Waterboarding Hypocrisy?

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In this video released Thursday, a Kurdish Iraqi persh merga soldier is shown in an orange jumpsuit before Islamic State militants executed him. (YouTube screen grab)
In this video released Thursday, a Kurdish Iraqi persh merga soldier is shown in an orange jumpsuit before Islamic State militants executed him. (YouTube screen grab)

The hunt for James Foley’s killer:

On Sunday, the British ambassador to the United States said Britain was close to identifying Foley’s killer.

A number of possible identities have been suggested by British media although sources on both sides of the Atlantic have told Reuters that there was little likelihood of the British government naming the suspect imminently.

On Thursday, the Washington Post reported that Foley and at least 3 other captives are known to have been waterboarded:

At least four hostages held in Syria by the Islamic State, including an American journalist who was recently executed by the group, were waterboarded in the early part of their captivity, according to people familiar with the treatment of the kidnapped Westerners.

James Foley was among the four who were waterboarded several times by Islamic State militants who appeared to model the technique on the CIA’s use of waterboarding to interrogate suspected terrorists after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

I can believe America’s enemies probably were inspired to waterboard because of all the media hype and hysteria over the issue; but I find it difficult to believe it was modeled with the same exact guidelines that the CIA were restricted to operate under, including time limit and doctor-supervised. And it absolutely did not serve the same purpose: The CIA used it (on only 3, worst of the worst HVDs) not for the purposes of confessions or obtaining information- but to induce a state of cooperation by making the HVDs feel that their situation was hopeless and could only be made better by working with the CIA debriefers. For ISIS, does anyone doubt waterboarding was performed merely for the sake of gratuitous pleasure? Certainly they weren’t doing it because Foley or the other captives had intelligence information on them that could save the lives of Muslim civilians who might be attacked by the West.

“ISIL is a group that routinely crucifies and beheads people,” said a U.S. official, using one of the acronyms for the Islamic State. “To suggest that there is any correlation between ISIL’s brutality and past U.S. actions is ridiculous and feeds into their twisted propaganda.”

The blame-Bush Firsters are drawing the correlation; and calling out hypocrisy because the Bush Justice Department did not call waterboarding torture when our CIA did it; yet we are ready to label it exactly that when it has been done by Islamic terrorists. Perhaps they do have a point there. However, even had the CIA never operated a Detention and Interrogation Program that incorporated “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”- mischaracterized as being far worse and far more severe than they were- does anyone really believe that these global jihadis are only “acting out” and torturing people (American, Sunni Muslim, Shia Muslim- you name it!) because of the CIA, GITMO, and abu Ghraib? (and of what good would releasing photos at this time in history, serve, aside from jihadi propaganda and recruitment?) Even in the absence of American abuses and scandals, these perverse Islamist terrorists would still be torturing and executing with gruesome violence.

“They [Islamic State militants] believe these actions serve them,” said Scott Stewart, vice-president of tactical analysis for the geopolitical intelligence firm Stratfor.

“For months, they’ve been beheading, amputating the hands of thieves, crucifying people in areas they control in Syria,” said Stewart, a former special agent with the U.S. State Department who was involved in hundreds of terrorism investigations.

“Despite these barbaric displays … it’s been successful. They’ve been able to grow and flourish, and they have been able to attract people to their cause despite this barbarity — perhaps because of it.”

Meanwhile, the Senate Intelligence Committee is expected to release their 6,200 page, 5 year “torture” report for the general public (and America’s enemies) consumption. It will happen, though, in the absence of Republican participation, as well as being without the input of the very people intimately involved in the CIA Program- the interrogators and CIA officials themselves.

Of what possible good does this do for America? It only reignites partisan divisions and provides propaganda for America’s enemies. It will not lead to the criminal prosecution of President Bush or anyone involved with the Bush Administration, the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, or with any CIA officials. Nor will it help us move past this by “owning up to the sins of our past”. Waterboarding (of only 3 HVDs- the worst of the worst) as a CIA practice effectively was ended not by President Obama but in 2006 under Bush; and no HVD had been waterboarded since 2003.

And putting aside, for a moment, the controversy over whether or not the CIA Detention and Interrogation Program (specifically those who received EIT treatment- about 30 of the 100 in the CIA program) yielded any results and actionable intelligence, let’s pretend, shall we, that we have an ISIS captive, known to have beheaded and crucified others, believed to have knowledge of the whereabouts of current ISIS captives as well as the name and location of Foley’s executioner. He’s been trained to resist standard interrogation practices. Would any of you protest were he subjected to something as harsh as waterboarding (again, put aside for a moment the question of whether or not it or any of the other EITs obtained positive results)?

Would any of you shed a tear of guilt or feel we’ve sacrificed our values were we to waterboard Foley’s killer to induce a state of cooperation in him, in order to debrief him for intelligence information on his colleagues? In order to save lives?

One of the 3 HVTs in CIA custody who received the waterboard treatment is KSM. KSM, for anyone with short memory, beheaded another journalist. Daniel Pearl. It’s confirmed. This happened before OIF. Before Abu Ghraib. Before the CIA Detention and Interrogation Program and EITs. Nothing the CIA could possibly have done to KSM amounts to this level of barbarism.

But lets keep wringing our hands over abu Ghraib photos of 10 years ago; let’s keep lamenting over CIA waterboarding (of only 3 HVTs!), release a partisan investigation; let’s blame Bush and Cheney for the waterboarding of Foley and for the rise of ISIS; and let’s keep bellyaching over why they aren’t being tried as war criminals.

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If the CIA did waterboarding under Bush, that is a crime.
If ISIL did waterboarding under Obama, that is perfectly legal.
Bush is Christian and this is criminal in Islam.
Severe punishment and death is part of Islam, and Obama is Muslim.
So there is a difference.

Going to war without an objective (Victory) and the commitment to carry through to victory is immoral and a waste of American lives. Wars should not be micro-managed by the Democrat press or indecisive politicians with questionable loyalties. Wars and American lives should never be waged by politicians to improve political positions nor the vanities of presidents. Until we are ready to engage in wars to win, i.e. WWII, we should not waste another American life.

With it being a cold hard fact that the end goal is the elimination of Christians, Jews and all who oppose the radical Islamic agenda, my Jewish side especially is crying out “blow these bastards straight to hell!”

Yet Skook is correct in every word he says above. Since Korea and on to now, blithering blowhards have sent our sons and daughters to war and have in turn not allowed them to do their jobs (that’s my nice way of putting it). In turn we have allowed these cancers on humanity to fester and grow until we now have the current situation.

Make no mistake about this. Whether we like it or not, in effect war has been declared against Christians, Jews and most of all, Western Civilization as a whole. It is also apparent that our current President doesn’t give one damn about the genocide that is beginning to occur, especially against Christians at this moment. One can bet his or her sweet ass however that if he thinks he can save his sorry legacy in his mind, he’ll do something that he calls “taking action”. And he sure as hell, as evidenced by his incompetent asinine action of the last six years will “side with his Muslim brethren if the winds turn ill” as he himself stated in his own words. This man hates America and everything we stand for and sure as hell hates the Christians and the Jews!

So here is the dilemma. We either pussy foot as we have been, possibly going into a “limited action” as these morons call it and waste more of our brave brothers and sisters in arms for nothing, we sit back and do nothing, in effect allow Israel to be overrun,we allow a Christian genocide that has started and curiously is never even mentioned by the leftist scum that controls this country and the media and in turn we are willing in the end to give up our freedoms and ideals to the scum that is radical Islam! Or we get our heads out of our collective asses, Blow these bastards back into the Stone age and beyond and in effect stop this cancer in it’s tracks!

If we engage, let our soldiers fight the wars and have the political scum that slithers through the halls of government stay the hell out of the way! Short of that, until “We The People” force our elected officials to allow our troops to WIN, Skook is dead on!

“For months, they’ve been beheading, amputating the hands of thieves, crucifying people in areas they control in Syria,” said Stewart, a former special agent with the U.S. State Department who was involved in hundreds of terrorism investigations.
“Despite these barbaric displays … it’s been successful. They’ve been able to grow and flourish, and they have been able to attract people to their cause despite this barbarity — perhaps because of it.”

Scott Stewart, vice-president of tactical analysis for the geopolitical intelligence firm Stratfor is hinting at the truth from around the edges.
ISIS has been terrorizing people into joining up with them.
If you only have two choices: fight against ISIS or fight for ISIS you weigh your chances for a longer life.
Trying to sit on the sidelines with ISIS absolutely does NOT work.
So, which way to fight?
Joining up has the better chance to live longer.
Simple as that.
Remember the Italians in WWII.
Weak people side with the strong horse, even when they have to change horses every now and then.
ISIS has the Koran to bang people over the heads with in the case of their newly controlled Muslim areas.
There’s an old original Star Trek where a few of the commanders got switched in the transporter over to an evil, sadistic Enterprise from a parallel universe. At the end, the point was made that it was much easier to pretend to be cruel for the our staff than it was for the cruel staff to try to fit into a civilized crew.
ISIS is sitting on a huge population of people who are merely going along to get along.
They would quit if it were safe to do so.

PS. note Obama wants people to call it ISIL, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
The ”Levant” includes Syrian, Lebanon, Jordan and ISRAEL.
ISIS (Islamic state of Iraq and Sryia) had changed it’s name twice since it used ISIL.
Now it refers to itself simply as the IS (Islamic State).
Odd that Obama wants IS to include a desire to take Israel, when IS has dropped that part off its name some time back.

Thankfully, GWOT is over with since “Obama killed Osama” as the left loves to tell us.

http://wgntv.com/2014/08/21/photo-implies-isis-threat-to-chicago/

@Skook: FDR gave Marshall(Chief of Staff) full control of WWII. In 4 years the end result was 2 outstanding victories. Bush the elder gave Powell( Chief of Staff) and Swartzkopf( Theatre Chief) free rein and the result was probably the most decisive campaign ever designed and operated. Your precedent, leading with his behind, told Netanyahu to accept the 50 day cease fire or lose American backing. When politicians meddle, victory is beyond the horizon. Throw in the corrupt UN, you have stalemate and a war that never ends.

Have any of you looked at Roman history? Various forms of waterboarding were use to relieve individuals of information. China used it 1500 BC.
It is obvious that very few of you were in Vietnam in the late 60’s, waterboarding was very popular incentive for informational gathering next to skinning a human.
Carry waterboarding to far to the left and it become a form of hypoxia erotica and death.

@MOS #8541: When I suggest we only go to war to win, I didn’t rule out any interrogation techniques. If being cruel saves the life of one of our soldiers, airmen, sailors, or Marines, it is damn sure worth it and to Hell with the people who get all melodramatic. They are the same ones who want us to fight according to a chivalric code that only exists in the heads of Liberals and the Obamanation, but they can’t win wars. Their definition of a just war prevents them from winning, and our warriors are damned to defeat before they begin.

If we aren’t in it to win, don’t get involved. Winning a war halfway and quitting because your president wants to preen his feathers is like gut shooting a Grizzly. You are going to have big problems and soon.

General Phillip Sheridan: “The more we kill this year, the fewer we will have to kill next year.”

Islamic terrorists are like fire ants. You are not going to reason with them, make peace with them or leave them alone and they’ll leave you alone. Fire ants, unchecked, will continue to grow their colonies and territories… and eventually, when you least expect it, you are standing in one and they are stinging the shit out of you feet, legs and waist.

I wonder if Amdro works on ISIS? Well, not to worry; B-52’s, B-1’s, B-2’s and JDAM’s work just as well. As General Stonewall Jackson declared was the only way to deal with the rampaging Union army that looted Fredricksburg: “Kill them. Kill them all.” Until we have a leader that understands this, we are in decline and at risk.

Damn Bill, that was the best comparison ever… Islamic terrorist = fire ants. True, very friggin’ true.

When I posted this,there was only persons stating grossly cruel and oddly wanting to sound right wing and hawkish; malevolent genocidal talking people. I question if any has been in a conflict or war,mor even the military domestically. Some made claims to be Christains or Jews, as well. I want to say, if the. USA must be in the Middle East in a military capacity it doesn’t need to water board anyone (ever), it is an embarrassment. It profits out that some here are that frightened and decadent or amoral. It is more than embarrassment — it is a crime and it should be held as a crime and punished as one; the punishment should be swift president or CIA operative or anyone including a doctor presiding should be punished commensurate with their involvement and by a jury if their peers.

There have been many who gave their lives for ideals such as freedoms, to protect the weak, to do the good thing — if you blur the lines so badly a USA representative as a combatant or a journalist is seen in another light then as a crusader and criminal then this is what to expect — there is no hypocrisy, water boarding is torture and is a week minds tool. If these persons were guilty and do not respond to threat of death to persuade them to divulge their ‘secrets’ then it is appropriate to give them that — kill them, swiftly and justly; not torture them. We can win a struggle though not if we are wrong and we have no reason inflicting an ideology on another people. I don’t see is
Islamic Law or Christian Radicalism as “law”, it is folly of vanity and cruelties, it is arcane and uncivilized. Greater things you will do in my name”, might never have meant a mystical thing and likely didn’; it likely meant we would evolve as we should be evolving over time being exposed to Christs teachings. We will be known by our fruits, and we are judge by those fruits. If you have to kill don’t seek glory in it; it is an inglorious act, naturally. If we promote that “we are good” we must actually live as though we are good and not leave any question to that.
You people who do glory in cruelty or suspect that our goals outweigh another’s or another’s national sovereignty is the epitome of inhumanity. Commenters sound ignorant professing that we have some right to the expedience of cruelty, inhumane cruelty (torture) is never a right action. I abhor the lethality of the sword, I imagine that there is a time that it apparently is yet required; it should be used with reason and just cause only.

Apologies for spell checker errors, and my own errors — these are mostly my own words and not those of a great prophet or God himself and no one should portray that they represent God on Earth or are His spokesmans. I am certain and do believe that God does not need and rather doesn’t want self appointed representatives. If God has want to express His will He has every option to wipe out lives and have us start again and so on until we get right. This is the problem, experts and pundits who are neither and are often just persons who imagine themselves as knowing or are usurpers themselves (often in the guise if the representatives of the people).

@Skook:
Agree fully. To bad the fool doesn’t understand.

It always seems like everyone here thinks that someone else (Obama) to tell other people ( the US military) to do what they themselves choose not to do
Want politicians to take notice ? Go on over and fight ISIS
40% of all deployed are now claiming disability, how many are you willing to send?
From what we read in the media foreign jihadists are going over to fight, when are Christian crusaders going to do the same ?

@Dread: If you were ever put in a position of command, a rifle platoon or company, would you be willing to sacrifice your command for the welfare of a captive who knew of the means to destroy your command?

Would you be willing to sacrifice every man in your command, 60 to 250, to protect the welfare of an enemy combatant?

Some officers value their career more than the welfare of their men, some are frightened to death by UN Rules of Engagement, some will die before they compromise the lives of their men, so don’t be evasive, just answer the question.

Some officers will be proud of the fact that they refused to get the information that would have saved their command when it was available and before the lives of 250 men were snuffed out. They can hold their heads up in pride while they tell the widows and orphans of the 250 men that were sacrificed to uphold some recent chivalric code that was adopted by leaders who don’t want win wars or be war time leaders.

@Dread: Let’s do another scenario; since, you seem to be devoid of any knowledge of the military and would be more likely to function well in the role of a bumbling buffoon politician, like our president.

Imagine being in Golf Cart One and you receive word that a nuclear device has been placed in the center of Dallas Texas. You have the ringleader, but he refuses to give up the location and gloats in the fact that you have 120 minutes until the device detonates.

Your choices as an Obamanite are:

Invite the terrorist to play 18 holes with you

Tell the CIA to get the location and disarm or neutralize the bomb

Tell the people of Dallas to get out of town

We realize the new emphasis placed on golfing during emergencies, don’t be reluctant to golf with our enemies, if you can win him over on Golf Cart 1, the problem can be defused, you will have a new golfing buddy and the Jihadist world and the Left will love you.

I obviously offended you,good !
No, I won’t suppose something hypothetical and as inane and jejune as you ‘d like to fabricate to foist your deeply seated to need justify wrong acts while portraying as being for some supposed greater good; which is exactly what I have stated –” doesn’t work”. It is wrong to torture, plainly said it seems odd to me that I need even say that. The way I feel about your parent s should have taught you that. If not it should be your natural instinct.

That you see me as if a politician or your do nothing president is only more hyperbolic foolishness. Discourse is never something you wanted but to either teach me or impose your belief system which I have already openly stated is flawed and was sincerely hoping a reader might consider , rather I think now perhaps a reader who already felt as I do might take some courage and stand up for what is obviously is the right curse of action and decry torture openly and lousy; opposing in any instance and certainly never as in a hypothetical — we have not a hypothetical problem. It may be said that we have this problem because we have acted wrongly though I do not believe that — though at no time can we say that we have not acted barbarously by our own standards which you attempt even now to decay and justify as does the author of the article.
Shame on you and those like you.

@Skookum: Skook, you forgot one important calculus in Obama’s math:
How many Dems are in Dallas VS how many Reps are there.
IF, and only if, the Dems far outweigh the Reps Obama will probably act within the two hours.
But if it were a Rep stronghold he would let it go up while he dithered over a plan.
Cynical, I know.

@Dread: Offended? Now, you have given yourself far more credit than you deserve. I have been here, on this blog, for several years, and occasionally we have people with ideas, who can express themselves well. You and your ideas are lost in a chaotic mass of confusion, that even the lowly semicolon cannot hope to unscramble.

Your use of the semicolon was noble, maybe even courageous for you; however, you will still need to learn basic sentence structure if you want people to make sense of your rants. Chaotic writing, poorly constructed sentences, and run on sentences are the elements of a befuddled or undisciplined mind. The rules are simple and available to anyone who cares to learn, but trying to browbeat people with prose that reads like nonsense reflects the attitude of a fool. The people who believe in your nonsense will not take the time to read your writing, and the people who oppose you, consider you to be little more than a nuisance.

You are in the deep end of the pool, where sharks swim and play. There are blogs who will consider you to be a great thinker and a humanist for the ages; unfortunately, their grasp of English and ability to express themselves will be little better than what you have to offer. These are the boards where you will be most effective. You are wasting your time here, but more importantly, you are wasting our time.

@Skook:
Dead on again! War is hell and anything goes. How convenient it is as to how mankind has forgotten the Nazi’s, Japanese and so many others in past wars who did not give one damn about Geneva Convention like rules and so forth. Take one look at the animals that populate the Islamic Radicals and remember they do not play by the rules!

@Dread: Ugh…

Cutting through your overwrought and verbose posts, you seem to be just another liberal bigot that is here to vent, safely from behind your computer.

There are arguments for and against water-boarding, and while you have your opinion, it is not in your right to steamroll others while projecting self-righteously. And like many libs, you are far more guilty of imposing your belief system on others than those you claim to combat.

The water-boarding controversy is all about fabricating the kind of enemy the libs want, not truth. I’ve not heard the kind of liberal public outrage at Obama’s use of drones to kill Americans and civilians. No, your outrage at water-boarding is complete bullshit — you’re just using it for your own agenda.

Seriously, you’re a tool and out of touch with reality, and the media/dems exploited this during the Bush years with the waterboarding exaggerations. Can you guarantee me that under Obama’s admin, no one has been tortured? You can’t.

Bush had one of the most transparent admins in history, and Obama one of the least. Libs have waged a culture war, and no amount of scrutiny, no about of rational thought and reason will show them just how hypocritical they are.

It’s wrong to kill people. Didn’t you learn that in school? Yet your leader is killing people with bombs and drones. I’m sure you’ll give the appropriate level of outrage (way, way beyond that give to the three waterboardings that used techniques we use on our own people for interrogation training) and start rejecting Obama on the level he deserves.

Off you go! I’m sure you will have a bigger audience at Huffpo and the like.

Oh, and shame on you, you intellectualizing turd. You have nothing to offer this discussion, so don’t. I don’t agree with the “anything goes in war” doctrine, but I’m not calling those who disagree with me the “epitome of inhumanity”. I’ll be polite and not comment on that . . .

@Dread: I don’t do this often. Captain, 1 ENG. co.-officer commanding. Bosnia 1993. We killed 33 Muslims of the Bosnian Special Forces who were killing unarmed Serbs. They were chasing these farmers into their homes and killing them with flame throwers. We told the UN idiots to screw off, and lit up the Bosnian vehicles with mortars. We were supporting the PPCLI and they loved it. There were secondary explosions all over the place but especially in our prearranged choke point. We didn’t enjoy the aftermath. Killing is no fun.
Canadian Joint Task Forces, today, have to train with the water boarding” experience”, gas , anti vehicle, counter terrorism, etc. You can stuff your holier than thou attitude. Go join Code Pink.

Just a brief follow up as to my earlier comment. Over at The Feral Irishman site, I stumbled across this letter written by an active Green Beret, thus his name has been with held. As I said earlier, if we have to go over there, let our people do their jobs! I include the first couple of paragraphs and the last two as it is quite long. None the less, please note. Our men and women in arms want to finish the job if ordered into any kind of combat and from what I can tell, have about had it with know nothing morons binding their hands and preventing them from that goal!

The writer of this letter is still an active US Army Special Forces member therefore, his name is being withheld. However, his opinion is the farthest thing from being held back- Via The Havok Journal
________________________________________

“To the political leaders of America,

I write to you today regarding my concerns about the current state in which we find our beloved planet and your efforts in resolving the many issues we face.

Over the last decade, we have managed to allow our mighty position at the head of the table to dwindle down to a seat at the kids table, with our counsel being received as if it were that of a child making a suggestion on how to cure the world of evil: everyone thinks it is adorable, but no one takes it seriously.
To put it politely, you all are about as successful in global politics as an overweight middle-aged American with a severe case of tetanus trying to perform fellatio on himself.

Understanding that you have the attention span of indigenous forces undergoing rifle training, I give you the options of either reading this letter in its entirety or simply skipping to the last two paragraphs.

It is time to unleash the hounds. You have had over a decade of war filled with warriors that would gladly step up and fight. These former service members are battle hardened and ready. More importantly, they understand the game. We stand at the gates, waiting to smite all that is evil in this world. You will not defeat the current evils in this world by playing your political chess games because it is spreading at an alarming rate. Unleash us. Back us. Stand behind us.

History has shown us that evil is only successful when the righteous stand aside and do nothing. Let us show the world that it will not tolerate the likes of ISIS or Boko Haram. That there most certainly are repercussions for committing atrocities. Justice will come to them swift and brutal. Step aside and let us do what is necessary! We stand ready!”

In answer to John, if a president or anyone told me to water board someone to insure a good outcome for 50-250 people I’d want to ask three questions and I’d then tell them to do it themselves if they are up to it and to accept the consequences of those actions if they are going to break conventions of warfare and alienate their allies.
1. Are you aware that torture further enforces a prisoners resolve, and nothing has been gained previously by torture either in expedience or amount or factually as pertains to the implementation f tortures. (Many experts have stated this as pertains to GITMO) etc.
2. Are you aware it is against niter national law as a war crime; and the probabilities are you’ll be tried for it, and should be?
3. If you will gain nothing from it and it is a crime what are your motivations? (To appear patriotic? Or, as if you are doing your job?

John, I don’t believe that you have shown how or why I should believe that the anticipated goal will be decided by the use of tortures and I have no expectation that anyone under my charge will be in greater safety or otherwise be harmed by my choice in not employing torture or otherwise so I reject your premise. And, do not think chivalry is applicable — it is an arcane idea of a bygone era. I choose not to be insulated by the insuinuoation that my morals would effect in anyway the safety of others. Another way of thinking ought more what do I lose by acting in a barbarous fashion in the way I am perceived by my enemies and my friends or allies in this or future conflicts and in trading, how will this effect my citizens safety abroad and at home? To recapitulate, no good has come from the employ of torture. The problem with the article is that the author sought to undermine a peoples thinking that water boarding is other than wrong but rather is a needed devise; while it is not. It is sad that the people are so deluded as to be unaware that no good ever did come if it that could not be or actually was not gained by conventional interactions and, more conventional interagation techniques in intelligence gathering.

Apologetically, I have no time or inclination to further argue a point I feel you should have been taught by good parenting skills or other education. I have no reason to hypotheticals and hyperbole to be the sounding board for jingoism.

I am okay with your being a murder, that is your chosen profession “oil guy”; my stuffing my holier than though attitude is a negative. I am saying act in accordance with conventions of international law or be advised you will be prosecuted; you rep what you sow.

Rather than argue at me, or slap each other’s backs and proclaim your great value why not read what real soldiers and officers think of water boarding, instead of pundits like yourselves and the author?
Then maybe consider Article Three of the Geneva Convention, hell look at Wikipedia. You won’t change me anymore than the truth will alter your mindset which is apparently of the MTV generation.

“Light them up” and kill this group blah, blah, blah –.i have never heard any soldier speak in that fashion I do see in the other hand as men progress through the ranks and experience in combat they become more caring of human life, educated on foreign policy and posses greater humility. You demean the armed services with the kind of chatter that goes on here and I was misled to consider that there was a viable opinion held on this blog which I thought was comments on the article not a sausage fest. Pink, huh — love it. Try it you’ll probably chasing these guys on this website “floppy asses”.

@Wordsmith:

The purpose wasn’t gratuitous pleasure in delivering physical or psychological pain. The purpose wasn’t even to extract a confession or to glean intelligence information.

Perfect!