing with these evil people.
@MataHarley
Act of war – yeah sounds about right. Like Pearl Harbor – 9/11 awoke the US to dangers like a sleeping giant. And it was absolutely right to go into Afghanistan. I just wish the same amount of troops had gone in there as in Iraq – and the US hadn’t lost it focus on Bin Laden. He should of been caught by now.
@Sigmundringeck
The Japanese didn’t invent suicide bombing. Check out History under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing#Background
@Wisdom
I have no time for the Islamic religion…in fact I although I find politics and religion interesting….I don’t rate any religions. I see them as creation myths and ways to keep populations under control. Most people adopt the religion of their parents. But I particularly dislike Islamic religion – because of it’s backward values, violence and attititudes towards women and non-muslims. BUT I separate these values from those who are muslims. Just look at Italians – are they are Christian fundamentalists who follow the Bible religiously. Some may. Some may not. So you can condemn the religion but treat people individually depending where they stand on the spectrum of having their private religion and rejecting some of the more absurb rants in their Koran (and GOD knows the Bible has it’s fair share of bizarre and impratical requests for the 21st century) to the few who want to strap on explosives and kill innocents. You know i really don’t think Muslims are going to invade by refusing to clean toilets. Who cares? Don’t hire them. As for Middle Eastern Oil – well the West only has itself to blame if it has become so dependant on oil. We could have seen this decades ago especially when OPEC put the squeeze on in the 1970s but no – we didn’t bother to find alternative fuels – so instead we continue to make the richer. Generally when someone puts a gun to my head I don’t ignore them.
As for your analogy – yes I ponced on those TWO references (the grandfather reference and it’s my house) because this is the sort of lame excuses that gets caught up in these debates as justification for Israeli action. Just look at yonsaon’s recent posts to confirm his nuttiness. It’s as if only the Jews have this special relationship to the land they live on. I’m sorry but there are plenty of people from all backgrounds and religions who have attachments to their land but they don’t bang on about it as much – using 2500+ year old claim of right which is laughable when applied to any other country. Although it is mixed with religion and history – I believe this only weakens Israel case. If we could only accept it as a modern country recognised by the UN and has a right to defend it’s populace without rushing to the Bible and handpicking selective quotes then it would be in a better place.
@ Mike’s America
Yes
@yonsaon
No such a thing like a Palestinian people.
What constitutes people? How is this relevant? How many ‘people’ suddenly appeared and disappeared when modern countries come and go? Are you only considered a people when you are able to govern your own part of the world? So if the Israelites were unable to invade Caanan and create ancient Israel then they would no longer be a people? What about of the stateless ethic groups? Are they real people?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stateless_ethnic_groups
And there are no neat boxes for people and races etc – and guess what people intermarry etc – yep even Jews. And guess what – you know those pesky Palestinian/Arabs or whatever you want to call them – their DNA comes from Jews and Christians from that area.
Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim in 2000 matched historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians,[70][71] together as the one same population, represent modern “descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times”, albeit religiously Christianized and later largely Islamized, then both ultimately becoming culturally Arabized.[72] Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian “Muslim Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian#DNA_and_genetic_studies
So because they changed religions that means during the last century – they should be pushed out by those who kept their religion? Does that mean Catholics should push out the Anglicans in the UK? Or pagans push out Christians? Whether you consider Palestinians a fake name or not – it still refers to those arabs who found that a Jewish state had been formed against their will in the land they were born in – unlike the millions who came from abroad to live there. Who only claim the land because their ancestors many many generations ago – some going back over 2500 years ago happened to live in that area of the world. And you have never addressed the issue of the Native Americans. Do you live in the US? If so – don’t you think they have a total claim therefore on all the US? They lived far longer in the US than the Israelites were in Israel and they were pushed aside only 300 or so years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stateless_ethnic_groups
Correct geographic name of the Land of Israel is Canaan, not “Palestine” (a Roman invention, as we will see later).
Puhlease – you know all names are inventions and are actually made up by humans don’t you. Canaan wasn’t the original name. It might have been ugh-ugh by some caveman as far as we know. What’s the correct name for Britain? Do we call it Albion because that’s older name for Britain or do we have to keep digging back until we find a name that wasn’t invented. Lol
“After the Exodus, when the Israelites conquered the Land, there were some wars between them and the Canaanites throughout the period of the Sofetim (Judges), and were definitively subdued by King David. By that time, most Canaanites were married to Israelites, others voluntarily accepted Torah becoming Israelites, others joined up in the Israelite or Judahite army. Actually, the Canaanites are seldom mentioned during the Kings’ period, usually in reference to their heathen customs introduced among the Israelites, but no longer as a distinguishable people, because they were indeed assimilated into the Israelite nation.”
So to be invaded by Arabs is bad but being invaded by Israelites is okay as long as you force the current populace to submit and intermarry. Lol. Because the Canaanites are no longer distinguishable people doesn’t make the Israelites the original people. Normans intermingled with the Saxons but doesn’t historically the original people even though no one claims to be Norman or Saxon these days. There are people who claim to be celtic but they weren’t the original people to their lands either. History is about waves and waves of invaders not genuinely original claimants.
“It is from the term “Philistines” that the name “Palestinians” has been taken. Actually, the ancient Philistines and modern Palestinians have something in common: both are invaders from other lands!”
Yep – like the Israelites and almost every other people in history.
“Whenever the issue concerning the Jewish population in Israel is discussed, the idea that Jews are “returning back” to their Homeland after almost two millennia of exile is taken for granted. It is true that such is the case for the largest number of Jews, but not for all of them”
Yep – they made up 11 per cent of the population. So? Is that a reason to set a state based on a small minority who have long since lost ownership of a land they invaded?
You know I admire the Israeli state for having the guts to survive, having won the wars it has won, for fighting terrorists and defending it’s small patch of land. But when I hear the tired old whine of history which goes back 2500+ years I think they really need to get real. Try for once answering my question on whether you believe the Native American should be entitled to rule and govern the whole US because they had CONTINUOUS attachment to their lands? Go on…
And back in1948 – I reckon it was a shame that the Allies didn’t set up a Jewish homestate the size of Israel within Germany. That would have been a lasting rebuke to Hitler montrous acts against the Jews. Of course it doesn’t have the HOLY CONNECTION – but remember the Christians also view Israel as the most HOLY of places and should they claim it back.
You know Gaffa, you are very well spoken on several points, even if I do bash you a little bit. I think though, that it is your own preoccupation with the historical claims and not our attempts to defend them that has kept the focus on them and this discussion going as far as it has. I think Mata is correct that there is a middle ground here where we all agree on. I don’t think you or yonason will ever be on the same page when it comes to the historical perspective, because there is too much personal bias involved on both sides, but I think the core belief of Isreals right to exist is common on both sides of this particular argument, and the details surrounding each sides reason for supporting that right is semantics. It is either a personally valid reason or it is not.
And *I* wish that the US hadn’t turned over Afghanistan to NATO control… shortly following which security in that country took a nosedive. But we lives with the decisions made, and the US Congress was adamant that Afghanistan maintained an “international” face via UN/NATO. I’ve always said, if you need a recipe for failure, give it to the UN and/or NATO.
In retrospect, I have mixed feelings about capturing or killing Bin Laden on the battlefield v where we are today. A Bin Laden in Gitmo would now be paying his lawyers for his time in a US federal court, and enjoying US constitutional rights. That don’t sit well with me as a prospect.
Killing him on the battlefield would elevate his stature to holy martyr. Don’t like that either.
In some ways, I believe his life of hiding amongst the tribal population while watching the Muslim world – irate with his indiscriminate murder and attacks on Muslims – reject his warfare and visions increasingly over time may be a long, slow, and mentally torturous punishment. Then finally….death in oblivion, irrelevance and out of favor by peers, as the icing on the cake.
And this is the country that the Islamists want to destroy. Are they out of their mind? I am proud of having USA as neighbors and I would be just as proud to have Israel as neighbors. What’s wrong with those Arab countries? Watch this video:
Cool Facts about Israel – New Version – Israeli Music
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=CeVvMJdvEX8
@ Wisdom
Well I felt it fair to focus on this. Firstly – the whole issue of condemning the terrorists is being well covered on other threads (including this thread) but I actually felt it important to debate the issue which always gets caught up in this debate – is the moral highground based on distant history (as opposed to modern history and what’s happening now).
Secondly – if I am defocusing from the terrorists this doesn’t mean I don’t condemn them – which I do in no uncertain terms. However this is pretty much a debating forum – I don’t think it makes any difference in the real world. If my words somehow increases terrorist activities because I dispute historical claim of old – on this forum – then I will eat my hat.
A lot of hotspots around the world do revolve around very old conflicts which are treated like they are old wounds.
@MataHarley
Unfortunately I reckon whatever happens – he will be seen as a Martyr. Let’s give his followers that wish as soon as we can find him!
GaffaUK, I’m with you on that. Actually, I’ll agree to either a slow death as a pariah of irrelevance … or shot the cockroach. Either one works for me. But I sure don’t want him to languish in a US cell and play the US judicial system for PC fools.