What I heard on NPR this AM is that the GOP and conservative Democrats would be willing to support the bridge loan bill in return for the unions agreeing to accept wage reductions. The UAW refused; so the bill didn’t pass.
I’m in favor of the GOP/conservative Democrat position on this, which is eminently sensible and fair, given current economic conditions.
P.S. Mike: You said that you were proud of South Carolina’s DeMint. Are you also proud of Democratic Majority Leader, Harry Reid, who also voted against the bridge loans?
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Fit fit
16 years ago
I believe Bush is advising Paulson to use TARP to fund bridge loans for the Auto Industry. Now they’ll get to have the money with no strings attached. Good work DeMint.
AdrianS
16 years ago
TARP (the Financial Banks and Lending institutions’ Bail-Out) as a funding source for the auto makers would defy the TARP fund, which was set up with the explicit mandate (meaning NO other legal use is possible) of helping troubled banks and financial services companies. Or, are we witnessing ENRON type behavior on the part of the Federal Government and Bush Administration.
AdrianS
16 years ago
Note also that the Bush Administration is plotting to use TARP, circumventing TARP’s limitations, by having (non-financially troubled) banks provide loans to automakers. Talk about an illegal side-ways scheme. Is this akin to racketeering at the federal level? Don’t they have to follow the law? – TARP is for “troubled” financial institutions ONLY! I smell a rat. Everybody, get your tape recorders out and record what government officials are plotting for evidence at trial.
newguy40
16 years ago
The UAW Prez “News Conference” was on every major network this morning. Could not avoid it while trying to eat my breakfast. I have nothing against unions per se. But, this fellow was cringe worthy. After listening to him, I got a sense that he was just a puppet. Who is pulling this guys strings?
I watched Corker get reamed on MSCNBC Norah O’Donnell. She had less command of the situation and facts than the average tree stump. She kept trying to lay this at the feet of the GOP OR his lobbying on behalf of the non GM (ie FOREIGN) automakers in Tennessee.
As far as Paulson and Bush using TARP money, I have to once again say these folks simply do not listen to the tax payers who are simply fed the h___ up.
Larry: You might have noticed that I am proud of the leadership role Senator DeMint has played on this issue.
I haven’t noticed the Majority LEADER doing much leading in regard to the matter. Have you?
Old Trooper
16 years ago
ENRON couldn’t pull the handle and get a Jackpot like the Financials & Automakers did.
Expect any accountability? Nope. What happens in DC or Vegas stays there!
The TARP Funds demand no accountability whatsoever!
The rape, pillage & plunder of the Treasury continues. I give to Charities of my choosing and voluntarily. These are not Charities, nor of my choosing, nor is it voluntary on my part. None of this cash will be repaid to the US Taxpayer in my lifetime!
Craig
16 years ago
The KEY words here are: “GM had its best sales year ever in 2007. It sold over 9 million cars around the world — the same number as Toyota. But Toyota made $20 billion, and GM lost $40 billion.”
It is clear that the problem has to do with unions who have become sort of a Maffia.
Here is a great video done by TVO a Canadian Ontario television program: The agenda with Steve Paikin. They are comparing the New deal with the Old deal in times of Roosevelt and Hoover. On the panel is Russ Robert, David Kennedy, Eric Lascelles Leo Ohanion and Joe Martin.
The video is 35 minutes long, but you sure do get a clear idea from all angles. It is a MUST.
Is this the new model of socialized industries? Just take control of marketing and production, but leave the title in the names of the owners and shareholders? Not any company of mine. I’ll take belly up, thank you.
Real American Patriot
16 years ago
Mata,
We are allowing car companies from other countries to assemble and sell cars in this country while they are backed by their governments. Why not back the auto industry in our country that supports OUR workers? Or should we send the foreign car companies packing and let them sell their products in the own countries? Better yet go back to adding on a tariff. The playing field is simply not the same when other governments are backing their countries auto industries when we do not.
Mike you can be proud of Senator DeMint and his so called leadership. I surely am not. He needs to get voted OUT next election!
Certified Real American Patriot (C.R.A.P.): Since all those car companies from overseas are making money and the big three are losing it perhaps we should let the foreign entities which control those companies take over ours as well?
Sky/RAP, I’ll be danged if I can discern a point in your apples to kumquats comment, guy. Honda, Toyota… none of these are owned by the government and are private enterprises/shareholder controlled…. which is not majority govt owned shares. Try checking out the company profiles of the most well known foreign auto makers with factories here… Honda, Toyota and BMW.
And least ye interpret my point that it is stealth Marxism as extreme right wing, I might point out an article just a couple of days ago in the IHT by David Sanger that echos my opinion.
“We don’t want government to run companies,” Obama told Tom Brokaw on “Meet the Press.” “Generally, government historically hasn’t done that very well.”
But what Obama went on to describe was a long-term government bailout that would be conditioned on government oversight. It could mean that the government would mandate, or at least heavily influence, what kind of cars companies make, what mileage and environmental standards they must meet and what large investments they are permitted to make to recreate an industry that Obama said “actually works, that actually functions.”
It all sounds perilously close to a word that no one in Obama’s camp wants to be caught uttering: nationalization.
~~~
Yet so far, there is no talk of offering aid to Toyota, Honda, BMW or the other foreign automakers that have built factories on American soil, employed American workers and managed to make a profit doing so.
“If Japan was doing this, we’d be threatening billions of dollars in retaliation,” said Jeffrey Garten, a professor at the Yale School of Management, who as under secretary of commerce in the 1990s was one of many government officials who tried in vain to get Detroit prepared for a world of international competition. “In fact, when they did something a lot more subtle, we threatened exactly that,” referring to calls for import restrictions.
Garten said he was stunned by the scope of the intervention that Washington was now considering. “I don’t know that we’ve seen anything like this since the government told the automakers what kind of tanks to make during World War II,” he said. “And that was just for the duration of the war this could be for much, much longer.”
~~~
Depending on how the longer-term revamping of the industry proceeds, Washington could become a major shareholder in the Big Three, it could provide loans, or, in one course that Obama seemed to hint at on Sunday, it could organize what amounts to a “structured bankruptcy.” In that case, the government would convene the creditors, the unions, the shareholders and the company’s management, and apportion a share of the hit to each of them. If that “consensus building” sounds a lot like the role of the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry in the 1970s and the 1980s, well, it is.
To promote the Japanese car industry on the way up, the trade ministry nudged companies toward consolidation, and even tried to mandate which parts of the market each could go into. (Soichiro Honda, the founder of the company, rebelled when bureaucrats told him he was supposed to limit himself to making motorcycles.) By the 1980s, Congress was denouncing this as “industrial policy,” and arguing that it put American makers at a competitive disadvantage and polluted free enterprise.
Now, it is Congress doing exactly that, but this time as emergency surgery. Other nations will doubtless complain, or begin doing the same for their own companies. “We’re at this moment in history, in which the Chinese are touting that their system is better than ours” with their mix of capitalism and state control, said Garten, who has long experience in Asia. “And our response, it looks like, is to begin replicating what they’ve been doing.”
A cure? Nope. Pandora’s box… And the US seizing operational control of a free market enterprise *should* scare the begeezus out of you.
blast
16 years ago
mataharley,
Is this the new model of socialized industries? Just take control of marketing and production
Yeah they will call them “Patriot Cars”, “Real American SUV’s”, and the new line will only come in Red, White and Blue.
lol.
Craig
16 years ago
Real American Hater, if you are interested in getting some education, here is a good article for you:
“Many progressives are looking forward to increased government oversight over the auto industry. They see this as a chance to influence the types of vehicles that are produced and to dictate that production be turned to socially beneficial uses, including the manufacture of green cars that auto manufacturers are not manufacturing.”
“…This is incorrect. Rather, the progressives who support nationalization are being very short-sighted and are threatening to return society back to feudalism and are threatening to destroy the development of new technologies, technologies that will be vital to improving our standard of living while reducing the amount of pollution and natural resources needed to maintain such comfort. This not hyperbole but rather simple fact.”
“…The problem, which has plagued all fascist and socialist economies throughout history, is that nationalization destroys the ability of the economy to rationally allocate capital goods and invest in the future. It is this incapability that is behind the phenomenon where communist countries seem to become mired in the past with stagnant technology, bare shelves in shops and factories that routinely fail to meet production quotas.”
John Ryan
16 years ago
Yeah screw Detroit Let’s all buy Jap cars. And in 2010 the first Chinese cars will be rolling in (assembled in Mexico so under NAFTA they can come in duty free) This will help us into the new world order with our overlords the Asians. In the USA the labor cost difference in a car made by the big 3 and by a foreign country owned brand is about 1200 dollars. The reason that people buy the foreign badged cars is not that 1200 dollars it is the design/engineering. It only takes about 30 total man hours to assemble a car regardless of whether its a Ford or a Toyota http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_labor_cost_to_build_a_new_car
Mike,
Can you pull out my #59 post who is stuck in spam on your other thread: Obama not guilty? It is being sitting there for about 2 hours. Thanks
jainphx
16 years ago
Something I just don’t understand, and would like it explained to me. Why are the CEO’s of the big three so eager to keep the union intact. They have the opportunity to get wages and a lode of other things under control, but don’t seem to want to, is there collusion here, and if so, why. The Co. are paying more people not to work than to work.
Craig: I don’t always check the spam filters even if I am commenting on a particular post. The spam filter is on a separate page that I don’t see unless I go there.
Real American Patriot
16 years ago
Mata, Mike and Craig,
Toyota is denying it but the Japanese government paid for 100 percent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.
This is according to an ex employee who is now vice chairman and president of Chrysler.
Many foreign government back up their auto industries… we need to do the same..
I believe in FAIR trade not free trade. And if you had lost your job because of foreign labor like I have you’d probably feel the same way.
Fine CRAP… Let Japan bail out the United Auto Workers Union. Or how about we sell GM Ford and Chrysler to the Japanese?
We’re not talking about batteries and hybrid cars here are we?????
Get serious!
This has nothing to do with the product, but the costs associated with producing it. Each car manufactured by the big three costs an average of $2,000 more than a similar car manufactured in the United States by one of the others.
And those costs are entirely due to union greed.
blast
16 years ago
Mike’s America, what about the $3 Billion in tax breaks given to foreign car manufacturers?
We get fleeced in every direction we turn. We let this government DOUBLE the national debt in the past 8 years… who is going to pay that bill? $700 Billion blank check to Bush/Paulson to give out to Wall Street Banks, oh, and whoever they want to. Why not mandate that the workers on Wall Street cannot make more than the average American… why should we be subsidizing bankers pay?
I guess we should just outsource all manufacturing, we can all work in Walmart and McDonalds.
Hard Right
16 years ago
Blast, I’m against the bailout, but let’s be fair. While the Reps spent like drunken sailors, when the dems took over they spent like sailors on PCP. Yes, Bush should have done more veto wise, but it is what it is. We also have that whole war thing going on. It tends to increase spending too.
As for other car manufacturers are you saying we shouldn’t give tax breaks to foreign car manufacturers? They could have put the plants in Mexico if they wanted to. Then we get NOTHING from their productivity.
Craig
16 years ago
Crap and Blast don’t understand economics, Hard Right. That is their problem. They are FOR nationalization, bailout, protectionism and they are AGAINST tax cuts for the companies and against free trade and globalization. They just don’t understand. I gave them a good article to read (# 14) but clearly they didn’t read it. I give them a good video to watch (#8), but 35 minutes of concentration was probably to hard for them to watch. They don’t want to know, they just want to keep believing what they do already falsely believe.
The KEY words here are: “GM had its best sales year ever in 2007. It sold over 9 million cars around the world — the same number as Toyota. But Toyota made $20 billion, and GM lost $40 billion.”
It’s an odious comparison. GM spends way more on health care than it spends on steel. Toyota’s own domestic employees benefit from government provided health care. If you don’t support the bail out and you want to see GM competitive with Toyota, I presume that you also support a comprehensive national health care system for the US.
Larry: You might have noticed that I am proud of the leadership role Senator DeMint has played on this issue.
I haven’t noticed the Majority LEADER doing much leading in regard to the matter. Have you?
Just once, I’d love to see you guys catching a prominent Democrat in the process of doing something right and give him/her a little credit for it. The Senate majority leader cannot realistically assume a leadership role in trying to get many of his caucus to commit political suicide. It’s like a single lieutenant charging to do battle with an enemy army, without the possiblity of being followed by more than one or two of his own. A wise platoon leader leads the battles he can win and a wise political leader does the same. It’s remarkable enough that the much hated liberal Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid joined with the Republicans on this one. Don’t you think that this is deserving of at least grudging respect and recognition?
P.S. Who’da thunk the President would be so pro-union?
Somewhere along the way this debate seems to have overlooked the fact that Detroit, for all its blunders, is still a viable economic engine, providing jobs to millions and creating some of the world’s best cars. For example, the best-selling vehicle in America, even in this downturn, is still Ford’s (F) F-Series truck, and second place goes to the Chevrolet Silverado . Even the Dodge Ram continues to hold a strong position in the Top 20 vehicle list, while sales of the Toyota Prius are down substantially with the fall-off in gasoline prices. (We assume that the Prius is the type of car the left wants Detroit to build.)
And speaking of Japanese cars, I hate to point out the obvious, but car sales in Japan are lower today than they were 15 years ago, down over 30% just last month. Yet you won’t see the heads of the Japanese auto companies on the carpet in front of their government officials, being drilled with questions like, “Why don’t you build cars the public wants to buy?”
What’s amazing is that Senator Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) is such a huge critic of using taxpayer money to bail out Detroit. Amazing because the state of Alabama has provided hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to lure foreign auto companies to build factories on its soil.
Tax Breaks for Jobs
Of course, when Alabama gave Mercedes-Benz (DAI) $253 million to build a factory there, or about $168,000 per job created, that was considered a good thing. When Honda (HMC) considered building a new factory there, that was worth $158 million, and Hyundai’s Southern site choice forced the state to cough up $234 million more. Again, these were considered wise investments because the promise was that they would create more jobs for the chronically underpaid Alabama workforce. However, in the summer of 2003, Mercedes brought in Polish workers on questionable B-1 work visas to expand the factory because they could be paid far less than the local workforce.
With regard to DeMint, one could make the same parochial criticism. DeMint’s leadership may be seen not entirely as principled stand for conservative issues, but also as protectionism for South Carolina’s own foreign-owned (BMW) and South Carolina taxpayer-subsidized auto industry.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Norseman
16 years ago
Just how ignorant are you people?
Senator Reid voted against cloture for procedural reasons. Had he voted “Aye”, he could not raise the issue again.
“what about the $3 Billion in tax breaks given to foreign car manufacturers?”
is a red herring thrown out by the auto union and the democrats. What they don’t mention is that over the years American auto companies have racked up as much or more in tax breaks from states to revamp plants or or relocate to their states. I’ll use Chrysler as an example because I have family members employed there.
Here we have Chrysler taking in $114 million in one year from Illinois and Missouri:
When they built the Chrysler in IL a few years later PPG built a paint plant and a glass company built a plant across the street from Chrysler. We not only benefitted from Chrysler, we benefitted from the two additional plants, local companies that made parts and supplies also were able to increase their work force. Then the union gets involved and insists that all suppliers are union shops or they strike.
Another example is the foreign auto plant in Texas that only employed 800 but brought 5000 additional jobs into the community.
Back up there, Sky/RAP. You’re still talking apples and kumquats here.
First of all you say Toyota denies the govt subsidies, and it’s only one guy – now at Chrysler – who insists it is true. So I’d say we haven’t got a clue if what you represent is fact.
But for grins and giggles, let’s say it is. There is a vast difference between govt subsidies of retooling (which we’ve already done for the big three) … and having an auto czar dictate to the company just what cars they will manufacture, and how much they will cost.
There is no proof – not even a hint of a suggestion – that the Japanese govt has the micro management power over Toyota or Honda, nor Germany over BMW, that this Congress is demanding here.
And you’re not the lone ranger with jobs disappearing to more profit friendly countries. Even the sound industry for film/TV had this problem back in the middle 90s. Our “outsourcing” came from many places because the unions had driven up the costs for post production. And yes… I was a union editor. After spending big bucks on the preproduction, the cast, the production and then the editing, they were looking to pinch pennies on sound and dubbing stage… the last step before duplication and distribution to theatres.
So they used small non-union houses with inexperienced personnel who worked cheap… or instead took it to Canada. I saw the writing on the wall back then, and got out early. Now most of the sound houses have been absorbed as a “department” in a larger service facility in order to package the costs and be more competitive.
So do I place a good deal of business costs on unions? Yes… right along with OSHA and the EPA. Heavy government regs and union contract demands make it very difficult for American companies to compete. It’s the same old rule… you have to spend less than you rake in. And the big three haven’t been doing this for quite some time.
We get fleeced in every direction we turn. We let this government DOUBLE the national debt in the past 8 years… who is going to pay that bill? $700 Billion blank check to Bush/Paulson to give out to Wall Street Banks, oh, and whoever they want to.
Last I checked, only Congress could write legislation, and hand out the cash… and a POTUS could only say yes or no. Yes, I’m seething at Bush’s Bernanke/Paulson pick, and what they have constructed as a “cure”. But remember that Paulson started with a three page skeleton draft on the Wall Street bailout, and Congress…cheerleading done by 100% of the Dems and way too many GOPers to make me comfortable… turned it into the 600+ page piece’o’sheeeeet that it is today.
So frankly, I take exception to you passing this off totally on Bush/Paulson’s shoulders, and giving the DNC led cheerleaders in Congress a pass for what they constructed as the finale. Trust me… scum crosses the aisles. And in this case, it’s everywhere. I say if you want to know who is the most to blame for this mess to begin with, and for this crap masquerading as the cure, have a good look at our career bozos in Congress.
~~~
Larry, I’ll give credit to Harry Reid when I see something he deserves credit for. In this case, I did state that there were some cajones in the Senate afterall. But I have to know the reasons many voted no. And I’ll bet dollars to donuts that Harry Reid is just fine with giving the auto czar the power to dictate production and price.
INRE the Toyota firms losing money…. it’s a byproduct of the credit restrictions and the economy. Keep production levels up pre-economic credit crunch, and you end up with too many cars sitting on the lots. It is not because they are not streamlined for profit in P&L measures. One might also consider the increased suppliers costs for the first half of the year, which would increase suppliers’ costs to the manufacturers. In normal times, they would have just upped the price of the cars, but that couldn’t be done. That’s an extra dent in the P&L.
However this should be interesting to see if Congress… who believes the big three aren’t producing cars that Americans want to buy… notices that a company that is the front runner in hybrids (what Congress *thinks* Americans want to buy…) is losing money. Despite building those cars.
I’m certainly not above admitting that I made a mistake, but, as the “ignorant [person]” referred to in post # 27, I’m sufficiently ignorant that I still don’t understand Norseman’s point. Maybe one of you can explain it at the level a poor, ignorant Democrat can understand. Taking it literally, there is a rule that, if you vote to cut off debate in the Senate and you lose the vote, then that means that you, personally, can’t bring the issue back for another vote? I didn’t know that.
I’ll make cider, if you’ll stipulate that it can at least be hard cider.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach
Craig
16 years ago
“If you don’t support the bail out and you want to see GM competitive with Toyota, I presume that you also support a comprehensive national health care system for the US.” (Larry W.)
No I don’t. But I would have supported McCain ‘s plan to give tax cuts (5,000$) to people so they could get a personal insurance health plan. It is ridiculous to let it thru the employer. What happen when you change jobs?
Steve Rowland
16 years ago
Craig: I supported McCain and would have liked that $5,000.00…..my insurance is $10,800/yr with Kaiser.
I also read somewhere that Reid had changed his YES vote to NO just so he would have that option.
In the course of that reading I discovered that quite a few on your side of the aisle are a bit ticked off that Biden and Kerry couldn’t be bothered to show up and vote.
Let me know when the cider is ready.
Craig
16 years ago
“Craig: I supported McCain and would have liked that $5,000.00…..my insurance is $10,800/yr with Kaiser.” (Steve Rowland)
That means that with McCain it would have only being 5,800$, very good deal in fact. Plus, with McCain you would have been able to shop for the best deal in every States. Here go look and try to shop somehere else to get a better price in different States. Everybody would have won with McCain’s deal:
What I heard on NPR this AM is that the GOP and conservative Democrats would be willing to support the bridge loan bill in return for the unions agreeing to accept wage reductions. The UAW refused; so the bill didn’t pass.
I’m in favor of the GOP/conservative Democrat position on this, which is eminently sensible and fair, given current economic conditions.
P.S. Mike: You said that you were proud of South Carolina’s DeMint. Are you also proud of Democratic Majority Leader, Harry Reid, who also voted against the bridge loans?
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
I believe Bush is advising Paulson to use TARP to fund bridge loans for the Auto Industry. Now they’ll get to have the money with no strings attached. Good work DeMint.
TARP (the Financial Banks and Lending institutions’ Bail-Out) as a funding source for the auto makers would defy the TARP fund, which was set up with the explicit mandate (meaning NO other legal use is possible) of helping troubled banks and financial services companies. Or, are we witnessing ENRON type behavior on the part of the Federal Government and Bush Administration.
Note also that the Bush Administration is plotting to use TARP, circumventing TARP’s limitations, by having (non-financially troubled) banks provide loans to automakers. Talk about an illegal side-ways scheme. Is this akin to racketeering at the federal level? Don’t they have to follow the law? – TARP is for “troubled” financial institutions ONLY! I smell a rat. Everybody, get your tape recorders out and record what government officials are plotting for evidence at trial.
The UAW Prez “News Conference” was on every major network this morning. Could not avoid it while trying to eat my breakfast. I have nothing against unions per se. But, this fellow was cringe worthy. After listening to him, I got a sense that he was just a puppet. Who is pulling this guys strings?
I watched Corker get reamed on MSCNBC Norah O’Donnell. She had less command of the situation and facts than the average tree stump. She kept trying to lay this at the feet of the GOP OR his lobbying on behalf of the non GM (ie FOREIGN) automakers in Tennessee.
As far as Paulson and Bush using TARP money, I have to once again say these folks simply do not listen to the tax payers who are simply fed the h___ up.
Larry: You might have noticed that I am proud of the leadership role Senator DeMint has played on this issue.
I haven’t noticed the Majority LEADER doing much leading in regard to the matter. Have you?
ENRON couldn’t pull the handle and get a Jackpot like the Financials & Automakers did.
Expect any accountability? Nope. What happens in DC or Vegas stays there!
The TARP Funds demand no accountability whatsoever!
The rape, pillage & plunder of the Treasury continues. I give to Charities of my choosing and voluntarily. These are not Charities, nor of my choosing, nor is it voluntary on my part. None of this cash will be repaid to the US Taxpayer in my lifetime!
The KEY words here are: “GM had its best sales year ever in 2007. It sold over 9 million cars around the world — the same number as Toyota. But Toyota made $20 billion, and GM lost $40 billion.”
It is clear that the problem has to do with unions who have become sort of a Maffia.
Here is a great video done by TVO a Canadian Ontario television program: The agenda with Steve Paikin. They are comparing the New deal with the Old deal in times of Roosevelt and Hoover. On the panel is Russ Robert, David Kennedy, Eric Lascelles Leo Ohanion and Joe Martin.
The video is 35 minutes long, but you sure do get a clear idea from all angles. It is a MUST.
Revisiting the new deal
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=41
Just go on that link and click on the video: Revisiting the new deal ( It was aired last night, 12/10/2008). Lots of insights in this video.
Perhaps there are some cajones left in the Senate afterall… certainly not enuf of them in the House.
The best reason for busting this deal was… assuming it held the same language.. that Congress has no business stealth nationalizing the auto industry. It is Marxism without taking formal ownership title. If they can dictate what car models to make, and the price they are to be sold, thru the “auto Czar”, there is no private ownership to speak of.
Is this the new model of socialized industries? Just take control of marketing and production, but leave the title in the names of the owners and shareholders? Not any company of mine. I’ll take belly up, thank you.
Mata,
We are allowing car companies from other countries to assemble and sell cars in this country while they are backed by their governments. Why not back the auto industry in our country that supports OUR workers? Or should we send the foreign car companies packing and let them sell their products in the own countries? Better yet go back to adding on a tariff. The playing field is simply not the same when other governments are backing their countries auto industries when we do not.
Mike you can be proud of Senator DeMint and his so called leadership. I surely am not. He needs to get voted OUT next election!
Certified Real American Patriot (C.R.A.P.): Since all those car companies from overseas are making money and the big three are losing it perhaps we should let the foreign entities which control those companies take over ours as well?
Sky/RAP, I’ll be danged if I can discern a point in your apples to kumquats comment, guy. Honda, Toyota… none of these are owned by the government and are private enterprises/shareholder controlled…. which is not majority govt owned shares. Try checking out the company profiles of the most well known foreign auto makers with factories here… Honda, Toyota and BMW.
And least ye interpret my point that it is stealth Marxism as extreme right wing, I might point out an article just a couple of days ago in the IHT by David Sanger that echos my opinion.
A cure? Nope. Pandora’s box… And the US seizing operational control of a free market enterprise *should* scare the begeezus out of you.
mataharley,
Yeah they will call them “Patriot Cars”, “Real American SUV’s”, and the new line will only come in Red, White and Blue.
lol.
Real American Hater, if you are interested in getting some education, here is a good article for you:
Why Nationalization Damages Liberty and Prosperity
http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/12/07/why-nationalization-damages-liberty-and-prosperity/
Excerpts:
“Many progressives are looking forward to increased government oversight over the auto industry. They see this as a chance to influence the types of vehicles that are produced and to dictate that production be turned to socially beneficial uses, including the manufacture of green cars that auto manufacturers are not manufacturing.”
“…This is incorrect. Rather, the progressives who support nationalization are being very short-sighted and are threatening to return society back to feudalism and are threatening to destroy the development of new technologies, technologies that will be vital to improving our standard of living while reducing the amount of pollution and natural resources needed to maintain such comfort. This not hyperbole but rather simple fact.”
“…The problem, which has plagued all fascist and socialist economies throughout history, is that nationalization destroys the ability of the economy to rationally allocate capital goods and invest in the future. It is this incapability that is behind the phenomenon where communist countries seem to become mired in the past with stagnant technology, bare shelves in shops and factories that routinely fail to meet production quotas.”
Yeah screw Detroit Let’s all buy Jap cars. And in 2010 the first Chinese cars will be rolling in (assembled in Mexico so under NAFTA they can come in duty free) This will help us into the new world order with our overlords the Asians. In the USA the labor cost difference in a car made by the big 3 and by a foreign country owned brand is about 1200 dollars. The reason that people buy the foreign badged cars is not that 1200 dollars it is the design/engineering. It only takes about 30 total man hours to assemble a car regardless of whether its a Ford or a Toyota http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_labor_cost_to_build_a_new_car
My my my… John Ryan bashing Asians and Mexicans.
Can you spell RACIST XENOPHOBE John Ryan?
Mike,
Can you pull out my #59 post who is stuck in spam on your other thread: Obama not guilty? It is being sitting there for about 2 hours. Thanks
Something I just don’t understand, and would like it explained to me. Why are the CEO’s of the big three so eager to keep the union intact. They have the opportunity to get wages and a lode of other things under control, but don’t seem to want to, is there collusion here, and if so, why. The Co. are paying more people not to work than to work.
Craig: I don’t always check the spam filters even if I am commenting on a particular post. The spam filter is on a separate page that I don’t see unless I go there.
Mata, Mike and Craig,
Toyota is denying it but the Japanese government paid for 100 percent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.
This is according to an ex employee who is now vice chairman and president of Chrysler.
Many foreign government back up their auto industries… we need to do the same..
I believe in FAIR trade not free trade. And if you had lost your job because of foreign labor like I have you’d probably feel the same way.
Fine CRAP… Let Japan bail out the United Auto Workers Union. Or how about we sell GM Ford and Chrysler to the Japanese?
We’re not talking about batteries and hybrid cars here are we?????
Get serious!
This has nothing to do with the product, but the costs associated with producing it. Each car manufactured by the big three costs an average of $2,000 more than a similar car manufactured in the United States by one of the others.
And those costs are entirely due to union greed.
Mike’s America, what about the $3 Billion in tax breaks given to foreign car manufacturers?
We get fleeced in every direction we turn. We let this government DOUBLE the national debt in the past 8 years… who is going to pay that bill? $700 Billion blank check to Bush/Paulson to give out to Wall Street Banks, oh, and whoever they want to. Why not mandate that the workers on Wall Street cannot make more than the average American… why should we be subsidizing bankers pay?
I guess we should just outsource all manufacturing, we can all work in Walmart and McDonalds.
Blast, I’m against the bailout, but let’s be fair. While the Reps spent like drunken sailors, when the dems took over they spent like sailors on PCP. Yes, Bush should have done more veto wise, but it is what it is. We also have that whole war thing going on. It tends to increase spending too.
As for other car manufacturers are you saying we shouldn’t give tax breaks to foreign car manufacturers? They could have put the plants in Mexico if they wanted to. Then we get NOTHING from their productivity.
Crap and Blast don’t understand economics, Hard Right. That is their problem. They are FOR nationalization, bailout, protectionism and they are AGAINST tax cuts for the companies and against free trade and globalization. They just don’t understand. I gave them a good article to read (# 14) but clearly they didn’t read it. I give them a good video to watch (#8), but 35 minutes of concentration was probably to hard for them to watch. They don’t want to know, they just want to keep believing what they do already falsely believe.
Craig says:
It’s an odious comparison. GM spends way more on health care than it spends on steel. Toyota’s own domestic employees benefit from government provided health care. If you don’t support the bail out and you want to see GM competitive with Toyota, I presume that you also support a comprehensive national health care system for the US.
Toyota America is now losing money, as well:
http://news.smh.com.au/business/toyota-to-post-first-n-american-loss-20081024-57ze.html
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Just once, I’d love to see you guys catching a prominent Democrat in the process of doing something right and give him/her a little credit for it. The Senate majority leader cannot realistically assume a leadership role in trying to get many of his caucus to commit political suicide. It’s like a single lieutenant charging to do battle with an enemy army, without the possiblity of being followed by more than one or two of his own. A wise platoon leader leads the battles he can win and a wise political leader does the same. It’s remarkable enough that the much hated liberal Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid joined with the Republicans on this one. Don’t you think that this is deserving of at least grudging respect and recognition?
P.S. Who’da thunk the President would be so pro-union?
http://www.boston.com/business/markets/articles/2008/12/13/bush_vows_to_avert_auto_industry_failure/
Here’s a very good analysis of the politics of what’s really going on:
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/dec2008/bw20081212_127244.htm
With regard to DeMint, one could make the same parochial criticism. DeMint’s leadership may be seen not entirely as principled stand for conservative issues, but also as protectionism for South Carolina’s own foreign-owned (BMW) and South Carolina taxpayer-subsidized auto industry.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Just how ignorant are you people?
Senator Reid voted against cloture for procedural reasons. Had he voted “Aye”, he could not raise the issue again.
@blast:
Blast, your comment:
“what about the $3 Billion in tax breaks given to foreign car manufacturers?”
is a red herring thrown out by the auto union and the democrats. What they don’t mention is that over the years American auto companies have racked up as much or more in tax breaks from states to revamp plants or or relocate to their states. I’ll use Chrysler as an example because I have family members employed there.
Here we have Chrysler taking in $114 million in one year from Illinois and Missouri:
http://www.slcec.com/Media/Media_News_2005.html
When they built the Chrysler in IL a few years later PPG built a paint plant and a glass company built a plant across the street from Chrysler. We not only benefitted from Chrysler, we benefitted from the two additional plants, local companies that made parts and supplies also were able to increase their work force. Then the union gets involved and insists that all suppliers are union shops or they strike.
Another example is the foreign auto plant in Texas that only employed 800 but brought 5000 additional jobs into the community.
My comment is stuck in the filter. P&T.
Back up there, Sky/RAP. You’re still talking apples and kumquats here.
First of all you say Toyota denies the govt subsidies, and it’s only one guy – now at Chrysler – who insists it is true. So I’d say we haven’t got a clue if what you represent is fact.
But for grins and giggles, let’s say it is. There is a vast difference between govt subsidies of retooling (which we’ve already done for the big three) … and having an auto czar dictate to the company just what cars they will manufacture, and how much they will cost.
There is no proof – not even a hint of a suggestion – that the Japanese govt has the micro management power over Toyota or Honda, nor Germany over BMW, that this Congress is demanding here.
And you’re not the lone ranger with jobs disappearing to more profit friendly countries. Even the sound industry for film/TV had this problem back in the middle 90s. Our “outsourcing” came from many places because the unions had driven up the costs for post production. And yes… I was a union editor. After spending big bucks on the preproduction, the cast, the production and then the editing, they were looking to pinch pennies on sound and dubbing stage… the last step before duplication and distribution to theatres.
So they used small non-union houses with inexperienced personnel who worked cheap… or instead took it to Canada. I saw the writing on the wall back then, and got out early. Now most of the sound houses have been absorbed as a “department” in a larger service facility in order to package the costs and be more competitive.
So do I place a good deal of business costs on unions? Yes… right along with OSHA and the EPA. Heavy government regs and union contract demands make it very difficult for American companies to compete. It’s the same old rule… you have to spend less than you rake in. And the big three haven’t been doing this for quite some time.
@Norseman: Good point!
Thanks for the reminder.
Guess Reid’s vote wasn’t so principled after all.
How about them apples Larry?
Gonna make cider?
blast, INRE your comment:
Last I checked, only Congress could write legislation, and hand out the cash… and a POTUS could only say yes or no. Yes, I’m seething at Bush’s Bernanke/Paulson pick, and what they have constructed as a “cure”. But remember that Paulson started with a three page skeleton draft on the Wall Street bailout, and Congress…cheerleading done by 100% of the Dems and way too many GOPers to make me comfortable… turned it into the 600+ page piece’o’sheeeeet that it is today.
So frankly, I take exception to you passing this off totally on Bush/Paulson’s shoulders, and giving the DNC led cheerleaders in Congress a pass for what they constructed as the finale. Trust me… scum crosses the aisles. And in this case, it’s everywhere. I say if you want to know who is the most to blame for this mess to begin with, and for this crap masquerading as the cure, have a good look at our career bozos in Congress.
Larry, I’ll give credit to Harry Reid when I see something he deserves credit for. In this case, I did state that there were some cajones in the Senate afterall. But I have to know the reasons many voted no. And I’ll bet dollars to donuts that Harry Reid is just fine with giving the auto czar the power to dictate production and price.
INRE the Toyota firms losing money…. it’s a byproduct of the credit restrictions and the economy. Keep production levels up pre-economic credit crunch, and you end up with too many cars sitting on the lots. It is not because they are not streamlined for profit in P&L measures. One might also consider the increased suppliers costs for the first half of the year, which would increase suppliers’ costs to the manufacturers. In normal times, they would have just upped the price of the cars, but that couldn’t be done. That’s an extra dent in the P&L.
However this should be interesting to see if Congress… who believes the big three aren’t producing cars that Americans want to buy… notices that a company that is the front runner in hybrids (what Congress *thinks* Americans want to buy…) is losing money. Despite building those cars.
I’m certainly not above admitting that I made a mistake, but, as the “ignorant [person]” referred to in post # 27, I’m sufficiently ignorant that I still don’t understand Norseman’s point. Maybe one of you can explain it at the level a poor, ignorant Democrat can understand. Taking it literally, there is a rule that, if you vote to cut off debate in the Senate and you lose the vote, then that means that you, personally, can’t bring the issue back for another vote? I didn’t know that.
I’ll make cider, if you’ll stipulate that it can at least be hard cider.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach
“If you don’t support the bail out and you want to see GM competitive with Toyota, I presume that you also support a comprehensive national health care system for the US.” (Larry W.)
No I don’t. But I would have supported McCain ‘s plan to give tax cuts (5,000$) to people so they could get a personal insurance health plan. It is ridiculous to let it thru the employer. What happen when you change jobs?
Craig: I supported McCain and would have liked that $5,000.00…..my insurance is $10,800/yr with Kaiser.
Larry: It’s Rule XIII:
http://rules.senate.gov/senaterules/rule13.php
I also read somewhere that Reid had changed his YES vote to NO just so he would have that option.
In the course of that reading I discovered that quite a few on your side of the aisle are a bit ticked off that Biden and Kerry couldn’t be bothered to show up and vote.
Let me know when the cider is ready.
“Craig: I supported McCain and would have liked that $5,000.00…..my insurance is $10,800/yr with Kaiser.” (Steve Rowland)
That means that with McCain it would have only being 5,800$, very good deal in fact. Plus, with McCain you would have been able to shop for the best deal in every States. Here go look and try to shop somehere else to get a better price in different States. Everybody would have won with McCain’s deal:
Craig, I’m positive you are right about CRAP. Blast mayyet see the light, but we shall see.