Reminiscent of Alaska’s infamous bridge to nowhere, Congress stands poised to repeat their spending folly with wind and solar farms… with no transmission lines to urban service areas, and inadequate capacitance needs.
Pelosi, Al Gore, and an army of DNC gullible, are hell bent on forcing the nation to create, in essence, and new national power grid in an unrealistic time frame. And if refusing to allow the oil and gas industry to increase supply vs demand (by allowing additional exploration, leases and drilling) and instead keep gas prices high, they can force a desperate nation into compliance for the impossible. That will be fine with them…. damned be the consequences.
Only one problem… installing the solar panels in the SW deserts, and the wind farms in T-Boone Pickens’ “greatest wind energy potential in the world” – the Great Plains in flyover America – doesn’t get that energy from point A to point Z.
Al Gore’s challenge to be totally weaned off a petroleum or coal based power grid in 10 years is lofty in ideals, but more soaring in rhetoric… nay, BS… than all Obama speeches combined. As Kevin Bullis pointed out in his Technology Review article, “Al Gore’s Inconvenient Plan”,
But in 2006, the most recent year with complete figures, four billion megawatt-hours of electricity were produced in the United States. Eventually, wind, solar, and geothermal power could cover this. But right now, they account for a little more than 1 percent of the total. Going from 1 to 100 percent will require not only building the wind turbines and solar panels and steam turbines for harvesting geothermal energy: it will also require massive new transmission infrastructure for distributing this power, from the deserts or windy plains, where much of this energy can be found, to the coasts, where people actually live. And it will require massive amounts of energy storage, since solar power doesn’t work well at night, and wind power is erratic.
In light of this scale, even some truly ambitious schemes seem like a drop in the bucket. Over the past couple of weeks, T. Boone Pickens, an oil tycoon, has been using some of his billions to run television ads supporting his personal energy plan for the United States. Part of that plan is his project to build what seems to be the biggest wind farm in the country. It would nearly double the amount of wind produced in the state of Texas, the state with by far the most wind power. But that project will only produce 4,000 megawatts of power. (Total electricity generating capacity in the United States is about 1 million megawatts.) And it won’t be cheap. To cover transmission-line costs alone for that and other proposed wind projects, the state of Texas plans to spend about $5 billion.
Needless to say, I’m sure we all realize who will be paying for these new transmission lines. Texans, yes.. and every other state that benefits from these new power grids. But the rest of us will also feel the costs with subsidies and tax credits – revenue lost from the federal piggy banks that Congress will want refilled from taxpayers elsewhere.
Right when you think the “save the planet” types were going to walk hand in hand with DNC leadership into a pollution free sunset, the next predictable battle rolls around. It seems alternative energy isn’t going to please the “greens” either.
So it comes as no surprise to read WSJ’s Review and Outlook piece today, Wind Jammers, which points out not only the obvious transmission problems… but the development of such being thwarted by the enviros themselves.
Only last week, Duke Energy and American Electric Power announced a $1 billion joint venture to build a mere 240 miles of transmission line in Indiana necessary to accommodate new wind farms. Yet the utilities don’t expect to be able to complete the lines for six long years — until 2014, at the earliest, because of the time necessary to obtain regulatory approval and rights-of-way, plus the obligatory lawsuits.
In California, hundreds turned out at the end of July to protest a connection between the solar and geothermal fields of the Imperial Valley to Los Angeles and Orange County. The environmental class is likewise lobbying state commissioners to kill a 150-mile link between San Diego and solar panels because it would entail a 20-mile jaunt through Anza-Borrego state park.
“It’s kind of schizophrenic behavior,” Arnold Schwarzenegger said recently. “They say that we want renewable energy, but we don’t want you to put it anywhere.”
The Guvenator is only now learning of the NIMBY problem? Where was he when, then Governor, Mitt Romney and Ted Kennedy strolled arm in arm to kill the Nantucket wind farm because it would decrease property values?
It doesn’t surprise me that my own backyard is doing the same… despite all our snippy nosed enviromentalists and being home to ELF.
Wind power has also become contentious in oh-so-green Oregon, once people realized that transmission lines would cut through forests. Transmissions lines from a wind project on the Nevada-Idaho border are clogged because of possible effects on the greater sage grouse.
Similar melodramas are playing out in Arizona, the Dakotas, the Carolinas, Tennessee, West Virginia, northern Maine, upstate New York, and elsewhere.
But the enviros may have just met their match… they are now going up against their own power houses… the Al Gores and Nancy Pelosis of the world. And of course, their new darling, former oil man T Boone Pickens.
And why? Money, of course. All are mega-invested in the alternative energy personally. Al Gore’s financial empire spanning the climate change/alternative energy is well known. T-Boone has a pretty good chunk of his own cash in the kitty as well.
Mesa Power, a company Pickens created, is investing about $2 billion in a Texas wind plant that will generate enough electricity to power about 300,000 homes.
He’s also invested some of his $4 billion wealth into efforts to establish natural gas fueling centers in California.
Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, who proposes to get 20 percent of Kansas’ energy from wind by 2020, introduced Pickens in Topeka.
She praised him for his vision and “bold new ideas,” as well as his willingness to put his own money on the line.
Someone ought to let Gov. Sebelius know that T Boone’s a savvy business man… just like Al Gore. He’s not doing this as an act of charity…
Then, of course, there’s Ms. Pelosi… not so unsavvy herself. Last year – well in advance of his current defection from the “big oil” fold publicly – she invested in T Boone’s clean energy corporation, CLNE. From her 2007 House disclosure statement, she purchased stock/assets valued then at $100K-$250K. (see pg 7 of PDF, Clean Energies Fuel Corp)
Estimated values today, per a Yahoo stock item (no longer available on the Yahoo News, but duplicated at DontGoMovement.com,) suggest that Ms. Pelosi may have tripled her investment in just over a year.
UPDATE 8/12/08 2:16 PPM
The initial offering may have been only 22,000 or so shares, but according to a Yahoo news item: Item 8.01. Other Events.On June 19, 2007, the Company issued a press release announcing that the underwriters of the Company’s initial public offering have elected to exercise in full their option to purchase an additional 1,500,000 shares of the Company’s common stock to cover over-allotments. A copy of the press release is attached as Exhibit 99.1 to this report and is incorporated herein by reference.
This means that Pelosi could have purchased around 20,000 shares at $3.86, or $50,000 to $100,000 worth, which are now worth 300% more than their original value.
Nancy Pelosi says that she is trying to save the planet and prevent global warming, but the reality is that, according to disclosure statements, in May 2007 she invested in T. Boone Picken’s clean energy fuels corp., CLNE, which is the sole sponsor of a proposal in California to funnel $5 billion in state funds and $5 billion in Federal funs to this corporation which will indirectly help them create a giant wind farm in the Texas panhandle.
I can’t vouch for that profit structure. Indeed, with the stock world bouncing up an down like an Obama bobble head, I’m sure that story changes daily. But it’s a real winner to get in low, and promises a healthy future for a product in demand… especially when you have investors with the “power of one” – able to guarantee that healthy future with legislation… not to mention the power to keep the US hostage to high gas prices.
But what is perhaps even more amusing a dichotomy is that CLNE is also heavily invested in liquid natural gas – another serious hot button for the enviros… Wonder how the Speaker feels about that.
What with all the rich and powerful, personally divesting themselves in this future energy grid, the enviros are bound to lose their battles and protests eventually. They may slow the process with lawsuits and civil disobedience. But they will, ultimately, lose.
Unfortunately, so will the rest of us. Unless we can keep producing, or increasing production, of what we use today… oil, natural gas, and coal… our transition to alternative fuels over time may just break the bank of the American economy.
“All of the above” is the only sane energy plan when we are at the mercy of an insane and corrupt Congress.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
I believe the window is 15 years. Remember the U.S. is said to have a 12 year supply of oil and if they get the go ahead now the U.S. would be drained in about 15 years. If there is another oil price spike, they U.S. can’t go back to drilling oil that no longer exists.
There is already at companies that deals with hydrogen storage in mass quanities. Where does that come into play? Solar panels can create the electricity used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen (that old high school science experment). The hydrogen is then stored. Then later hydrogen can be pumped into large hydrogen powered fuel cells (they are already made) which creates the power at night. The exhaust from these generators is water, which could be pumped into a tank to be used the next day. There is no moving parts in the whole process and since the hydrogen would be stored for less than a day, leakage wouldn’t be that big of a deal. There are also companies that plan to make home refueling stations for hydrogen run cars using the same process above. Your home could be making hydrogen while you are at work and when you get home you can refuel. If that system costs $20,000, at $4 a gallon at 35 mpg, that’s the equivelent of 175,000 miles of gasoline. Since people drive about 10,000 miles a year on average, if the system lasts 18 years it would pay for itself. If gas prices rise and or your mpg is lower, then it could pay for itself with a shorter lifespan. If it lasts longer, obviously you will be getting free fuel. The launch date for such a system is now, but full scale around 2015.
As far as putting power to the grid, that’s fairly simple. There are power lines everywhere and it’s just a matter of hooking the power to the line. You can even connect your home supplied electricity to the grid and people have already done that with their own homes. Some of their electric meters spin backwards.
Pray tell, Gregory, where is our 12 year supply of oil stashed? Our strategic reserve? You expect our military vehicles to be plug in jets, natural gas carriers, and hydrogen cell armored tanks and humvees?
And what about the oil for our manufacturing, since our biggest exports all require petroleum to produce?
Did you even read these links, Gregory? You think they can just string together a bunch of solar and wind farms in the middle of the desert or great plains, and run a wire to the power line running down the highway?
Do forgive if I take your post as satire…
All this talk about solar panels, wind turbine and electric cars is child’s play. Liberals don’t have the mental capacity to think beyond step 1. We saw this with bio-diesel; touted to be the cure to all evils, it turns out to be a pipe dream. Even green Seattle stopped buying bio-diesel because it was too expensive. Duh. The land can only grow a certain number of crops per year. Crops take time and energy to grow. Hence, a bottle neck in supply and a spike in price. Inflation (something that liberals can’t figure out). Additionally, it takes fuel to run the tractors and harvesters that harvest the corn. It takes fuel to run the semi-trucks and trains to delivery the corn to the processing plant. It takes fuel to run the cranes, the bulldozers, and other construction equipment to build the processing plant. Expensive crude makes expensive diesel which has a multiplicative effect on any processing activity. None of those vehicles have an alternative to crude. There is no such thing as an electric hybrid semi-truck or delivery truck or plane or container ship or harvester. 10 years to get off crude? Please… it’s a childish and stupid statement that ignores reality.
Oh yes…
It’s the cost of alternative energies that makes it a luxury only for the rich… Just how many American’s do you think can afford to layout $20K PLUS the cost of the vehicles (usually two in a family)… and wait out the 18 years or so to break even?
The economic proposal alone is insane. You think the American debt per family is bad now…. geezzus…
Nope… you did mean that entire post as satire, yes?
The poor with a vehical on average is going to spend more than $20,000 in 18 years on gas anyways. Gas engines require oil changes, smog tests and a bunch of other fluids which are added up onto the gas price. There are no moving engine parts on a hydro vehical.
One of the companies making an in-house (literally in this case) solar hydrogen kit is Honda.
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HomeEnergyStation/
Honda already has a hydrogen car.
Here is another company, in this case that will be selling both the in-house hydrogen kit and a gas to hydrogen kit to fit on your gas car.
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
If you will ignore the comments, this article gives an idea how much energy one could gain from an in-house hydro design. This story says about 100 miles a day and even if it’s raining, the general electric outlet out be making the hydrogen.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/01/the_solarpowere.php
As far as the military using liguid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, it’s been there and done that. That’s how people and objects get into space. The U.S. military is already looking at a hybrid humvee that can sneak up on the enemy using electric power (no engine sound). The navy already uses nuclear powered ships.
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=8082
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3158413
http://www.hydrogenforums.org/07Military/pdf/exp4_szymanski.pdf
To get past the spam filter, some links needed some editing. Alther site put the figure at a home system making 100 miles worth of hydrogen a day.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
world.honda.com/FuelCell/HomeEnergyStation/
http://www.hydrogenforums.org/07Military/pdf/exp4_szymanski.pdf
www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=8082
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
Hmmm, as usual Pelosi is full of crap and the tree huggers over simplify.
20% from wind,,, you still have to have back up when the wind doesn’t blow unless you want to sit in the dark.
Pelosi has other reasons to want wind power.
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72225
http://dontgomovement.com/2008/08/11/nancy-pelosi-invests-in-energy-scheme-and-water-grab-by-t-boone-pickens/
If fuel prices stay high she profits.
Well to get the power from point A to point B, the State of Texas has decided to spend 5 Billion bucks getting the right of way by eminent domain and paying for the transmission lines.
Now what will happen is T Boone will also piggy back via the same right of way pipelines for water supplies he has the water rights to up in the same area he is going to build the wind farms on as well as natural gas supplies he has in the same area.
It would have been very hard for him to buy up the right of way on his own but now they are handing it to him on a silver platter.
Also the stories are already out there about how Ms Pelosi is invested in the Pickens companies and stands to profit well off such an outcome.
She might have a little more motivation than ‘saving the earth’ going on here.
Anybody who has been to Denmark might remember it to be one of the world’s biggest proponents of wind power. Landing in Copenhagen, you look out the window and see thousands of windmills.
But they have put a moratorium on new windmills since 2007, when 15-20% of Denmark’s electricity needs were from wind. Why? Because it was playing havoc with their power grid. Elecricity has to be used when produced – there is no industrial-level battery you can charge up and draw a constant current from, like a car battery. The variances from wind generation going up and down drives the power grid managers nuts as they try to vary the supply using other sources. It’s litterally hand-on-throttle every time there is a gust of wind, or if the wind dies down, they have to crank up gas turbine generators (basically big jet engines) to make sure that all the lights in the country start to dim.
All in all, Wind can’t supply more than 10-15% of electric needs without causing serious problems, and the same goes with Solar (what happens when a cloud goes by).
wind farms, solar farms, more nuclear plants, geothermal plants….none of this will make an iota of difference unless the national power grid is upgraded first.
What happens when a cloud goes by or the wind doesn’t blow? Well, it’s always blowing someplace, and other than night time…there’s almost never clouds all over the US at the same time. Variances were mentioned. If renewable generators (solar, wind, etc) are dispersed, then the variances are limited and balance out, but if (like in Denmark) they’re all focused in one spot (see also the plan to build a wind farm off the coast of Cleveland), then the variances are extreme. It has to be that for every farm off the north coast, there’s another in the Texas wind channel, and another off the coast of Martha’s Vineyard. The more locations=the less variance.
Me, I put my hope in HHO
You miss the economic point of this post, Gregory. As I pointed out in the last paragraph, forcing the nation to pay for this stuff via increased taxes, and making the power and vehicles more expensive, can break the bank.
Take your thought patterns above… Okay. I own a grocery store. If you average $100 a week for groceries, you’re going to spend $20K over the next 3.8 years in groceries anyway. Pay me your $20K now, in advance, so you don’t have to pay at the check out line. Just dip into your bank account and write a check.
Oh, don’t have it? Well, that’s the only way to get the “groceries” (i.e. the car….). Guess you’ll have to charge it on a credit plan, and end up paying even more for the interest you’ll be charged.
Let’s see… the Toyota hybrids are around the $30K mark. Will a hydrogen car be any less expensive? Let’s say not. Not for quite some time anyway. A 60 mo payment plan, if you can put $5K down at a 7% auto loan rate is $495 monthly. The $20K hydrogen installation you mentioned? Let’s say you can get that at 7% too, and a 10 year plan for $232 month. That’s $727 a month expense, on top of housing, food, other utilities etc, that you think the avg American can take on without batting an eye.
And why… to save the price of 23.8 gal of gas a month? (your 10K miles annually, at 35 mpg) At $4 a gal, that’s $95 in fuel a month. At $8 a gal, it’s $190 in fuel a month. And they pay as they use it… not for years in advance.
Needless to say, the average American family can absorb $95 to $190 extra expense a month far more easily than they can $727 a month. And that’s if they can even absorb the former after the tax hikes to pay for this new power grid.
I’ve had many seek to install solar on their roofs for energy savings. At the cost of the panels, and based on what they’d save monthly, it would take 12-15 years to pay for the installation. And that’s assuming no maintenance or repairs. Most have found they could not justify that expense just to be “green”.
Yet if solar panels were more cost effective, people would be installing them on individual buildings left and right, thereby relieving considerable load on the existing grid… which would be probably a wiser way to go than restructuring the grid.
Your economic analysis is a death knell for ordinary Americans, Gregory.
How about increasing our investment in public transportation?
May stave off ‘a death knell for ordinary Americans’.
The day of the one car, lone occupant 25 mile (one way) commute & Mom/Housedad chauffering young’uns all around town is coming to an end.
Let’s get ready.
Offshore drilling won’t save this lifestyle.
And think of the upside.
No more anti-cruising ordinances. That should appeal to the libertarians around here.
First off, Dreadnought #9 is exactly correct. We had that problem here in Oregon not long ago when our hydro power really took a rush, and they almost had a grid crash from the surge of both water and wind. The “hand on the throttle” is an apt description. And stable, steady capacitance is still not a reality. Frankly, the one who creates the way to store the power generated from these sources will be the real winner.
There is a small bit of logic in AS’s suggestion of public transportation… however self-absorbed and tunnel visioned it is.
Time has the density of US population via a map. To big to put here, but view Time’s interactive version. You will see that the individual cities quite vary in size, and are very wide spread. Individually, some are well laid out for public transport, others not.
I’ve used BART in N. Cal, the NYC subway, and Wash DC’s bus transport systems with some regularity in my past, and all are efficient alternatives…. under certain circumstances. i.e. if you have regular shifts and hours, and at what time of the day they are. Certainly night shifts on the subway and BART had security problems. And the night shift bus system in Wash DC was non-existant to the outlying areas. But the costs of running these systems off-peak hours adds tremendously to their cost effectiveness and efficiency. So the theory is not always been successful in practice.
As far as I’m concerned, if the urbanites want to increase their spending on public transport that serves their area, that’s terrific. However the money they use for their trnasportation systems better not be federal funds. I have no intention of paying for city transportation systems I do not use.
The rest of AS’s statement is, of course, pure anti-American and self-absorbed in design. According to Arthurstone’s dream, we should only live the way he lives as a concrete dweller, and no longer have a choice of lifestyle. Your American, AS, is not American … period. But then again, your Communist/Marxist visions and mentality have never appealed to me. I suspect your urban/utopian socialist dream would be dashed by reality, should you find me as your next door urban neighbor.
Per Gregory’s links and the 100 mi a day bit… this does not work for everyone. In fact, it will make the family auto vacation obsolete. The hydrogen in-house system is also limited to urban sprawl and surburban only. You can’t be putting those hydrogen generations systems in NY highrises, condos, and multi family dwellings. The more dense the building with people and vehicles, the more invalid that in-house hydrogen system becomes.
“How about increasing our investment in public transportation?”
Ha… laughably simplistic. Even in liberal Seattle and San Francisco… liberals don’t take public transportation. Why? Because time is money and they can’t spend it wasting time waiting for a bus stuck in traffic or breaking down or stopping at 20 places before you reach your destination. And by the way, buses use diesel. The repair trucks that are used to fly out to a bus in distress are powered by diesel or gasoline. The tow trucks used to haul stuck buses are powered by diesel. The cranes and bulldozers used to build highways and roads used by buses are powered by diesel or gasoline. The generators used to power arc welders used to build buses and bus infrastructure is powered by petroleum. The construction equipment used to build power lines are powered by petroleum. I can go on and on. Switching to solar panels are not going to eliminate the need for petroleum. Even in “green” europe, with all their “green” energy, they still use petroleum.
On the other hand, Portland has a fantastic public transit system that gets a whole lot of use. They’ve done it right, and that counts for a lot.
That’s all correct. And some bus systems have been converted to biodiesel; more still could be. It wouldn’t eliminate diesel use, but it would cut it back.
Everything is powered by petroleum right up until you make the commitment to power only some things by petroleum.
How about if we start with reducing the need for petroleum?
DW – Yeah… why don’t we start reducing? How about you start. People still drive in Portland and isn’t Oregon going bankrupt? Nuff said.
Actually we do use public transit & would use it even more if the service were better
And while it’s undoubtedly true petroleum is used to power buses & such I think the key is the consumption per mile per rider. It goes way, way down when we ride the bus/train.
Once again, the drug addled minds of liberals displays itself. They argue that there should be no drilling and that alternative energy is the “solution”, but when their argument is shown for what it is, they say… well… we should reduce, while quietly admitting oil is vital and that technological solutions are decades away, if that. I tell you what… when liberals stop driving limos, SUVs and building mega-mansions a la John Edwards and Al Gore, I’ll start “reducing”. Until then, we should drill to support the gas guzzling habits of Edwards and Gore.
So what is it liberals? Is alternative energy a solution or does it merely reduce? It sounds like your solution is as childish in intellect as most of the other drivel that comes out of the left.
Let’s start with a positive for a change from DeadWeight.
I think you will get no argument from even the strongest opposition here. No one is suggesting we continue full dependence upon oil for electricity and fuel. Alternatives are welcome additions.
However totally ignoring the way our transportation and grid are designed now by refusing to supplement the oil supply while a reasonable and economically feasible transition takes place is the order. The problem is, by thrusting the technology in it’s infant stages, far out of the reach of the average American family, and poor planning of this transition, we’re merely being presented with what is nothing more than a looming financial disaster.
Now, as to Portland… unfortunately you’re wading in the deep end of the pool without your water wings. Trimet and the light rail has been a source of consternation for Portland for as long as I’ve lived in the region. Both light rail and the buses are expensive, the department runs 55% over budget, and environment at both the stops and aboard are crime ridden.
To boot, per the July 2007 Cato analysis of Portland as A City That Doesn’t Work”
As far as useage, it has stagnated and/or declined since 2002. It was the highest useage in 1980 at 2.6%. In the 90s, it fell to 1.8%. The highest it’s been since is still below the 80s, at 2.3%.
2.3% of those using the light rail and bus system translates to less than 1% of the cars of the roads. An embarrasingly poor result considering the taxpayers money sunk into this loser….
The freeway system is deplorable being poor planned, and gridlock is as bad as from Tacoma to Seattle’s gridlock. 1000 Friends of Oregon thought like DW and AS, and thwarted a freeway to run the SW portions of the city east/west. Instead, Portland has become the most expensive housing, highest taxes, and the population is moving out in droves. They complain the school registration is dropping and they are losing revenue. Yet even with less students, they can’t make do with the budget because of administration waste.
For a more accurate handle on how Portlanders feel about the public transit system, start reading in the PDF on pg 5, Myth #1 “Portland Loves Transit”….. NOT!
And BTW, Portland’s planning failures have cost all of you as well, as they did much with federal subsidies.
The auto vacation will become obsolete because of fuel prices anyways. The new word is “staycation.”
The hydrogen could be mounted like a watertower or underground or even as part of the structure itself like planes hold fuel. When gasoline hits $8-$12 a gallon like it is in Europe, the U.S. economy is going to collapse anyways if there isn’t an offsetting energy supply. I’s say in 15-20 years, that’s what gasoline is going to be priced at. By the way Europe recently had negative growth in their economy and are doing staycation themselves. If it’s $8-$12 a gallon in the U.S., it’ll probably be close to $20 per gallon in Europe. The same thing is happening to Japan. At this rate, both regions would be well advanced over the U.S. when the U.S. finally converts over. The U.S. will be buying foreign technology as well as foriegn oil. The U.S. is already 20 years behind on cell phone technology, HDTV technology and even robotics because nobody bothered to invest in the technology till others could do it better and cheaper.
The Cato Institure report : Portland A City that Doesn’t Work’
Thanks Mata.
Always a pleasure to read what that crowd is up to. Of course the geography of cities like Portland and Seattle surrounded by water don’t always provide the ‘let’s build more freeways solution to transportation’ school of planning.
And I feel your pain. Public Transit being one of the major steps of collectivism and all. And riding the bus the nearest to living in the gulag many of us will ever experience.
In Seattle, Metro King County Transit, in it’s advertising, describes bus commuting as “It’s How Lenin Would Get to the Office”.
Ridership is up , up, up.
Now there’s a bright idea for Pacific Rim earthquake areas from San Diego to Portland. Even NYC is built on fault lines. Also another idiotic suggestion for heavily congested Florida cities… where the water table lies feet below the surface and basements are non existent.
The hydrogen center has application for some areas, but is not a universal answer to a large percentage of American’s needs.
Instead, between you and Arthurstone, your idea is we all abandon outlying areas, pile on top of each other in the cities, and remain prisoners in our homes because travel to beautiful parks and attractions in the US will be impossible with the technology, and out of financial reach.
Well, your idea of America in the future blows big time. And you will find that no one will support that vision of the future. We enjoy our freedom to travel, and we will not give it up. Period.
WIND POWER BLOWS!
Boy, does it blow!
And it sucks, too!.
It kills birds
It kills bats
And it’s a boondoggle
If you’re a Leftie, what’s not to love?!
Each of the many, many, many times I’ve ridden Trimet–especially the Maxx–the train has been full and fast. Along about 5:00, the trains are always crowded to capacity.
Yawn’n’suck:
I’m going to deal specifically with one part of one of the links you provided:
I’ve spent a lot of time out at the Pacheco Pass wind farm in California, and one of the things that was surprising was the abundance of wildlife I saw, up to and including coyotes running around in the open during the day. Anecdotal, yes, but so is the quote above.
“The hydrogen could be mounted like a watertower or underground or even as part of the structure itself like planes hold fuel.”
Yes, I understand the Germans pioneered some of that technology back in the middle of last century.
30 seconds is all it took, and “poof” it was gone.
Well, at least there was no oily residue.
Each of the many, many, many times I’ve ridden Trimet–especially the Maxx–the train has been full and fast. Along about 5:00, the trains are always crowded to capacity
“are always crowded to capacity”? This and a dime wouldn’t get you a discarded cup of cold Starbucks coffee.
You live up near Seattle. You are soooo not qualified to speak of their budgeting disaster, poor planning, declining useage statistics, and Portland area residents attitudes towards the transport system. Facts get laid out before you, but it has to be wrong because when *you* rode it “many many” times, it was “crowded to capacity”.
Spare me….
There seems to be a King County problem that the world truths must be as they view thru their eyes and personal experience… facts be damned. Must be something in the drinking water up there.
BTW, more stats for you to ignore.
???
Though I don’t now, until recently I lived in Beaverton–I was most definitely a “Portland area resident.” So bite me, if you don’t mind.
Further, I don’t even live in the same state as Seattle. You seem to have some kind of fetish about that city.
“…one of the things that was surprising was the abundance of wildlife I saw, up to and including coyotes running around in the open during the day…” — DegenerateWitless neo-nazi
Dumb@$$Witless neo-nazi doesn’t know that Coyotes are scavengers? If they were there, and during the day, they were probably looking for the carcases of birds and bats killed in abundance by the wind powered abattoirs.
Then you live in LaLaland, DeadWeight. Who cares where you are. Frankly that there is more space between you and I leaves me jubilant.
Too bad you don’t live in Seattle… I hear their public transport system is miles above Portland’s.
Despite you saying you lived in Beaverton, the facts still remain as above…
1: useage is not increasing.. and has never reached the useage of the 80s.
2: It takes less than 1% of the cars off the road.
3: only 11% of the jobs are in downtown Portland AND only 14% of those few jobs are commuters on MAX.
4: It still only averages only 27 riders per train when the cars hold 64 seats and another 100 standing
5: It still loses money, and diverts funds from the schools
Oh yeah… forgot to add that, on the taxpayers nickel, they’ve ordered new and bigger trains! They’ll hold more of those people that aren’t using it most of the time. Brilliant.
And BTW…did you forget how to spell MAX in the time you “recently” left? Or did you never look at the train with the big ass blue logo all those “many many” times you rode it?
But of course, you believe you must be right because the “many many” times you rode it, it was “crowded to capacity”. Then again, facts and economic details always get in the way of your perceptions.
You don’t even know what a Nazi is, do you, yawn’n’suck? You use the term with no referent, like some twelve-year-old. It sounds cool, though, doesn’t it? And “neo?” That’s even cooler-sounding!
I’m sorry that it hurts your feelings for me to have first-hand anecdotal evidence to put up against your second-hand anecdotal evidence, but can you calm down a little? You’re spraying flecks of spittle all the way over here.
MataHarpy:
Your scare quotes don’t change any of the facts. Give it a rest. I know you look a little stupid because you jumped to a few too many conclusions all in one post, but it’ll be all right; most of the yahoos here a) don’t care if Righty fellow-travelers screw up, and b) are much stupider than you are, so they probably didn’t even notice.
Oh Dim’of’Wit who is just DeadWeight to the rest of the planet…. You embarrass yourself when you confuse “scare quotes” with “facts”. Or perhaps the facts *are* scare quotes to you as they proved you to be the underinformed fool…. always long on opinion, and short on research.
But that’s okay… because most of those you left behind in the city are as dim of wit as you. So they’re the ones getting nailed with all the extra income taxes, and special assessements of the Portland City Council fools. They shall pay dearly for also being short on research.
But Multnomah’s losing single family population daily. They’re running out of those they can tax, so now they’re attacking businesses housed based in other counties that do any sales or business in Multnomah… trying to make up the difference. Rather like selling to a different country.
Ooops… Portland almost IS a different country!
MataHarley typed:
‘Instead, between you and Arthurstone, your idea is we all abandon outlying areas, pile on top of each other in the cities, and remain prisoners in our homes because travel to beautiful parks and attractions in the US will be impossible with the technology, and out of financial reach.’
Live wherever you like.
All I am saying is that the days of cheap gasoline are gone forever and that the suburban lifestyle with lengthy automobile commutes is going to be very expensive. Likewise we can’t build enough roads to handle increased automobile traffic and we can’t accommodate cars at their final destinations anymore anyway. We is full of cars already.
Sean Hannity in a mindbendingly stupid interview with Newt Gingrich (they can’t get enough of the inflated tire thing, tiny minds can’t let go….) mentioned the number $700B as the expense of purchasing petroleum for the US in the most recent year (throw in $10B pe month we spend in Iraq which should go in this column and we get a more accurate picture yet of the cost.)
And it won’t go down.
AS, the only road and parking accommodation shortgage is in the city urban areas. I’m already for a *wise* public transportation system, paid for by the specific cities and state (not fed funds, IMHO). We have no shortage of roads for travel elsewhere, and local smaller communities on the rise take care of that with state funds and increased revenue from migrating populations.
But roads will be unnecessary with making a vehicle the right only of the rich…. talk about a “gap” in classes.
Oh yes… if there is one thing in life you and I can agree on, it’s that Sean Hannity is “mindbendingly stupid”. I cringe when I merely hear his name.
What get me about liberals is that they always ignore CHINA. How about we start to reduce by getting CHINA, the largest producer of CO2 to live up to its international agreements? That “mist” in the air isn’t water. Maybe we should ship all the liberals to CHINA.
ECONO-FACT vs ENVIRO-BULLSPIT
Ouch. Strike three. Obviously, when I refer to scare quotes, I’m referring to your attempt to suggest that I’m lying when I said I lived in Beaverton and regularly rode on a crowded train:
That’s clearly what I’m referring to because a) that’s the function of scare quotes, and b) that’s the only time in the post you use quotation marks–hence the “quotes” part of “scare quotes.”
You need to slow down. You’re so intent on contradicting everything I say that you’re making yourself look like a fool. It has been three times in a row now. Like I said up above, give it a rest.
What the hell point are you trying to make? You don’t even know yourself, do you?
First, the Left doesn’t ignore China.
Second, the Left in America hopes that it would have some success affecting policy in its own country first. Do you seriously not get that?
Hmm a hydrogen tank explosion vs a natural gas line fire/explosion.
http://www.wkyc.com/images/news/020311gasfire.jpg
www2.whdh.com/news/articles/national/BO45905
There are natural gas lines runing throughout the U.S. and along highways. An earthquake will cause those to leak and maybe blow too.
The U.S. already transport 9 million tons of hydogen a year and the general piplines are already running thought 48 states.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/de/pdfs/road_shows/cocoa_hydrogen.pdf
Want to hear something really spooky. Want to know how France get rid of its nuclear waste? It ships it to –Russia. So what happens if there is like a diplomatic spat with Russia like over Georgia? What’s France going to do now?
ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31466
Wrongo, chucko… never did I suggest you were “lying”. I always used your “scare” quotes of “many many” times of riding. Of which you clarified you did specifically say rush hour,. And NEVER did you clarify as daily, but said “many many” times… the quote I used over and over.
As I said previously. I don’t care if you rode MAX every day of your pitiful life at 5:03pm daily for 7 years. You are still clueless to the overview of MAX/Trimet budget and realities.
So I did not “lie”, bozo. Nice try. Drum roll please for the walk on the loser ramp for the dimmest of wit, dead weight to humanity….
On your “scare quotes”… which is, of course, what you describe as my bracketing of your exact words… WTF? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Then again, why would I think you ever do? You lose… being the big L loser you are… every step of the way because it comes down to one thing. You rode the MAX “many many” times at 5pm, and pronounce the system a success based on your observations.
Facts on budget and real riding numbers… when you, the village FA idiot, is not there… are irrelevant to you. They are not, however, irrelevant to the Portlanders you have left behind.
And, BTW, we all thank you for your departure, and send our condolences to the community where you have now landed.
Gregory #40
Well no sheeeeet Sherlock. Had a friend living two blocks from the natural gas line that blew during the 1994 Northridge earthquake. I was further south in the South Bay.
Now, compound the damage from that with multiple multifamily buildings being hydrogen bombs instead of one pipeline breaking in one place. Then, when you compare that with your economical projections for hydrogen in-house systems, and we’ve pretty much rendered your input only slightly above the level of DeadWeight’s.
I’m outta here for now. My patience with this amoebic BS has just run out.
Whoa. Somebody’s overcompensating for her screwups.
Holy toledo. Hydrogen power isn’t nuclear power. When people talk about hydrogen-powered homes, they’re not talking about putting a thermonuclear device in the laundry room. With that kind of crap, you have some real cojones to call other people stupid.
Wait for it: “What I meant when I said ‘hydrogen bombs'” rant/counterattack coming in 3…2…1…
http://www.h2incidents.org/list.asp
Unfortunatley what you city dwellers seem to miss while touting MASS transit is the fact there are many millions of people for whom mass transit isn’t feasable.
In a town of 30,000 or so you simply won’t have a full bus at any time. You don’t have that many people headed to the same place at any given time.
So the amount of people per gallon would be way down.
This is a huge wide open country, anything you buy has been transported by truck or ship, train and truck.
Fine, develop alternatives but be realistic about their applications and realize it will not happen overnight and we much drill here and now to prevent the economic collapse of this country.
Denial and chanting watermelon slogans is fruitless.
A little ethanol teaser for you biofuel idiots..
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/03/12/big_corn_and_ethanol_hoax
One more wind power link,,
http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=304125179413815
DeadWeight, still Dim of Wit #44…. I know you’re intellect challenged, and can’t follow a multifaceted conversation.
But so that you don’t mislead others who may not have read this thread in it’s entirety, I’ll catch them up on the Greg, Yon and Mata comments on the hydrogen storage systems Gregory was suggesting as a solution. Fear not. I don’t expect you to grasp the dangers of installing hydrogen mass storage facilities in multidwelling (i.e. condos, apartments) buildings in areas prone to earthquakes.
Yonason was, of course, speaking of the Hindenberg disaster. A “mass quantity” of hydrogen in the derigible. Since it has the widest explosive range known, and requires the least amount of spark to set it off, it strikes me as risky as a mass storage unit installed in buildings to accommodate multiple owners.
Ignore DeadWeight in this part of the conversation… he’s still glowing from his “many many” MAX rides, crowded to capacity, and evidently can’t handle a few more subjects simultaneously. He’s obviously missed the bus on this one.
BigPapa put it in a nutshell… and is worthy of repeating on it’s own.
I’ve had it with the two trolls. They bring nothing to any debate at this blog, instead all they do is try to get under the skin of other readers. They are now on a timeout for awhile.
ThomasB
RE: bio-diesel
“The land can only grow a certain number of crops per year. Crops take time and energy to grow.”
Don’t forget crop failure, as we had this year due to extensive, and extended, rain in the midwest. Crops already in were seriously damaged, new crops were delayed and their harvest considerably diminished.
And there is also drought. Does anyone recall hearing of the “dust bowl” of the 1930’s?
Other potential problems are disease and insect infestation.
There is no wisdom in relying on such a fragile product for our energy needs. Besides, wasting food in a world that’s hungry is a terrible sin.
The Left’s advocacy of a food to fuel strategy reveals O’Bomber’s “…cruise ships throw more food away in a day…” condemnation of ‘the evil white man’s world’ for the hypocricy that it is.
The food cruise ships throw away is nothing compared to the incredible waste greenies advocate.