George Zimmerman: The Most Likely Scenario

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As I’ve written previously, the changes in statements of W-6 (John), W-12 (wife of w-13) and W-2 (the sister without her contacts who saw, and then didn’t see, two figures chasing each other) are not a big deal.

Now that I’ve listened to all of the witness recordings, and most of them several times, I think the most important witnesses are W-11 and W-20, W-13, and W-6. They heard or saw the most, and were in the best position to discern what was happening. None has the whole story, but each of their accounts mesh and each fills in gaps in the accounts of the others, combining to make a coherent and consistent chronology. [More]

[Here is my latest map with the house numbers removed from witness locations as the parties are arguing that information should not be made public]

Listen to all John’s interviews: He’s positive that Trayvon, the darker complected man with the dark shirt, was on top during the physical struggle, and Zimmerman, the lighter complected man with the red and white shirt, was on the bottom, and that during the struggle, George Zimmerman was trying to get up.

Almost every neighbor verifies hearing John say, “Hey what’s going on” and/or “I’m going to call 911.” This includes W-3 who lives next door to him on one side, and W-11 and 20, who live next door to him on the other side, W-1, one of the two sisters across the way, and W-19, also across the way, who was getting ready to let her dog out.

Look at the daytime photos in the discovery taken the day after the shooting, by Crime Scene Tech Diana Smith. She chose what to photograph, most likely based on what she understood to be the key locations that would either corroborate or refute GZ’s version, as related to the officers who interviewed him the night before and the witness statements obtained the night before.

Her photos include the place GZ said his car was parked, the walk along the top of the T to Retreat View Circle and back, the front and back of 2861 Retreat View Circle, the back, side and front of 1211 Twin Trees Lane, the place the body was located behind 1221 Twin Trees Lane, and the view down “the T” towards the house Trayvon was staying.

The witnesses whose homes had shared backyards on the T between Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees Lane, and who lived at the top of the T, all first heard unidentifiable noises, then fighting type sounds, then yells for help, and then the shot. They all say the noises grew louder and fighting more apparent as they came down the T where they ended up behind 1221 Twin Trees Lane in John’s backyard.

No one saw the beginning of the confrontation or struggle. But witnesses heard the onset. W-11 and W-20, who live in the house at the corner of the T and Twin Trees Lane had windows on both the T side and the backyard side, as did W-13 and W-12. W-11 and 20 heard what sounded a scuffle coming from the Northwest, which would be right on the sidewalk leading back to GZ’s car, just west of the T. They then heard the sounds come around to the back, as if they turned a corner onto the T, behind their closed-in porch. The sounds grew louder and W-20 heard “help” — maybe 20 times. They called 911 and stayed upstairs. They heard their neighbor, W-6, call out ask what’s going on and saying he was calling 911.

Officer Serino says on page 5 of his 13 page report dated March 13, that he listened to W-11’s 911 call and heard “help” 14 times in 38 seconds before the shot.

[snip]

Why Zimmerman reported Trayvon to the non-emergency number is a red herring. It doesn’t matter if he profiled him or unfairly suspected him of criminal activity. It doesn’t matter that he was a crime warrior. He didn’t break the law. His neighborhood watch program, set up with the assistance of the police, instructed residents to report suspicious activity. That’s what he did. He wasn’t on watch that night, he had a concealed weapons permit, and it wasn’t a crime to get out of his car to see where Trayvon had run off to, so he could tell the police when they got there.

All that matters legally is whether Trayvon Martin’s physical attack on him caused him to reasonably fear serious bodily injury. Zimmerman’s testimony, which is supported by proof of his injuries and witnesses observing the struggle, is that Martin broke his nose and banged his head against cement. He tried to get up and couldn’t. Using an objective standard, a reasonable person in that situation would fear imminent serious bodily injury if he didn’t react with force.

The state is unlikely to prevail in arguing Zimmerman was the aggressor because to be the aggressor, Zimmerman had to contemporaneously provoke the force Martin used against him. Zimmerman’s profiling of Martin and call to the non-emergency number were not contemporaneous with Martin’s attack. Even if the state could convince a judge or jury that Zimmerman was following Martin, rather than walking back to his car, rendering his pursuit a contemporaneous act, it is not an act that provokes Martin’s use of force against him. Demanding someone account for their presence does not provoke the use of force. Even if it could be construed to be provocation for using force, all it means is Zimmerman had to attempt reasonable means to extricate himself before using deadly force in response. W-6’s steadfast insistence that Zimmerman was struggling to get up and out from under Trayvon, right before the shot went off, fulfills that requirement. Zimmerman will say the same. And no witnesses saw anything different.

Zimmerman should prevail on classic self-defense at trial regardless of stand your ground. Raising stand your ground before trial gives him the possibility of a quicker win, and the opportunity to preview the state’s strategy before it gets to a jury.

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@retire05:

Deny that you have said, a number of times, that some on this board were trying to “lynch a black kid.”

Sigh. A straw man argument and yet another lie.

Go ahead cite where I’ve accused anyone of trying to “lynch a black kid.”

I, of course, know exactly what I’ve said. And what I haven’t.

You have more than once insinuated that those that don’t agree with you can be nothing more than black hating bigots.

Bullshit. What I’ve done is shine light on those who have expressed/supported/defended stark and undeniably racist attitudes. How quickly you forget.

And what you also seem to be forgetting is that the existence of the fundraising site(s) and the PayPal account was never an issue of contention.

What was an issue, and where Z and his missus got their asses in a crack , is the amount of money that was available to them as a result of those fundraising efforts. As you may recall from our prior interactions on this issue Z is required by law to be transparent with the Court.

Instead of meeting that transparency obligation, he and his missus got themselves audio taped conniving and concealing what they both knew they were legally obligated to reveal.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mrs. Z charged with perjury over what she did. Even the judge expressed surprise that the SA had not filed charges against her.

Zimmerman has proven himself to be a liar over and over again since the beginning of this whole thing. The SA has clearly stated that Z has made multiple conflicting statements.

It amuses me to watch you and your fellow chorus line members continue to cheer and hurrah for a guy who can’t even get his story straight on the most basic of things.

retire05
we have to let other opinion go their way, and not fight it anymore,
I came to realize that I SHOULD NOT FIGHT OTHER FOR THEIR DEDUCTIONS,
BUT CONTINUE TO FIND SOME CLUES FOR PROVING HIS INNOCENCE,
WE MUST NOT WASTE TIME ARGUING WITH OTHER VIEWS, THAT GOES FOR IVAN TOO, THEY OWN THEIR OWN THOUGHTS
WE OWN OUR OWN THOUGHTS, AND WE CANNOT CHANGE OTHERS MIND AS THEY CANNOT CHANGE OUR OWN CONVICTIONS EITHER, THEN IT MAKE IT EASIER TO COMMUNICATE,
RETIRE SPECIALLY WITH YOUR HARD HEAD AND AYE HARD HEAD AND MATA HARD HEAD,
WE ARE ALL IN DANGER OF INSULTING EACH OTHER, AND IT WOULD DEGENERATE INTO A BLOOD BATH, BEFORE WE REACH THE LIBERATION OF ZIMMERMAN,
WE MUST COOL OUR RHETORIC, AND REMEMBER OUR WELL BEHAVE POLITE MANNERS. AMONG EACH OTHER, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER WE ARE WITHIN OUR OWN GROUP.
BYE

@ Mata Harley
As one having been dismissed by this site’s Troll-in -residence, I need to understand why the physical assault initiated by Martin is insufficient as a action, to justify armed response. What evidence from before the confrontation is sufficient to eclipse the physical evidence post- confrontation? GZ’s injuries occurred before the shot was fired. Those injuries would have been hard to deliver if one is holding a 9mm round to the chest. Even more so if the round was designed for personal defense. What can anyone prove conclusively from the actions of both parties prior to the physical confrontation. Both of them had time to have left the vicinity. They did not, their resulting clash and the evidence of that clash supports armed response to a physical assault. Again I am not asking as an adversary, your arguments are always principled and supported. Anything that you can send my way that brings clarity is appreciated.

Brian
yes, I would think it was enough to not even charge a man who has the bloody scars,
showing when the police arrive called from his own cell phone, with a witness to corroborate that he
was on the ground lock under an assailant on top locking him from any escape, yelling for help
repeatedly, in a neighborhood he was watching as an intent to help his neighbors, which let him down when he call for help, it would have taken just one to throw a bucket of water on them two, to break the fight,
which would have keep the attacker alive. while the police was right at minutes away to arrive on the scene,
and who knows they would have probably would have had to shoot him with their own gun to stop him from bashing his head on the concrete, as it shown he would not stop and
said he will kill him clearly. which his intent was unequivocally
was what he was proceeding to do.

@Brian: As one having been dismissed by this site’s Troll-in -residence, I need to understand why the physical assault initiated by Martin is insufficient as a action, to justify armed response. What evidence from before the confrontation is sufficient to eclipse the physical evidence post- confrontation?

First, Brian, it is not known with any certainty that the physical assault was initiated by Martin. Since none of us have read GZs multiple statements, that is what we know based on the media’s 2nd hand reporting of his statements. Even so, I have no doubt that is what will be confirmed when and if we do see his statements. O’Mara is probably going to try and get them to be inadmissible.

But it’s not of paramount importance because of the choice of the State’s charge of 2nd degree murder.

I’ve been thru this before, but I’ll go thru it again with a different approach. The State is going to attempt to prove that GZ committed 2nd degree murder because:

1: Martin is dead (check)

2: That GZ committed a criminal act. That means – using the FL definition as it relates specifically to 2nd degree murder – that he performed a series of events/actions that created the conditions that led to the death. Or, simply put, that GZ continued to pursue, follow, track down, watch… whatever… TM, and those choices created the dangerous condition and ultimate result of the death.

3: That GZ demonstrated a “depraved mind”. Again using the related legal definition, he demonstrated an utter disregard for human life by not recognizing the danger he posed by following TM… while he was armed… and that he’d likely have a confrontation by doing so.

Since those three points – the quintessential elements of a 2nd degree murder charge – are what the State is going to attempt to prove to a jury with their evidence, there is no logical GZ defense in answering those charges by constantly saying to the jury and judge, “but he was pounding my head on the sidewalk, sirs and madams”. It’s not relevant since, if the State can prove the above #2 and #3 beyond all doubt, GZ’s head being pounded wouldn’t have happened at all but for his decisions.

Hence the reason the State went with those charges to begin with. They are putting more focus on the events that led up to the confrontation. Whether that can be done successfully, we will only know after a trial. Or, the jury (or judge), O’Mara may recommend or plea bargain a lower charge if they are somewhat successful during the process.

Therefore, in the legal reality, O’Mara and GZ don’t have to prove, or convince anyone, that GZ’s head was being pounded. What they have to focus on is casting enough reasonable doubt on the State’s evidence that GZ’s actions and decisions were responsible for his head being pounded in the first place.

@retire05:

#1) Now, it is true that George Zimmerman pushed a plain clothed state alcohol officer. He was defending a friend who was being harrassed by the officer. Also, the case was, to my knowledge, dismissed, and if you have any proof that he was put on “probation” for that office, cough it up. When a case is dismissed, your record is expunged.

Well, your knowledge [snicker] is wrong. Again:

[In 2005] Zimmerman was charged with two felonies after allegedly shoving an undercover alcohol control agent trying to arrest his friend for underage drinking at a Virginia bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to a pre-trial diversion program that included anger management classes, according to court testimony.

That’s not in any way similar or even remotely close to the case being “dismissed”.

#2) Link, please and don’t give me some Huffington Post entry.

Here is the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office “Pre-Trial Intake Interview Sheet” which Z signed certifying that the information contained therein was true.

You’ll notice that the “Prior Criminal Record” section which specifically asks about prior arrests, juvenile custody, supervision, or release contains nothing more than one diagonal line thru it.

Yet… Z signed it… certifying that the information (and lack thereof) was “true to the best of [his] knowledge.”

#3) And you are going to tell me that the photos of Trayvon Martin, as he actually looked on the night of the shooting, and not the young teen that still appears on the Martin/Fulton Begging For Money web site, is the photo of a very young teen or even someone who looks barely 17? Are you willing to lie to yourself to that extent?

How old is Trayvon in the photographs below?

trayvon-martin-family-photos-1

120329122036-trayvon-martin-horseba

trayvon-martin-family-photos

Furthermore, Z made representations to the Court via O’Mara that he didn’t possess a current US passport. (See #10 here.)

Turns out, Z had not just one current US passport, but two. One of those passports was given to O’Mara. The second, Z and his wife conspired to keep locked away in a safe deposit box.

MATA
number 2. is that follow, pursue track down, while doing what he was ask by the dispatcher’s questions
create dangerous conditions leading to death, why is it it creating a criminal act, if he was at the service of the people as a protection against crimes which had been multiply previously forcing the citizens to ask for persons to watch their neighborhood,
it tell me that you have to arrest the organizers of the community watch, and the dispatchers asking precise questions of the locality for the police to find the address of the site,
beside do they not give that power to the community watch captain of an immunity of actions to defend his life if threaten with attacks from whoever is in there suspected by the captain?
bye

Bees, the only perception of GZ’s actions being acceptable that matters will be that of a jury after the evidence has been presented at a trial. You can make all the assumptions, explaining away anything you want without seeing or hearing everything the State has collected, as your personal opinion. But unless you are a member of the jury, it’s not relevant.

Neighborhood watch does not provide or sanction for any action other than observing and reporting. Even tho that complex’s Neighborhood Watch was not recognized by the NSA as official, there is nothing in their manual that will give GZ a pass in setting out, on foot, to “observe” TM… and most especially choosing to do that while armed with a weapon… CCW or not. What the manual says specifically on pg 20 is:

It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous.

We only see what the State wants the public to see at this time. They aren’t going to be showing any aces in their poker hand, so only half the evidence they have has been passed on to O’Mara and discovery is coming out slowly. What they have provided, they have done so without any detail as to how that will be inserted into their presentation.

O’Mara doesn’t want discovery coming out too fast without them being able to go thru it in advance. If he thinks some of it is going to damage GZ, he will be filing to stop some of that evidence as inadmissible in court, and make it unavailable to the public. Those things are likely to be GZ’s own statements and any information about his personal life that he considers irrelevant to that night’s events.

The burden of proof is on the State to prove that GZ’s actions and decisions are responsible for the confrontation. If O’Mara has a good defense, they will hope to be able to cast enough doubt on that evidence. Haven’t a clue who will prevail, but it’s no slam/dunk or open/shut case. The only thing I know is what strategy the State is pursuing, based on their choice of charges filed.

MATA
thank you, I believe what you say, and I’m anxious to read more of those infos,
best to you.

@ MataHarley
The state’s charges seem to be an attempt to try the case on actions that cannot be proved either way. If I understand the parts of the 2nd degree charge, the state is trying to remove TM’s actions as factors contributing to the final outcome. Without previously unknown witnesses or new evidence or developments is it probable that GZ’s actions can or will be seen by a jury as calculated, premeditated intent? What the neighborhood watch manual states carries no force of law, I don’t understand why they are cited as if they override legal rights to self defense and licensed carry. Thank you for your clarity. Personally, last night a party or parties unknown drove through my road fence, a pasture fence and rammed a locked gate to escape and avoid prosecution for their actions. They avoided the area around my residence, probably due to the lights and my dogs never alerted. If they had not I would have been within my rights to have fired on them to prevent further damage and trespass. They did leave without their front license plate. I have three state parks in the neighborhood and drinking and drug use is common in the one closest to me.

Have no clue what the jury will see INRE GZ’s actions that night, Brian. As both Corey and O’Mara said, after the mid May evidence dump, there’s a mountain of evidence yet to be released.

Corey, the state attorney in Florida’s Fourth Judicial Circuit Court, was assigned to the case by Florida Gov. Rick Scott nearly a month after the shooting. Corey said this weekend that evidence released so far is not the sum total of her case.

“What the general public has to remember and the media has to remember is that there is a lot we cannot release by law,” Corey said.

Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara apparently agrees with Corey.

“[It is] way too early to tell,” he said. “That’s me not only commenting on evidence, but the weight of all the evidence. And I don’t even have all the evidence.”

It’s the State’s position that they have enough evidence to conclude that GZ “initiated” the confrontation by his actions and choices… ergo, what led up to the fight itself. The public only wants to start the clock from the beginning of the altercation, and ignore what happened before. That’s not the way a 2nd degree murder charge works.

Since the public and media are only in possession of bits and pieces here and there, and not the entirety of what the State has compiled (“the weight of all the evidence”), we don’t know if what they have is enough to convince a jury that GZ is responsible for the confrontation. And in truth, that will be a common sense decision only made by the jury, after they have seen what the State has to present.

Added: the NSA neighborhood watch manual doesn’t “override” CCW rights. However anyone acting as a neighborhood watch is likely to be held culpable if those actions result in a death, and such choices can be considered a reckless act in the eyes of a jury.

Added #2:

Brian: ….is it probable that GZ’s actions can or will be seen by a jury as calculated, premeditated intent?

If the State thought it was calculated and premeditated, they would have come back with 1st degree murder, Brian.

Marcus Luttrell, of Lone Survivor fame has written a new book, Service: A Navy Seal At War. On pages 282-283, Luttrell tells a story of another Navy Seal, and fellow Texan, Chris Kyle, who Luttrell is friends with.

“On a bitterly cold morning in early January 2009, the war, in a sense, found Chris again. What happened to him not far from his home outside Dallas never made the news, since the town involved didn’t want the publicity, but the incident certainly would have made national headlines had a reporter ever gotten a tip about it.

Chris was minding his own business, fueling his pickup truck at a gas station, when he found himself at gunpoint. Two men holding pistols demanded his truck. Law enforcement will ususally advise you to give in to the criminal in a situation like this. And that’s good advise. But Chris took another route. Very calmly and coolly, he sized up which of the men was handling his pistol more comfortably. He put his hands up and told them he was going to reach into the truck to get his keys. Then his hand went under his coat. From a waistband holster, he pulled his Colt 1911. Swinging the pistol under his left armpit, he gave each robber two .45 caliber Hydra-Shock hollow-points to the chest. By the time the cops responded to the 911 all from the terrified lady who had locked herself in a car behind Chris’s truck, the matter was settled. Elapsed time: about ten seconds. The service station’s camera caught the whole thing.

I pray for anyone whose life gets so desparate that he or she chooses to resort to a life of crime, but it’s hard to resist a little cold laughter all the same: I mean, how unlucky a dumbass do you have to be to target a random guy for felony armed assault and find out he’s killed more people than smallpox?”

While the circumstances are somewhat different than the topic of this thread, the point of this is simple; not all those who are shot are victims, and not all those who do the shooting are criminals. Something some on this board would be well served to remember.

retire05
a very good story, and I would think related in some point,
there is a danger I fear for returning soldiers in this kind of GOVERNEMENT mindset,
WHO DON’T SEEM ONLY BUT ARE TAKING SIDE ON THE ONE COLOR THEY ASSUME to be unjustly treated
WHICH ARE NOT IF ONLY BY THEIR OWN, leading some to feel free to commit crimes against other,
so the soldier come back in a COUNTRY HE LEFT FREE WITH LESS CRIME RATE, AND HE IS FOR SOME CONFRONTED WITH THE CRIMINAL, WHICH IS FAIR GAME FOR HIM TO TREAT HIM AS AN ENEMY FROM HIS WAR ZONE, AND EASY TO LIQUIDATE, WHICH IF FALL INTO THE WRONG PLACE BE IT TOWN OR STATES PUT HIS FREE LIFE IN DANGER,
THIS CAME TO MY MIND IN TRYING TO FIND CLUES TO THE ZIMMERMAN CASE,
I thought if HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A MILITARY JUST BACK FROM HIS SERVICE ABROAD ,
WHAT WOULD HE HAVE DONE, AND IT IS SO CLEAR TO THE RESULT OF WHAT CAME TO ME.
AND WHAT WOULD HAVE FOLLOW UNDER THE CASE HERE.
THANK YOU FOR THIS INFO.
I hope the FRAMERS OF THE RULES WRITTEN BY THEM CENTURY PLUS AGO WOULD BE PLEASE AS TO SEE THE RIGHT ENDING FROM THIS CASE, DEMANDING THE WHOLE JUSTICE NOT HALF OF IT.

@Aye:

This idea of a gun that jammed is a completely discredited account that has it’s roots in an honest misunderstanding by a gunsmith who posted on a blog, a person who took one statement from a police report too literally and ran with it. The police report said that the CLIP had seven rounds in it – which would suggest the “next” round did not chamber. This idea is explained away elsewhere in another police report that details the procedure of ejecting the “next” round out of the chamber and making the firearm safe to enter into evidence. The firearm was fully loaded -that’s how and why the police stopped searching when they found the ONE spent casing – the gun would not hold any more rounds and obviously had been fired at least once.

The pistol was ready to fire a second time, and no fingerprints or DNA from TM was found on the handgun.

It would seem odd for GZ to re-holster the weapon if it had an obvious jam… not that this proves or disproves the police reports…. but odd anyway.

In any case, the story from the father is that TM never went for the gun. His tale is that TM somehow became aware of the gun, issued a verbal death threat, and then continued to beat GZ – NOT struggled for the pistol, which is also quite odd. If you knew your antagonist had a gun, would YOU threaten his life BEFORE getting control of the gun and delay even reaching for it to instead continue an assault with your bare hands? It makes no sense, and as they say in court, “it strains credulity,” or, in plainer english is not a credible story. According to the NYT, the investigators found GZ’s tale of the death threat hard to swallow.

Summary: gun did not jam. No fingerprints of DNA from TM on the weapon. TM’s awareness of the gun in serious doubt. Police investigators who walked the scene, questioned GZ and saw his injuries, eyes, demeanor, body language etc felt he was not telling the truth. Now GZ’s back in jail for misleading the judge about his finances and passport whereabouts, and his own lawyer admits he had a credibility problem.

@Mike O’Malley:

It’s simply unclear to me that the dispute over classifying GZ’s statements to the police as “confessions” by the prosecution is a tactic to keep the material from the hands of the press or also a stalling tactic to keep the material from the defense FOR A LIMITED TIME. I realize fully that the prosecution is required to give “discovery” to the defense – they have a 15 day duty to do so, IIRC, but there are motions to seal parts of the material, and Corey herself has said that all the discovery has not yet been released.

Jeralyn at talkleft says “of course MOM has the statements to police by GZ” but we the public have no confirmation of that whatsoever. What GZ told the police is at the heart of this case – either his story matches the witnesses and evidence or it does not. Mark O’Mara has been very careful in his statements thus far and had NEVER said explicitly that his client’s statements will prove his innocence. I don’t have any way of confirming or denying if he has seen what GZ told the cops or not. Neither do I think does anyone else.

The longer time the defense has to go over those statements, the longer time they have to try to prepare to defend whatever “inconsistencies, contradictions, etc” that the prosecution alleges. IANAL but I think that Corey seeks to delay release to the media of these statements PARTIALLY as a way to delay giving full discovery to the defense. Is that ethical? IANAL. Is it even what’s happening? I truly can’t know.

But I know that before trial MOM will have all the statements. He’d a have an open and shut case for dismissal if he did not.

Note that at the last hearing, the judge asked MOM about how he would characterize the statements – as inculpatory or exculpatory and MOM replied – “I haven’t said yet” and the judge said “you will say they are exculpatory.” Once again this doesn’t say if he has seen the statements or not, but it doesn’t confirm he has and seems to suggest that he may not have. It was an odd exchange if MOM has read them already.

@ilovebeeswarzone:

Which side am I on? I’m on the side of people getting a fair trial, and all the facts being established in court.

I have not made up my mind and GZ is innocent until proven guilty. I happen to think the situation was complex and fluid. There are no star witnesses to the beginning of the physical altercation. In cases like this, the living “witness” is the last man standing, and his or her account is important but must be scrutinized carefully because if they are not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth it stands to reason that they have something to hide.

GZ seems to have something to hide, and in my own opinion isn’t telling the whole truth to the court. I don’t think this bodes well for his chances at acquittal. But we don’t know what he said to the police investigators yet, and I’m willing to wait until a trial to see what happens.

By the way, what “sides” are there? I would hope we are all on the side of justice and the truth.

willisnewton
hi,
you make sense yes,
we have to keep in mind why GZ WAS THERE TO BEGIN WITH, THEN WHY WAS HE WALKING TO LOCATE TM, THEN HE IS THE ONE TO CARRY ALL THE ENJURIES, EXCEPT ONE MORE TO TM FROM THE SHOT,
AND IF THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH DNA, MEAN THERE WAS SOME, OTHERWISE THE FORENSIC WOULD
HAVE DECLARE , THERE ARE NO DNA FROM TM ON THE GUN, ECETERA,
WELL MAYBE THERE WAS TM DNA ON THE BACK OF THE HANDS OF GZ , WHY? I’M JUST THINKING OF THIS ONE, MAYBE BECAUSE HE TM WAS TRYING TO TAKE GZ HANDS OFF THE GUN;
HE GZ MIGHT HAVE HAD HIS HANDS OVER THE GUN TO PROTECT HIS GUN FROM BEING TAKEN AND HE LOCKED HIS HANDS OR ONE OF HIS HANDS THIGHT OVER THE GUN,
THEN TELL ME WHY WOULD TM SAY; “YOU’V GOT IT” AS HE WAS UNABLE TO GET THE GUN,
AND REALIZE THE HAND OF GZ HAD ONE FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, THIS IS MY NEW POSSIBLE
STORY.
, BUT MIGHT BE TRUE JUST THE SAME, AGAIN HARD TO PROVE BECAUSE GZ HAD WASH HIS HANDS MANY TIMES SINCE THAN,
BYE

@Mike O’Malley:

There is no admissible-in-court proof that TM used marijuana the evening of the shooting, just as there is no proof that GZ took his prescription uppers and downers or had a beer in the car someone removed from the scene. Yes, toxicology reports that TM had THC in his body, but that could be from a month previous for all we know. So none of this will get much traction in a trial. It’s just something for partisans to speculate about. But on that note, I’d put my money on the adderall user as being the violent one as opposed to the one who smoked weed or even drank cough syrup. That stuff is like fighter pilot speed, government meth, and has aggressiveness as a known side effect. No drug or alcohol tests were made on GZ, so we will never know.

Oddly enough, if you want to go on baselessly speculating about cough syrup and the like, TM had enough time to walk to the wal-mart and then to the clubhouse before encountering GZ. There was a white WalMart bag found at the scene of the killing not far from the tan 7Eleven type bag found on the sidewalk. If he went at 5fps or around 3mph from 7ELeven to the walk mart and then to the clubhouse, he would arrive around 7:09PM. Go figure.

Of course, no codeine was found in his system… so I’m not sure where the stories about “lean” are supposed to be going. Nor do I think they would have sold him codeine at Wal Mart or any other place. He’s a minor who was carrying no ID. I suppose he could have shoplifted it, presuming he could have gotten it out of a locked case. But again, none of this can be established at trial since there is zero proof of it.

Pills and weed don’t pull the trigger or punch someone in the nose. People do. These two individuals are responsible for their own actions, and apparently the substances they choose to put or not put into themselves.

GZ followed an unarmed teen and lost control of the situation while armed. We as a society have’t established the legal responsibility, but ethically and morally he’s already on shaky ground. I fail to see why so many care to make him a poster boy for anything. He seems like a garden variety knucklehead to me, and one that isn’t very credible with the court or even his own lawyer at present.

willisnewton
now you lost control yourself,
I have many WALLMART BAGS, THEY ARE HANDY, SO IT DOESN’T MEAN HE WENT TO WALLMART,
AND GZ did not lost control when he was walking toward to locate the suspect and the address having been ask to and following orders , there was a big enough sign to see by TM,
AND NOT one of us MAKE EITHER ONE A POSTER CHILD,
JUST CONCLUDING THAT AN INNOCENT NOT PERFECT HUMAN DID THE ONLY THING HE COULD TO SAVE HIS LIFE. AS HE HAD TAKEN MANY BLOWS AND PUNCHES AND WAS PREVENTED TO ESCAPE FROM IT LOCKED ON THE GROUND BY A 6/4 TALL 200 POUND ATTACKER,
SO YOU DON’T LIKE HIM,
THERE FOR HE MUST BE GUILTY?

AS OPPOSE TO THE THE other 80 YEAR OLD WHITE MEN VETERAN OF VIETNAM BEING UNABLE TO GET OUT OF AN ATTACK BY 6 YOUNG FROM 13 TO 17 WITH A HAMMER POUNDING ON HIS HEAD WHILE HE TELL THE OTHER 5 TO KILL HIM FOR TRAYVON, AND THE 5 KICK HIM ON HIS BODY LAYING ON THE GROUND, AS ONE BEING TOLD TO LIFT HIS UPPER BODY SO TO GET THE KICK IN THERE EASIER ,
THEN HIDING HIM IN THE WOODS TO DIE UNSEEN, AND FLED WITH HIS CAR.
WHEN A PERSON FROM FAR UP NOTICE IT ALL AND SAVED THE POOR MAN,
HOPE THAT WE HEAR OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE CRIMINALS SOON,
AND NOT COUNTING THE OTHER ASSAULTS ON INNOCENTS WHITE FOR TRAYVON at 20 to two WHITES, AND OTHER AND OTHER, THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING HIM A POSTER CHILD , AI’NT IT?

Bees: AND GZ did not lost control when he was walking toward to locate the suspect and the address having been ask to and following orders , there was a big enough sign to see by TM,

In your passion for Zimmerman, Bees, you’re really wandering off the beaten path of reality. Perhaps you’ve been living this so long, that it’s just grown bigger and bigger in your imagination.

The dispatcher did not ask for Zimmerman to go find an address. He asked “which way” TM was supposedly running. That doesn’t even require leaving a vehicle to answer. When GZ exited his car and went after him, the dispatcher told GZ he didn’t need to do that.

When discussing where to meet the police, GZ rambled on about the location of his car, and the dispatcher finally suggested the mailboxes to make it easier… which GZ nixed as a suggestion.

Even had the dispatcher *really* asked for an address (which didn’t happen), Zimmerman was parked in front of house addresses. He most certainly did not need to travel down a cut thru, where no house numbers would be available.

Additionally he’s lived in the community for two years. There’s only three roads in the entire complex… the loop around the edges that is Retreat View Circle, Twin Trees Lane, where he was parked, and Lone Oaks, the road that runs straight from the southeastern gate entrance. It’s a stretch to believe that GZ didn’t know that, at the other end of the cut thru, was the eastern leg of Retreat View Circle.

Another correction of facts. Now you have inflated Martin’s size to larger than life, saying “HE HAD TAKEN MANY BLOWS AND PUNCHES AND WAS PREVENTED TO ESCAPE FROM IT LOCKED ON THE GROUND BY A 6/4 TALL 200 POUND ATTACKER”.

Bees, the Medical Examiners Report documents that Martin was 71 inches in length – or 5’11” – and 158lbs in weight. On Zimmerman’s MySpace page, he says he’s 5’10”. Police reports did not give a GZ weight, but guessed he was 5’9″. However he was well over 158 lbs that night. Therefore TM wasn’t some giant heavyweight, towering over GZ.

As far as your claim that no one has been making GZ a poster boy, you might want to revisit Ivan’s comments where he often declares that GZ is a hero while, simultaneously, calling the dead teen “an oxygen thief”.

Chris Kyle? He’s a bonafide American hero and the most accomplished sniper on record. He responded to a robbery attempt and gunshots with the equivalent force. He should have walked. Unfortunately, another disabled Marine (Jonathan Lowe), in a State with virtually identical Castle Doctrine and SYG laws as FL, didn’t have as much good luck.

In an example of how the details of self defense can bite one in the butt, Lowe was chased down (i.e. was attempting to retreat) by Loren Manning Jr and two others. Manning – a man with a rap sheet of 40 arrests and 18 convictions – was armed with a metal pipe, chasing and then beating the disabled Marine in a robbery attempt the night of Oct 1st, 2011. Lowe pulled out a knife and stabbed Manning. In that response, he hit a jugular, and Manning died.

Lowe was charged with 1st and 3rd degree murder charges, voluntary manslaughter and possession of an instrument of crime. I guess he waived his rights to a jury trial, as a defendant may opt to do. Perhaps because it sure looks like the perfect example of self defense. But in a two day non jury trial, the judge acquitted him of the murder charges, but did convict him of the lesser voluntary manslaughter and possession charges. The judge’s reasoning was that Lowe’s use of the knife against a metal pipe was an inappropriate response, calling it an “imperfect and unreasonable” self defense.

My emotional response to that bit of justice is that Lowe should have been easily acquitted. But the self defense law has some details that doesn’t always make that emotional assessment entirely possible, and inappropriate responses to situations plays as a factor quite often.

Lowe had remained in jail, without bond, from his arrest in late 2011 to his late May 2012 trial. No one jumped on the fundraising or support bandwagon for him. No parents put a lien on his home to post bond. The community didn’t protest loudly and the media didn’t make a big deal about it. And although Jonathan Lowe was black, the Rev Al didn’t show up to be of aid. He was convicted at the beginning of this month.

Neither Chris Kyle or Jonathan Lowe attempted to confront those they killed. Both of them killed men who were assaulting them while they were in the process of committing a crime. GZ does not fall into the category, or caliber, of either of these men. Nor do his actions mirror the responsibility that these men demonstrated in their respective situations.

I might remind some people on this board… ahem… that sometimes those accused of murder charges are guilty, and sometimes they are found innocent. But if there are enough questions about the defendant’s story and actions that raise doubt, investigations and trials are the way the Founding Fathers set up our process.

No one enjoys the right to bypass that system merely because they have blind devotees in the public arena, making decisions before they have seen or heard all the evidence. And it was embarrassing to see so many who resented the fact the investigation was reopened, or that the results of that investigation actually resulted in charges.

What some might want to ponder is why Corey did not lay multiple charges, giving the jury a menu to select from. Only using a single charge of the more difficult standard of 2nd degree murder could mean two things:

1: That by providing a “go for the gold” serious charge, she has given some solace to the Martin family and protestors by acknowledging the seriousness of the event – but also gives Zimmerman a good chance at walking free if they do not prove that charge beyond all reasonable doubt. Voila, everyone happy. Murder was attempted, but Martin gets exonerated by a jury.

or…

2: They actually have enough evidence that has not been revealed which they believe is enough to prove that GZ was responsible for the confrontation by his actions and decisions that night.

Time will tell….

MATA
SO SORRY TO LEARN ABOUT THE 2 OTHER WHO ARE IN PRISON UNJUSTLY,
I WOULD HAVE FOUGHT FOR THEM TO GET THEIR DESERVED FREEDOM,
WHAT THE HELL IS OKAY WITH THAT KIND OF JUSTICE, TO DELIBERATELY
IMPRISON THE INNOCENT FIGHTING THE CRIMINAL KILLING IS JUSTIFIED,
IN MY MIND AND YOU’RE TOO I SEE.
THEN JUSTICE SHOULD BE CHANGE, TO GET IT RIGHT, A PIPE IS A WEAPON,
A HAMMER IS A WEAPON, A FIST IS A WEAPON A KNIFE IS A WEAPON, it’s fair to kill the attacker
because he attack, that is as simple as that, and what happened before is irrelevant that he was walking north to ,or south , or east, or west of. if someone say ,I will kill you, you better be first to kill him.
why should the just man die or be jailed, what is that kind of twisted justice, no wander there are so many people outrage for witnessing that kind of injustice, is it the LAWYER’S ignorance to lead that victim to injustice decisions or is it the PROSECUTOR, who lost the focus that he has a human being in front of him whit a life living time full of so many happening not a robot you click on and of.
where are the merits counted between the one who killed and the dead criminal, does’nt it have a weight in the balance of the judge? well it should, and if not then get them out of prison
and put the JUDGE in jail, ALONG WITH THE PROSECUTOR, AND LAWYER. THEY ARE GUILTY AS HELL’

WE ARE NOT IN THE DUEL FASHION TIME WHEN THE TWO OPPONENT ARE GIVEN A SAME GUN AND MARCH 10 FEET TO TURN ON EACH OTHER AND THE FASTEST GUN KILL BECAUSE HE WAS
ONLY FASTER, BUT NOT DESERVING OF STAYING ALIVE,
THOSE TWO SHOULD BE FREE, AND I would have raise hell for them too

Breaking News:

Shellie Zimmerman, wife of Trayvon Martin killer, arrested on perjury charge

Shellie Zimmerman, wife of George Zimmerman, who killed Trayvon Martin, was arrested Tuesday on one count of perjury, the Seminole County, Fla., Sheriff’s Department said.

Well, well, well.

Guess I nailed that one right on the head, eh?

The capias request makes for really interesting reading. It details out, in meticulous fashion, how involved Mrs. Z was in moving money around from one account to another, hiding it in a safe deposit box, withdrawing it, moving it around some more. Damning really. Especially for someone who is trying to convince the Court that she didn’t know about the money.

Which one of you chorus line members wants to be first to defend Mrs. Z and her plain and simple lies to the Court?

AYE
YES YOU HAD IT PINNED ON THE HEAD
TOO BAD FOR HER, IT SURELY CAN BE EXPLAINED,
what are they trying to do in there?
appease the panthers’s thirst for blood?

MATA
I had to come back with this thought
about the two men you talked about having been jailed for killing criminals,
IT CAME TO MY MIND THAT WHY DO GUN OWNERS ARE JAILED FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING?
WELL GUESS WHAT, IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE LIBERALS WHO TRIAL THEM FOR THE PURPOSE OF PLAYING INTO THE LEADERSHIP INTENT OF THIS GOVERNMENT TO
ELIMINATE THAT RIGHT TO CARRY GUNS THEY ARE SETTING NORMS AND USING IT BY JAILING THE ONE WHO USED HIS RIGHT TO CARRY HIS GUN AND USE IT AGAINST CRIMINAL ATTACK,
NO MATTER IF HE IS IN HIS RIGHT TO DO IT, THEY RESPONSIBLE TO PUT THEM IN JAIL ARE IN THE OBAMA’S POCKET TO SET EXAMPLE,
IF YOU COULD CHECK THEIR POLITICAL AFFILIATION, IT WOULD MAKE THIS SCENARIO RIGHT AND PERHAPS FREE THE TWO MEN. MAYBE YOU COULD TAKE THEIR CASE YOURSELF,
I THINK YOU WOULD WIN BIG
BYE

@Aye:

“Which one of you chorus line members want to be the first to defend Mrs. Z and her plain and simple lies to the court?”

I will let someone provide analysis for you:

The Trayvon Martin Case, Update 10: They Did What?

You can begin with the paragraph that reads: There is no question that the judge was completely aware of the Internet account at the original hearing where the prosecution was asking for a one million dollar bond.

But then, I am sure that you will think that you are much more intelligent when it comes to this case than a former career police office, detective and head of a SWAT team. I suggest you go to his website and nail his hide to the barn wall as you seem to think you are capable of doing to anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

It is sad that you seem to take so much pleasure in the fact that Shelley Zimmerman was arrested for information that was had by the judge, and the prosecution, at the first bond hearing. Now, Shelly Zimmerman’s face is all over the internet. Considering that she will not be subject to even more death threats, that should give you a great amount of pleasure, Aye, since you appear to have already made up your mind about the guilt, or innocense, of her husband. Considering that the poor slob who was assigned GZ’s former cell phone number received more than 70 death threats in less than ten days, what do you think Shelly Zimmerman will endure now?

@retire05:

You’re obfuscating.

Mrs. Z had the perfect opportunity to testify fully and truthfully at the hearing and she plainly, and most obviously, did not.

It doesn’t matter that the Judge knew the fundraising site(s) and PayPal account existed. That’s irrelevant and has never been in dispute.

What matters, and what the missus now has her ass in a crack over, is that she lied under oath about the money.

Hell, she sat there and told the Court that she didn’t know of any assets that could be accessed to pay bail. She allowed the Court to believe that she and her husband were indigent. This testimony came on the heels of multiple trips to the bank to move money round and round and back again, pulling money out, stashing it in a safe deposit box, moving it back. Even your very own quoted source plainly states that the amount was not disclosed to the Court.

It speaks volumes that you would dash in and attempt to defend someone who has so little respect for the Court and the oath that she took.

As far as Mrs. Z’s face being plastered all over the Interwebz, it’s been out there all along. The mug shot changes nothing.

Finally, the guy who got assigned the cell phone number, well, he’s a dolt for not being back at the T-Mobile office the day after the first calls came in.

@Aye:

Why did the affidavit, when giving the transcripts of the phone conversation between O’Mara and Shelly Zimmerman eliminate the part where Shelly Zimmerman stated that her brother-in-law would be able to provide information on how much was in the PayPal account and that he would be available for the court to speak with him?

Also, there is this part in the affidavit:

“On June 6, 2012, your Affiant met with an assistant branch manager of Insight Credit Union. The assistant branch manager explained that she met with Shellie Zimmerman, who she knew as a customer, on April 16, 2012 at the Insight branch located in Seminole County, Florida. During the meeting, the assistant branch manager assisted Shellie Zimmerman in transferring control of George Zimmerman’s account to Shellie Zimmerman. During a portion of the meeting, Shellie Zimmerman had George Zimmerman on the telephone, and the assistant branch manager spoke directly to him about the transfer.”

The assistant manager may have broken some federal laws transferring money from one personal account to the other without the person making the withdrawal actually there, or writing a check or draft to withdraw the funds in that account. I doubt that the Sanford jail let George Zimmerman leave long enough to move money around.

But none of this eliminates the fact that the judge, and the prosecution, were aware of the money, and the phone conversations prior to the original bond hearing. So what was the prosecution’s purpose in waiting until now to reveal phone conversations that they were privy to before the first bond hearing? Entrapment of a frightened young woman whose husband was in jail so they could pressure GZ into a plea deal? A young woman who knew of the death threats not only against her husband, but her inlaws and herself, as well?

You want to highlight all the mistakes made by frightened people in their 20’s, yet you ignore the total destruction attempt of George Zimmerman by the media and the race baiters, and the lies, absolute lies that have come from not only the Martin/Fulton side, but the prosecutor as well.

retire05
how could she know that she was breaking the law with their own money,
did anyone told them both to freeze whatever the people send them to help?
and that was the money of the people not their own, which they did not have any,
no one precisely told them to not touch the money,they needed badly for protecting themselves,
and how could they know in advance the amount total coming in?

@retire05:

You’re obfuscating again.

Nothing you’ve said changes the fact that Mrs. Z sat there, under oath, and blatantly lied to the Court. She was under oath and lied when she had the opportunity to present the truth.

It really does speak volumes that you would continue to defend someone who has so little respect for the rule of law and the oath that she took.

You continue to claim that the Court was aware prior to the hearing that the fundraising site(s) existed but what the judge and the Court knew, or didn’t know, is irrelevant to what the missus is in trouble over.

She is in trouble for lying under oath.

When a person is under oath, the subject matter of the questioning, and what the Court may or may not know, is completely irrelevant. What matters is the truthfulness and accuracy of answers that are given.

Finally, you allege that the Martin family as well as the Prosecution team have “lied”. Did any of those supposed “lies” occur under oath?

@Aye:

What is it about the question that when asked if she knew the exact amount of the funds, at that moment and Shellie Zimmerman said “No” do you not understand? You seem to think that the prosecution has the right to just pop up days, weeks, months later and present partial evidence that they were in possession of from the git-go. Why do you think Alan Dershowitz is nailing Angela Corey’s hide to the barn wall? Because there are judicial rules. And what is the purpose of arresting Shellie Zimmerman in the first place? To pile on and create a situation where Corey can get Zimmerman to cop a plea so she doesn’t wind up looking totally incompentent (which she is).

How incompetent do you have to be to make statements in an affidavit, as Corey did, only to have your lead investigator testify that he didn’t know who worded the affidavit although he was one of two people who wrote it; who could not, with certainty say who started the confrontation and who had never bothered to request George Zimmerman’s medical report on GZs injuries, and who could not provide proof that GZ had “profiled” Trayvon Martin? How incompetent do you have to be to turn your lead investigator into a “hostile” witness? A prosecutor’s affidavit, signed, and filed with the court, is a testimony, of sorts. Angela Corey has presented false testimony to the court. Call it perjury, or not, but she lied.

Cindy Anthony lied on the stand in defense of her daughter. Yeah, technically, she was guilty of purjury. But the prosecution didn’t go after her because it would have made her a sympathetic witness and they didn’t want to do that. That is now EXACTLY what Corey has done with Shellie Zimmerman.

As to Team Skittles; the father, Tracy Martin, told the police in his first interview, that the screams for help were not coming from his son. That is on record. Later he claimed they were. So, did he lie when he said the screams for help were NOT Trayvon’s, or did he lie when he said they were after he lawyered up the next day after his first statement? It is also illegal to give a false statement to the police, in case you were unaware of that.

I don’t think Shellie Zimmerman has such little disregard for the “rule of law”, as you put it. I think she is a 25 year old young woman who is scared to death because of the death threats she, and the rest of George’s family, received from the time the race baiters and poverty pimps got involved. When people are frightened, they don’t always make the best decisions. That is, except for you, Aye, since we all know that you are perfect.

And you are the one obfuscating, Aye. You refuse (as is your m.o.) to address the fact that the prosecution waited almost two months to charge Shellie Zimmeman with perjury due to information that was available to them at the first bond hearing. Now, I fully understand that you do not want to discuss anything where you cannnot control the narrative, but it is what it is. Having Shellie Zimmerman arrested was a power play on the part of Angela Corey, nothing more, nothing less. But it will come back to bite her in the end.

I have two words for you: Mike Nifong.

@retire05:

And the obfuscation continues.

Corey is irrelevant. Dershowitz is irrelevant. Tracy Martin and Cindy Anthony are irrelevant.

The only thing that is relevant to this issue is that Mrs. Z lied under oath. Yet you’re doing your very best tap dance routine in order to avoid that inconvenient truth.

What is it about the question that when asked if she knew the exact amount of the funds, at that moment and Shellie Zimmerman said “No” do you not understand?

Of course, it’s also inconvenient for you that your representation of what Mrs. Z was asked under oath, and what she’s gotten her ass in a crack over, is not at all accurate either:

O’MARA: Other major assets that you have which you can liquidate reasonably to assist in coming up with money for a bond?

S. ZIMMERMAN: None that I know of.

O’MARA: I discussed with you the pending motion to have your husband, George, declared indigent for cost, have I not?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, you have.

O’MARA: Are you of any financial means where you could assist in those costs?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Not that I’m aware of.

BDLR: You mentioned also, in terms of the ability of your husband to make a bond amount, that you had no money, is that correct?

S. ZIMMERMAN: To my knowledge, that’s correct.

BDLR: Were you aware of the website that Mr. Zimmerman or somebody on his behalf created?

S. ZIMMERMAN: I’m aware of that website.

BDLR: How much money is in that website right now? How much money as a result of that website was –

S. ZIMMERMAN: Currently, I do not know.

BDLR: Do you have an estimate as to how much money has already been obtained or collected?

S. ZIMMERMAN: I do not.

She sat there, under oath, and led the Court to believe that she and her hubby were indigent.

She LIED when she told the Court that there were no other assets that could be accessed to meet bail.

She LIED when she told the Court that she didn’t know… even an estimate… of how much money had been raised.

These answers to the Court came on the heels of her spending much time and effort moving money round and round, back and forth, from one account to another (always in multiple increments of under $10K), withdrawing it, stashing it in a safe deposit box, putting it back. This money shifting shell game was conducted in the midst of multiple clumsily “coded” (and recorded) conversations with her hubby:

But prosecutors say bank records show Shellie Zimmerman had stashed cash in a safe deposit box and transferred nearly $75,000 from her husband’s bank account into hers. When her husband was granted bond and released from jail, the money was returned to George Zimmerman’s account, according to a probable-cause affidavit prosecutors filed.

Prosecutors said Zimmerman and his wife were careful to speak in code.

“I’m, um, trying to think cause you’re going to take out $10 and keep it with you in cash, right?” George Zimmerman said to his wife.

“Yeah, like $9,” Shellie Zimmerman answered.

He asked whether she had “more than $10″ cash.

“Not with me,” she said.

“Do I have $100?”

“There’s like $8. $8.60,” she said.

“Total, how much are we looking at?” he asked her.

“Um, like $155.”

George Zimmerman said he didn’t want to spend it all in one shot by using it all on bond and said another person had advised to hoard as “much cash as possible.”

On April 24, once Zimmerman was free, the couple transferred $85,000 back to his account.

You should read the capias request. It’s damning.

Mrs. Z is a blatant, bold faced liar…. Yet, you defend her?

Birds of a feather, eh?

I have two words for you: Lying liar

@Aye:

Well, you should be creaming your jeans with pure estacy, Aye, that Shellie Zimmerman has not been arrested and charged with perjury. That is what you wanted all along, isn’t it, that the Zimmermans be so persecuted for their exercising their right to carry a weapon for self protection. Can’t have a bunch of wetbacks armed, now can we? And you, like the persecution team of Angela Corey, eliminated the part of Shellie Zimmerman’s testimony where she said her brother in law would know the answers to the questions being posed to her.

So what are you guilty of: lying by ommission.

And where did that money come from? We are being led to believe it came from GZ’s PayPal account. But have you seen any documentation that proves where those funds derived from? Have you seen their credit union statements, a record from PayPal, ect?

You make a lot of statements, but when asked questions, you dodge them like a rabbit tries to dodge the fox. But hey, with any luck at all, you will get to see a Hispanic (now called a “white” Hispanic to make it seem like racial profiling) condemned for shooting a guy who was trying to bash his brains out on a concrete sidewalk.

@retire05:

Again with the obfuscation.

Mrs. Z plainly and simply lied under oath and, even with cited references to the hearing transcript and the audio taped phone conversations, you continue to dance the shuck and jive.

It doesn’t matter where the money came from. It doesn’t matter if it was transferred from the PayPal account or if it came from a street-side lemonade stand. The origin of the funds is irrelevant.

It doesn’t matter if her brother in law supposedly knew the answers or not.

Nor does it matter how long the prosecution delayed in bringing charges unless they were outside the statute of limitations.

What matters, and the only things that matter, are that Mrs. Z knew the money existed, Mrs. Z knew the amount, and Mrs. Z LIED about both of those things.

I know it’s difficult for you to wrap your addled brain around it, but that is the undeniable reality.

Yet, you continue to beclown yourself.

@retire05:

Mrs. Z plainly and simply lied under oath and, even with cited references to the hearing transcript and the audio taped phone conversations, you continue to dance the shuck and jive.

Apparently that Mrs. Zimmerman lied is not quite so plain and simple:

According to William A. Jacobson is Associate Clinical Professor of Law and Director of the Securities Law Clinic at Cornell Law School. He is a 1981 graduate of Hamilton College and a 1984 graduate of Harvard Law School. At Harvard he was Senior Editor of the Harvard International Law Journal and Director of Litigation for the Harvard Prison Legal Assistance Project. Prior to joining the Cornell law faculty in 2007, Professor Jacobson had a highly successful civil litigation and arbitration practice in Providence, Rhode Island, concentrating in investment, employment, and business disputes in the securities industry, including many high profile cases reported in leading newspapers and magazines. Professor Jacobson has a national reputation as a leading practitioner in securities arbitration, and is a member of the Board of Directors of the Public Investors Arbitration Bar Association…

Perjury charge against Shellie Zimmerman raises more questions of prosecutorial overreaching (Update: Prosecution misleadingly edited transcript)

So an officer of the court may deceive the court … again, but Mrs. Zimmerman? May the Law forbid1 Off to the gallows with her!

@retire05:

Mrs. Z plainly and simply lied under oath and, even with cited references to the hearing transcript and the audio taped phone conversations, you continue to dance the shuck and jive.

It appears however Mr. Retire05 that a detailed and nuance evaluation of the evidence suggests neither husband or wife attempted to mislead the court. It appears however that may well have been sandbagged by a rouge prosecutor, a prosecutor with a documented history of misleading the court.

If Zimmerman was hiding the money to mislead the Court and get a low bond, why would he have asked O’Mara five days after the bond hearing what he should do with the money? According to O’Mara’s interview with Anderson Cooper on April 26, Zimmerman told O’Mara about the funds in the context of “What should I do with the money? There’s no suggestion Zimmerman told O’Mara about the funds in the context of “I should have told you about this earlier.” It sounds to me like on April 25 when Zimmerman told his lawyer about the money, he was still clueless as to its relevance to the issue of bond.

Similarly, if Zimmerman intended to keep the funds a secret, why did he immediately agree to turn over control of them to O’Mara? (Since Zimmerman was not in court on April 27 when O’Mara advised the court of the money raised through the paypal account, and that the money had already been transferred to O’Mara’s trust account, Zimmerman had to have effectuated the transfer before court on the 27th.)

Also, Zimmerman did not lie about his finances during his intake interview with pretrial services, which makes a recommendation as to bond. Here’s his intake form. He was never asked about the amount of money he has, only whether he’s employed and was seeking a public defender. He truthfully said he was not employed and his lawyer was Mark O’Mara.

I don’t see anything to indicate Zimmerman knew or believed in advance of the April 20th bond hearing that the funds he had raised were “assets”, in the way most people think of assets, like a car or house or savings or investments. Nor do I see any indication he knew before the hearing his wife would be asked about the website funds, and that they had agreed to deceive the court about them.

It seems more likely to me Zimmerman didn’t know the website donations were relevant to the court’s decision on the amount of bond and therefore had to be disclosed because no one, including O’Mara, had asked him about the funds or explained their relevance to him.

I don’t see a conspiracy between Zimmerman and his wife to hide money from the court to get a lower bond. I see the difficulties that arise when a lawyer is new to a case, has limited time to spend with the client because he’s in jail, and has to prepare for a bond hearing relying primarily on information from relatives.

O’Mara may not be “at fault” given the enormous pressures and time constraints he was working under, the limited time he had to develop his client’s trust, and the unfavorable conditions for conferences with his client, but if he didn’t ask or discuss the website funds with his client, despite knowing he had such a website, how was Zimmerman to know the funds were still considered “his” even though he had earmarked them for other purposes, and had to be disclosed?

What’s clear is that Zimmerman intended to use some of the donated funds for bond; that he knew the amount on hand as of April 16 when his wife told him “135″; and that he ceased having the ability to direct the disbursement of the funds from the website after April 25 or 26,when he turned them over to O’Mara. I don’t see a defendant with diminished credibility. I see a poorly informed client.

George Zimmerman’s Credibility By Jeralyn, Section Colorado News

But such reasoning and insight is unlikely to prevail against a lynch mob.

Mike O’Malley
is in it so complicated, that we the public need to get help from the high above so to get explaination for what started to be very plane to comprehend that a men doing a job so to help a community get free of crimes get attack to the point of many bruises and quite a lot of lost blood , happen to shoot his opponent
as to save his life, must logical be free.
and if the prosecutor ask for a bond of one million, it mean that he is not fit to be in that position,
and will be a great danger to the accused all along the current escalation of the case,
that prosecutor work not for justice, and we see it more as he try to influence the judge to jail the victim,
not for a crime but for a money matter, a misunderstanding,
and now try to jail his wife, showing he is nothing but a spitfull person using his power to hurt the citizens of this
COUNTRY, WHICH FROM WHAT WE HEAR ABOUT MARISSA FROM HER JAIL, AND THE YOUNG KID CASE IN ADULT COURT,
AND NOW ZIMMERMAN GETTING COMPLICATED SCREWS IN HIS WHEEL BARREL. AND NOW CONFUSING HIS WIFE TO GET HER IN TROUBLE. TELL US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW,

@Mike O’ Malley
When GZ waived counsel twice in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, ditched his original defense team and then mishandled the PayPal fund I was inclined towards the perception that GZ was simply out of his depth. Finding now, that clandestine money transactions and less than truthful statements were made by Mrs.Z , I can only marvel at the dysfunction of all parties involved.
Ms. Corey’s pattern of less than professional behavior, the pliability of Team Skittles narrative and the judge’s apparent attempt to maintain a semblance of control over the case and now the attempt to hide assets combine to scream train wreck. This case will have no good result, no matter the outcome.

Brian
hi,
don’t give up, it’s going to be a long ride, they all are public figures, and they don’t like the heat,
so they will take their anger on GZ BY CRUCIFYING HIM AND NOW HIS WIFE,
THEY WILL MAKE HIM PAY FOR HAVING THE PUBLIC JUDGING THEIR EVERY MOVES,
and like NATURE, WE WILL SEE STORMS AND SUNNY DAYS, AND GZ IS NOT A GUY TO BREAK UNDER PRESSURE, THAT’S MY OPINION, AFTER I notice his profile, and no matter how wrong they try to portrait him, they stumble of the obvious, that is, what would they have done when attacked repeatedly,
knowing now that in that COMMUNITY, THERE WAS NO ONE TO ANSWER YOUR SCREAM ASKING FOR HELP ,THIS 14 TIME, THEN, WHAT WOULD THEY HAVE DONE? DIE? OR LIVE?
BYE

@Bees
The amount of money hidden by SZ is not as important as the attempt to hide the assets from the court. The original actions by GZ and family seemed less than organized. They are in territory that no one ever envisions. That doesn’t give anyone immunity from perjury and Mr. and Mrs.Z have greatly harmed their credibility. If as we are told that the physical evidence of assault on GZ is eclipsed by whatever evidence of provocation Corey can present, GZ’s damaged credibility makes his defense that much more problematic.

@ Bees
I don’t believe that Corey can show sufficient provocation or a willful intent on GZ’s part.Today in Houston, a jury convicted a man who set up a confrontation with a neighbor and then videoed it. He claimed that SYG covered his actions, 1 dead and 2 wounded. The video showed contrivance and that he brandished his pistol illegally and that he was never in fear for his life.. He had a CHL but ignored the rules he was taught before he could be certified and his actions did not meet the legal threshold of SYG.

Brian
it was hard for him to focus after his painful ordeal, he must have been stunt by the rushing tide,
first he was let go by the law officer, deciding then he did it to save his life,
then the mob get an ear of it and hell break loose, he is charge and arrested after being let free,
the spin is making him look for protecting his family, how would he do it,
well the money coming to help him exactly for that, and him and his wife where terrified, now this is another factor to be taken very seriously by the JUDGE BEING TOLD BY THE PROSECUTOR, CRUCIFY THEM BOTH BECAUSE THEY HAVE LIED TO YOU JUDGE, UNDER OATH? THIS UNDER OATH HAS TO BE CLARIFIED, WHERE THEY UNDER OATH THEN,?
THEY ARE UNDER A LYNCH CALL, A MILLION DOLLARS ON HIS HEAD, HIS WIFE FEAR FOR HER LIFE, GZ LOOK AT THE DEMOLITION OF MANY LIVES HE LOVE THEM, HE MUST HAVE BEEN AND STILL IS
SO TERRIBLY DOWN, and his body is trying to heal from the bruizes, his lost of blood have weaken him,
he come in front of the judge not himself, just a shadow of himself, while tending to protect his loved one with making plans not for tomorrow but at once,
errors yes or most likely priorities of securing his family, no matter what it take, that money is there for him not for the BOUND, THE PROOF IS THE WIFE BEING TOLD TO STACK SOME MONEY IN CASE, SHE TAKE SOME , STACK IT, BRING IT BACK, STACK IT AGAIN LIKE A PANICKING IN TOTAL FEAR, THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, THE LAWYER IS A GOOD MAN HE GIVE HELP OUTSIDE HIS REQUIRED WORK,
THAT HAS TO BE TAKEN IN BEING A HUMANLY NORMAL REACTIONS IN FRONT OF BEING ATTACK THREATEN, SO IT ALL LESSEN THE ERROR THEY MIGHT HAVE MADE,
AND A JUDGE IS SUPPOSE TO UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN BEHAVIOR CONFRONTED WITH A WALL ALL AROUND HIM, WITH NO WAY TO ESCAPE, IS IN WHAT A JUDGE IS SUPPOSE TO KNOW, TO MERIT HIS POSITION OF HAVING THE WISDOM TO BE A JUDGE FOR, HOPE HE IS, AFTER HE MASTER HIS ANGER OF QUOTE UNQUOTE BEING SOCALLED LIED TO, AND JAILED HIM IN SOLITARY CELL.
A COUPLE OF YOUNG ADULT DESPERATE TO OVERCOME , AND RAISE FROM THE HELL THEY ARE BEING DRAWN IN.
BYE

@Brian:

combine to scream train wreck. This case will have no good result, no matter the outcome.

That seems a fair assessment.

When I first heard that Judge Lester determined that Mrs. Zimmerman had been less than truthful with him I recalled something that Charles Murray had recently said. During his research for his latest book: Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010, Dr. Murray found that America’s working class had become decidedly less honest than had been typical fifty years ago.

Brian
about the other actions, we can imagine the adrenaline heating when a man or a woman is confronted with the need to save his life or someone else life,
the rules cannot be the same for all,
only the end is the same, AND NEEDED
a person being attack find each a different path to survive, it is you or me, and what ever decision I make is better be the right one, that is can I run? no I cannot, I don’t like what I must do but I have no choice,
because what is the reason for having a gun, if I am not allowed to use it to survive?
and the GOVERNMENT MIGHT USE THEIR POWER TO GET THOSE CASES IN JAIL, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TAKE YOUR GUN AWAY FROM YOU, IT LOOK LIKE THERE ARE SO MANY JAILED FOR HAVING TRYING TO SAVE THEIR OWN LIVE WITH THE USE OF THE GUN, THAT IT MAKE YOU THINK THAT IS BEING INFLUENCE FROM THE LEADERSHIP TO SCARE THE GUN OWNERS, FROM WHAT WE READ LATELY, VERY STRANGE CONNECTION MORE AND MORE VISIBLE.
BYE

Mike O’MALLEY
YES IF SO, IT MEAN THEY LOST TRUST, IN THE GOVERNMENT, WHO SEEM ,
NO NOT SEEM , BUT DO PROTECT ANARCHY, RIOTS OF THUGS BREAKING ANYTHING ON THEIR WAY, ATTACKING THE POLICE STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE WHILE NOT KILLING THEM,
AND ALSO THE MOVEMENT OF GANGSTA NOT BEING DEALT WITH DOING CRIMES ON THE GOOD PEOPLE, ALL THIS WHILE THE ELECTED ARE HIDDEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE CALLING THEM SONS, WELL PROTECTED BY HIRED GUYS DOING JUST THAT ON THE TAXPAYER BACK POCKET,
AND GETTING AWAY FROM IT, THE PEOPLE ARE VERY DEPRESS WITH NO JOBS,
IT IS A FEND FOR YOURSELF TIME, THAT IS THE NEW CULTURE OF: I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE FREE.
BYE

@ Mike O’Malley
I don’t want to make a total generalization but I think America lost a great deal of society’s innocence after JFK was shot, Dallas brought the ugly truth home to a degree as never before. LBJ poisoned an entire culture with the War on Poverty, the counter culture gave us people like Ayers and Dohrn and the seeds of relativism, once planted in the Boomers , removed the conscience that governed the children of the Greatest Generation. When life’s waypoints and the goals and expectations of the parents are disdained and discarded by the children you have the end of black and white, right or wrong and everything is now a shade of grey. No wrong,no right everything is just okay.

@ Bees
I have always felt that GZ failed in his first duty as a CHL holder and that the use of lethal force was necessary because he failed to maintain the separation from the immediate threat. He was as a legally armed individual, to hold to a disciplined, measured response and be the “Adult” in the situation. His wounds and the witness visuals show me someone who should have controlled the confrontation but failed because of a nearly fatal lapse in awareness. That said, if a person is put in a position where there is a threat of harm, they should react as needed to end that threat.It will be interesting to see what agendas will be pushed in this case.

Brian
yes very true, but the fact that maybe he tried it, by going toward his car, should have given the message to the other that he was leaving him,
that message did not click on the other, which attacked him at that time, and by surprising him,
which he could have shot him at that precise moment, then the PROSECUTOR WOULD HAVE A REAL CASE TO DEBATE ABOUT GZ NOT TRYING TO FIGHT HIM WITH HIS FIST, BEFORE SHOOTING,
IT DID NOT HAPPEN,
BUT HE WAS SURPRISE AND THROWN ON THE GROUND AS HE TURNED FROM HIS CAR SITE TO FACE THE ATTACK, THEN BEING HIS HEAD BASH ON THE CONCRETE,
YES HE HAD UNDER ESTIMATED HIS ATTACKER’S HATE AND WISH TO KILL HIM AS HE TOLD HIM.
THAT WAS HIS MISTAKE,
AND FROM THEN ON HE PAID DEARLY FOR IT, AS WE SAW THE BRUISES ON HIM AND NONE ON HIS ATTACKER EXCEPT THE BULLET HOLE,
WHO ELSE ARE IN JAIL BECAUSE THEY HAVE UNDERESTIMATE THE DEATH INTENT FROM THEIR OPPONENT, AND WAITED TILL THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU REALLY KNOW IT’S YOUR LIFE OR HIS,
AND THERE ARE MANY BURIED IN THE GROUND ALSO WHO WAITED TOO LONG,
NOBODY EXPECT THAT ATTACK, AND BY NOT EXPECTING IT TRY TO TALK THE OTHER TO REASON,
WE JUST HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE SWAT TEAMS, TRYING TO TALK TO ONE WHO IS HIDING IN A HOUSE AND COMMITED A CRIME OR CAUGHT BEFORE HOPEFULLY, JUST THINK HOW MANY HOURS IT TAKE THEM TO GET THEIR MAN SURRENDERING HANDS ABOVE HIS HEAD, OR THEIR MAN KILLING HIMSELF AS HIS LAST DESPERATE MOVE, OR STILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT ON HIS NEW TARGET WHICH ARE THE POLICE HUNTING HIM,
DO WE ACTUALY EXPECT A PEACEFUL CIVILIAN ON A TASK GIVEN TO HIM TO PREVENT CRIMES FOR A COMMUNITY BURDEN BY TOO MANY BREAK IN WHERE NO ONE IS CATCH BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO YOUNG, AND CREATE A BURDEN IF CAUGHT BY THE POLICE, WHO LIKE TO TO NOT HAVE THEM
PROSECUTE.
YES I REPEAT, DO WE ACTUALLY EXPECT A NORMAL CITIZEN TO DO THE SAME PERSUASION GAME WHILE BEING PUNCH TO HAVE A BROKEN NOSE, THEN IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH, TO HAVE HIS HEAD BASHED ON A CONCRETE EDGE OF AN SIDEWALK ?, TO NOT TAKE HIS GUN AT THE EXTREME TIME OF A SURE LOST OF CONSCIOUSNESS OR DEATH, AND TRY WHAT WAS THE UNTHINKABLE TILL THEN , THAT IS TO SHOOT AS A LAST EFFORT TO SURVIVE ?
YES THAT LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AN ERROR THAT IS TO WAIT TOO LONG TO SHOOT
OR WAS RENDERED UNABLE TO DO IT UNDER THE CONSTRAINT OF A YOUNG ATHLETE 5/11, [ I am noting my previous error saying 6/4 ] AND STRONG AS HE HAD BEEN TRAINED TO DEVELOP HIS STRENGTH WHICH HE USED PERFECTLY ON HIS OPPONENT,
HOW COME WE DON’T START BY LEARNING MORE ON THE ATTACKER’S PROFILE DEEPER THAN WHAT WE KNOW OF HIM NOW, IT WOULD HELP THE WHAT S, THE WHEN S, AND THE WHY S, HE WAS SHUT.

retire05
on 64,
that is such sad story to read, and like you mentioned no news did find it important enough
to let the people know, very sad yes
bye