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Old Guy
10 years ago
The maps shown speak volumes. Thanks.
retire05
10 years ago
How about comparing a U.S. election results map with a crime rate map?
Or would that just show that where Democrats win elections (like Los Angeles and Chicago) the crime rate is higher there and you don’t want to risk that honesty?
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
This map suggests to me the Irish/English and yes The Portugese got it right. No guns–let’s settle it in THE PUBS.
Honorable mention to India and China.
another vet
10 years ago
@Richard Wheeler: Unless I’m color blind, it seems to me that the color of the U.S. is the same as England, Ireland, Portugal, China, and India despite the much higher rate of gun ownership here. I’d rather keep my all of my Constitutional rights including the Second which was designed to protect all of the others.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@another vet: Not the same color on gun ownership. Suggests homicide rate can be low without armed citizenry.
"2ND protects all the others" Your opinion –to me a scary thought.
The 2nd Amendment doesn’t have the caveat “unless it scares Richard Wheeler.” Sorry.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@retire05: I’ m O.K with the 2nd Amendment.To say it’s NEEDED to protect all our Constitutional Rights–sounds like Cowboy Diplomacy. Unneeded hyperbole.
I’ m O.K with the 2nd Amendment.To say it’s NEEDED to protect all our Constitutional Rights–sounds like Cowboy Diplomacy.
Well then, I guess those Founders, who wrote the Second Amendment and insisted that it be included in the Bill of Rights were all “cowboys” ( a term you seem to use as a pejorative). Too bad you don’t have some “cowboy” values.
I might remind you that Chris Kyle, a man whose boots you are not fit to shine, was a “cowboy” before he was America’s record breaking sniper. Take your insults about “cowboys” and shove them where the sun never shines.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@retire05: Got nothing against real cowboys Wing tipped Connecticut Yankee GWB was a poseur. Chris Kyle a great man. Spielberg has movie about him in the works.
“2ND protects all the others” Your opinion –to me a scary thought.
Nowhere near as scary as people who would be willing to give up their rights for freebies. I bet you a bunch of the Jews at places like Jozefow wish they would have had been armed.
Why do you think the 2nd Amendment was put in there?
Randy
10 years ago
@another vet: Vet, The more posts I see of Richard Wheeler, the more I think his military service claims are bogus. No one could have been in any of the countries we have been in and seen the things we have seen and have his views unless we had some mental deficiencies.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@Randy: Randy That’s a nasty claim. Aye has my DD-214 which shows my service as a Marine Officer in RVN 67-68. –awarded Navy Comm. with combar “V”
True enough I’ve never been where you’ve served.
A.V. Here’s my thoughts. At Camp Pendleton I served as a Range Officer and was proficient in weapons ranging from M-60 to 45cal pistol. I believe a substantial % of Americans who own or have direct access to guns are not properly trained in their usage –am I wrong?
I don’t think any citizen has a need for an AK-47 which I’ ve had fired at me.
I believe a substantial % of Americans who own or have direct access to guns are not properly trained in their usage
A greater percentage of Amerians who own or have direct access to cars are not properly trained in their usage. Should we put restrictions on vehicle ownership using your standards?
I don’t think any citizen has a need for an AK-47 which I’ ve had fired at me.
Which part of the Second Amendment addresses “need?”
another vet
10 years ago
@Randy: The puzzling part to me, is how after all of the evidence that has been posted here by john galt and others, clearly showing what the intent of the 2nd Amendment was, he could still say it was a matter of opinion that the 2nd Amendment was to safeguard to the rest, those being our liberties. It wasn’t an opinion, it was a statement of verifiable historical fact. It’ll be interesting to see what he feels the reason for the amendment was.
Another little historical tid bit. Even the Dred Scott decision acknowledged that if blacks were free, they would have the right to keep and bear arms and to take them wherever they go. Check out page 60 US 417.
@Richard Wheeler: I don’t know how I can re-phrase my question. You stated that it was a matter of opinion that the 2nd Amendment was put in there to safe guard the rest. I’m not going to go back and repost everything that johngalt and others have posted here proving that fact. If the 2nd Amendment wasn’t put in there to protect our rights from tyranny, then why do you think it was it put in there?
I believe a substantial % of Americans who own or have direct access to guns are not properly trained in their usage –am I wrong?
That is a matter of opinion. Given that the shooting sports are some of the safest out there, I would have to say you are wrong. Please provide evidence to support your claim. I’m not saying that there aren’t yahoos out there with guns. I actually got off the range a month ago because the couple next me didn’t know what the hell they were doing. They were the exception rather than the norm.
I don’t think any citizen has a need for an AK-47 which I’ ve had fired at me.
I’ve had AK’s, mortars, rockets, and missiles that Saddam Hussein had that your side of the aisle said he didn’t have, shot at me as well. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@another vet: I understand your belief that the 2nd protects ALL our Constitutional Rights—I’M O.K. with that.
Your range experience is an example of my concerns. Better training,safeguards including locking features would help. Let’s at least acknowledge the excessive violence of citizenry in our country(as evidenced by the map) should be a concern—not just collateral damage.
Thanks for your service—–The Colonel as well.
btw Their are some good Dem. vets out there like Jim Webb–
another vet
10 years ago
@Randy: I think the reason why we see things different than Rich, aside from just having political differences, is that the war he was in was different than the one we were in. He was fighting to defend a government from communist aggressors. We were there to liberate a people from a tyrant and his government. Like those who freed Europe from Hitler, we saw first hand the ugliness of a totalitarian government. He didn’t.
Their are some good Dem. vets out there like Jim Webb–
Really, would this be the same Jim Webb whose aid got busted for carrying an illegal firearm inside the city limits of Washington, D.C.? The same Jim Webb who claimed that the firearm belonged to the aid, and only after the charges were dismissed, finally admitted the gun was his own?
No surprise that you would think a liar, who’se goal was to cover his ass at the expense of the aid, is a “good Dem.”
another vet
10 years ago
@Richard Wheeler: The violence in this country is not due to guns like the left claims. It is heavily concentrated in gang run urban black neighborhoods. I’m not going to repost the FBI crime stats again proving the point. You’ll have to look those up yourself. If you were to adjust for that, this country wouldn’t be as violent. In contrast, some of the areas with the lowest violent crime rates are also black areas so race is not the cause. Seems to me that the issue is the gang infested urban areas. If urbanites can’t control themselves (and those are all solid blue in color), why should the rest of us have to adjust?
Jim Webb is an exception to the Democrats. Ditto for Bob Kerrey. I’d be interested to see the real reason Webb chose not to run again. A good bet is that his party shifted too far to the left. The bulk of the Party is more in line with Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry (whom I have ZERO respect for regardless if his medals are legit or not), and Durbin.
Part of the reason that Webb decided to not run again was because he knew the laws of D.C. when it came to firearms, then lied that the firearm his aide was busted for was not really his and didn’t admit that until the case against the aide was dropped. That would have been pure campaign ammunition for his Republican opponent, and he knew it. Webb proved he was not man enough to own up to his own elitism, thinking D.C.’s gun laws were just for the little people, and not some elitist Democrat.
Just because someone shows honor and valor while in the military doesn’t absolve them from their actions once they are out. I would point you to both John Kerry and John McCain, who rode their military service to office. They are nothing more than modern day Benedict Arnolds who had great valor in war but then turned traitor to the very nation they fought for.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@retire05: To call John MeCain a “Benedict Arnold” is pretty sleazy even for you.
To call John MeCain a “Benedict Arnold” is pretty sleazy even for you.
I base my comments on McCain on his Senate career, not his Naval career. Do you think the vet that killed Chris Kyle should still be considered a war hero?
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@retire05: His Senate career may not be in accord with your wants but to call him a traitor? That B.S. won’t fly with 95% of the American people. You’re on a shaky limb looking for further electoral thrashings.
His Senate career may not be in accord with your wants but to call him a traitor? That B.S. won’t fly with 95% of the American people. You’re on a shaky limb looking for further electoral thrashings.
John McCain has done more things that are adverse to the American people than I can list. He held immense hatred for John Kerry, but once they took a trip to Vietnam, and McCain turned his back on the POWs that were still there, in spite of valid intel that POWs still remained, he lost me. Nevermind that he and Kerry claimed there were no remaining POWs when they got back, and Kerry’s brother-in-law got a contract for a deep water port in Vietnam shortly after.
McCain is, and was, for sale. To the highest bidder. He admitted he provided classified intel to the NVC in his book, and said he was sorry for that. Did you ever pause to question why his Hanoi Hilton classmates didn’t come out for him in any of his presidential bids en masse?
Perhaps you should ask Sam Johnson.
The man who murdered Chris Kyle was considered a war hero. He served his nation honorably, and came back damaged. I ask you again, do you think he should be still considered a hero? Does his service to this nation absolve him from the bad things he did?
Honorable service is not a “get out of jail free” card, Richard.
Richard Wheeler
10 years ago
@retire05: “provided classified intel to NVC” after being tortured!! you sanctimonious old hag.
Nothing like standing strong on your principles, eh?
I didn’t not vote for McCain, or Romney, in the primaries. But like all American voters, in November I was left with only two choices; McCain or Obama. Would you have preferred I a) voted for Obama or b) did not exercise my right to vote as a protest and allow Obama to win because of it?
Sometimes, Aye, we are forced to pick the lesser of two evils.
And what did you do? Did you vote for McCain, knowing he’s a RINO; did you vote for Obama knowing he’s a Marxist or did you sit it out letting McCain lose because of people that sat it out?
Who I voted for, or didn’t vote for, is irrelevant to this discussion because I’m not the one who has been prancing ’round this thread claiming that McCain is a “traitor”. That would be you.
The problem you have is that, once again, you’ve been caught running off at the keyboard.
You claim the man is a “traitor” to the country…yet you voted for him. You either a) don’t really consider him to be a “traitor” or b) you don’t think that it matters.
Those are the only two possibilities.
Congratulations. You’ve exposed yourself once again.
another vet
10 years ago
@retire05: The lying would have obviously hurt Webb however, given that he would have been running in pro gun state Virginia, snubbing D.C. gun laws may have actually garnered him votes. As for the other two, John Kerry = Jane Fonda in my book meaning he is a low life piece of shit whom I have no use for. As for McCain, while I disagree with what he did by dropping the VN POW issue, he gave us unwavering support in Iraq when it was politically expedient to abandon the troops. As such, even though I disagree with him on other issues and believe he has worn out his welcome in Congress like a number of other career politicians and he needs to retire, I don’t believe he ever betrayed me or any else serving in GWOT.
Who I voted for, or didn’t vote for, is irrelevant to this discussion because I’m not the one who has been prancing ’round this thread claiming that McCain is a “traitor”. That would be you.
I see. In other words, you’re too cowardly to answer the question.
The problem you have is that, once again, you’ve been caught running off at the keyboard.
Consider yourself an excellent example to follow.
You claim the man is a “traitor” to the country…yet you voted for him. You either a) don’t really consider him to be a “traitor” or b) you don’t think that it matters.
I had a choice between McCain and a Marxist. What was your choice? Oh, that’s right. You will obfuscate in order to not answer.
Congratulations. You’ve exposed yourself once again
.
Bet you know a lot about exposing one’s self. Do you perfer shopping malls or drive in fast food diners?
As such, even though I disagree with him on other issues and believe he has worn out his welcome in Congress like a number of other career politicians and he needs to retire, I don’t believe he ever betrayed me or any else serving in GWOT.
Did you read McCain’s book? Do you know that he admits he gave sensitive material to the NVC? Do you know that he received special medical treatment in NVN when others, like Stockdale and Johnson, did not? Did you ever ask yourself why the Hanoi Hilton alumnii did not back McCain? Especially Sam Johnson who remains in Congress?
Choosing McCain over Obama was like choosing Benedict Arnold over King George. Which one would you have picked?
another vet
10 years ago
@retire05: I voted for McCain without reservation. I was on my second tour in Iraq that year. Had I been home, there would have been a McCain/Palin bumper sticker on my pick-up just like there was a Bush/Cheney one on in 2004 even though I voted for Harry Browne (L) in 2000. It really irritates the lefties in Illinois to have bumper stickers that don’t support the dems. Kind of fun.
As for the POW issue, and I’m not trying to make excuses for anyone, I believe once the decision is made to send Americans into harm’s way we owe it to them to ensure full support for their efforts and to ensure that each is accounted for at the end of the war. Leave no one behind. The way to achieve that is total victory. In this country, the military doesn’t decide when to start and stop wars. The politicians do. VN wasn’t the only war where we left POW’s behind. There was ample evidence that we did so in Europe at the end of WWII and in Korea. In both cases our POW’s ended up in Soviet camps. Why? Because the pols didn’t see the wars though to their conclusions. WWII didn’t rid Europe of oppression. As a matter of fact, Europe was more oppressed after the war than before it because we gave Stalin half the continent. The only sure fire way to have made sure all of the POW’s would have come home would have been to take Patton’s advice and finish off “Uncle Joe” as FDR so fondly called him. Same goes for VN. The only way to have made sure all the POW’s came back would have been to finish off N. Vietnam, meaning an invasion of NV. In both cases, our politicians who got us into those wars, didn’t see them through to the end for political reasons. Disgusting as it may be, that’s what happened. It’s a dark side to our recent history that no one likes to talk about.
I did not. I knew he was a RINO, his record proves that. And I also knew he was the worst the GOP could have possibly offered. But he was the lesser of two evils, as I said.
As for the POW issue, and I’m not trying to make excuses for anyone, I believe once the decision is made to send Americans into harm’s way we owe it to them to ensure full support for their efforts and to ensure that each is accounted for at the end of the war. Leave no one behind.
I agree with everything you said. But the fact remains, McCain turned his back on POWs left in VN. And no amount of political posturing can remove that fact.
Now McCain is advocating us getting involved in Syria. There are no good guys in Syria. None. Assaud is a butcher and a dictator and the opposition is AQ or AQ spin-offs. Our Middle East policy coming out of the Oval Office is a disaster. We are simply deposing dictators that also feared AQ so that AQ, or the Muslim Brotherhood which was the seed that AQ grew out of, are taking power. It will come back to bite us.
another vet
10 years ago
@retire05: Keep in mind, it wasn’t just McCain that turned his back. It was every president and 99.9% of the members in Congress since that war ended who turned their backs.
Our time to have made a positive difference in Syria has long gone. The time to have done something was when it first started. We slept and AQ filled the gap. Another case of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure going to the wayside. We are becoming quite good at it.
The maps shown speak volumes. Thanks.
How about comparing a U.S. election results map with a crime rate map?
Or would that just show that where Democrats win elections (like Los Angeles and Chicago) the crime rate is higher there and you don’t want to risk that honesty?
This map suggests to me the Irish/English and yes The Portugese got it right. No guns–let’s settle it in THE PUBS.
Honorable mention to India and China.
@Richard Wheeler: Unless I’m color blind, it seems to me that the color of the U.S. is the same as England, Ireland, Portugal, China, and India despite the much higher rate of gun ownership here. I’d rather keep my all of my Constitutional rights including the Second which was designed to protect all of the others.
@another vet: Not the same color on gun ownership. Suggests homicide rate can be low without armed citizenry.
"2ND protects all the others" Your opinion –to me a scary thought.
Semper Fi
@Richard Wheeler:
The 2nd Amendment doesn’t have the caveat “unless it scares Richard Wheeler.” Sorry.
@retire05: I’ m O.K with the 2nd Amendment.To say it’s NEEDED to protect all our Constitutional Rights–sounds like Cowboy Diplomacy. Unneeded hyperbole.
@Richard Wheeler:
Well then, I guess those Founders, who wrote the Second Amendment and insisted that it be included in the Bill of Rights were all “cowboys” ( a term you seem to use as a pejorative). Too bad you don’t have some “cowboy” values.
I might remind you that Chris Kyle, a man whose boots you are not fit to shine, was a “cowboy” before he was America’s record breaking sniper. Take your insults about “cowboys” and shove them where the sun never shines.
@retire05: Got nothing against real cowboys Wing tipped Connecticut Yankee GWB was a poseur. Chris Kyle a great man. Spielberg has movie about him in the works.
@Richard Wheeler:
Yet you use the word “cowboy” as a pejorative.
He was the real McCoy compared to the poseur that now occupies the Oval Office.
@Richard Wheeler:
Nowhere near as scary as people who would be willing to give up their rights for freebies. I bet you a bunch of the Jews at places like Jozefow wish they would have had been armed.
Why do you think the 2nd Amendment was put in there?
@another vet: Vet, The more posts I see of Richard Wheeler, the more I think his military service claims are bogus. No one could have been in any of the countries we have been in and seen the things we have seen and have his views unless we had some mental deficiencies.
@Randy: Randy That’s a nasty claim. Aye has my DD-214 which shows my service as a Marine Officer in RVN 67-68. –awarded Navy Comm. with combar “V”
True enough I’ve never been where you’ve served.
A.V. Here’s my thoughts. At Camp Pendleton I served as a Range Officer and was proficient in weapons ranging from M-60 to 45cal pistol. I believe a substantial % of Americans who own or have direct access to guns are not properly trained in their usage –am I wrong?
I don’t think any citizen has a need for an AK-47 which I’ ve had fired at me.
@Richard Wheeler:
A greater percentage of Amerians who own or have direct access to cars are not properly trained in their usage. Should we put restrictions on vehicle ownership using your standards?
Which part of the Second Amendment addresses “need?”
@Randy: The puzzling part to me, is how after all of the evidence that has been posted here by john galt and others, clearly showing what the intent of the 2nd Amendment was, he could still say it was a matter of opinion that the 2nd Amendment was to safeguard to the rest, those being our liberties. It wasn’t an opinion, it was a statement of verifiable historical fact. It’ll be interesting to see what he feels the reason for the amendment was.
Another little historical tid bit. Even the Dred Scott decision acknowledged that if blacks were free, they would have the right to keep and bear arms and to take them wherever they go. Check out page 60 US 417.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/60/393/case.html
@Richard Wheeler: I don’t know how I can re-phrase my question. You stated that it was a matter of opinion that the 2nd Amendment was put in there to safe guard the rest. I’m not going to go back and repost everything that johngalt and others have posted here proving that fact. If the 2nd Amendment wasn’t put in there to protect our rights from tyranny, then why do you think it was it put in there?
@Richard Wheeler:
That is a matter of opinion. Given that the shooting sports are some of the safest out there, I would have to say you are wrong. Please provide evidence to support your claim. I’m not saying that there aren’t yahoos out there with guns. I actually got off the range a month ago because the couple next me didn’t know what the hell they were doing. They were the exception rather than the norm.
I’ve had AK’s, mortars, rockets, and missiles that Saddam Hussein had that your side of the aisle said he didn’t have, shot at me as well. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.
@another vet: I understand your belief that the 2nd protects ALL our Constitutional Rights—I’M O.K. with that.
Your range experience is an example of my concerns. Better training,safeguards including locking features would help. Let’s at least acknowledge the excessive violence of citizenry in our country(as evidenced by the map) should be a concern—not just collateral damage.
Thanks for your service—–The Colonel as well.
btw Their are some good Dem. vets out there like Jim Webb–
@Randy: I think the reason why we see things different than Rich, aside from just having political differences, is that the war he was in was different than the one we were in. He was fighting to defend a government from communist aggressors. We were there to liberate a people from a tyrant and his government. Like those who freed Europe from Hitler, we saw first hand the ugliness of a totalitarian government. He didn’t.
@Richard Wheeler:
Really, would this be the same Jim Webb whose aid got busted for carrying an illegal firearm inside the city limits of Washington, D.C.? The same Jim Webb who claimed that the firearm belonged to the aid, and only after the charges were dismissed, finally admitted the gun was his own?
No surprise that you would think a liar, who’se goal was to cover his ass at the expense of the aid, is a “good Dem.”
@Richard Wheeler: The violence in this country is not due to guns like the left claims. It is heavily concentrated in gang run urban black neighborhoods. I’m not going to repost the FBI crime stats again proving the point. You’ll have to look those up yourself. If you were to adjust for that, this country wouldn’t be as violent. In contrast, some of the areas with the lowest violent crime rates are also black areas so race is not the cause. Seems to me that the issue is the gang infested urban areas. If urbanites can’t control themselves (and those are all solid blue in color), why should the rest of us have to adjust?
Jim Webb is an exception to the Democrats. Ditto for Bob Kerrey. I’d be interested to see the real reason Webb chose not to run again. A good bet is that his party shifted too far to the left. The bulk of the Party is more in line with Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry (whom I have ZERO respect for regardless if his medals are legit or not), and Durbin.
@another vet:
Part of the reason that Webb decided to not run again was because he knew the laws of D.C. when it came to firearms, then lied that the firearm his aide was busted for was not really his and didn’t admit that until the case against the aide was dropped. That would have been pure campaign ammunition for his Republican opponent, and he knew it. Webb proved he was not man enough to own up to his own elitism, thinking D.C.’s gun laws were just for the little people, and not some elitist Democrat.
Just because someone shows honor and valor while in the military doesn’t absolve them from their actions once they are out. I would point you to both John Kerry and John McCain, who rode their military service to office. They are nothing more than modern day Benedict Arnolds who had great valor in war but then turned traitor to the very nation they fought for.
@retire05: To call John MeCain a “Benedict Arnold” is pretty sleazy even for you.
@Richard Wheeler:
I base my comments on McCain on his Senate career, not his Naval career. Do you think the vet that killed Chris Kyle should still be considered a war hero?
@retire05: His Senate career may not be in accord with your wants but to call him a traitor? That B.S. won’t fly with 95% of the American people. You’re on a shaky limb looking for further electoral thrashings.
@Richard Wheeler:
John McCain has done more things that are adverse to the American people than I can list. He held immense hatred for John Kerry, but once they took a trip to Vietnam, and McCain turned his back on the POWs that were still there, in spite of valid intel that POWs still remained, he lost me. Nevermind that he and Kerry claimed there were no remaining POWs when they got back, and Kerry’s brother-in-law got a contract for a deep water port in Vietnam shortly after.
McCain is, and was, for sale. To the highest bidder. He admitted he provided classified intel to the NVC in his book, and said he was sorry for that. Did you ever pause to question why his Hanoi Hilton classmates didn’t come out for him in any of his presidential bids en masse?
Perhaps you should ask Sam Johnson.
The man who murdered Chris Kyle was considered a war hero. He served his nation honorably, and came back damaged. I ask you again, do you think he should be still considered a hero? Does his service to this nation absolve him from the bad things he did?
Honorable service is not a “get out of jail free” card, Richard.
@retire05: “provided classified intel to NVC” after being tortured!! you sanctimonious old hag.
@retire05:
Did you vote for the McCain/Palin ticket for president/vice president in 2008?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
@Aye:
Yes. I would have voted for a dead chubracabra over Obama. Oh, wait, I did.
@retire05:
So….you consider him to be a “traitor” but you voted for him for president anyway.
Nothing like standing strong on your principles, eh?
@Aye:
I didn’t not vote for McCain, or Romney, in the primaries. But like all American voters, in November I was left with only two choices; McCain or Obama. Would you have preferred I a) voted for Obama or b) did not exercise my right to vote as a protest and allow Obama to win because of it?
Sometimes, Aye, we are forced to pick the lesser of two evils.
And what did you do? Did you vote for McCain, knowing he’s a RINO; did you vote for Obama knowing he’s a Marxist or did you sit it out letting McCain lose because of people that sat it out?
@retire05:
Who I voted for, or didn’t vote for, is irrelevant to this discussion because I’m not the one who has been prancing ’round this thread claiming that McCain is a “traitor”. That would be you.
The problem you have is that, once again, you’ve been caught running off at the keyboard.
You claim the man is a “traitor” to the country…yet you voted for him. You either a) don’t really consider him to be a “traitor” or b) you don’t think that it matters.
Those are the only two possibilities.
Congratulations. You’ve exposed yourself once again.
@retire05: The lying would have obviously hurt Webb however, given that he would have been running in pro gun state Virginia, snubbing D.C. gun laws may have actually garnered him votes. As for the other two, John Kerry = Jane Fonda in my book meaning he is a low life piece of shit whom I have no use for. As for McCain, while I disagree with what he did by dropping the VN POW issue, he gave us unwavering support in Iraq when it was politically expedient to abandon the troops. As such, even though I disagree with him on other issues and believe he has worn out his welcome in Congress like a number of other career politicians and he needs to retire, I don’t believe he ever betrayed me or any else serving in GWOT.
@Aye:
I see. In other words, you’re too cowardly to answer the question.
Consider yourself an excellent example to follow.
I had a choice between McCain and a Marxist. What was your choice? Oh, that’s right. You will obfuscate in order to not answer.
.
Bet you know a lot about exposing one’s self. Do you perfer shopping malls or drive in fast food diners?
@another vet:
Did you read McCain’s book? Do you know that he admits he gave sensitive material to the NVC? Do you know that he received special medical treatment in NVN when others, like Stockdale and Johnson, did not? Did you ever ask yourself why the Hanoi Hilton alumnii did not back McCain? Especially Sam Johnson who remains in Congress?
Choosing McCain over Obama was like choosing Benedict Arnold over King George. Which one would you have picked?
@retire05: I voted for McCain without reservation. I was on my second tour in Iraq that year. Had I been home, there would have been a McCain/Palin bumper sticker on my pick-up just like there was a Bush/Cheney one on in 2004 even though I voted for Harry Browne (L) in 2000. It really irritates the lefties in Illinois to have bumper stickers that don’t support the dems. Kind of fun.
As for the POW issue, and I’m not trying to make excuses for anyone, I believe once the decision is made to send Americans into harm’s way we owe it to them to ensure full support for their efforts and to ensure that each is accounted for at the end of the war. Leave no one behind. The way to achieve that is total victory. In this country, the military doesn’t decide when to start and stop wars. The politicians do. VN wasn’t the only war where we left POW’s behind. There was ample evidence that we did so in Europe at the end of WWII and in Korea. In both cases our POW’s ended up in Soviet camps. Why? Because the pols didn’t see the wars though to their conclusions. WWII didn’t rid Europe of oppression. As a matter of fact, Europe was more oppressed after the war than before it because we gave Stalin half the continent. The only sure fire way to have made sure all of the POW’s would have come home would have been to take Patton’s advice and finish off “Uncle Joe” as FDR so fondly called him. Same goes for VN. The only way to have made sure all the POW’s came back would have been to finish off N. Vietnam, meaning an invasion of NV. In both cases, our politicians who got us into those wars, didn’t see them through to the end for political reasons. Disgusting as it may be, that’s what happened. It’s a dark side to our recent history that no one likes to talk about.
@another vet:
I did not. I knew he was a RINO, his record proves that. And I also knew he was the worst the GOP could have possibly offered. But he was the lesser of two evils, as I said.
I agree with everything you said. But the fact remains, McCain turned his back on POWs left in VN. And no amount of political posturing can remove that fact.
Now McCain is advocating us getting involved in Syria. There are no good guys in Syria. None. Assaud is a butcher and a dictator and the opposition is AQ or AQ spin-offs. Our Middle East policy coming out of the Oval Office is a disaster. We are simply deposing dictators that also feared AQ so that AQ, or the Muslim Brotherhood which was the seed that AQ grew out of, are taking power. It will come back to bite us.
@retire05: Keep in mind, it wasn’t just McCain that turned his back. It was every president and 99.9% of the members in Congress since that war ended who turned their backs.
Our time to have made a positive difference in Syria has long gone. The time to have done something was when it first started. We slept and AQ filled the gap. Another case of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure going to the wayside. We are becoming quite good at it.