By Sari Horwitz, Wednesday, April 11, 1:56 PM
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Martin, 17 and unarmed, was shot and killed Feb. 26 by Zimmerman, who said he was acting in self-defense. Police in Sanford, Fla., where the shooting took place, did not charge Zimmerman, citing the state’s “stand your ground” law.
Corey told reporters Tuesday night that she would hold a news conference about the case within 72 hours. A news release from her office said the event will be held in Sanford or Jacksonville, Fla.
Benjamin Crump, who is representing the Martin family, said earlier this week that Corey’s office had asked where Trayvon’s parents would be each day this week. They arrived Wednesday in Washington for a civil rights conference organized by the Rev. Al Sharpton, where they are scheduled to speak.
The announcement of a charge against Zimmerman would come a day after Zimmerman’s lawyers withdrew from the case, citing their inability to contact Zimmerman.
Lawyers Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig Tuesday expressed concern about Zimmerman’s emotional and physical well-being, saying he has taken actions without consulting them. They also said they do not know where Zimmerman is.
“You can stop looking in Florida,” Uhrig told reporters. “Look much further away than that.”
Corey said Monday that she would not bring the case before a grand jury, which was expected to convene this week. She said her decision to forgo the grand jury should not be viewed as a factor in determining whether charges will be filed.
Corey has indicated in recent weeks that she might not need a grand jury to bring charges against Zimmerman.
The lawyers said they stand by their assertions that Zimmerman acted in self-defense when he killed the 17-year-old, who was unarmed, but they acknowledged that they formed their impressions without meeting Zimmerman.
© The Washington Post Company
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: BTW, I think you commented on the wrong thread. This is what Larry is talking about
@MataHarley:
What is the start and end time for this?
He is the same distance from his truck during the final 1-1/2 minutes of the phone call with the dispatcher, as he chit-chats about his name, phone number, where he wants to meet with the police officer, etc. Turn the fantasy mode off, and explain why it would be expected that Zimmerman would be expected to be returning to his truck only after terminating the call with the dispatcher.
It was actually on Martin’s record as an incoming call. We don’t know the actual time. Perhaps the phone company does, and if so the prosecutor would have subpoenaed these by now.
The original recordings of the 911 calls that the City of Sanford posted had time stamps on them. They later decided that was not so smart, and posted them again. I’ve never listened for these.
But we know when the first officer arrived, and we know he arrived at the front of a house to the east on Retreat View Circle, so he had to be redirected by 911 calls (unless he called Zimmerman). And we know the time interval from when one of the 911 callers called (he had seen the fight, and was running upstairs to call 911 when he heard the shot), and when he reported flashlights in his backyard (the interval from start of call, to report of flashlights is 1:04). We also have a 911 call with 0:45 seconds of screaming before the gunshot).
Putting all these together and the confrontation begins a lot closer to 7:15 than 7:16. But the phone call may have ended before 7:16:00.
Martin must have run as long as Zimmerman walked, or at least as far. And it may have occurred entirely before the phone call began. So how much progress did Martin make in those 3 minutes?
Dang… I provided the audio again so you could simply answer your own question. D/O at 2’09 on the audio, D/C at 2’14, movement slower movement starts at 2’14, fast wind past cell speaker mic starts about 2’19”. Steady movement stops at 2’41 or 2’42.
That’s 32-33 seconds including getting out of the car. If you just want to take the wind past mic movement, it’s even less distance from his car at 21 to 22 seconds. He made it 250′ to the end of the path on the eastern N to S leg of Retreat View Circle in that time? Don’t think so. At a fitness walkers max pacing, that’s about 110 feet he could get, unless he was running. A major baseball league player would take an average of 7.6 feet per second, running 160 feet in 21 seconds to first base. He sure isn’t likely to out run a major league player to get 250 feet or more in that same time.
Don’t know if he was or wasn’t running. No sound of feet hitting the pavement, and the movement pace doesn’t support a run… years of recording and cutting foley movement has it’s benefits. But that’s a question only Zimmerman can answer. Was he walking fast or running? Who knows except him.
What time was it if we use the hang up time from the PD call logs? Well, let’s round it up to 7:14pm when he hung up. (last entry about have the LEO call him was at 7:13:41, add another 00:00:12 seconds for the adieus) His “thanks” was a 4’05” on the audio, say 7:14pm at that time. He stopped moving to talk with the dispatcher 1’19” earlier, or about 7:12:41pm, if roughly translated from the PD call log time.
The confrontation happened approx 7:16pm. So you tell me, jimrtex. When he hung up, he was right where he was when he stopped moving… perhaps 110 to 160/165 feet away from his vehicle. If he’s returning to his car, it sure shouldn’t take two minutes to retrace his steps.
We don’t know where Martin was when he started running/walking fast (per the girl’s account to media). In fact, we have no evidence of Martin’s path thru the neighborhood at all… only speculation at this point. But the distance from the start of the sidewalk from the road to the “tee” in the path, then south to Green’s building is about 493′. If he ran at the speed of a major league player, that would take 1’10”. But if Zimmerman were close to that tee when he stopped and finished his phone call, he would see right where Martin ran.
But Martin’s progress is a non issue. Martin also enjoys SYG rights and actually is the one who perceives he is in imminent danger, and has no duty to retreat. Nor is there isn’t anything slithery about a person, being tracked, not wanting to lead a stranger following him to his door.
I find it ironic you and drj have this notion that if either of you follow me when I’m doing nothing wrong, and I feel threatened, that if you kill me, it’s my fault because I chose not to run to my house and reveal to you where I live.
@jimrtex:
You know what, Jim?
This post reminded me of a big and important part of the murder case I sat on.
You (and Mata, for that matter) have pulled together many threads and snippets of facts to try to create a logical chain of events.
It may be that, during the trial, we see a very similar segment but with one big difference: confirmed facts, perhaps even videos of persons walking, trotting, running through the various scenarios until one version rings most true to the jury.
One other thing….
I keep misreading your name as jimtrex.
It has caused me to pull out my old T Rex albums.
LOL!
Oddly, they stand the test of time better than most.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Martin’s family’s lawyers were the first to report this. The call was in Martin’s phone record as an incoming call.
Their version was that she heard the very start of the altercation, and heard what she later perceived to be a shove that caused Martin’s earphones to come loose and the call to be disconnected. And then was unable to connect after calling back.
Earlier in the call she said she had urged Martin to run, but he told her that he would “walk fast”.
She had been on the phone with Martin for 6 hours that day. She was aware that a stranger was apparently following Martin, and had heard the start of an altercation before being disconnected. She would have heard sooner or later that Martin was dead, and that it was in Sanford when he was returning from the store. But she didn’t contact anyone?
It will interesting whether the phone company has more accurate time stamps for her call.
While the timing kind of fits, there are about 3 minutes in the middle that are missing. Were they idly talking, or was she being silent because Martin didn’t know where Zimmerman was.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
There is one 911 call with 45 seconds of yelling and screaming before the gunshot. There might have been a few seconds before they called 911. But there was another 911 call where the caller reported that she had heard loud arguments before the screaming and yelling – this call was very upset that she had not done anything to intervene, and apparently didn’t call 911 until after the gunshot. But it could mean the other 911 caller may have called when they heard the argument, and connected almost coincidentally with the start of screaming and yelling.
If there was something about you are going to die tonight, it might have come during this long period of fighting and yelling.
@MataHarley:
What remains is none of us actually know what happened… and most especially in that 1-1/2 minutes Zimmerman remained in the area where he told the dispatcher he would be at, and most certainly none of us, including Mata Harley, know that Zimmerman was “continuing to hunt”.
Woof… incorrect. Zimmerman did not tell the dispatcher where he would be because he did not know where he would be. Thus the request for the LEO to call him.
He changed his mind about meeting the LEO at the mailboxes, which was the alternate to the truck since he couldn’t give a definitive address to the dispatcher. A simple ID of the SUV’s model and it’s location on Twin Trees Lane would have sufficed, but apparently no one thought of that blatantly simple solution.
The last request, other than cordial signing off, was Zimmerman requesting that the LEO call him so he could tell him where he was. So your statement, “Zimmerman remained in the area where he told the dispatcher he would be at…” is incorrect. The dispatcher had no idea where he was, except the obvious that he was no longer at his truck since he moved away, and that refused to agree to meet at the mailboxes by the clubhouse.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
The burglaries in the area were of the type break-in grab some stuff, run. The one where they were caught, the cop asked if the laptops were their’s, they said no, the cop asked if he could look at it, and the serial numbers matched one that had been stolen.
A previous time, Zimmerman had watched someone go up to a house and back, and again, and he knew the resident’s weren’t at home.
Martin was some distance away. Zimmerman made an initial assessment that he was running for the back gate, and the truck door didn’t close until 7 seconds after he reported Martin was running. Was Zimmerman overtly pursuing Martin, or was he following in his wake to see which way he was really running?
If the dispatcher believed that Zimmerman had placed himself in a dangerous position, what should he have done?
Asked for Zimmerman’s name and phone number?
@MataHarley:
Zimmerman attempted to tell the dispatcher where he wanted to meet the police officer (which was where he was at). But the dispatcher got confused.
He asked that the dispatcher have the police officer call him and, “I will tell him where I am at.”
The dispatcher was confused. He thought it was an apartment complex. It was hopeless to explain to the dispatcher where he was at. He wanted to be able to give the police officer who could drive to where he was at in 20 seconds from the entrance.
You are correct that the dispatcher did not know Zimmerman’s location beyond “where Zimmerman is at”.
@MataHarley:
The dispatcher knew one address that he could type into his computer. He suggested that location, and it appears that it was logged almost simultaneous with its suggestion. Zimmerman reluctantly agreed – and then realized that it was not near where he was at, was further from his truck than he currently was, was not near where Martin was last seen, or even where Martin was originally seen.
People have been so obsessed with the details of this case that a perfect mirror of it has gone by with barely any notice.
Lots more here:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/crime/taco-bell-shooting-victim-was-holding-leash-not-weapon-4-4-2012
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/crime/one-dead-in-shooting-outside-taco-bell-4-3-2012
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/sw_valley/family-of-man-shot-at-taco-bell-talks-to-fox-10-04142012
Couple of points,
At least the shooter followed the instructions of the Taco Bell employee who told them to drive forward.
Sometimes, when you are walking and a car nearly hits you (because it ”drove forward”) you might just raise your hands or arms in a protective stance.
The driver interpreted the raised hands as a threat so he shot the dog walker to death from inside his car.
The shooter has not YET been arrested.
See?
Lots of parallels.
Go to it!
@MataHarley:
OK, I was trying to figure whether you were including the time before the door closed – and possibly a couple of seconds before movement started. There is some rustling sound as he gets out, and then it is relatively quiet after the door closes. But perhaps there is some noise suppression and volume balancing in the recording system, when people are talking, the background noise gets suppressed?
And movement appeared to be slowing before 2:41.
While Martin may have been running for 33 seconds, Zimmerman wasn’t.
I suspect he went to the eastern end of the sidewalk on Retreat View Circle after he was off the phone with the dispatcher. Since he was getting an address, he could have walked south 20 feet or so. The street numbers on Retreat View Circle are numbered counterclockwise, on Twin Trees, north to south, so in that area they are numbered in opposite directions.
He might not have made it to the tee during his initial movement, or perhaps as he slowed he was getting past the north side of the first unit, and he walked to the tee as he talked to the dispatcher. It is possible that he hadn’t realized that he was following. If Martin were 100 feet away when he began running, it would be difficult from a parked truck on the south side of Twin Trees (less likely to park in front of driveways, especially since he said there was no address; nor into the curve which would mean blocking the cross-walk, and would be difficult to observe over his shoulder.
The cut-through sidewalk is actually parallel to the backs of the houses to the north. Where Oregon turns at the northeast corner of the subdivision it widens out, and the north loop of Retreat View Circle bends slightly south (5 degrees) before the corner to the east loop to accommodate this. The last units on the north loop are angled slightly to match, and since the sidewalk is behind them, it matches them to give the same amount of space behind their patios.
So the sidewalk is closer to the north end of the unit on east loop of Retreat View Circle than it is to unit on Twin Trees. There is one small window at ground level on the end of the end units. As a result, it would be difficult/impossible to see the east end of the sidewalk from where Zimmerman was parked, and there are trees alongside the ends of the buildings. It would be a natural reaction to get out of the truck to move just a few feet north to see where Martin was headed, since the dispatcher had asked for that information – which he then logged.
The dispatcher realized that Zimmerman had started to move, which was likely into the cut through. Zimmerman might not have even recognized that he was doing so. He had got out of the truck in response to the dispatcher’s question, and was explaining where the “other entrance” was as he began to continue to determine where Martin was heading. Until Martin turns south, it is conjecture that he is heading toward the back entrance.
Once Zimmerman realizes that he was following, he slows and then stops, and has lost sight of Martin. If Martin is trying to evade Zimmerman who Martin had observed in a truck, it would make sense to go to a different street, the one on which his father’s girlfriend lives on.
Zimmerman’s father observed the next-day walk through and saw his son walk to the east end of the sidewalk and then return towards the west. We don’t know what Zimmerman told the police (eg after the dispatcher hung up, I realized they needed a street address, I decided to walk to the closest street and get the address). Maybe he did decide to see if he could see Martin, who he had lost sight of 2 minutes ago. This is not an utter disregard of human life (certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt).
From the tee to the east end of the side walk, and south a few feet to get an address and back is 250 feet or so. 5 feet per second, and it could be done in 50 seconds. He is walking across the tee when Martin shows up, and perhaps he walks south – what are you doing here, what’s your problem, no problem, turns and begins to call 911, and Martin attacks.
As I’ve pointed out the physics numerous times, there is only so far Zimmerman can go even at a fitness walk in that time frame. However your first statement, that he went to the eastern end of the sidewalk *after* he ws off the phone with the dispatcher, is the point that the prosecutors are likely to make. That Zimmerman did not cease his following of Martin even after being advised not to. Additionally, since so many believe that Zimmerman agreed not to, he obviously did not honor his own word. But I will point out that if Zimmerman were parked where we believe he was, he has a clear line of sight from there, down the path to where it intersectswith the eastern leg of the Retreat View Circle loop.
We also don’t know that Martin was “running”. Girlfriend says Martin refused to run but agreed to “walk fast”. Zimmerman used the term “run”, but did he mean it figuratively, or in the manner of what Zimmerman viewed as a hurried “escape”. We don’t know, but it’s obvious that Martin was attempting to avoid any confrontation with Zimmerman. It’s a he said/she said conflict.
Nor do we know where Martin was when he changed his pace. So far, via the theories everyone wants to put forth here, Martin had to pass Zimmerman right on by while he was on the phone, and Zimmerman did nothing. If he wanted to know why Martin was in the neighborhood, that was the perfect opportunity. Since Martin was aware of Zimmerman “following him”, what we don’t know is what Zimmerman may have done that raised Martin’s suspicions prior to Zimmerman calling the PD. Again, more info that will have to be compared to Zimmerman’s account, and that of the girlfriend, were she on the phone with him minutes before her last call to Martin at 7:12.
But I’m not making any final assumptions as to the actual location of either, or their movements. The investigation would revolve around recreating that as accurately as possible by taking into consideration all accounts. And frankly, there’s so much we don’t know about the events prior to Zimmerman’s call, and the lost two minutes. However the prosecutor’s affidavit – again, not a presentation of their evidence in any detail or sequence – indicates they are likely to be focusing on what lead up to the confrontation. Not the confrontation itself.
@MataHarley:
It kind of looks like it would be, but it really isn’t. The sidewalk is not parallel to the north side of the units on Twin Trees, and the east loop of Retreat View Circle, it is parallel to the backs of the units on the east end of the north loop of Retreat View Circle. Retreat View Circle angles slightly south (about 95 degrees) because Oregon widens out when it makes the turn at the northeast corner of the subdivision. The planning commission would likely not approve a sharp corner of the wall right at the intersection because it would block visibility of traffic.
The sidewalk has to be somewhat away from people’s back porches. It can be closer to the ends of the units, which have only a small window at ground level. They’d probably like to cut off passage between the units, but this would pose a problem with fire protection. So instead there are trees between units, and along the north end of the North-South units, for a bit of privacy from the sidewalk.
Depending on exactly where you place Zimmerman’s truck, and how close to the curb he is parked, it is a real close issue whether the east end if visible, even if there weren’t trees, and glare from the porchlight.
Get out of the truck and move to the center of the street, and the view is much better.
@MataHarley:
The police will have his statement he made the night of the shooting; as well as what he made when he did the walk through the next day. He will have told them where his truck was (maybe it was still there the next day). He would have explained where Martin was, and where he ran. During the walk through he will be more precise. Where was Martin when he started running. Where was Martin when Zimmerman started following (with his initial distance and a 11-second head start). When did he go out of sight.
If Zimmerman said that he was reaching the tee when the dispatcher reminded him not to follow, he might say, I took a few more steps and looked south and didn’t see Martin. And then the dispatcher asked about meeting. He might not even remember that the dispatcher asked his name at that time. He’d explain how he tried to explain to the dispatcher where he was, etc. Then after the dispatcher got off the phone, he might have been thinking about why the dispatcher couldn’t understand, and realized that he needed an address. So he walks to the east, and is returning back.
What is the prosecutor going to do then? “Jurors, obviously someone who is claiming self-defense is going to lie, or modify the facts. So let’s imagine that George Zimmerman actually went to the east end of the walk but then looped around the unit and trapped Trayvon Martin. Or perhaps there is an another explanation. Let your imagination run wild.” Do you think the judge is going to go for that?
If Martin had been attempting to get home, he could have been there. If his girlfriend says that he was “walking fast” the whole 4 minutes then he wasn’t walking toward home. If he had hidden, or lost Zimmerman, he might have gone back to talking to his girlfriend. But then the encounter would not have been as a result of Zimmerman “continuing” to follow him. Getting out of your truck and following someone with a head start, plus 10 seconds of running away does not demonstrate utter disregard for human life, especially when you stopped after the dispatcher reminded you to. Now perhaps Neighborhood Watch has some safe phrases: “OK what is your name” and “George” really means return to your truck .
@MataHarley:
Speak for yourself. If he was progressing normally at even a strolling pace he would have cleared the area while Zimmerman was on the phone. And if he was walking by the truck it was just as the dispatcher was telling him “Let me know if he is doing anything”
@Nan g (#67),
I fail to see the ‘perfect mirror’ you describe. In the Zimmerman/Martin case, you had a man armed with a gun presumably pursue the victim even after calling 911 and knowing police were on the way. The pursuit turning into confrontation, and confrontation ended with a death by gunshot.
In the case you cite, the confrontation had no pursuit elements. It started with an on-the-spot incident that became a confrontation that ended with a death by gunshot.
The perfect mirror is not there. The first case, there was an attempt to retreat from confrontation, as the 911 tape alludes to Martin running off. It the second case, neither man retreated. That’s not to say that the armed driver was in his right, but the circumstances are definitely different.
ZIMMERMAN told the police that during the bashing his head on the concrete, MARTIN GOT VERY EXITED WHEN HE SAW A GUN , so I say, there was not only his life pending because of the bashing head, but his life pending on if MARTIN get the hold of the gun, he would also die, as MARTIN TOLD HIM, HE WOULD KILL HIM, AND BY THE WAY A SON IN THAT CONDITION AFTER WARD, DOESN’T LIE
TO HIS FATHER if he tell what happened and show his bruises
IN SHORT, ZIMMERMAN HAD TWO GOOD REASON TO USE HIS SURVIVAL TOOL WHILE BEING PRISONER UNDER THAT MASSIVE WEIGHT, AND AS SOON AS A CHANCE CAME HE SH0OT, AND DON’T GO THINKING HE HAD MINOR BRUISES, IT AINT SO MINOR IF YOU PUT YOURSELF IN HIS SHOES and the hurt is there, try to bash your head on the wall when your angry, to feel it,, THE HEAD IS NOT HARD AS CONCRETE,
AND to finish, I must add that I would feel very SAFE, between NAN and AQUA anywhere,
from what I learned
@ matahurley One mph is about 1.5 ft/s ( exact conversion: 88ft/sec=60mph). A brisk walk is about 4 mph or 6ft/s. Top racewalkers cover 20 kilometers(12 mile) in less than 1hr, 20 min or at speeds nearly 10 mph or
15 ft/s. A very slow jog is 6mph or 9ft/s . A four minute mile is 15mph or 22ft/s. A 5 sec 40 yard dash is 24 ft/s. . A 10sec 100 yard dash is 30 ft/s. I don’t know where you got that major league ball players take 21 seconds to make it to first base ,as 4.3 seconds is considered average for right handed hitters and 4,2 seconds for left handed hitters. Zimmerman could have easily been going 12ft/s and covered 250 ft in 21 seconds.
@Phil-351:
It was not a 911 call.
When Zimmerman was told that police were on the way, they had not been dispatched. The dispatcher didn’t really know where Zimmerman was, or whether he was in a vehicle or not. As he was explaining where the police officer should come to, Martin starts running. The dispatcher urgently asked “which way?” It was only then that the car door opened, and Zimmerman reported where he though Martin was heading, and explaining that the “other entrance” was the “back entrance”. After 11 seconds it sounds like Zimmerman started moving. By that time, Martin could easily have been where the confrontation occurred. Zimmerman could just as easily been attempting to keep Martin in sight as “pursuing” him.
Where the confrontation occurred matches Zimmerman having stopped and waiting in the area where he had lost sight of Martin. It doesn’t match continued pursuit.
@jimrtex
Simple semantics. Doesn’t change anything. It was reported as a 911 call. If he talked to a dispatcher or police personnel, he was still told police were ‘on the way’. So, he knew that. He followed or pursued Martin. That is not in question. The question is, did he break off to meet with officers as the police operator requested. We do not know. Or did he stay in the area and ‘beat the bushes’? We do not know.
Phil-351
hi, there is a new info at the POST ; THE MARTIN ZIMMERMAN FROM BlahBlahBlah on the timing.
it change the timing, from his take and make sense,
now I say, ZIMMERMAN, IS GIVEN TWO OPTIONS, WHICH IS, YOU DON’T NEED TO DO THAT, AND SOMETHING LIKE, KEEP CHECKING AND LET US KNOW,
HE HIS NOT A ROBOT TO OBEY AND TURN HEEL AS SOON AS HE HANG UP, HE WILL STILL CONTINUE TO CHECK UP,
It doesn’t mean that he pursue MARTIN like a dog hunter, as some said, and when he is not seeing MARTIN, he leave to go back to his car, and from there somewhere, at some second time the few words exchange and plus the words; I am going to kill you, and we learn also that
MARTIN PUT HIS HAND ON ZIMMERMAN FACE, PLUS THE NOSE BROKEN, PLUS THE HEAD BASHING ON CONCRETE, AND THE PART ABOUT THE HAND ON THE FACE IS A TIME QUESTION OF WHEN HE DID, BEFORE OR WHEN ZIMMERMAN WAS YELLING OR ELSE
@Phil-351:
Zimmerman was feeling threatened as Martin was approaching him, and said “get an officer over here” The dispatcher replied: “Yeah we’ve got them on the way. Just let me know if he does anything else.”
There may not have been any officers actually dispatched at that time, and it is not obvious that this was a directive to wait for the officers. Zimmerman appeared to relax, and began to explain where he was at – the dispatcher was apparently satisfied to type the address of the clubhouse into the computer.
While Zimmerman was trying to explain where he was at, he observed Martin running. The dispatcher urgently requested “which way?”. If we are going to cast the previous conversation as an instruction to wait for police, then we can cast this as a demand or directive to determine which way Martin had run.
The door of the truck then came open, and as Zimmerman was making his initial assessment that Martin was heading toward the other entrance, and explaining to the dispatcher that meant the “back entrance”. The dispatcher thought this information was significant enough to log. It was only then, 11 seconds after Martin began to run, that Zimmerman began to follow. Martin could have been easily 200 feet away. That is not pursuit, that is trying to keep him in sight.
The dispatcher heard Zimmerman running, because of wind noise in phone, or breathing. He asked him if he was following, Zimmerman said yeah. The dispatcher told him not to do that, and Zimmerman responded OK, and his pace slowed and stopped.
At this moment, Zimmerman is 20 seconds away from his truck. The dispatcher if he were particularly concerned that Zimmerman was following, or not in a safe location did not audibly express his concern. He asked for Zimmerman’s name. Zimmerman gave him his name, and said “he ran”, indicating that Martin was out of sight.
The dispatcher then asked for his last name, and his phone number. Since there was no concern from the dispatcher, Zimmerman could reasonably believe he had stopped following. The dispatcher could claim, since I heard a reluctant “OK”, and another dozen steps, I figured he had instantly reversed course and was returning to his truck, so I asked him his name. But it is just as reasonable for Zimmerman to say I stopped following.
It was only after getting this information, that the dispatcher asked if Zimmerman wanted to meet with the officer. Zimmerman tried to explain where he was at, the dispatcher got sidetracked and then tried to arrange a meeting at the mailbox. While the dispatcher might not have known, Zimmerman knew he wasn’t that close to the mailboxes. So to Zimmerman, that is not a suggestion to “wait” for the officers. Zimmerman figured he couldn’t make the dispatcher understand, but figured he could once the officer was at the front gate.
If the dispatcher is called to testify, he will be asked about his training, and why callers shouldn’t follow. In particular whether there is a concern about their safety. After you politely suggested that the caller not follow, what did you did do? I asked his name and phone number. When it is later shown that the dispatcher did not even know whether Zimmerman lived in the area, it is going to be clear that Zimmerman did comply with his suggestion. To stop movement and talk with the dispatcher for another minute and half, is not “to follow”, and whatever label we want to call it – it was not chase down; pursuit; or hunting down. And even if we someone how characterize it as “to follow” it does not demonstrate utter disregard for human life.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
We now know that Trayvon’s judgment was not unlikely impaired because of drug use and we now know that Trayvon Martin had a recent history of violence.
Well whether you find it creditable or not the exchange did as a matter of fact lead immediately to a punch being thrown. Thereafter within less than two minutes it lead to Trayvon Martin assaulting George Zimmerman with a deadly weapon (the concrete sidewalk). Given Martin’s history of drug use and given that Martin was engaged in an assault with a deadly weapon why would it not be creditable for Martin to have told his victim he intended to kill him?
Moreover your source for the dialogue is not the “girl-friend” It was Crump. The girl-friend’s first hand account sounded rather ghetto. Without doubt Crump has sanitized and shaped this report to exonerate “Saint Skittles”
There is no proof that conversation ever took place, save for the media accounts of GZ’s story alone, Mike. Please don’t mix up facts and media stories. Nor is GZ’s statement necessarily the way it went down. That will be for a jury to decide when they are listening to testimony about GZ’s movements and paths in the minutes before them meeting, not you.
Nor are the bruised knuckles an indication of who started the physical fight. Do you know via any evidence or testimony that GZ did not push or attempt to detain Martin? Of course not. Speculation on your part. And again, not a lick of it has to do with the three elements of murder two.
Martin was not the only one with a “history of violence”… inconvenient, eh? Even more inconvenient that there is a police record on Zimmerman’s, and none on Martin… just stories And GZ was older than Martin at his arrest.
And never in the history of our country has the education level of a witness, or their grasp of the language, made their testimony less valuable if it were pertinent, relevant and admissible. Petty slam.
retire, I’d never be dumb enough to get myself into the position of getting my head bashed because I wouldn’t have attempted to follow or search for him. Pointless question. Were I that irresponsible, I would be up for murder two, just like Zimmerman.
As for you complaining about my answer… sigh… please look at your question again. You said, verbatim, “I continue to put to you about what you would have done had you been in Zimmerman’s situation.” Zimmerman’s “situation” did not begin with the head banging. My response was appropriate for your question.
Aqua
I made some comments also further and you said one thing, that is what GEORGE ZIMMERMAN REPLY
TO MARTIN, when he ask, why are you following me, and he reply, what are you doing here,
you mention it, and I find, that is one mistaken answer from ZIMMERMAN, even though I am on his side,
and it won’t change my mind, because he made that error,
he should have reply something like, I’m a captain on neighborhood watch look at the sign there, there was many break in and I’m here to check on the community,
or something alike, maybe shorter said, instead of a question, which turn TRAYVON MARTIN already disturb and frustrated, to have been sent from his school at MIAMI TO FLORIDA with his father, it turn him into worse anger
to want to beat him upwho knows if it would have change the outcome at the end, maybe yes or no, it doesn’t make him guilty because of that reply,
that is the one mistake I find of ZIMMERMAN, and I’m late to find it too, after all I said about him being innocent, I had overlook this reply, or not read it before,
it’s good to re-read again the thread from the beginning, after having gone so far.
bye
@MataHarley:
Why of course. And of course you offer similar caution about Dee Dee’s account of the conversation? As you also do about Ben Crump’s account of Dee Dee’s account of the conversation?
Perhaps George Zimmerman’s account of the conversation is a likely story. He did give it soon after the event and I understand the Sanford police administered behavioral based lie detector test was to Zimmerman at that time and that Zimmerman passed that test. That of course is not the fulness of the evidence and any opinion we form at this time best be tentative therefore.
You did similarly caution Mr. Openid about Ben Crump’s account of Dee Dee’s account of the conversation?
Mike O’Malley, Dee Dee’s statement, taken by the State, has been released, and in her own words. We have not not read GZ’s multiple statements because they haven’t yet been released. However they will within the next couple weeks because of the recent order by Lester. GZ and Dees statements will be a he said/she said kind of thing unless either of them can be substantiated by supporting testimony by others. Accepting either as unquestionable truth requires a trust and credibility factor. GZ’s credibility factor has taken a lot of hits lately with his decisions, just as his decisions that night are the reason he’s on trial.
Don’t place much stock in the stress test GZ was administered. Never was in question that he didn’t seem to be too addled about the event, as one witness noted. Nor was he confused or unsteady after his supposed brush with “near death”. He was alert, calm, walking around and full functioning. All people are different, but if I had just shot a teenager, I tend to think I’d be rattled.
It begs to be noted that most things you say aren’t really compelling, and generally just a bunch of emotional hooey. So I brush over most of your stuff, and totally bypass Ivan’s. What I do is try to correct misinformation along the way. So why would I remember what question you asked to who sometime in the past?
That said, I answered your question as asked, and I also answered your question after your whining about the answer in comment #82. So perhaps I’d better repeat it for you…
I’ll only add to that is that if I repeated Zimmerman’s incredibly irresponsible mistakes, shot Martin in panic and desperation (tho GZ was not in any agitated state following the death, and breezed thru stress tests, as noted above), and were then appropriately charged with murder two (just like Zimmerman), I’d plea bargain for a lower manslaughter case because I’d know that the event never had to happen had I not made the choices I did.
Your problem is you just don’t like the answers to the question you get. That’s not my problem. It’s unlikely that most responsible gun owners and neighborhood watch individuals would make the decisions GZ did – most especially since TM was not committing, or appearing to commit a crime…. except, perhaps, in GZ’s mind.
Just for clarification, Zimmerman was not administered a “lie detector” or polygraph test. He was administered a voice stress test. It’s not admissible in a court of law, and the debate rages over it’s accuracy. And like a polygraph, one trained or with an extremely cool head under stress can register little or no negative results. It is not an accurate measure of any guilt or innocent. It *may*, however, give one indication that the one tested doesn’t register any stress or nervousness. Zimmerman’s apparent calm or lack of agitation after the shooting has been mentioned by one witness, I believe. The test may indicate that is the case. It may also be construed as no remorse or stress about taking the life of another human being.
I’ve often thought it odd that GZ, who’s never been in the military nor combat, seemed rather nonchalant about shooting a teen. His apology even seemed odd that it had to qualify a perception of age. Contrast that with the guy who killed the man sexually abusing his four year old daughter. He actually expressed remorse, indicating his intent was not to kill. Good on him. Mine would have been…. and without a lick of remorse.
Mike O’ Malley
and beside, why would he call for help 14 times
bye
@MataHarley:
“You said, verbatim, ‘I continue to put to you about what you would have done had you been in Zimmerman’s situation.
I have asked that question a number of times before, adding the factor of you finding you were having your head based into a concrete sidewalk. I thought you were smart enough to understand the original question stood, although I had shortened it for expediency. Instead, you used the last version to, once again, dodge answering what you would have done while being subjected to an action that could cause you severe brain damage, or worse.
Sigh………
@MataHarley:
Oh, my, you never fail to bring a smile to my face with your attempt to circumvent actual questions.
“retire, I would never be dumb enough to get myself into a position of getting my head bashed because I wouldn’t have attempted to follow or search for him. Pointless question.”
Then never, NEVER join a neighborhood watch program, because Mata, that is exactly what neighborhood watch volunteers do, they watch, and search, for those who might be up to no good, and do it exactly the way GZ did, while in contact with local law enforcement. But in the event that you ever are mistaken for someone who is following another, and you find yourself getting your head bashed into a concrete sidewalk, although you may be armed, you need to just lie there and accept your fate.
And I doubt you would plea bargain, knowing you were facing 30 years. If you were honest, you would admit that you would hire the finest defense attorney your money could buy to get you off any charge of murder made against you.
And your problem is that you judge others by your own standards. Your answers make no difference to me except to show that you want to ignore the obvious, that you would take any action available to you to prevent bodily harm or death.
Was it you, or Aye, that tried to make the claim that GZ was guilty of “stalking”, when Florida statutes are quite clear as to what constitutes “stalking” and GZ did not meet that criteria? It is not illegal to “follow” someone during a singular event. It is not even illegal to speak to someone you don’t know, for if it were, everytime you asked a stranger for directions, you would be subject to arrest. It is not even illegal to sit on a park bench and view someone sitting across from you with binoculars, if you so choose.
Oh, and good news about the Dee Dee interview by Bernie de la Rionda; he has now put himself into a position of being able to be questioned, on the stand, about his interview with Dee Dee. It will be easy to make the argument that the interview was leading the “witness”, on BDLR’s part. Unfortunately, Dee Dee’s sworn testimony pretty well substantiates the chain of events as initially reported by GZ, from GZ sitting in his “car” while he was being observed by Martin, to substantiating that GZ had lost sight of Martin, to Martin telling Dee Dee that he was by his father’s hosue, to Martin speaking to GZ first, to hearing a “thump” (I believe it was) indicating that Martin had slugged GZ.
I don’t anticipate that the prosecution will call Dee Dee to the stand, although O’Mara will be able to call her as a “hostile” witness. And will totally destroy her “testimony” of hearing “grass.”
retire, the difference between GZ and myself, had I done everything he did, is that I’d realize that my decisions bore some responsibility for the death to begin with.
The NSA manual, which I have posted here several times before, proves that your idea of neighborhood watch is misinformed. In fact, you went to extreme lengths to say that GZ was not acting in his capacity of neighborhood watch for that very reason. How is it Aye puts it? Pick a horse and ride it.
Lastly, Zimmerman is not charged with “stalking”, so the FL definition of stalking isn’t applicable. The “criminal act” GZ is charged with as one of the elements of murder two is defined as a series of acts that created the conditions that led to the death.
If my answers make no difference, then stop asking. You asked from my perspective… no, make that whined that I (or Aye) have never answered…. so I answered. Still you whine. Perhaps this hula dance you do when you get what you want is why I don’t much bother with your hypotheticals that have little bearing on the legalities of the case.
I don’t judge GZ by my standards. I judge him by the standards of the charge he is facing. Whether it’s Zimmerman, me or you, our duplication of those same actions that night would land us in the exact same position… facing charges. However being as my approach to situations is nothing like Zimmerman’s, such a duplication would be impossible.
MATA
we know that not everyone react the same way to a stressing event, and ZIMMERMAN LOOK LIKE A STOIK
SELF RESERVE PERSON WHERE ALL THE STRESS IS CONTAINED INSIDE THEIR GUTS SECRETLY
FOR NO ONE TO DETECT, AND IT IS THE ONE WHO SUFFER THE MOST, BECAUSE IT’S LIKE THEY ARE LIVING WITH A BOMB INSIDE THEM, READY TO EXPLODE THEM AND KILL THEM WITH
SOME KIND OF CANCER APPEARING AT LATER TIMES, BECAUSE THEY KEPT THE BILE INSIDE, AS OPPOSE TO OTHER WHICH COME OUT WITH THEIR FEELING AND STRESS FOR ALL TO NOTICE.
BYE
@retire05:
Actually, no, neighborhood watch programs across this country DON’T do it exactly the way GZ did.
First, if he was on patrol (and the conflicting stories there still have to be sorted out) then he violated at least two basic guidelines: 1) He was armed and 2) He pursued. Neighborhood watch programs in general, and the one in place in the Twin Lakes neighborhood prohibit weapons while on patrol as well as pursuit of suspects.
Still stuck on that old, dusty issue, eh?
Well, perhaps I should remind you of our discussion.
You will note that I never argued that Z was guilty of (or that he had been charged with) stalking as defined under FL law.
The dictionary definition of stalking perfectly describes Z’s behavior that night and that is the reason that I used that word. Don’t be a dolt.
AYE
yes but they surely have to get a close up to the one they have a suspicion on in order to call the police with a sustained smart description of who, and what and why does he suspect the person to meet the possible profile of a robber checking to see if he has a chance to break in a house, by the way
TRAYVON was doing JUST WHAT WOULD A SUSPECT WOULD DO, and that’s why he call the police which ask him questions
he had to be in a position to answer, by walking closer
he never stalk him, but his job required to have a good reason to call the police to come, if not what was he good
as a community watch captain for, and he had his gun in his belt, he only took it out to shoot for saving his life which he would have lost soon as we have seen the bruises and the blood coming out pretty bad
BYE
MATA,
I must close in here to say what his father said, that ,GEORGE ZIMMERMAN
couldn’t sleep his nights, he couldn’t stop crying, he was crying all nights,
there you have the reaction, IT CAME BACK TO MIND, WHILE READING YOUR COMMENT,
BYE
Bees, first of all that is second hand information. But that said, I have no doubt GZ was having a problem sleeping. Why you attribute that to remorse is beyond me. That was after this case hit the public’s eye (ergo the only reason Robert Zimmerman was talking about that anyway) Seems to me he was justifiably in a panic about death threats and concerns for his own safety. Nothing to do with remorse.
His tapes we’ve seen in the aftermath of the killing, and prior to the national scrutiny, do not show a stressed or remorseful Zimmerman.
@MataHarley:
So now I’m “whining?” You just can’t seem to stop with the insults, can you, Mata?
And a “witness” determined that GZ was apparently “calm” and lacking “agitation” after shooting Martin? And that was based on what; a degree in psychology? It was an opinion, not a determination from someone who is trained to understand, and diagnos, human behavior.
Ever hear of shock, Mata? Perhaps you should review the films taken shortly after JFK was assassinated. Look at Jackie Kennedy. She is not racked with weeping. She is in shock over what just happened to her husband. But if we base her actions on your theory, she was uncaring.
Now, to my “hypotheticals.” what else have you offered? When you say you would not have done the same thing GZ did that night; it is hypothetical. When you say you would plea to a lesser charge, say manslaughter, and take the punishment; it is hypothetical. We can claim that we would act in a certain way, but until we are actually in that situation, it is only hypothetical.
Ask any psychologist or psychiatrist and they will tell you that the strongest trait in humans is survival at all costs. People are willing to kill, and even eat human flesh, in order to survive. And when you have having your head based into a concrete sidewalk, the instinct for survival kicks in. It would for you, and I assume that it did for GZ that night, as well. Unless the witness, or you, have a degree in behavioral sciences, or possess a degree in psychology or psychiatry, both of you are unqualified to speak to George Zimmerman’s behavior that night.
Now, let’s see if you can respond without lobbing more insults.
Wait… did I just see a lecture about “hypotheticals” – which you yourself instigated by pushing your very uninteresting and irrelevant questions – followed by an assertion about the survival instinct, which is another hypothetical discussion about how someone would or would not behave?
As I said, all of this is simply irrelevant to the legalities of the case. I indulged your “hypotheticals” once, but I’m afraid I’m not that amused by your ensuing hula gyrations to humor you again.
As to “shock”… my my. In the days that followed with interviews, doctors appointments – no one noting an agitated or stressed, non cogent or dazed Zimmerman – it appears that Mr. Zimmermans “shock” period was quite elongated and missed by his physician. Or else he was cool as a cucumber about killing someone.
MATA
I did not say for remorse, no one said it. I said his reaction from the none reaction you mentioned, as a person without feeling. he cryed because he was compelled to shoot to kill because he was so constrained that there was no other place the gun could be aimed to, inches just enough to hit the only target,
and against his wish also, it prove it because he called for help to prevent it from happenning,
and no one in that community came, except JOHN WHO SAID SHUT UP, I WILL CALL THE POLICE,
SHIT, HE WAS IN EXTREMIST THAT’S WHY HE CALL 14 TIMES, TO BE TOLD SHUT UP, HE REALIZE HE WAS ALONE ON HIS OWN THEN TO DECIDE FAST, BECAUSE HIS INJURIES WHERE
SENDING HIM A MESSAGE,
HE KNEW THEN THE ONLY LAST RESORT WAS TO SHOOT,
HE TOLD THE POLICE; I CALLED FOR HELP AND NO ONE CAME, AND i SHOOT TO SAVE MY LIFE,
WAS HE SUPPOSE TO DIE ?
@retire05:
And that [is] based on what; a degree in psychology? It [is] an opinion, not a determination from someone who is trained to understand, and diagnos, human behavior.
You really make this too easy.
Heh!
Mata, Mata, Mata, how you do love to insult others. Perhaps some tramatic experience in your childhood that makes you think that if you continue to insult, you are then superior to the target of your insults? Whatever causes that in you, you REALLY should work on it.
Now, I assume being a former Navy wife you are familiar with PTSD, as in Post………..Tramatic……..and Stress.
And what is one of the most common symptoms of PTSD? Psychological numbing. A patient, as in a soldier who has returned from combat duty, often shuts down emotionally/psychologically. They have trouble procesings the trauma they experience during combat, and consequently, one of the most common complaints from spouses is that the soldier is emotionally numb. They don’t express happiness, sorrow, anger, love, etc, or any of the normal emotions humans go thru on a daily basis.
Now, PTSD can also be initiated by any other forms of trauma; the death of a loved one, the loss of a job, or, as in GZ’s case, a violent incident. Psychological numbing is often exacerbated by physical injuries, such as head wounds or a concussion, which may be missed by a simple physical examination. Often concussions are missed if a CT scan is not performed, and since I don’t know what GZ’s doctor’s report stated (although I am sure you have it at your little finger tips) or if a CT scan was even ordered.
One doesn’t need a degree in psychology or psychiatry to be able to read about PTSD. It is on the internet for anyone who wants to learn about it. And my educational acheivements are, frankly, none of your business and I would not pressume to brag about them here.
We all deal with trauma differently. Some people need to talk about the tramatic event to work it out. Some shut down. Some suffer phyical symptoms.
… still burying yourself, I see tired… And still whining, too.
RETIRE05
HI,
YES, I know, I am one of that group, shutting down everything and every one,
Hey Curt… You may wanna check the hypocrisy meter.
I do believe I heard it explode when #101 was posted.
@MataHarley:
The witness said that Zimmerman “blurted” out in a “matter-of-fact” way.
Listening to his interview with FDLE, the police had just come up and arrested Zimmerman. Zimmerman asked that the witness call his wife. Presumably, Zimmerman gave him his phone number, and the man told Shellie Zimmerman, “your husband has been involved in a shooting and he has been handcuffed and he is going to be held for questioning” (likely a paraphrase, but in substance)
He then said Zimmerman said “just tell her I shot someone” (this was spoken in a rapid voice by the witness)
The witness said that he then told SZ “that he [GZ] had shot someone”
He later said he had “blurted” it out.
So he was described as being slightly out of breath, like he had got his butt whipped, blurted, in a just get to the point manner. The term “matter of fact” was supplied by the questioner BDLR.
jimrtex, how about we shine a bit more light on that quoted FDLE interview dialogue as reported in the the Miami Herald May 17th.
I’ve always noted that for a guy who thinks he was an inch away from death, he was reported by witnesses to be standing over the body very quickly after the shot. Guess all that head banging didn’t make him dizzy.
Frankly, if the State prosecutor, BDLR, substituted “matter of fact”, he was doing GZ a favor compared to this witness’s opinion.
INRE the paramedics from Sanford FD, the last two pages of the May 15th document dump is their report, and are where the medications that Zimmerman told them he used were documented – Librax and Tamazepam.
@MataHarley:
MH reported:
The witness complied, called Mrs. Zimmerman and said: “Your husband’s been involved in a shooting. And he’s going to be held for questioning. He’s been handcuffed.
Actual interview was:
“Your husband’s been involved in a shooting, and he’s going to be held for questioning. He’s been handcuffed and he’s going to be held for questioning.”
The witness was correcting his recollection.
MH reported:
Zimmerman apparently chimed in.
“Just tell her I shot somebody,” the witness said Zimmerman told him.
Witness said “and it’s kind of like a little like its almost I’m kind of long winded, but, ‘ just tell her I shot somebody'” The “just tell her I shot somebody” was spoken quite rapidly by the witness.
MH reported:
“Ok, well,” the man said to Mrs. Zimmerman, “he just shot someone.”
I think this is punctuated incorrectly.
The “ok, well” is not an utterance to to Shellie Zimmerman, it is describing how he felt.
Once upon a time a fellow employee, actually a former supervisor, called and asked if I would call
his wife and tell his wife that he had been in a airplane accident and he was at the hospital with two
leg fractures. As it happened a jetliner had hit a downdraft and been set down hard on the runway
during takeoff. The broken ankles occurred when he jumped off the wing while holding a woman.
I had never met his wife, and I ended up getting someone else to call. But the person who called
me was pretty matter of fact – it was the reaction I was concerned about.
The police officer was the only officer on scene at the time. He was in the process of handcuffing
and disarming someone who has just reported that he shot someone. The police officer was showing
deference by letting this stranger talk to the prisoner at all. The witness claims that he
he called and said:
“Your husband’s been involved in a shooting, and he’s been handcuffed and is going to be held for questioning.”
Did he say “hello”? Did he know George Zimmerman’s name?
Did Shellie Zimmerman say hello?
Did Shellie Zimmerman react when she was told out of the blue by a total stranger, “Your husband’s been involved in a shooting, and he’s been handcuffed and is going to be held for questioning.”
Had George Zimmerman been mirandized at this point?
Did the witness report Shellie Zimmerman’s response?
Did the witness say goodbye to Shellie Zimmerman?
Is your answer – It can not be determined by the witness interview. It is plausible.
Or
Is your answer – Since it was not mentioned, it could not have happened?
Zimmerman quickly told the minimum necessary to tell his wife. There was no reason
to tell the police officer anything more than he already had. It apparently set off
the hysterical teacher on the 911 call.
jimrtex, “MH” didn’t “report” squat. MH copy/pasted/linked and blockquoted the Miami Herald article with direct quotes from the witness in question.
Had Miranda been read to Zimmerman? Dunno. Certainly it should have been, and if not, Zimmerman/O’Mara have a serious beef with law enforcement, and a helluva argument. But is that question even remotely relevant to quoting the witness about GZ’s demeanor immediately after the shooting?
MATA
HOW COULD HE THE WITNESS CAN TELL HOW ZIMMERMAN FELT,
HIS ADDED SENTENCE DOES NOT WORTH A THING TO THE JUDGE,
HELL HE WAS IN A SITUATION TO HELP WHEN THE CALL CAME 14 TIMES, AND WHAT DID HE DO?
HE TOLD HIM TO SHUT UP, AND WENT UPSTAIRS TO CALL 911. HIS JUDGEMENT DOESN’T COUNT as valid, only the real words
@ilovebeeswarzone:
This is a different witness. This is the witness who first came out. When they first heard noises they ignored it. Then his wife peeked out and saw fighting. He told her to leave them alone, they were grown men. After the shot, she peeked out again and she saw one man hunched over the other, and he then ran out (around from the front) with his flashlight, phone, and probably a gun. One of his first questions was to ask if Zimmerman had used a 40 [caliber] or a 9 [mm].
He was one who took the picture of Zimmerman’s head with his cell phone, and also one of Martin’s body and one showing the flashlights. He forgot that he had them until the end of the interview. He emailed them to the investigators why they were talking to him. He apparently sent one of them to ABC a month later at the time of the bond hearing – though it is possible this was leaked.
He called Shellie Zimmerman after George Zimmerman had been placed in handcuffs. This was done while the officer was the only one on the scene. When the second officer arrived a couple of minutes later, he saw Zimmerman in custody, and then went over to Martin’s body. If you are the only officer on the site of a shooting such that you can’t even go check out whether the shooting victim is dead, are going to be letting the prisoner you just disarmed and handcuffed stand and chat with a neighbor? He does not know that there is not an accomplice. He does not know that this “wife” person is not going to show up with a shotgun. He is the only one there with his gun and flashlight, who can’t even check the victim, and has to be in control. He can’t escort Zimmerman away from the shooting.
At best, he may have been trying to gather evidence surreptitiously. “You have the right to remain silent, anything you may say may be used against you. ”
GZ: Can I call my wife?
Officer: “Sure, just make sure that I can hear everything you say. And make it quick.”
jimrtext
thank you, for the correction on my previous comment,
yes I was under the impression it was the same one as the one who told him to shut up.
bye
@MataHarley:
MH stands for Miami Herald. It was their “reporting” that you quoted. I apologize if you were confused. If I were quoting something that you had written I would have used the block quote.
The actual interview is available, so you don’t have to be spoon fed, unless you choose to so be.
A lot has been made of Zimmerman’s demeanor. Mary Cutcher or Selma Lamilla said that they saw Zimmerman with his hands on his forehead as if to indicate “oh my god what I have done”. The witness who came out said that Zimmerman asked “Is there blood on my forehead”, and that he was slightly out of breath, and looked like he had just got his butt whipped, as if he had just got up (I interpret this as meaning waking up, when you are not 100% alert).
Officer T Smith was the first officer on the scene. He had been dispatched in response to Zimmerman’s phone call. When the 2nd officer arrived, he saw Zimmerman in custody and then went over to Martin’s body. So for about two minutes T Smith was the only officer on the scene of the shooting. He had disarmed and handcuffed Zimmerman. He would not know for certain that there were not accomplices, nor know that the other person was dead. T Smith could not take Zimmerman out to his patrol car, because he also had to control the situation. If a police officer runs into a darkened area behind buildings where a shot has occurred, I’d assume that his gun is either drawn or he has the hand on the handle. In fact, there is one 911 call where the caller is reporting the arrest, and the dispatcher says “an officer is there and he has someone at gunpoint” There is not going to be to much idle chit chat. He is not necessarily nervous, but he is very, very, alert. He doesn’t want anyone else very close but he would want them in view.
Zimmerman asked the witness (a stranger) to call his wife. At least as the witness recalled, Zimmerman requested that he call his wife and “tell her what happened”. It is apparently the witness who constructs the narrative, “Your husband’s been involved in a shooting, and he’s been handcuffed and is going to be held for questioning.”
The choice of words “he’s been handcuffed and is going to be held for questioning”, strongly imply that he had been mirandized.
What we don’t know is how Shellie Zimmerman reacted. If you were told over the phone by a stranger that your husband had been “involved in a shooting” – would you assume he had been shot, or that he had shot someone, even it was also reported that he had been handcuffed and being held for questioning. What might you say?
A 911 caller who was at least 30 feet away and upstairs reported that the “man said he shot the person” This may have been when the first police officer arrived, or it may have been when the witness (who was there before the police officer) was calling Shellie Zimmerman after he had been arrested. Presumably the arrest and handcuffing and request to call his wife were within seconds of one another.
The witness said that Zimmerman said used a quick, get to the point voice. and he doesn’t drawl “juuuuhst tayuhl hurrr eyyee shahuht suhmm wuhnn” he says “justtellherIshotsomeone”. This was probably in response to something the witness had relayed from Shellie Zimmerman, either verbally or visually. Zimmerman did say it loud enough to be heard 30 feet away. Zimmerman has just been mirandized.
It would be abnormal to attempt to relay a narrative through the strange standing at some distance while the police officer had you in custody, and you had to use a loud enough voice to be heard by someone in their home 30 feet away. It would be abnormal to try to express your emotions through a stranger. You would want your wife to know that you weren’t shot.
ah HA… was wondering why you were attributing the Herald’s reporting to me. Coincidential initials shorthand. LOL Thanks for the clarification. And I’m aware of the interview, however I used the MH because it included the contrast of the comments from that night, as well as from the interview.
Overall, no one witness’s view of Zimmerman’s behavior in the aftermath will be a silver bullet. However the paramedic’s report of the injuries with minor bleeding and tenderness, how cogent the PD felt he was that night, and in the interviews and days that followed, will all be pieced together as an overview of GZ’s physical and mental conditions for the jury to consider.
What does SZ’s reaction have to do with it? I see no bearing as it relates to GZ’s composure.
retire05
check in here for a while, you have to cool of
it’s urgent
MATA
THE JURY WILL CHECK THAT BLOODY HEAD PICTURE, EVEN MORE TELLING THAN ALL THE WITNESS
OR THE LAWYER TO MENTION,
and that picture will be part of some memories in their mind to resurface, and they will remember how much pain they themselves endured, ON SMALLER WOUNDS THEY EXPERIENCED, and they will understand the viciousness of the beating.
we must remember that a jury is made of HUMANS WHICH FELT PAIN BEFORE,
AND CAN RELATE TO THE PERSON DECISION TO SAVE HIS LIFE THE ONLY WAY HE COULD
BECAUSE HE DID NOT GET HELP FROM HIS CALLS 14 TIMES,
AND HE SAW HE HAD TO END THAT PAIN, HIS WHOLE BEING WAS TELLING HIM TO STOP IT,
THAT IS ONLY THAN HE ACTED,REMEMBER THE FEW INCHES HE HAD LEFT TO SHOOT.
THE PROOF HAS BEEN SHOWN BY THE FORENSIC EXPERT,
AND THAT IS HOW WE MAKE OUR ARGUMENT HERE, ON FACTS
@MataHarley:
In one of the 911 calls, the dispatcher says that the officer is there and he has someone at gunpoint. The 911 caller (this is the teacher who was hysterical) lives in a building to the north of the east-west sidewalk – with her back bedroom facing south down the courtyard. The witness who first met Zimmerman said that Zimmerman was 6 to 8 feet from the T. This witness is the one who took the picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head. The first officer is dispatched to the middle home of the unit to the west on Twin Trees, and so would either have to run between the 1st and 2nd building or more likely come around the north on the east-west sidewalk. Serino’s time line has 3 seconds between T Smith’s arrival on the scene and the arrest.
Therefore, the arrest happened at the T. The east-west sidewalk is 30 feet from the backs of townhouses to the north. The witness to the north said “he said he shot the other person” This is likely her interpretation of what Zimmerman said – “Just tell her that I shot someone”. She would substitute “he” for “I” and “the other person” for “someone” since she could also see “the other person”. Despite being hysterical, she gives a pretty good play-by-play of the aftermath. She reports the first person who comes out with a flashlight, and then the second person with a flashlight, and that Zimmerman had raised his hands. She then reports that Zimmerman had said he shot the person. And then a little bit later she reports that the officer was taking Zimmerman away (about 3 minutes after the arrest).
T Smith says that Zimmerman told him he had shot the other person and that he was armed. The hysterical lady would have been looking at the arms and wouldn’t have even noticed that the officer had taken the gun and holster. The other witness, who asked Zimmerman whether he had used a 40 or 9, would have the good sense to separate himself somewhat from Zimmerman – or would have been told to do so.
The witness says that Zimmerman asked him to call Shellie Zimmerman at the time he was arrested, and tell her what had happened. Zimmerman is mirandized, so T Smith might approve of the call, since he could listen in.
The witness would have had to ask for the phone number, and perhaps what Zimmerman’s name is.
He dials.
Shellie answers the phone, “Hello, this is the Zimmerman residence.”
Witness: “Um. this is John Doe, and your husband asked me to call, and tell you that he’s been involved in as shooting, and he’s been handcuffed by the police and is going to be held for questioning.”
V1.
Shellie: Was he shot!!!
Witness: No ma’am he wasn’t shot, except for the blood over his head from the beating he tool.
Zimmerman (blurts out, rapidly): Just tell her I shot someone.
V2.
Shellie: Did he shoot some 12 YO black kid like we planned?
Witness (to Zimmerman): She wants to know if you shot some 12…
Zimmerman (blurts out, rapidly): Just tell her I shot someone.
V3.
Shellie: Oh my god! What happened! (this is loud enough for Zimmerman to hear)
Zimmerman (blurts out, rapidly): Just tell her I shot someone.
V4.
Witness (continuing): and um, and um, he um um someone …
Zimmerman (blurts out, rapidly): Just tell her I shot someone.
Shellie’s particular reaction is not important. What is import to recognize is that she was was a party to the conversation. The witness in effect was acting as GZ’s agent relaying his condition (involved in a shooting, handcuffed and being taken in for questioning) to SZ. “involved in a shooting” was a euphemism because the witness would not want to say, “your husband just shot someone” to a total stranger. Zimmerman would recognize this, and in effect give the witness permission to say it – but would not want to get into details.
Zimmerman is handcuffed. T Smith might have holstered his gun. The witness must be standing at some distance.
Zimmerman blurts out in a rapid, loud enough to be understood 30 feet away, just get to the point,: “Just tell her I shot someone.” Zimmerman is directing the witness to “tell her”, that “I [he] shot someone”. But he is also emphasizing not to go into so long winded explanation – “just”.
These later characterizations of “as if it didn’t matter” and “matter of fact” simply do no match up with “blurt out”, “rapid, just get to the point”, or loud enough to be heard 30 feet away. Do they?