Body armor was the red flag [Reader Post]

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It has occurred to me that once again that the left is engaged in another one of its knee-jerk reactions to a horrific event. In the wake of the Aurora shootings, democrats are calling for more gun control.

Below are just a few examples of the Left’s continuing practice of exploiting mass murder to promote their agenda for eliminating gun ownership. As usual, before the families can even recover the bodies of their dead relatives, the Left starts exploiting the situation in their never-ceasing attempt to circumvent the 2nd Amendment via more restrictive gun control laws, .

Only a few hours after a gunman killed 12 people and injured dozens at an Aurora, Colorado midnight premier of the new Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises, CNN started banging the drums for stronger gun laws .

CNN reported that the slimy opportunist, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, ever the dishonorable, limelight seeking politician was on a New York radio station earlier today using the Colorado shootings to call for tighter gun control laws.

Mayor Michael Nutter of Philadelphia appeared on CNN television today saying that President Obama and Mitt Romney need to address the issue of gun control as soon as possible. The hostess of the CNN program where Mayor Nutter was a guest stated that she couldn’t believe that the president and Mr. Romney had commented on the shooting without ever mentioning gun control. It is a silly person that expects Mr. Romney to do anything of the sort.

ABC News began early on pushing the gun control theme.

NBC News and MSNBC didn’t wait long to start campaigning for gun control. They also reported on Philadelphia Mayor Nutter’s comments concerning gun control.

CBS didn’t wait long to join the chorus .

Aurora, Colorado already has strict gun control laws:

How will stricter gun laws bring an end to criminals having guns, when the laws against murder have not been able to stop them from killing innocent people?

Currently in Aurora, Colorado, where the shooting took place, it is already unlawful to carry a concealed “dangerous weapon,” discharge firearms, unless by law enforcement on duty or on shooting range, and have loaded firearm in motor vehicle.

Chicago has strict gun control laws to little effect:

The City of Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Up until a few months ago, it was illegal for a private citizen to own or possess a handgun anywhere within the city, including in one’s own home. For 2010, Chicago also holds another distinction. More Chicago Police Officers were killed by gunfire this year than any other police agency in the nation. The city also boasts one of the highest violent crime rates in the country, with 1 in 89 residents being victims of violent crime last year.

Right now shooting violence is out of control in Chicago. At least a dozen people were shot during the July 4th holiday:

(CBS) CHICAGO – The violence continues in Chicago, with a 10-year-old girl among more than a dozen people shot across the city Tuesday night and early Wednesday, reports CBS Chicago.

There are conflicting reports of the number of people shot, with CBS Chicago counting 16, and the Chicago Tribune counting 15 in the past 24 hours. The Chicago Police Department told Crimesider they could not provide an exact figure.

The girl and a man were with a group of people cooling off from the heat at an open fire hydrant when they were shot about 11:20 p.m. police News Affairs Officer Hector Alfaro said.

The girl, who was reportedly shot in the left wrist and abdomen, was taken to the hospital in critical condition. The man, 24, was shot in the right heel, police said.

It has been a bloody year for the Windy City so far. On Sunday, the Chicago Tribune reported that homicide was up 37 percent in the first half of 2012, and shootings were up nine percent.

Gun control laws seem to be most ineffective where they are the most strict.

But then I read this:

He was dressed head-to-toe in black bullet-proof gear, including helmet, vest, leggings and a groin and throat protector.

And immediately thought of the North Hollywood shootings:

On the morning of February 28, 1997, after months of preparation, including extensive reconnoitering of their intended target—the Bank of America branch located at 6600 Laurel Canyon Boulevard—Phillips and Mătăsăreanu loaded five rifles, one handgun, and approximately 3,300 rounds of ammunition in box and drum magazines into the trunk of their vehicle: two modified Norinco Type 56 S rifles, a modified Norinco Type 56 S-1, a semi automatic HK91 and a modified Bushmaster Dissipator. Phillips also carried a 9mm Beretta Model 92FS INOX).[15] Phillips wore a bulletproof vest and several pieces of home made body armor, covering his groin, shins, thighs, and forearms. Mătăsăreanu wore only a bulletproof vest, but included a metal trauma plate to protect vital organs. Before entering, they took phenobarbital to calm their nerves.[16]

Body armor. Who buys body armor and why? I don’t know any hunters who by body armor. They’re not planning on shooting anything that could shoot back.

We already keep an eye on those who buy fertilizer.

Holmes’ weapons and armor were purchased recently and within a short period of time:

During the attack early Friday, Holmes used the military-style semiautomatic rifle, a shotgun and a pistol to open fire on the unsuspecting theater-goers, Oates. Holmes had bought the weapons at local gun stores within the past two months. He recently purchased 6,000 rounds of ammunition over the Internet, the chief said.

Holmes also bought an urban assault vest, two magazine holders and a knife for just over $300 on July 2 from an online supplier of tactical gear for police and military personnel, according to the company.

Why would someone be buying multiple weapons, large amounts of ammunition AND body armor within a short period of time?

The body armor was the red flag. Had someone been asking the right questions about the body armor this shooting might have been prevented.

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And how do you suggest we solve the problem of innocent people being killed by gun violence—by not selling protective armor in certain circumstances (which is not even used in most cases). How about an honest discussion of a big problem in this country—devoid of political rhetoric.

OK, this will set off some flames, but… If this nut hadn’t laid hands on guns, he would have gone with the plan B that he already was setting up at home. He obviously knew how to create an explosion or two. My guess is that he only chose guns because he could be more directly involved in the destruction and mirror the movie better. Had he not had that option, no doubt he would have “settled” for blowing the place up and most likely would have done even more damage.

What he set up in his apartment tells us more clearly than anything else that guns were not the problem here; the problem was the nut who was bent on violence.

DJ, you are way off base on this one. Just because you can’t see why someone would want or suddenly buy all these items does not make it sinister.

1) Buying body armor, weapons, and ammo is no “red flag”. I buy them all the time.
It can be nothing more than someone getting serious about their safety or simply buying when prices are good.

2) Body armor is an excellent idea for home use in self defense. Masaad Ayoob, a self defense instructor has body armor for just such an ocassion and IIRC, suggests that the average Joe should buy some too.

Sorry, but you do not get to punish the law abiding for what the criminals have done by making the mere purchase of something a “red flag” to be investigated.

OK, YOU SAY:
“The body armor was the red flag. Had someone been asking the right questions about the body armor this shooting might have been prevented.”

*The Only Point I would address here, is whether the purchase of BODY ARMOR, in and of itself, is an act that is alarming enough to “Raise a Red Flag” to the average person.

CAVEAT: I Truly Believe, that law abiding citizens should be allowed to buy body armor, without restriction (and they are in most states).

*”The body armor was the red flag.*
I AGREE, THIS CAN BE A TRUE STATEMENT…AND possibly true about EVERY crime. There is theoretically a point in time in every criminal episode when the crime could have been prevented by observation and quick action. Sometimes we stop them, usually because of a sharp “COP” or Citizen. However, our society has behavioral norms about privacy, so respect for that other person’s privacy will have to be over-ridden to trigger that red flag. Experienced police officers have known this for years. Sometimes it not what a person is saying or doing, but the way the are reacting, the “vibes” they a putting off, that makes that red flag pop up. Also,he may have ordered the body armor on the internet and never was facing a live sales-person, eh?

There was a bombing/mass shooting prevented recently that was halted by a clerk in a Killeen, Texas gun store. The clerk became suspicious of a soldier who came in and bought several pounds of gun power, some ammo and, a pistol magazine. The A.W.O.L. soldier was planning on bombing a restaurant near the entrance to Fort Hood, frequented by soldiers, and shooting the survivors. The clerk, who is also a retired police officer, called and reported the customer to the local police, they investigated and put the brake on the plot, recovering 2 bombs, saving many lives. You won’t see much made of the in the Main-Slime media,but the perp was a Muslim extremist.

Sometimes the bad guy is sloppy or stupid or lazy. In Colorado he was a smart, educated, methodical and zealous slimeball, who planned everything well and didn’t commit any major mistakes (stayed below the radar).

*OK* SPECIFICALLY THE BODY ARMOR
This is an interesting thread (to me), as I have spent thousands of hours sweating in both concealed body armor, and raid jackets; as a law enforcement officer (patrolman and special teams) and police academy firearms instructor/rangemaster).

I’ve never arrested anyone {wearing} body armor, but I’ve “recovered” a lot of it in conjunction with weapons, during arrest, and have seen it in pawnshops, usually in the “back room” where we find the stolen guns. So if the pawn shops (AKA: criminal’s supply store) stock it, criminal will have it. And some of it may even have been pawned by law enforcement officers who no longer needed the old vest (they wear out).
FACT: many law enforcement officers buy their own body armor, especially in smaller departments. I still have a set of “first-gen Second Chance IIa panels that came out of a T-shirt holder (which had turned to rags) and was retired years ago. I was the first officer in my department to wear body armor (late 1970’s). A few more years and that body armor will qualify as antique. Police officers don’t make a lot of money, they usually sell their old body armor.
FACT: second-hand (and new) body armor is available at pawn shops and Ebay. Go to Ebay and search for just the word “body”. The result “body armor” is on the 4th line, click it, it returns 132 PAGES of items.

*Used body armor* is like used tires, and no one wants to have to use it, or tracks where it goes it.
In fact, the “professionals” all know that wearing the same body armor more than (x) years (fill in the “x” with the number on your label), is foolhardy, since it degrades with wear (Police sweat, a lot).
AND, body armor that has been damaged by a ballistic impact (bullet or traffic accident) should never be worn again, but placed in a trophy case in a place of honor (or in my attic, which is where mine is), unless my wife threw it away.

BUT, what about *NEW Body Armor* (also found at Ebay)….
I went looking for COMMERCIAL BODY ARMOR site that would sell to the (CIVILIAN) ME.
I googled “civilian body armor” and came up with a long list of “web stores” that promised to sell me the best, top line, high-speed-low-drag, body armor, on this planet.

I strolled through one promising site, which was well laid out and chock full of info;

WHO THEY MARKET TO (says the site), which will remain un-named, my attorney charges $400/hour.
————————————————————————————-list
*THE SALES SPIEL*
Residents in high-crime areas who have given serious thought as to the several minutes that will elapse between the sound of glass breaking at 3 a.m., and the arrival of police (regardless of the speed of police response there are unavoidable time lags)

Homeowners who have suffered burglaries, or home invasions
Security guards and armored car personnel
Business or property owners who must provide their own security
Convenience store clerks and owners (in fact one of the most dangerous jobs in America)
Taxi drivers (and bus and limo drivers)
Restaurant or bar owners who must make late-night cash deposits
Business owners who must carry large amounts of cash for payrolls, purchasing, auctions, bank deposits, etc.
Jewelry store owners and couriers who must carry valuable merchandise
Emergency Medical Service personnel (EMS)
ATM repairmen (whether or not the ATM is empty, the criminal doesn’t know…)
Alarm system repairmen who often have to investigate tripped alarms
Crime victims or witnesses who fear retribution from criminals, and their accomplices
Victims of stalking
Attorneys in emotionally charged cases (e.g., divorce, child custody, etc.)
Judges
Process / subpoena servers
Merchant Marine security officers
Private boat and yacht owners – piracy has made a comeback on the high seas
High-profile individuals, such as actors, who are the recipients of death threats
Executive protection personnel / bodyguards
Embassy personnel overseas
Executives traveling abroad (and, sadly, to some US cities!)
Missionaries traveling abroad
War correspondents, journalists and photographers in “Hostile Environments”
Citizens with relatives overseas in dangerous countries
Private investigators
Bail bondsmen and bail enforcement agents
Auto repossessors
Concealed Carry License holders
Shooting range personnel and Concealed Carry License instructors
Competitive shooters – or ANYONE who uses a public shooting range…
Hunters
Motorcycle racers, rodeo riders, rodeo clowns (for blunt trauma impact)
Research Scientists, who use animals are the target of radical “animal-rights” groups
Pharmacists (who handle drugs desired by addicts)
and finally, sadly, teachers who have received death threats in some of our nation’s schools
———————————- end of list

OK, Pretty well thought-out list, and a sad comment on the state of our country.
But I didn’t see a category for PETTY CRIMINALS or MASS MURDERERS on the list.
WHO sells to them? Surely no one would?

OH, here’s the solution to that…. they say:
—————————————–
*We Sell ONLY to Law-Abiding Adults* (Oh please, please, don’t lie to us).
Body Armor is a purely defensive item but, regardless, we are very sensitive to the possibility of vests being misused by criminals. By buying a vest from us, you certify that you are law-abiding, of adult age, and have no felony convictions. We do not sell to felons or minors, and it is against the law for a felon to possess Body Armor under both federal law (unless required by your employer, see, Sec. 931) and is also illegal under state law in many states.

We cooperate with law enforcement to stop the use of vests by criminals.

ALSO
————————————————–
*WARNING: U.S. EXPORT CONTROL LAWS*

Level III and IV armor (Rifle Plates) fall under the jurisdiction of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), and is subject to the export control laws of the U.S. Government. Export or retransfer of Rifle Plates by any means to any foreign end user, or for any other end use, whether in the U.S. or abroad, without the written approval of the U.S. Department of State, is prohibited.

There is often an exemption for a U.S. person taking their personal protection with them in their luggage, and returning the armor to the US. For the requirements, click here. One of the forms required may be found here.
—————————
IN SOME STATES

*Residents of Connecticut:*
Are prohibited from buying Body Armor unless the sale is face to face (or unless the buyer is a police officer, Police Department, or military). We cannot ship to residents of Connecticut who are not police or military.

*Residents of Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba:*
We will ask you to provide us documentation of your exemption status, or your Body Armor license before purchasing.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ end of website info

SO, I’m HAPPY, if I’m a convicted Felon or Career Criminal, I can buy my body armor and wear it when I go to WALMART. Because I lied on my sales form. OOOOOH, hope they don’t catch me…. or, BUY it on eBAY, no questions asked.

AND THE REST OF US?
We still have the right to keep and bear arms in most states (how’ s that working out in Chicago, eh?)… NO gun rights, no concealed carry, murder up 37% ?( up from a huge number already).

CONCLUSION: I find that body armor is not controlled (if it was, it would be like trying to outlaw used tires.

OR, leave us alone and let us protect ourselves.
FACT: There were Police all over that theater complex, due to the large crowds, but ol’ Jimbo knew nobody would hear the shots, cuz theater designers budget thousands on sound-proofing.
POLICE were yards away, they heard nothing. He met them in the parking lot, surrendered, nobody accidentally gave him a 3rd eye, shame.

FACT: he actually didn’t NEED body armor, no effective return fire was ever organized against his assault, he walked out and surrendered quietly.

another FACT: the killer had no police record, he was a recognized university scholar (he had a US Govt, NIH grant). They don’t give those to just anyone (do they?)

I worked under a DHS (LE) grant like that back in 2003-2005, and I had to have a background check done by DHS/FBI…… D’oh?

*TRUTH*
When seconds count… the police are minutes away (from a guy who’s been there).

Say a prayer for lost souls!
sorry this got so long!
DQcowboy, happy trails

Just as you can’t idiot proof the world, you can not proof it against evil, or insanity. There is no “solution” to this sort of thing. To disarm everyone as a result of this makes about as much sense as disarming graduate students. How many could he have killed in a confined space with a sword?

People can think themselves into a frenzied circle, but the truth is and always will be that the world is an imperfect place filled with imperfect people. Requiring the universal carrying of firearms would have come closer to limiting the damage than outlawing body armor or guns.

I see no good reason for the ready availability of 100 round magazines. Maybe they should require a special application and licensing, like firearm silencers. Anyone buying one, or maybe a combination of certain such exotic paraphernalia, could get flagged in the database for closer attention.

There would be little difference between that and the DEA monitoring the sale of various precursor chemicals. Certain patterns of purchase can sometimes be highly suggestive of certain intentions.

I agree that you can’t idiot-proof the world, but sometimes it can be idiotic not to pay attention to clues that will look like part of an obvious pattern in retrospect.

@firstHat: Hey you are spot on.
Many people think that you have to have a gun or explosives to kill or maim large groups of people.
Sure, a gun is dangerous, but requires skill to use. Explosives require prep and tech skills (or you blow yourself up) with a little planning, he could have blocked all the fire escape doors and splashed common accelerants on the floor near the theater entrances. Smoke, flames and panic would have done the rest and possibly killed many more people than the actual shooting. Remember the deaths at a soccer game in South America where someone set the bleachers on fire (and it was open, outdoors)… the panic killed 300 and injured 500, many crushed to death.
NO GUNS REQUIRED, just EVIL INTENT.
Pray for the lost souls,
DQcowboy

@Greg:
Fortunately, nowhere in the bill of rights is the term, “if Greg thinks there’s good reason”.

@HardRight: How do you know you weren’t red flagged? Just because someone has a red flag on them doesn’t mean they did something illegal….just suspicious.

You know, a football coach up in Pennsylvania was caught buggering little boys. Why don’t we outlaw football? Also, the DOJ helped send weapons across an international border to known criminals, why don’t we outlaw that?. . . oh. . . wait a minute. . .

@JustAl, #8:

Can you think of any good reason why a civilian needs a 100 round magazine for a semiautomatic weapon? I’m curious what it might be.

I’m not suggesting a ban. Only that such a purchase should be recorded in a database, and that any suspicious patterns should brought to the attention of a human being for review.

Greg: I’m not suggesting a ban. Only that such a purchase should be recorded in a database, and that any suspicious patterns should brought to the attention of a human being for review.

Obviously there is already a record of Holmes’ purchase of the weapons, Greg. But I’m glad to hear you don’t support a ban. Generally that results in only the bad guys being equipped with such weapons, while the good guys haven’t got a chance to be equally equipped.

Ultimately “suspicious patterns” could and should be investigated, but the danger comes from who decides what is “suspicious”, doesn’t it? Nor is there enough manpower to investigate all activities that may be deemed suspicious. Certainly Holmes, with no previous record and under the radar of most people (who thought he was quiet and polite… most seem to be that way), wasn’t going to be raising eyebrows… save for small clues in retrospect. But you also can’t be putting everyone that purchases this type of weapon under precautionary scrutiny. It requires people that see any suspicious activity to report it to the authorities as a heads up. Not a blind sweep of social media on every owner.

For perspective, there’s got to be millions of these weapons, or equivalents, out in the civilian public’s hands, yet the incidents involving them are few. There are more autos that are deadly weapons via accidents than AR 15s. This event is tragic, but you just can’t stop all tragedies from happening. As long as there are humans on earth, this stuff is going to happen.

As for mag capacity and semi-autos, generally your tactical defense is at a disadvantage if you are out gunned by an opponent. Bad guys don’t confine themselves to small arms, so attempting to stand off a well equipped threat with a revolver or small capacity semi auto side arm is uphill unless you are a skilled sniper with the cover and time to do the job with just a few well placed shots. LEOs have had to learn this the hard way.

Greggy,
You completely miss the point. “need” has nothing to do with rights, nothing, nadda, zip. If a citizen wants to buy one, let him.

Can you think of any reason why a golfer “needs” more than one club?, a fisherman more than one “rod”?, a driver more than one car?, a single person more than one room?, more than one TV?, etc. Of course, the framers didn’t think entertainment was a serious enough issue to warrant it’s inclusion in the bill of rights. Not so the right to keep and bear arms (note, not guns, not muskets, . . . arms) and the term “arms” As you can see from the link below, not only are all state and local “gun control” laws un-Constitutional, so are federal laws regarding full auto rifles.

https://illinois.edu/blog/view/25/54098

Retire 05 You buy body armour? Do you use it for protection from the wacko libs here at F.A.?
From Aye Chi’s retorts? Do you only wear it on days ending in “y”?

@JustAl, #12:

Civilians should probably be allowed to own shoulder launched surface to air missiles, too, right?

The point being that any rational person understands that guaranteed rights have limits.

GOLIAD, Texas – A pickup truck overloaded with 23 passengers veered off a highway and crashed into trees in rural South Texas, killing at least 14 people and leaving 10 injured, authorities said.
My question were these people illegals? Will the progs ban pickup trucks or limit their carrying capacity? Or do we call for a data base to record how many people are being packed into a pick up truck at the boarder? Will this interfere with the open boarders agenda?

An “urban assault vest” is not body armor, and your picture is not of body armor. Your picture is of a vest with magazine holders. It is not body armor. It is not bullet-resistant. It’s just a vest. Did this killer actually have real body armor? Or did he just have a scary black vest with pockets? It’s important to know the difference if you expect people to take you seriously.

#17: I was wondering if anyone would point that out.

INRE the OP question about body armor, and it potentially being a red flag. It’s a common mistake to rush to hunters when attempting to justify whether something is suspicious or not. There are many civilian uses for body armor, and and the body armor manufacturer, Bullet Proof Me, documents 36 other instances, besides hunters, who would benefit from their products.

Added: Ooops… I see, after the fact, that DQCowboy already covered this. So sorry for the repeat performance. End Added

As far as hunters, had Harry Whittington been wearing one while hunting quail with Cheney’s party, the pellets to the chest would have been a non issue. Accidents happen in the woods with hunters as well, so it should be available for those who would like to take precautions.. just like m’cyclists who wear chaps or protective padding.

As I said above, the danger is who gets to decide what is “suspicious” red flags via a purchase? Is this a suggestion for a blind sweep, investigating those who purchase this accessory, merely because they chose to do so? It’s not suspicious to purchase the AR 15 and Glocks, along with the body armor. It’s just another accessory for what may also be a legitimate use. Is it any better if Holmes had waited a year before purchasing the armor??

@Dave Christopher, I’ve never seen a manufacturer ID of the type of protective armor that Holmes was wearing. Ultimately, not sure it makes a difference except to say that he obviously took precautions to protect himself from any ricocheted bullets. He wasn’t worried about being shot at by his victims in a theater that are unarmed via policy.

The other addition is that he apparently wanted to live – not commit suicide – when he faced a possible barrage of fire from the LEOs when they arrived. Apparently notoriety, and being alive to enjoy it, was a more attractive future than neuroscience for this defective human.

@Greg:
Hey Greg, since you think that “someone” should keep track of people who purchase high capacity magazines;
I wonder what else you think might be a good idea to keep track of.. Hmmm?
* all persons that own handguns?
* all persons that own multiple (more than 3) handguns?
* all persons that own hunting rifles?
* all persons that own multiple (more than 3) hunting rifles?
* all persons that own semi-automatic “assault” rifles?
* all persons that own fully automatic weapons?
* all persons that have over 5,000 rnds of ammo stored?
* all persons that purchase over 5,000 rnds of ammo each month?
* all persons that shoot (training) over 5,000 rnds of ammo each month?
* all persons that have their own gun range?
* all persons that teach their minor children gun safety and marksmanship?
* Members of the NRA (National Rifle Association)?
* Members of the TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association)?
* TEA Party members?
* Returning War Veterans?
* People that contribute money to Romney?
just wondering,
DQcowboy

@DQcowboy, I see you and I landed on the same thought INRE the uses of body armor. Sorry for coming in late!

@Dave Christopher:
Dave, was body armor?
I noticed the “tactical vest” used as clip art by Dr. J also, assumed it was something that he grabbed out of an on-line catalog as he punched out his story, just to have something to catch our eye (it did).
I agree, it’s not body armor (of any kind), in fact…. it’s not tactical equipment, more like public rifle range decoration. I think what it’s supposed to be is a (simulated) load bearing vest with ammo pouches (lite).

REGARDLESS – as far as I know, there are no actual pictures of the slimeball and his attire. The Police are restricting leaks, but a quick google that I ran for my first comment turned up this USAtoday.com report, where-in I found this paragraph about his BODY ARMOR-:

Holmes is suspected of shooting 70 people in a sold-out movie theater. Police say he decked himself out in full-body armor for the attack and dyed his hair red.
James Eagan Holmes, 24, legally bought the four weapons he allegedly used. Police said he opened fire in the suburban Denver theater with four sold-out showings of the premiere of the Batman movie Dark Knight Rises. He was dressed head-to-toe in black bullet-proof gear, including helmet, vest, leggings and a groin and throat protector. He wore a gas mask, goggles and black gloves.

SO – I’m guessing he was running full — > HALLOWEEN mode … If anything, he probably looked like he got lost on the way to a KISS concert, hence moviegoers thinking he was part of the show.
In reality, it sounds like a bomb suit I tried on one time; hot, poor visibility and limited mobility… which may have saved some lives. Only God knows what really happened in that theater.
DQcowboy

@DQcowboy, #22:

That’s your list, not mine. People seem to like to work themselves up by imagining what other people are thinking.

What I said was that high-capacity magazines should be subject to special registration or licensing, much as firearm silencers are. There are other things I would control the same way. Incendiary rounds and armor piercing rounds, for example. There isn’t much real use for them in civilian life, and the destructive potential is too high for wide availability to be a good idea.

Someone argued that restrictions on fully automatic weapons are unconstitutional. I disagree. I definitely don’t want the lack of a criminal record to be sufficient for easy access to a machine gun. Recent events should make the reason abundantly clear. The average person has no business with that much concentrated destructive power. I suspect most law enforcement personnel would agree.

So far, two people who had contact with him KNEW he was trouble: his own mother!!!! and the guy who owns the shooting range where he signed up (but never went).

Remember that Christmas Day would-be hijacker/bomber?
His family (dad, IIRC) warned our Homeland Security and FBI to be on the lookout for him….YET he was NOT on the No-Fly List!
It took courageous passengers to take him down.

So, my point is; we cannot ”let George do it,” as had been so common before 9-11-01.
We have to be ever vigilant – as were those three heros who saved their friends in that dark theater.
There’s no one who can do it for you.
Calling 911 is equivalent to calling Dial-a-Prayer in instances like these.
And expecting all of the possible cracks and potential loopholes to be filled for you by the inept government is simply wishful thinking, maybe even magical thinking.
A nice idea on paper, but a totalitarian solution in reality.

The body count in the Texas pick up truck is rising, I’m waiting for a call from the progs to ban high capacity pick up trucks…………….

@Buffalobob:

The idiot reporter who first broke the story said that the wounded were calling for their mothers. My God, why do we let people with shoe sized I.Q.s act as reporters. He was too stupid to know that “Madre mia” is not a call for their mothers, but a call for intercession from the Virgin Mary.

So now we have over a dozen dead that were [probably] all illegals being taken to a meet-up place by a cayote. In order to get that many bodies into a F-250, at least 20 of them had standing in the bed of that truck. In Texas, it is illegal to allow anyone under 18 to ride in the bed of a pickup unless they are a) in a parade b) hay ride monitored by police c) only vehicle the family ownes and c) are restrained. The max you would be able to put in the bed of a 250 (I own one) is 8 if they were sitting, giving them 4 square feet per person.

Now, since so many died at one time at one spot, we will hear the lefts demands for a sealed border in 3……2…… since open borders kill people.

Richard Wheeler, I don’t play with body armour. Just Pythons.

Greg,

And if I make my own silncer, how would that be managed by your plan? Or if I make my own clip? We are simply talking about a certain hinge type, springs and case. In the case of a silencer, thread a barrel and create your own silencer. Anyone who has ever rebuilt a muffler for a car or motorcycle knows the basics.

Are we to next outlaw the knowledge on how to create these items?

The issue is more along the lines of someone who is motivated, gaining the knowledge and tools required for their bidding. It doesn’t matter whether it is for a job, a hobby or mayhem.

I was talking to my girlfriend about this the other day. He could have just as easily chained the doors shut and started a fire. By the time anyone had noticed, most of the people would have died. I am guessing, based upon that logic, we should outlaw chains, smoke, and fire, right?

@CHIPSET, #27:

The fact that a remotely detonated bomb can be assembled from items purchased at hardware and gardening stores doesn’t mean that the fully assembled device should be available at Wal-Mart.

What I said was that high-capacity magazines should be subject to special registration or licensing, much as firearm silencers are. There are other things I would control the same way. Incendiary rounds and armor piercing rounds, for example. There isn’t much real use for them in civilian life, and the destructive potential is too high for wide availability to be a good idea.

Someone argued that restrictions on fully automatic weapons are unconstitutional. I disagree. I definitely don’t want the lack of a criminal record to be sufficient for easy access to a machine gun. Recent events should make the reason abundantly clear. The average person has no business with that much concentrated destructive power. I suspect most law enforcement personnel would agree.

Gee, a leftist who wants to tell people what they can have and buy, what they need, and what rights they should have. They aren’t domineering control freaks at all. Nope. (roll eyes)

As usual, the left in it’s need for dominance over others wants to use this incident to further it’s agenda. Just sickening. The left is mentally ill and evil.

@Hard Right:

1) Buying body armor, weapons, and ammo is no “red flag”. I buy them all the time.

Why do you need body armor? Who is shooting back at you?

Dr. John Take notice Hard Right and Retire 05 BOTH wear body armor.Is this a coincidance or a pattern. Should we be concerned?
#26 Reminded 05 buys body armour when rassling snakes. We can be pretty sure she never tries charmin em.

@Richard Wheeler:

Where did I say I wear body armour? Or are you just stoned again and reading words that are not there?

And how funny you think I “rassle” snakes. Your stupidity knows no bounds.

@Richard Wheeler:

I don’t wear body armor. That I buy ammo and guns thru the web is what I meant.

I am definitely surprised at what is available. I had never heard of “ballistic leggings” until now.
The stuff he had wasn’t cheap.
He was wearing/carrying anywhere from $3k to $6k in gear including the AR-15 and drum mag. I can also say that 6000 rounds of any ammo larger than .22 will cost a few grand too.
He sure had a fair amount of dispoasable cash for a student.

@retire05:

Rich’s post was intended as humor. Perhaps you’ve heard of it.

@Aye:

Humor? Which part? Is is so hard to tell when liberals are expressing humor since it is so rare. Perhaps you could tell me where to get a humor detector for my computer. It doesn’t seem to be part of Microsofts programing.

@Greg:

I see no good reason for the ready availability of 100 round magazines.

Do you realize that trained, or even well versed and practiced people, can change magazines in a handgun or “assault rifle” in seconds? Whether the guy had 100 round magazines or was limited to standard 30 round “assault rifle” magazines makes little difference, as the time difference between him shooing off 100 rounds in a continuous magazine or with four 30 round magazines would be less than 30 seconds.

Which makes this statement by you completely beside the point, not only for this incident, but for firearms ownership in general.

That being the case, what useful function do they have? Are they a fashion statement for sexually insecure males? Is it like wearing a bigger and more impressive codpiece, or something?

@Greg:

It doesn’t matter what function you, me, or anyone else thinks they have, Greg.

I personally believe that the so-called “supercars”, the little two-seaters with massive amounts of power, serve little, if any, purpose on ordinary roads(anything not race-track related). However, I won’t tell someone they cannot have one, because I see no purpose in it. And you shouldn’t be suggesting that someone who wishes a high-capacity magazine, whether for an “assault rifle”, or a semi-auto handgun, should be subjected to increased scrutiny for wanting it.

And if you are thinking that ‘increased scrutiny’ would have identified this shooter early enough to stop him, you’d be wrong, in my opinion. The guy is obviously very bright, and if knowing that increased scrutiny by law enforcement, and government, would have possibly derailed his plans, I’m sure this guy would have been quite content to carry a few more lower capacity magazines and just switch them out more often. Especially, as it seems, he very nearly had all the time in the world to do so, as he didn’t have anyone firing back at him.

One thing that might come of this are electronic detectors that alert theater personnel when an exit door has been left ajar. That surely wouldn’t be a very expensive retrofit. Assuming they don’t have them already.

@johngalt: Unless you’re in the Peoples Demokratic Socialist Republik of Kalifornia where we’re so brilliantly restricted to 10 round magazines for any weapon and on those ….. queue horror music….EVIL BLACK RIFLES….bullet buttons. Greg will be happy to hear that Leland Yee is going to protect us from having a tool to manipulate those bullet buttons.

One question no one is asking is …. why did his weapon jam? I’m glad that it did, but why? Cheap Russian ammo?

In a bit over a month I’m going down to sweat in the desert for 4 days to make sure I can handle my Xd in an appropriate manner when so called upon.

@Dave Christopher: and @DQcowboy, I just thought I’d give you an update that drj has the exact vest worn by Holmes.

Here’s the receipt for some of the gear, including the Blackhawk Urban Assault vest, which is the picture above.

The other three items are:

An Omega Elite Triple Pistol mag pouch, holding three short or extended mags, plus a pouch that can hold a couple of standard forearm cuffs.

An Omega Elite M16 Mag pouch which holds two 30 round mags

And a Be-Wharned knife with 3.4″ blade

Total recommended retail sales price for all? $306.79 including shipping. And not one piece of “armor” in the mix.

If he was wearing armor under the vest, he didn’t buy it there. This is the link to browse Blackhawk’s armor catalog.

Either reporters and pundits are watching too many GI Joe movies – thinking leg mount mag pouches are armored legging and don’t recognize nylon when they see it – or we don’t have a full shopping list of this loon’s costume. All this stuff is just so he can be a walking ammo dump for a couple of different weapons. This wouldn’t be enough to get a competitor thru multiple stages in a Three Gun Shooting match… LOL

@johngalt:

This is why I doubt his military history claims. If he fought in Vietnam he’d vouch for an extended mag on an m14 or a “Borrowed” AK 47 with a 45 or 75 round mag when combat flared up to keep as much metal on enemy positions and not be stuck with the finicky first generation m-16s. Even now our troops today would prefer slightly larger magazine sizes to out last enemys in firefights… And as you point out even if Mr Joker had only 20 round mags to the AR-15 it really doesn’t take long to drop out the mag and pop in another, especially if no one retaliates back.

@Mr. Irons:

And as you point out even if Mr Joker had only 20 round mags to the AR-15 it really doesn’t take long to drop out the mag and pop in another, especially if no one retaliates back.

Indeed his 100 round magazine jammed early on at less than 20 rounds I think. Unwilling to take the time to unjam his weapon the killer immediately switched to a hand gun. In this instance the killer’s poor choice of the notorious 100 round mag likely saved lives.

What you picture is the “tactical vest” the shooter wore, it is not body armor, nor is it bullet proof. It has no Kevlar in it at all. It is simply a cloth vest with ammo pouches, and nothing more. The people that sold him this vest have stated that it is the vest that they sold to Holmes, so he did not have any body armor or bullet proof vest. If someone had been there with a concealed carry there is a good chance they could have taken him out before he caused the loss of life that he ended up causing.

@Fred: I understand that but I do not believe I have read a single account that said anything other than Holmes was wearing head to toe body armor.

Gregg,
I don’t have time to look it up this week, as to your shoulder fired missile question. It is my understanding that anything bigger than .50 cal is considered “ordinance”, not “arms” as “arms” are those weapons one could expect a typical infantryman to carry. Anti-aircraft weapons are the province of specialists, not infantrymen I suspect.

Back to work. Bye

@Liberal1 (objectivity): Honest discussion?? How does that start when the gun control wachos are already swewing their ridiculous chant?? If you want to be honest about violence I would say start in the mind and look at the painless and realistic violence that permeates our nation. From drones in the military to X-Box our country is bombarded with extreme violence and the ability to participate without pain!! Geeez you liberals are stupid. Leave my second amendment alone douche!!

@Greg: Like the right to life?? Think abortion. The issue is the mind and not the gun. Look at the violence from drones to x-box!! Painless murder without feelings or concern.

@Mike O’Malley:

Too damn bad his other weapons didn’t jam either.

Two things.

First, a correction.
His mother has now ”walked back” her original statement that, ”You’ve got the right person.”
Now she is claiming she only meant that she was the right person, the one the reporter was trying to get.
So, that means ONLY the man who owned the shooting range saw anything worrisome about this guy!
Maybe we should put those kinds of men in charge of homeland security.

Second, the Left is nearly always wrong.
Sometimes it just takes a while to see it.
Like, years ago, Gloria Steinem declared that “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.”
Now, we must ask ourselves if those women whose boyfriends, husbands, fathers, male acquaintances covered their bodies during the shooting so they could live feel the same as Gloria.
All in all three men died.
Probably others did the same protective thing but survived along with those they covered.

Nan G: Second, the Left is nearly always wrong.
Sometimes it just takes a while to see it.
Like, years ago, Gloria Steinem declared that “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.”
Now, we must ask ourselves if those women whose boyfriends, husbands, fathers, male acquaintances covered their bodies during the shooting so they could live feel the same as Gloria.

Nan G, it would be nice to give credit where credit is due. Your paraphrasing is from a very good article, written today by Wesley Pruden, a Washington Examiner op-ed writer. But I believe you skimmed over his larger point of the article… which was not a political left vs right… but that despite all odds, the greater love for one another trumps evil and hatred.

Gloria Steinem was wrong. Once in a fit of frustration, she rolled her eyes, stamped her feet and declared that “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” This became a battle cry in the war between the sexes.

Three young women, who survived the movie-palace massacre in Colorado because three men gave their lives to save them, beg to differ.

The names of the three — Jon Blunk, Matt McQuinn and Alex Teves — are inscribed permanently in their hearts, vivid reminders of the words of Christ as recorded in the 15th chapter of the Gospel of John: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” This is the passage where Christ teaches that authentic love is not mere emotion, treacly sentiment celebrated in the syrupy lyrics of Tin Pan Alley, but the act of sacrificial giving. “This is my commandment,” Christ told his disciples, “that ye love one another as I have loved you.”

Three sacrificial acts in a darkened charnel reveal the spark of humanity that can survive in the human heart.

continue reading at the link above…

Pruden’s editorial offering strikes an admirable balance of “blame” for the event. Indeed, one of the best I have seen. It acknowledges the major elements – freedom, responsibility and influence. i.e., is it the gun and accessory laws? Parenting? Hollywood’s penchant for blood, gore and violence for profit? None can be discounted as irrelevant and unrelated, tho none can take responsibility for Holmes’ personal choices either.

His last paragraph is far more illuminating than the Steinem point you chose to highlight. (emphasis mine)

The shooter, the self-described orange-haired Joker of the Batman comic books, is solely responsible for the carnage in Colorado. It was he who did the deed. Collective guilt is for the sociologists and head-shrinkers. But only a fool argues that movies like “The Dark Knight Rises” have not dumped trash and garbage into the cesspool the culture has become. We all swim in the pollution; a few of us, unable to keep heads out of the sewage, cannot resist the temptation to imitate in pursuit of transient fame. But we take the comfort and consolation we can from an unexpected act of greater love.

There is a fine line we walk for our freedom, and how the effect using (or abusing) that freedom manifests itself in our moral and societal culture. The dividing line is usually an inherent sense of responsibility and common sense that was once instilled in our young in the course of daily living. Then again, it was easier those days to block out graphic and negative influences from outside.

While we are free to have art form expressions that glorify, or depict violence in a very realistic way – and indeed with YouTube beheadings and assassinations found on the Internet, the line between fiction and reality becomes blurred – there is a question that most parents should be asking themselves. Is using our freedoms to desensitize our children to violence a wise use of that freedom?

It is this casual acceptance of desensitization that has become the decline of what was, by choice, once a good and moral culture. I, for one, don’t know that it’s a reversible trend. And I find that sad.

@JustAl, #46:

There’s much confusion with that word. Ordnance can specifically refer to mounted guns and related munitions and equipment, but also to military equipment and supplies in general. In the second sense you could properly refer to a crate of rifles as ordnance–an ordnance officer might routinely do that, but might also be referring to supplies other than weapons. If you’re specifically talking about guns, then I think most military people would immediately understand ordnance to mean mounted guns. I never thought of my M-16 as ordnance. I recall that my drill instructor–who liked to use both rhymes and anatomical references as memory aids–made damn sure we never referred to it as a gun, either. (An M-16 is your rifle. It’s not for fun. )

An ordinance is a municipal or county law.