It’s going to be a tough sell [Reader Post]

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In announcing the charge of second degree murder brought against George Zimmerman, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey said

“We do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition. We prosecute based on the facts on any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida.”

I am not so certain. It’s an interesting charge and more severe than many expected and it may prove to be a difficult hurdle to clear:

But prosecutors face steep hurdles to win a second-degree murder conviction against neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin, experts say. They will have to prove Zimmerman intentionally went after Martin instead of shooting him in self-defense, refute arguments that a Florida law empowered him to use deadly force and get past a judge’s ruling at a pretrial hearing.

Legal experts said Corey chose a tough route with the murder charge, which could send Zimmerman to prison for life if he’s convicted, over manslaughter, which usually carries 15-year prison terms and covers reckless or negligent killings.

The prosecutors must prove Zimmerman’s shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will and counter his claims that he shot Martin to protect himself while patrolling his gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford. Zimmerman’s lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence – a relatively low legal standard – that he acted in self-defense at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial.

One defense attorney thinks it might not even get to trial.

There’s a “high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case,” Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said.

The Florida second degree murder statute says

A second-degree-murder charge arises out of the killing of another person where there is no premeditation, according to the Florida State Legislature. It is a felony and carries up to a life sentence. To be charged with second-degree murder, a defendant must have committed or attempted to commit one of a variety of criminal offenses in which a death occurs and demonstrated “a depraved mind regardless of human life.” Those offenses can include kidnapping; aggravated abuse of a child, an elderly person or a disabled adult; and aggravated stalking. First-degree-murder charges are brought when the killing was plotted in advance and can carry a death sentence.

Trayvon Martin’s mother expressed relief at Zimmerman’s arrest:

In Washington, Martin’s family pleaded for calm in response to the decision. But Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, clasped hands and smiled in relief when she heard Corey utter the words “second-degree murder” on television.

“We wanted an arrest and we got it,” Fulton said later. “Thank you Lord, Thank you, Jesus.”

But that’s not going to be the end of it.

“We’re just glad that he’s behind bars, but we’re not satisfied,” said Ms. Dawson, executive director of Hurting Families With Children In Crime, a Jacksonville nonprofit. The turnout was lighter than expected, but that was because Mr. Zimmerman was charged, Ms. Dawson said, adding, “There would’ve been a riot if they wouldn’t have arrested him.”

Aaron Brown, a civil-litigation lawyer who organized a Trayvon Martin rally last month in Jacksonville, said the case is now “justice delivered, but not yet justice served.”

As mentioned, many were surprised by the severity of the charge. It is suggested that the point of the second degree murder charge is leverage:

“Prosecutors look for leverage. They’ll typically overcharge knowing that gives them wiggle room for plea discussions,” said Derek Byrd, incoming president of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. “She knows that she could offer him manslaughter at some point or get in front of a jury that could split the verdict and agree on a lesser offense.”

We’ll see how it goes, but it cannot be overlooked- George Zimmerman does not have to prove he is innocent. Zimmerman is going to have some interesting witnesses at his disposal:

Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.

“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event,” Serino told the Sentinel March 16. “Everything I have is adding up to what he says.

I believe Corey had to bring charges to keep Sanford from being torched. Nor do I doubt the severity of these charges is politically motivated. Angela Corey, who once brought a first degree murder charge against a 12 year old, is running for re-election. Maybe Corey is seeking leverage, or maybe she chose a bridge too far. We shall see. It is going to be a tough sell.

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The ass**** holter and opie demanded Fl do something. This is a pure act of racism on the part of the wipe house and the ag. Do not be surprised if a legal team of idiots show up from the ag’s office to try and nail zimmerman with a hate crime conviction. Smile America, your civil liberties have just been screwed again. OH! wonder how the defense will use the nbc screwup of the 911 tapes for promotional advangtage. This is enough for a motion to dismiss.

I trust forensic evidence.
We haven’t seen one whit of that.
Who knows what findings Sanford and FLA have from their forensic experts?
One thing is for sure, they know more than all of us put together.
another thing that struck me during the news conference where the prosecutor told what the charges would be: she said her two lead homicide detectives were continuing to investigate!
So, even they don’t feel secure in their case.

As for ”riots,” we are already having many slow-mo riots….the lawlessness that comes in Trayvon’s name as groups of blacks surround and beat white victims while screaming, ”Remember Trayvon!” and “Trayvon Lives!”
I must have read about at least four of these already.
Who is calling for it to stop?

I keep laughing at the New York Slimes and the Administration Press (AP). The white hispanic term is slowly dieing, much like The Gray Lady. AP has slowly retracted from their previous race baiting. Even Al Resist We Much, is backtracking. I wonder, has AmessNBC told him to cool it.
IMO, a second degree charge is a reach that may backfire. Will Zimmermann walk like OJ Simpson? How will it play out?

I have one question” Why was Zimmerman out of his car and within arm’s reach of Martin.

You can’t get out of your car, chase down a person, start a fight with him, then when he proceeds to slap the snot out of you can not claim “self defense”.

I cannot see why you would say that they had to “bring charges to keep Sanford from being torched”!
I was in Dayton, Ohio (1967) when the blacks were setting fires in clothing stores and Chicago was bad enough that Mayor Daley gave orders to “shoot to kill” when looting was rampant! I was in Chicago for two weeks in April, 1968 and you all know what happened then. Civil disorder should not be tolerated and agitators like Sharpton and the “black panthers’ should be arrested for inciting…………..period!

Larry Sheldon Zimmerman was “within arms reach of” no limit nigga because no limit nigga jumped on him and started pounding his head into the concrete, genius.

Inside Zimmerman’s car.

So what you are saying is that Zimmerman did not have a right to leave his car in his own neighborhood because a member of a protected race was in the area?

Zimmerman did *not* start a fight with him. He followed him because Trayvon was ‘looking at houses’ (per the 911 call). When the dispatcher suggested that he did not have to follow him (NOTE: it was *not* an order – it was a suggestion.) he turned around to return and started to leave. Then Travon attacked him and started beating his head into the cement.

Interesting how trolls always start with “so….”. I am impressed that this one capitalized the “s”>

I didn’t realize you had been there, thanks for the update.

All I knew before you information I got from the controlled press and the picture I had was that Zimmerman was in his car some distance away from Martin when the dispatcher took charge and dispatched officers.

It does not seem reasonable to me for somebody to get out of the safety of their car, approach somebody, start a fight with them, get the snot kicked out of them and then cry “self defense”.

@Larry Sheldon:

I have one question” Why was Zimmerman out of his car and within arm’s reach of Martin. You can’t get out of your car, chase down a person, start a fight with him, then when he proceeds to slap the snot out of you can not claim “self defense”.

Larry

The dispatcher said:

“Just let me know if he does anything”

The only way he could do that was to maintain surveillance on him.

drj: The dispatcher said:

“Just let me know if he does anything”

The only way he could do that was to maintain surveillance on him.

Pure misrepresentation, and an out of context observation. That statement was made just after Zimmerman said Martin was coming towards him, and had something in his hands. Obviously the dispatcher would want to know if Martin was drawing a weapon.

The context does not support the dispatcher, encouraging Zimmerman to leave his car and track his whereabouts. And, in fact, when Zimmerman did so – 40 seconds after that exchange – politely told him not to do so.

The affadavit claims Zimmerman was “profiling.” Profiling what, it does not say. Profiling a potential burglar is not a crime. Zimmerman did ask the dispatcher how long it would take to get an officer over there so Zimmerman could be sure there was another witness to his murdering Martin. /sarc

@drjohn:

Zimmerman did ask the dispatcher how long it would take to get an officer over there so Zimmerman could be sure there was another witness to his murdering Martin.

So, you’re saying that Zimmerman planned ahead to murder Martin.

Interesting.

Seems that the Prosecutor should have gone for a first degree murder charge then.

The editor keeps dropping off the “end sarc.” Sarcasm evades you at will for some reason.

There we go. I guess you cannot bracket it.

It’s only racism if it is against African Americans! What would have happened in this country if W’s attorney general would have used the term ‘my people’? What would have happened if a group of white rednecks would have offered a bounty for a black murder suspect?

We have 2 sets of standards in this country, one for blacks, and one for everyone else. Besides, I thought we were past the racial issue when we elected Odumbo!

@drjohn:

The dispatcher said:

“Just let me know if he does anything”

The only way he could do that was to maintain surveillance on him.

Which is why the dispatcher said “That’s great. Do whatever you need to do to keep him in sight” when he found out Zimmerman was following Martin.

@Aye:

Which is why the dispatcher said “That’s great. Do whatever you need to do to keep him in sight” when he found out Zimmerman was following Martin.

Zimmerman’s following Martin is an entirely reasonable interpretation of what the dispatcher initially said. Then he later asked Zimmerman not to pursue and Zimmerman agreed.

@drjohn:

Then he later asked Zimmerman not to pursue and Zimmerman agreed.

And then, after no longer pursuing Martin…and rather than returning to his vehicle…Zimmerman either “walk[ed] down the street” or stood “looking about” in the rain for another 1:30 to 2:00 right?

Sounds sorta like the identical behavior he described to the dispatcher as being the nexus of his call.

Zimmerman’s following Martin is an entirely reasonable interpretation of what the dispatcher initially said.

Interesting leap in logic there, but I’ll play.

I think we will both agree that Zimmerman told the dispatcher this “suspicious” stranger was “on drugs or something.” We can also agree that Zimmerman noted to the dispatcher that Martin had his hand in his waistband.

I wonder, did Zimmerman have any idea whether Martin was armed? Did he know if there was possibly a weapon hidden in there? Did Zimmerman know if this person, whom he judged to be from a distance to be “suspicious” and “on drugs or something” might shoot him or jump on him or otherwise act unpredictably?

Did those possibilities even cross his mind before he threw caution to the wind?

It appears that Zimmerman never heard of the “What’s the worst that could happen to me?” approach to situations in life. He’s finding out now what that approach is all about.

And, of course, the choice to remain out in the rain rather than return to his vehicle was another in his series of bad choices that night.

Bruce
you got it nailed right on the dot,
why is all the concerns from the whites it’s because the whites who follow this don’t have a stich of trust for the GOVERNMENT starting with the top down, and because they have already showed they are protecting the blacks over the whites in a few instances,
and because the whites show too much tolerance and are not using the race card as oppose to the blacks,
we can see it,WHITE PEOPLE are acting like ZIMMERMAN DID, THAT IS RESTRAINT, WHILE HIS HEAD WAS BASHED WITHOUT MERCY, BY A YOUNG ATHLETIC SIX FOOTER GUY ON TOP LOCKING HIS BODY TO HIM UNDER UNABLE TO GET OUT OF IT UNLESS HE CAN REACH A GUN TO STOP THE HURT,
THAT OTHER 80 YEAR OLD MAN HAD THE SAME BASHING WITH A HAMMER BY 6 OF THEM
IN CHARGE OF THE SLOW KILLING PROCESS FOLLOWED BY KICKING ON AND ON AND DRAGGING HIS BODY STILL ALIVE IN THE WOODS TO DYE , NO MERCY, HE SURVIVED BECAUSE THEY RAN WHEN SOMEONE CAME TO SEE THE END, HE HAS SURVIVED BUT FOR HOW LONG?
ZIMMERMAN HAS SURVIVE, BUT HIS WHOLE LIFE IS SHATTERD WITHOUT REPAIRS,
HE IS ONLY 28 YEARS OLD, AND HELPING HIS COMMUNITY, DONE IT MANY TIMES BEFORE,
WHY THE HELL DID HE TAKE THAT JOBS WITHOUT MAKING SURE HE WAS GOING TO BE PROTECTED ALL THE WAY, AREN’T THE CITY STANDING BEHIND HIM FOR HAVING HIM AS A CITIZEN PROTECTING THEIR ASS ? A MAN OF COURAGE LEFT ALONE?

Finally the case is where it needs to be, in the judicial system. No amount of punditry will give the answer.

@Larry Sheldon:

I have one question” Why was Zimmerman out of his car and within arm’s reach of Martin.

You can’t get out of your car, chase down a person, start a fight with him, then when he proceeds to slap the snot out of you can not claim “self defense”.

You can’t make a serious claim of “chase down” for something that happened within 200 feet of the car 3-1/2 minutes later.

I can imaging the jury reviewing a recreation of the chase. Juror: Could you play that at regular speed, instead of super-slow motion. Technician: That is regular speed.

Let’s hold the trial right here—so we can develop an attitude about the actual outcome, beforehand.

Dispatcher askes Zimmerman “is he white, black, Hispanic?”

Zimmerman says “He looks black.”

Zimmerman goes on to tell the dispatcher that Martin is just staring and “Now he’s just staring at me.” Zimmerman then procedes to give dispatch directions to the Club House and then says “Now he’s coming towards me. He’s got his hand in his waistband. (NOT that Martin had something in his hand at least not at this point in the tape). Zimmerman goes on to tell the dispatcher that Martin is a black male and after the dispatcher asks how old Martin appears to be, Zimmerman says “late teens.” He goes on to tell the dispatcher “He’s (Martin) coming to check me out.” and proceeds to continue giving the dispatcher directions to his location at which point Z says “He’s running.”

Dispatcher askes Zimmerman’s name. “George —- he ran.”

At this point you can hear a car door open and the key in ignition alarm going off. You can hear the door shut and the alarm go off and the dispatcher asks if Z is following the suspect and he says “Yes” while breathing heavily. Dispatcher says “We don’t need you to do that.” Zimmerman “Okay” and then the Zimmerman’s breathing becomes normal, not that of a man who is running in persuit.

At no point did the dispatcher give Zimmerman a direct order to cease following Martin, but simply adivsed Zimmerman that the police did not need him to do that.

At the point Zimmerman tells the dispatcher “Shit. He’s running.” the dispatcher asks Zimmerman which direction Martin is running. It is at that point you can hear the car door open and the key in ignition alarm go off and Zimmerman telling dispatch which direction Martin is running (toward the back entrance).

Now, question for all you “get a rope” types: if Martin was really fearful, why did Martin not himself, call 911, to tell them he was being followed?

You will pardon me if I am sick of listening about Zimmerman. Every minute we waste discussing a case that we will NEVER influence, we are NOT discussing the future of America and the jug-eared, socialist now leading it. Now I don’t want to seem uncaring, but this case will play out with or without us. Unfortunately, America will not survive without our help. So stop pissing away valuable minutes on an irrelevant sideshow and educate others on what we need to do to save our country.

It’s gonna be interesting to see if Trayvon has wounds consistant with battery and assault. It just doesn’t seem logical that the White Mexican would start a fist fight with what he identifies as a teen. Even less logical is calling cops when you plan to batter/assualt the minor? The more logical conclusion is that Trayvon got the jump on George, cold-clocked him and was able to seize the advantage to get the leverage to bang the mans head on the cement. But I speculate – this is what discovery is for.

@MataHarley:
While I agree with the point that instructing Zimmerman to let him know if Martin does anything isn’t an instruction to follow him, but it does appear in instruction to keep tabs on what he’s doing while he is in sight. About 20 seconds later, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher he’s running and the dispatcher asks “Which way is he running?” Its at this point that Zimmerman gets out of the car and starts running. Now again, I wouldn’t go as far as to say this is an instruction to Zimmerman to follow the kid, but he is asking for information that can better be obtained by Zimmerman getting out of his car since the kid was behind him now and since the dispatcher wants to know the direction/whereabouts of Martin, its reasonable to assume Zimmerman would have to head the direction he is headed to know. In about 15 seconds after exiting the car, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he’s following him and the dispatcher then says “we don’t need you to do that”. IT could be construed as a request to stop, or given the other inquiries for information, its reasonable to think that he’s just saying you don’t need to go that far to meet my requests for information. I think its reasonable to interpret the full context of those exchanges either way and Zimmerman appears to stop running when the statement is made by the dispatcher so he probably did take it as a request to stop.

So if Zimmerman heeded the request to stop following Martin at that point (I’m assuming he did because shortly after the time Zimmerman says “OK” Martin calls his girlfriend, which probably isn’t something you do in the middle of a chase/pursuit), should we assume Zimmerman saying he would wait for police would start following/chasing him again after hanging up the phone?

wigmon

A couple of points. The comment about “let us know” is a direct response to the “he’s got something in his hands” comment. The direct response to Zimmerman getting out of the car and following was a dispatcher warning *not* to do so. You cannot, for debate convenience, take two separate exchanges that are 40 seconds apart, and link them together to justify an action that the dispatcher clearly indicated was not sanctioned.

Secondly, *if* Zimmerman agreed not to continue following (and there is still a question in my mind as to whether that second “okay” is the dispatcher or Zimmerman), he did not comply. He moved for 33 seconds in the phone call. This either puts him 33 seconds away from the vehicle, or… had he immediately turned around when the dispatcher asked… would be again back at his vehicle.

He hung up the phone approx 7:13:54 according to police call logs. The entire call was about four minutes long, starting at 7:09 (plus some seconds) Zimmerman and Martin did not meet until about two minutes later. Obviously, Zimmerman did not discontinue his search. So if he “agreed”, as so many say, he did not live up to his agreement.

Lastly, Martin’s girlfriend called him at 7:12, not the other way around, as the cell logs indicate. He was on the phone with her until the altercation began. Therefore Martin was already on the phone when Zimmerman started to follow him, and stayed on the phone with her during the two minutes after Zimmerman had hung up.

There are no laws, fines or penalties associated for disregard of the advice of a dispatcher. However the choice to do so is weighed when it comes to a prosecutor, examining Zimmermans’ actions and whether that decision contributed to creating the conditions that led to the loss of life.

I’ve heard that the affidavit is available.
If true, is there a link?
One thing that was under dispute seems to be at the heart of the ”case” against George Zimmerman: who is the one yelling for help?

Multiple eyewitnesses have claimed that they saw Martin on top of defendant George Zimmerman as Zimmerman was on the ground and one eyewitnesses claimed that Zimmerman was yelling for help.

Initially, Trayvon Martin’s father said that the screams heard were not from his son, but later recanted.
Trayvon’s mother identified the screams for help heard in a 911 call as those of her son.

If the voice on the 911 calls is Trayvon Martin’s, it would cast serious doubts on Zimmerman’s.entire story.
If Zimmerman told investigators the truth, it would make no sense that Trayvon Martin would be yelling for help as he beat up Zimmerman.

No audio has yet been released of what Trayvon Martin’s voice sounds like.

Forensics in this area is very weak.
It is also going to be tough without exemplars of each man screaming.
They can get Zimmerman to scream, if his lawyer lets him.

Nan G, here’s the link to the two page summary. The judge accepted it as sufficient to press charges yesterday.

The reading of the State’s standards for burden of proof for second degree murder may not lie with the actual altercation itself, but what led up to the altercation.

In order to convict a defendant in Florida of Second-degree murder, the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1: The victim is dead;

2: The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;

3: There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

The “criminal act” reference in the statute must be a single event or series of related actions performed that created the dangerous conditions that led to the death.

The “depraved mind without regard for human life” phrase means that the prosecutors believe that Zimmerman’s actions and decisions demonstrated a disregard for the potential damage to human life that his actions could cause.

The comments about Zimmerman’s use of “these assholes” stops short of saying it was racial profiling, but indicates they may intend to prove that Zimmerman’s intent had malice, even if not racially based.

@Larry Sheldon:

All I knew before you information I got from the controlled press and the picture I had was that Zimmerman was in his car some distance away from Martin when the dispatcher took charge and dispatched officers.

The affidavit of probable cause alleges that the dispatcher told Zimmerman “that an officer was on the way and to wait for the officer”.

The phone call shows that after Martin was approaching Zimmerman’s car, the dispatcher said “just let me know if he does anything.” Zimmerman, who was becoming alarmed replied: “get an officer over here”. The dispatcher then said: “yeah we’ve got them on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.”

It appears that the dispatcher had not created an official report until this time (it wasn’t a 911 call), and may actually have dispatched the patrol officer after he said “yeah we’ve got them on the way”.

Zimmerman then appears to have calmed down. He had to take charge and tell the dispatcher where he was at.

Does the phrase “just let me know …” mean “wait for the officer”, particularly when Zimmerman had to take the initiative to tell the dispatcher where he was at.

The depravity of it all.

About 1/2 minute later, as Zimmerman is explaining where he is at, he observes that Martin is running. Surely, this would qualify as “anything else”.

The dispatcher requests the direction that Martin had ran. The truck door opens, and there is about 5 seconds as Zimmerman apparently gets out of the truck in order to determine which way Martin was running. It is only then that the door closes as Zimmerman apparently begins to follow Martin in an attempt to provide the information that the dispatcher requested, and was asking for clarification.

The dispatcher then asks Zimmerman whether he was following Martin, Martin says yeah, the dispatcher tells Zimmerman not to do that (follow), Zimmerman says OK and apparently stops. The dispatcher then asks for his name. Zimmerman gives his first name and says “he ran”, which indicates Martin was not in sight. The conversation then continues for 1-1/2 minute as Zimmerman gives him his last name and phone number. After the dispatcher asks Zimmerman whether wants to meet with the officer when he arrives, Zimmerman says yes. The dispatcher asks where he wanted to meet, and Zimmerman tries to explain where he is at. The dispatcher got sidetracked, wondering whether Zimmerman even lives in the area, and finally asks Zimmerman whether the “mailboxes” were OK. Zimmerman initially reluctantly agrees, but realizes that he would have to walk some distance or get in his truck; asks whether it would be OK for the police officer to call him when he arrives, and Zimmerman would tell him where he is at.

The dispatcher cheerfully said that “would be no problem” and adds that to the log, and Zimmerman makes sure that the dispatcher does in fact have his phone number.

The affidavit does an NBC, and compresses this to “he instructed Zimmerman not to do that [follow] and that the responding officer would meet him.”

There was 1-1/2 minutes of discussion represented by that “and”.

If the dispatcher was concerned that Zimmerman was not in his truck, he did not indicate it in any way and cheerfully agreed to have the officer call Zimmerman so that he could tell him where he was at.

A supposed 3-minute chase during which Martin attempted to run home covered about 200 feet.

@drjohn:

“Just let me know if he does anything”

The only way he could do that was to maintain surveillance on him.

This is not accurate. Zimmerman reported “He’s running” as he sat in his truck explaining where he was at. This was something else.

The dispatcher then requested to know which direction Martin was running. Then (in the conventional sense of what happened next; rather than the NBC-variant) the door opened, Zimmerman apparently got out and made his initial assessment that Martin was running toward the “other gate”, the door then closed. This took about 5 seconds.

During this period where Zimmerman apparently begins to follow Martin, the dispatcher is seeking clarification as to what “other gate” is, and determines that Zimmerman might be following.

If a dispatcher requests that you determine which way a suspicious person who had been in the area for at least two minutes had run, isn’t it reasonable to get out of your vehicle to get a better view and to go in the same general direction.

@Aye:

And then, after no longer pursuing Martin…and rather than returning to his vehicle…Zimmerman either “walk[ed] down the street” or stood “looking about” in the rain for another 1:30 to 2:00 right?

Let’s get the timing correct. Zimmerman continued to talk to the dispatcher for 1-1/2 minutes after the dispatcher told him “not to do that”, during which the dispatcher gave no indication that he should return to his truck, and during which Zimmerman unsuccessfully tried to explain where he was at (using his truck as way point – not the destination) and then having the dispatcher cheerfully agree to have the officer call Zimmerman so that Zimmerman could tell him where he was at.

So what’s your story. Zimmerman stopped for the 1-1/2 minutes until he could get the dispatcher off the line, or he was following for 3 minutes.

@Aye:

And, of course, the choice to remain out in the rain rather than return to his vehicle was another in his series of bad choices that night.

How hard was it raining at the time?

You do know that there was another earlier phone call from Martin’s girlfriend to Martin where Martin reported he was seeking shelter from the rain? So he would have set out for home when the rain relented.

@MataHarley:

“Just let me know if he does anything”

Pure misrepresentation, and an out of context observation.

But this appears the only basis for the affidavit’s claim that the dispatcher told Zimmerman to “wait for the officer”. Zimmerman had to take the initiative to explain where he was “waiting” for the officer.

Who exactly is doing the misrepresentation and taking things out of context?

jimrtex: But this appears the only basis for the affidavit’s claim that the dispatcher told Zimmerman to “wait for the officer”. Zimmerman had to take the initiative to explain where he was “waiting” for the officer.

Who exactly is doing the misrepresentation and taking things out of context?

Well, jimrtex, sorry to say but that would still be you, misrepresenting things.

We’ll try this again.

The “let us know comment” 1’27” into the call, was a direct response to Zimmerman’s observation that Martin had “something in his hands”.

The “we don’t need you to do that” advice at 2’22” into the call is a direct question and direction *not* to do that when reacting to the sound of Zimmerman’s movement. This is almost a minute later than the original question where the dispatcher might rightly be concerned that Martin possessed a weapon.

Even given that Zimmerman had misinterpreted and construed he was supposed to follow, that moment would have cured that misconception.

The dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he wants to meet with the LEO at 2’52”. Zimmerman then starts to give them directions to his car (where he obviously is *not* at the moment). Also, it’s obvious that vehicle would not be hard to spot on that road, tho the dispatcher doesn’t know that. After discussing it’s a cut thru, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman if they should meet him at the mailboxes at 3’40” in. First Zimmerman agrees, then changes his mind and tells the dispatcher to have the LEO call him so he can tell them where he’s going to be.

What can we take away from that? He won’t be meeting them at his truck, or at the mailboxes. Because he’s going to continue his hunt, and he doesn’t know where he’ll be when they arrive. As the evening’s events prove, Zimmerman did not return the 33 seconds distance to his truck, or head to the mailboxes in the two remaining minutes before he and Martin met up.

For anyone who, yet again, wants to listen to the call, and draw conclusions without embellishment and translations, I’ll again provide it below.

mossomo
hi, is in it what police have to do before questioning and finding the truth,
I think what we did here is about the same and I think we are pretty close to reality, according to all who came here and gave all their bits of info and logic on what and where their info can fit, we have retract to fit every little bit of info, and took attention to it for both sides, and we use our brain all together, on the case to find the guilty, and innocent,
we did a very good what I call thorough scanning according to me, and yes speculate is a good tool for discovery,
why should it be a tough sell to prove a not guilty , from an not guilty person
bye

IT could be construed as a request to stop, or given the other inquiries for information, its reasonable to think that he’s just saying you don’t need to go that far to meet my requests for information.

Questions for everyone who advances the fallacy that 9-11 operators are vested with some kind of authority to command a citizen to stand down and abstain from exercising their rights.

Was the dispatcher a cop? NO!!! Do they go to the police acedemy? No. Do they carry a badge? No. Do they swear to protect and serve? No. Do emergency dispatchers have legal training? NOPE!!! College? Not typically. What’s the job requirements for a 9-11 operator? GED, high school diploma, or equivalent. It’s a low skills profession, see for yourself, here’s a job app: http://www.wppd.org/employment/comm.htm

So the idea being sold is that some private citizen answering a phone bank, data entering, and call routing – a telecommunicator per the linked job app, is now some how uniquely qualified despite the absence of any professional legal training by virtue of their employer to be treated as some legal authority?

Strawman

@MataHarley:

The context does not support the dispatcher, encouraging Zimmerman to leave his car and track his whereabouts. And, in fact, when Zimmerman did so – 40 seconds after that exchange – politely told him not to do so.

This is the exact sequence:

(1) Zimmerman reported Martin was running.
(2) Dispatcher requested to know which way Martin was running.
(3) Door opened.
(4) Zimmerman made initial assessment of towards “other entrance”
(5) Door shuts

There are seven seconds here.

It is another 9 seconds before dispatcher asks whether Zimmerman is following Martin, during which the dispatcher as to clarification of what “other entrance” means (eg “back entrance”). It is two seconds later that the dispatcher logs that “SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARD BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX”

The dispatcher included information which he must have believed significant, which he had requested from Zimmerman, and may have only been obtainable by Zimmerman getting out of his truck.

The dispatcher then may have recognized that his unclear instructions may have caused Zimmerman to follow, and told him not to follow. Perhaps, the dispatcher meant for Zimmerman to return to his truck. But he must not have regarded this as urgent. He started getting Zimmerman’s name and phone number.

It is not unreasonable that Zimmerman believed that he had complied with the dispatcher’s suggestions, especially since he later tried to explain that he wasn’t at his truck.

@retire05: @retire05:

Dispatcher askes Zimmerman’s name. “George —- he ran.”

At this point you can hear a car door open and the key in ignition alarm going off. You can hear the door shut and the alarm go off and the dispatcher asks if Z is following the suspect and he says “Yes” while breathing heavily. Dispatcher says “We don’t need you to do that.” Zimmerman “Okay” and then the Zimmerman’s breathing becomes normal, not that of a man who is running in persuit.

This is out of sequence. The dispatcher asks Zimmerman’s name after he told Zimmerman not to follow, Zimmerman had acknowledged, and he was catching his breath. This suggests that the dispatcher was not particularly concerned with Zimmerman being out of his truck.

Zimmerman reported that Martin was running. The dispatcher asked which way, and then the door opened, and Zimmerman responded to the question that the dispatcher had asked before the door opened. And it is reasonable for Zimmerman to get out of his truck, even if the dispatcher had not asked for clarifying information.

Nan G.
YES THE WITTNESS IS THE ONLY ONE TO BE BELIEVE, HE WAS THERE, AND EVEN REPLY TO SHUT UP,
HE WAS GOING TO CALL 911, HE EXPLAIN WHAT WAS THERE ,THE RED IS UNDER AND THE OTHER ON TOP BASHING HIS HEAD ON THE CONCRETE, THAT’S WAS HE SAW BEFORE HE DIAL 911, THAN HE CAME TO LOOK AGAIN AND [ DID HE CALL AGAIN? OR WAS HE STILL CONNECTED TO 911?] DUNNO
BUT HE SAID THE MAN WHO WAS ON TOP IS DOWN LOOK DEAD, [ I use the words THE WORDS MIGHT NOT BE SAME BUT MEANT IT what i said]
so all happened while that witness alone is in the action,
not the mother who was not there, but want to believe what she claim of the yell TO BE TRAYVON SHE ALSO SLIP AND RETRACT WHEN SHE SAID AN ACCIDENT,AT A LATER TIME,
and COREY TOOK THAT INFO FROM THE MOTHER ABOUT THE YELL BY TRAYVON ON HER SHEET AND MENTIONED IT
the proof ZIMMERMAN yelled while he was being beat up,and did not seem to be able to move to take physical action until he got the ultimate chance, whom i think was his last chance to survive. WHOM I think happen when he the witness went to call after intervening to say shut up, which would [ I ASSUME NOW] give the ultimate chance to zimmerman, if trayvon made a move of some kind, which zimmerman cease his chance to grab his gun and shoot , my assuming

@jimrtex:

Let’s be clear with exactly what the dispatcher told Zimmerman. The dispatcher, after asking Zimmerman if he was following the suspect, and Zimmerman replying in the affirmative, did not say “Don’t do that.” which would have been a direct order. The dispatcher DID say “We don’t need you to do that.” advising Zimmerman that there was not a requirement for him to follow Martin since the PD had been dispatched.

Zimmerman had already told the dispatcher “he ran” after giving his first name to dispatch. We can assume (and nothing more) that Zimmerman exited his truck to be able to give dispatch information on which way Martin ran. We can also tell from the audio, that Zimmerman’s breathing was labored until he was told “We don’t need you to do that” in response to his affirming that he was following Martin. Within seconds, Zimmerman’s breathing becomes normal, indicating he is no longer running and Zimmerman continues to instruct dispatch where the in route PD officers could find him.

There is a huge difference between being instructed to “Don’t do that [follow]” and “We [police] don’t need you to do that.” The actual text of the conversation indicated that dispatch was simply following protocol by advising a private citizen that they were not needed to follow Martin. Had dispatch told Zimmerman to follow Martin, and Zimmerman was shot by Martin, the Sanford PD would be liable for not instructing a private citizen that they were not required to follow Martin therefore putting a private citizen in possible harm’s way.

Now to the affidavid: Corey has based her petition to the court mainly on what Trayvon Martin’s girl friend has told the SP transpired during her conversation with Martin. But to my knowledge, the Sanford PD, the DA, and the SP have not talked to the girlfriend, only the Martin family lawyer who relayed the contents of the conversation between Martin and his girlfriend and cannot legitimately confirm her account of what transpired during that time, since there is no audio of the actual conversation.

I do find it a bit odd that if Martin was in such close proximity of his father’s girl friends home, that he would seek shelter from rain and not just continue to the house, wanting to get away from Zimmerman. We also have Zimmerman telling dispatch that Martin was coming toward him with his “hand in his waistband.” And if Martin felt he was being followed by someone threatening, why would he talk to his girlfriend and not call 911 to report being followed? If you are out jogging, and someone starts following you, would you use your cell phone to call 911 or call your girlfriend in another town?

And why is it being ignored that Brandy Green, Tracy Martin’s girl friend, told Fox Orlando that Trayvon was sitting on the porch and this man just shot him? That was no where near truthful. And yes, Tracy Martin told Sanford PD that the voice screaming for “help” was not the voice of his son, until he lawyered up and changed his story. The same thing happened with Trayvon’s mother who said that she thought the shooting was an accident and then recanted after she confired with her laywer (and probably Al Sharpton who remains at her side constantly in every interview).

@wigmon:

Martin’s girlfriend called Martin. All we know is the time of the call from the phone company billing record. The phone company may have more accurate time accounts which the prosecutor has no doubt subpoenaed.

If the starting time of the call of 7:12 meant 7:12:00 is accurate then it would be after Zimmerman reported that Martin was running. If it was off a little bit, it could have been that Martin’s phone rang while he was running. So her testimony could indicate whether Martin was consistently attempting to evade Zimmerman, or whether he believed he had done so early in the call. If Martin was really trying to reach home the confrontation would not have taken place where it did.

jimrtex
I think that the most important thing will be the beating broken nose and thefew seconds to prove to the judge that it was his only chance to survive by shooting to end the hurt from the head bashing and from the struggle for the gun,
the lawyer will have to display how that last chance to survive took place, and no other option where possible
if only the police would have arrive then, but there was no one there at that point where it was him or the other,
as clear as his mind was dictating his conduct of survival

more of
we cannot forget that ZIMMERMAN WAS NOT ONLY A CITIZEN, HE WAS A CAPTAIN OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, AND THAT IS GIVING HIM RIGHTS TO CHECK IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD,
AND THAT IS THE REASON WHY HE WAS THERE,

@jimrtex:

Correct; Zimmerman exited his truck after he said “Shit; he’s running.” and dispatch asks “He’s running? Which way is he running?” It is possible that Martin was no longer in Zimmerman’s line of sight, and Zimmerman had to exit his truck to answer “Which way is he running?”. It is at that point Zimmerman’s breathing becamed labored, and dispatch asks if he was following Martin. But I find no sign of labored breathing after dispatch says “we don’t need you to do that” and the conversation continues about Zimmerman’s name, location, phone number etc., and if Zimmerman had been running during that time frame (while still talking to dispatch) his breathing would have been less than normal.

Forensics will show a lot; what the shot at point blank or from a distance of more than 6 inches? Did the bullet enter in a direction that would show Martin to be standing, or on the ground or that it was elevated to reach Martin’s chest from Zimmerman’s prone position? Did Martin sustain any other wounds such as brusing from a punch?

Dumplumber
hi,
yes you are right about it, we are not only on one POST, THERE IS OTHER TO CHECK
FOR WHAT IS GOING ON, AND this post give the many proofs of the failure of GOVERNMENT,
TO NOT WISH TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE ONE WHO ILEGALLY PUT A BOUNTY ON ZIMMERMAN WITH A PRICE, AND THE INCITING OF PEOPLE WHICH GET THE YOUNG TO HATE, AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE LAST ALMOST 4 YEARS LEADING TO MANY CRIMES IN THE COMMUNITY, NOT BEING PUNISH,
WHICH RESULT IN DEATH FOR ONE OF THEM, THEY HAVE PLAYED THE RACE CARD SINCE THEY GOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE BEING HELP BY THE RACE CARD BEGINNING WITH; IT’S BUSH FAULT,
AND AGAIN RESULTED IN A YOUNG MOB AT THE DOOR OF WHERE THE PRESIDENT BUSH WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT MOB WHERE INCITED TO HATE BUSH ENOUGH TO WANT TO HURT THEM, AS SHOWN ON TV THEN, AND STILL THE SAME RACIST HATE CARD IS BEING GIVEN ON EVERY SPPEECH ALONG WITH THE DEMAND FOR MONEY WHICH IS ALWAYS ON THE SPEECH MENU,
OBAMA WANT TO SPEND MORE AND MORE AND ALWAYS ASK FOR MORE MONEY,
NOW HE APPEAR ON EVERY CHANNEL TO SELL HIMSELF FOR THE ELECTION,
AND IT IS THE SAME THING, THE SAME WORDS OF WANTING MONEY IN DIFFERENT WORDS,
AND THE PEOPLE ARE TIRED WITH HIM NOW, AND CAN’T WAIT TO MAKE THE CHANGE
IN NOVEMBER
BEST TO YOU.

@mossomo:

IT could be construed as a request to stop, or given the other inquiries for information, its reasonable to think that he’s just saying you don’t need to go that far to meet my requests for information.

Questions for everyone who advances the fallacy that 9-11 operators are vested with some kind of authority to command a citizen to stand down and abstain from exercising their rights.

I think that the prosecution will attempt to show that that this illustrated that Zimmerman had disregard for human life, rather than that Zimmerman had disobeyed a lawful order.

It will fall apart when the dispatcher is cross-examined, and asked if he told Zimmerman to wait for the police to arrive. He could then be asked where Zimmerman was at the time he was told to wait, and how he knew the caller was George Zimmerman, and whether it was true that the police were on the way at that time (he was just starting up the actual formal report, though he may have typed some information in. He was just then dispatching the first officer, who would not report that he was enroute for another minute).

He might have recognized that Zimmerman was getting out of his truck. But maybe not. If someone says “he’s running” and you immediately ask “which way is he running”, are you going to hear the door opening and the chimes? It is only when they are attempting to arrange a meeting place, that Zimmerman actually mentions his truck.

Here is how I see it:
This is almost a re-play of the Duke LaCrosse Players, accused by a black stripper of rape; the usual and known race hustlers threatening to riot; an overzealous proscecutor smelling a good re-election chance – Mike Nifong – railroading a group of white young man, offering them up as sacrificial lamb to racist and, threatening mob supported by the hack media, racist politicians etc…

Here we have George Zimmermann, a hispanic male, although first attempted to make him a strictly ‘white’ man to fit the narrative by the hack media, the usual race hustlers etc…then he became a ‘white hispanic’ something I’ve never heard before, but hey there is a first for everything, besides it had to fit a racist narrative once again. He was considered a 200+ pound guy, killing an innocent 12-yrs old lookingboy, lightskinned made up by the hack media, rather than the 6.2′, 170lbs football player, with a gold rack in his mouth, posing/pimping as a gangster on facebook, throwing the gang signs, calling himself …nigga..something. What a difference.
We have another proscecutor, running for re-election – Corey-Nifong – delivering a sacrificial lamb to the racist mob, who set a bounty on the young mans head dead or alive, threatening to kill some ‘crackas, honkeys, blue-eyed devils, pigs etc and needing to shed blood to revenge this young thugs life.
This Nifong-type proscecutor felt it right to charge G Zim with 2nd degree murder telling the Martin family ‘warmly’ that she will deliver justice for ‘Trayvon’ – first name base, and thanking them for their support….unethical is not even sufficient for this type of display and, not a professional one at least appearing impartial doing what she suppose to do, rather than what she wants to do. She has an election to win and, a ladder to climb – just like Nifong!
Little did she mention that Martin was not on his way home, but wandering between townhomes off the street, carrying a backpack with a flathead screwdriver, and in possession of a few ‘stolen’ items such as watches etc…
To make a long story short – George Zimmermann is a fairly small man 5.7′ and 160 lbs; he had visible wounds, swellings and gashes on the back of his head, swellings all over his face, bleeding, other larcerations, a broken nose and, large ,wet green stains on the back of his red sweater.

He went to the emergency room and, his injuries were witnessed by several witnesses the next morning.
His life is in danger and, will be for a long time into the future. We have a president, a chief law officer (Holder), the racist lynch mob black panthers, jackson, sharpton, CBC, spike lee who tweeted an adress of an elderly couple resulting death threats to these elderly, a left hack media distorting and outright lying to support a narrative set by this racist club, newspapers joing into the circus supporting the lies – condemning G Zim not only to death due to their narrative, but also passing judgement of guilt followed by sentencing him.

Tell me again, whether this young man will receive a fair trial. He has been sacrificed to a racist lynchmob, initiated by an ‘Nifong type’ proscecutor, going all in to accuse him of murder to set him up to maybe agreeing to a plea bargain, just because she wants to satisfy the racist lynch mob, driven by the occupant in the white house, his chief law officer and, Martins’ parents whom had nothing else important to do upon their sons death than to ‘trademark patent’ of their sons’ name and, sealing his suspension records in school? Really?

While LaRaza came out yesterday, suggesting for hispanics and blacks to get together and defeat, kill their common enemy, black panthers threatened to kill whites – and not a peep from obama and holder?
I think the time has come, where whites need to make themselfs heard loud and clear – not taking this shit any more! You can poke a big dog with a stick only so many times, before hebites you into the arse….enough is enough!
This proscecutor needs to be disbarred, I pray that G Zimmermann does not get ‘Nifonged’ or killed!

She charged G Zim with ‘racial profiling’! Sure, whatever. She forgot to mention that

cali
hi,
where where you all this time? we are over the 600 on the other POST.
thank’s for coming
bye

@MataHarley:

The affidavit of probable cause states:

Zimmerman spoke to the dispatcher and asked for an officer to respond because Zimmerman perceived that Martin was acting suspicious. The police dispatcher informed Zimmerman that an officer was on the way and to wait for the officer.

There were no officers on the way at that time, though the dispatcher was preparing to dispatch them and formally open the report. He did not know where Zimmerman was. He did not know whether Zimmerman was in his car.

His “just let me know if he does anything else” can only be interpreted as a telling Zimmerman to keep observing Martin. The “just” can not be claimed as emphasizing that the only action that Zimmerman should do is observe (eg “just observe” and “don’t protect your life” or “confront Martin “)

“just let me know if you want the two tickets to the baseball game” does not not mean take no other action, don’t bathe, don’t get dressed, don’t go to work. It is simply letting the person know that they should inform them if they do want the tickets. Zimmerman should let the dispatcher know if he saw anything else.

Later the affidavit of probable cause says:

Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn’t want [Martin] to get away before the police arrived. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.

Note: “[Martin]” in the first sentence removes all the totally unsupported fantasy and conjecture of the affidavit. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to determine where Martin was headed, so that the police would know where Martin was when they did arrive (and possibly search along Oregon to the east and southeast of the back entrance to the subdivision). The dispatcher logged this important information.

It is a total misrepresentation that the dispatcher instructed Zimmerman to stop following and wait for the police at anywhere near contemporaneous instances. They were separated by 1-1/2 minutes. And it was Zimmerman’s suggestion that he wait for the officer where he was at, rather than go to some other place such as Zimmerman’s residence or the mailboxes by the clubhouse.

So either the claim is that Zimmerman was “following” for the final 1-1/2 minutes of the call and another 1-1/2 minutes before the altercation began, or that he stopped while the dispatcher was on the phone, and then renewed the effort after he got rid of the dispatcher. In either case, Martin was not trying very hard to get home.

The relentless pursuit claim is simply not going to stand up to beyond a reasonable doubt.

In which case, Zimmerman’s disregard for human life is going to have be established based on events after the surprise encounter near where Zimmerman was at when talking to the dispatcher; unless there are some aspects of Zimmerman’s carrying that were unusual and he admitted to in his initial questioning (eg he put the gun in his holster when Martin was approaching to check him out). But even that could be interpreted as self protection.

jimrtex, don’t you think it might be prudent to wait and see what evidence the prosecutors have compiled and will present, instead of pretending you know everything and need to tell them what’s going on?

An Affidavit of Probable Cause is not a mini, nor detailed/sequential, presentation of all their evidence. It’s merely a summary outline of their conclusions that a crime has been committed, based on the evidence they have. I suggest they have far more than you and I. They keep that evidence close to the vest until after arraignment and the trial commences. At that time, the defense will file for discovery, and be able to plan their own defense strategy.

@MataHarley:

Obviously the dispatcher would want to know if Martin was drawing a weapon.

Really? Your interpretation is correct, but DJ’s is not? Are you now a mind-reader in your part-time job of sticking up for drug-dealers?

MATA
hi,
what you Describe, was it before or after TRAYVON TALK ON HIS CELL PHONE TO A HER AND SHE TOLD HIM TO RUN, AND HE SAID NO?