The evolution of George Zimmerman continues in the media [Reader Post]

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In a post at Just One Minute, Tom Maguire suggests that the NY Times took its finger off the scales of justice.

Either the NY Times needs to tear out the front page or they have just delivered an epic fail. In either case, they have delivered a tilt to the scales of justice.

In a long attempt to detail the night of the Trayvon Martin killing they include this description of the fatal scuffle:

However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.

To my knowledge nobody anywhere has ever suggested that Zimmerman weighed 170 pounds [His friend did on March 27!]. I would say that the low bid I have seen is 220, although some people did remark that he looked smaller than they expected in the infamous ABC video taken the night he was brought in.

Trayvon Martin is consistently described as 140 lbs, although the police report had him at 160. The Sanford PD initial police report listed a weight for Martin but not Zimmerman; in retrospect, that will rank as one of the biggest blunders of their investigation.

I am serious – if the Times is correctly telling us that Zimmerman was roughly Martin’s size, that changes the whole theme of the scary large man stalking the overmatched boy. Do I need links to document how widespread that meme is? If the Times doesn’t correct this I’ll link up [See below].

He’s absolutely right about the weight issue. It has apparently been entirely misrepresented to us and if this is accurate it completely changes the outlook on the altercation. The source of the disparity seems to have been Tracy Martin.

I actually think the media just rode the horse that the father saddled up. That’s my guess, anyway.

I think this either this is the Times’ way of stealthily tiptoeing toward the truth without admitting the failure of the past. The problem is, the Times still has a long way to go. To wit:

Once again, they cried for the arrest of George Zimmerman, 28, the neighborhood watch coordinator who has claimed self-defense under a Florida law with the assertive name of Stand Your Ground.

Bill Lee, the Sanford Police Chief released this statement:

Q. Why was George Zimmerman was not arrested the night of the shooting?

A. When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self-defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was prohibited from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time.

Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer must swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the city may be held liable.

According to Florida Statute 776.032 :

Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.— 776.032

A person who uses force as permitted in s. (1) 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful. (2)

Many have been critical of the law, but Dave Kopel from the Volokh Conspiracy wrote this:

Media coverage of Florida’s self-defense laws in recent weeks has often been very inaccurate. While some persons, particularly from the gun prohibition lobbies, have claimed that the Martin/Zimmerman case shows the danger of Florida’s “Stand your ground” law, that law is legally irrelevant to case. So let’s take a look at what the Florida laws actually say.

Fla. Stat. § 776.012. Use of force in defense of person

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

So the general rule is that deadly force may be used only to “imminent death or great bodily harm,” or “the imminent commission of a forcible felony.” A person may only use deadly force if he “reasonably believes” that the aforesaid factual conditions exist. These standards are the norm throughout the United States.

(enphasis mine)

Further, about 776.032:

The Sanford police said this is why they did not arrest Zimmerman: they did not have probable cause to believe that he had broken the law. In fact, the statute does not change the law, but it apparently is effective at reminding law enforcement officers of the standard they are required to obey. Regarding arrests, the United States Constitution requires that “The right of the people to be secure in their persons . . . against unreasonable . . . seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the . . . persons . . . to be seized.” As judicially interpreted, the Fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for some arrests, but the probable cause requirement remains enforceable. The normal rule in American law is that a police officer must have “probable cause” in order to arrest someone.

The Florida law is consistent with national standards. One may respond with deadly force if one believes one at risk of imminent death or great bodily harm. The SYG law apparently overlaps statutes regarding self-defense law. The Chief was quoting the law but the self-defense sections within it are the pertinent ones.

And he concluded:

In sum: there is not a shred of support for the claim that Florida law protects, or has protected Zimmerman, if he unlawfully attacked Martin. If Zimmerman’s story is true (Martin attacked him, putting him in imminent peril of grave bodily injury, with no opportunity to retreat), then Zimmerman’s self-defense claim would be valid under the laws of Florida, New York, or any other Anglo-American jurisdiction. The particular legal changes resulting from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” and “Castle Doctrine” laws (deadly force in the home/automobile; no duty to retreat in public places; Fourth Amendment arrest standard affirmation; protection from civil suits) simply have nothing to do with whether Zimmerman’s actions were or were not lawful.

(emphases mine)

So it seems the “Stand Your Ground” law is getting a bad rap. That portion of the statute is irrelevant in this case.

The Times seems unable to drift into Bulwer-Lyttonesque imagery. It was a dark and stormy night:

A teenage boy in a gray hooded sweatshirt leaves a 7-Eleven’s neon brightness with his purchase of some candy and an iced tea, and heads back into the wet Sunday evening of Feb. 26, back to a residential complex with a forbidding gate and a comforting name.

Some of Martin’s past is noted:

He called himself “Slimm” on Twitter, and used a handle, @no_limit_nigga, that echoed a song by the rappers Kane & Abel. On Facebook, he expressed interest in everything from airplanes to “South Park,” from Bob Marley to LeBron James. On MySpace, he posted snapshots of his young life: admiring an airplane; fishing with his father; displaying a cake decorated with the words “Happy Birthday Tray.”

Omitted was Martin’s alleged assault on a bus driver five days before the shooting.

But then, reluctantly, the Times offers evidence that Zimmerman was not a racist:

But George could be a character. In middle school, a black boy named Anthony Woodson stumbled over a chair while walking into a classroom, prompting a student he did not know to joke: “Do you know how to walk, or did you trip over your lip?”

From that jarring remark, a friendship was born. Mr. Woodson said that he knew the student, George Zimmerman, meant nothing racist, mostly because of the friends sitting with him. “Two other black kids, an Asian kid and a Hispanic,” recalled Mr. Woodson, 30, now a pastry chef in Virginia. His new, bilingual friend seemed comfortable in a multicultural world.

and there’s more

Still, Mr. Zimmerman seemed to have a protective streak — a sense of right and wrong — that others admired. For example, Stephanie, a neighbor of the elder Zimmermans in Lake Mary and a family friend, recalled how George Zimmerman struck up a friendship with one of her sons, Douglas, who is autistic, swimming with him, taking him for car rides and letting him play with his dog, Princess.

“He just felt comfortable with George,” she said. “For Dougie, everything was ‘George, George, George.’ ”

Stephanie also recalled a party in early December to celebrate Mr. Zimmerman’s graduation from Seminole State College (though he still needed a few more credits to receive his associate’s degree). He shared his hope to be a judge someday with a small gathering that included two black teenagers whom, she was later told by Mrs. Zimmerman, George was mentoring.

It seemed in character. A 16-year-old boy named Austin, who for a long time has mowed the lawn at the Zimmerman home in Lake Mary, described George Zimmerman as a role model for younger boys, often providing advice while throwing a football around or shooting hoops.

“George would stick up” for a chubby boy in the neighborhood who was being bullied, recalled Austin (who, like Stephanie, asked that his last name not be used). “And if George saw bullies walking by his house, he would pull out his hose and spray them down and tell them they were wasting their time and to go and do something else.”

But then those at the Times fall back into their usual pattern:

“Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood,” Mr. Zimmerman said to start the conversation with the dispatcher. “And there’s a real suspicious guy.”

This guy seemed to be up to no good; like he was on drugs or something; in a gray hoodie. Asked to describe him further, he said, “He looks black.”

This sounds a lot like what NBC/MSNBC did to Zimmerman.

The actual words were:

Zimmerman:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about.

911 dispatcher:

OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

911 dispatcher:

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring.

The context of that exchange is very important. Zimmerman mentioned neither race nor clothing until specifically asked by the dispatcher.

The Times train then goes off the tracks:

Mr. Zimmerman told the dispatcher that the hooded figure was now running. He jumped out of his car to follow him, the beep-beep of his car, as recorded on the 911 call, announcing the instant that he moved beyond his understood mandate as neighborhood watch coordinator.

Again, from Chief Lee’s statement:

Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors. They are not members of the police department nor are they vigilantes.

Training provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations, and notifying police of those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the situation.

Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department.

Nowhere does Lee state that Zimmerman cannot follow Martin. The phrase “non-contact surveillance” implies that he can indeed follow Martin and observe. Only when Martin flees and Zimmerman takes up the chase of Martin does the dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman not chase him, to which Zimmerman replied “OK” and from the audio one can easily believe Zimmerman stopped when asked.

The Times:

Sanford police have said that once Mr. Zimmerman declared that he had shot Trayvon in the chest in self-defense, they were barred from arresting him by the state’s now-famous Stand Your Ground law, the broadest protection of self-defense in the country. It immediately requires law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense, and sets the case on a slow track.

Angela B. Corey, the state attorney for the Jacksonville area who has been appointed special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, said that the controversial 2005 law has changed the rules for prosecutors. Making arrests, filing charges and securing convictions are more difficult and time consuming. Now, she said, “There is a different standard.”

As we have seen, SYG is part of the law but the actual SYG portions are not relevant to this case. This is something a whole lot of people seem to be missing.

We’ll be revisiting it.

And in another Times story, we find a little nugget. A “female voice” says

“There’s a black guy standing up over him.”

And guess what?

George Zimmerman: Enhanced Video Shows Injury

And this letter from the Zimmerman family to the NAACP should put an end to the “George Zimmerman is a racist” meme.

“Do you know the individual that stepped up when no one else in the black community would?” the family member wrote. “Do you know who spent tireless hours putting flyers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black community? Do you know who waited for the church‐goers to get out of church so that he could hand them fliers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8th, 2011 at Sanford City Hall??”

“That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN. Ironic isn’t it?”

“The main point for this letter is to explain to you that the black community has labeled George a racist without any investigation at all,” the letter continued. “Regardless of the fact that George personally spoke to many of your constituents, not one has stepped forward and said, ‘Hey I know that face. That is the Hispanic guy that was standing up for Sherman Ware. That was the only non‐black face in the meetings for justice in this case.’”

“You know as well as I do that there are many NAACP followers that recognize George from the Ware case as well as many other good things that he’s done for the black community.

We have heard so many complaining of the way Trayvon Martin is being treated on the blogs, but George Zimmerman is getting slammed and few are asking for the truth about him.

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And the right-wing media—like here. What a waste.

Churchill’s adage: “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on” is now in full play. The truth now has pants and the walk-back has begun. I fully expect a large number of counter-factuals to come out in the next few days.

For those who have hung their hat on the argument that the Sanford PD Lead Investigator, Chris Serino, initially wanted to charge G.Z. because he didn’t believe his story, we now have this:

“Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.”

“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event….Everything I have is adding up to what he says.”

Btw, very good article by Shelby Steele in today’s WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303302504577323691134926300.html

@Liberal1 (objectivity):

Liberal1 (objectivity) says at # 1

And the right-wing media—like here. What a waste.

Isn’t it interesting how the left so often responds to exposure of obviously liberal media bias with reciprocal accusation. Hmmm …

@Mike O’Malley:

Isn’t it interesting how the left so often responds to exposure of obviously liberal media bias with reciprocal accusation. Hmmm …

“But you do it too!”

The standard pre-adolescent line of argumentation.

@The Strategic MC:

The standard pre-adolescent line of argumentation.

And they are a marker, a signature of Scapegoating Mechanism in play. Such reflexive instinctual reciprocal accusations are most often made in bad faith, have a tribal clan like retaliatory aspect and if left unimpeded by Rule Of Law can get people killed.

This is the predictable Liberal defense or denial of blame, “Yes, we may be dumb ass hypocrites, but George Bush was much worser”.

SKOOKUM
THEY CAN SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT, IT’S JUST WORDS FROM ENVYOUS HEADS, NOT ABLE TO OUTWIT THE CONSERVATIVES IN THE WAY OF ANALYST OF AN EVENT THE RIGHT WAY, WITHOUT RACIST INTENT, POPULAR ON THE DEMOCRAT’S BRAINS.
BYE

Given the amount of false information, twisting of the facts and outright lies from the dominant, left wing, establishment mass media, how would it be possible for Zimmerman to get a fair trial anywhere in this country should he actually be arrested?

How is this any different from a Klan lyinching?

Here’s what I think happened. This is 100% pure speculation. I’m not making any kind of a political point. I’m just trying to be sort of a neutral, armchair detective. I’m curious if people agree or disagree or have different speculations.

I think that Martin was returning from the store, talking to his girlfriend on the phone. Zimmerman saw him and thought he looked suspicious. Zimmerman started to follow him. Martin noticed he was being followed. At a certain point, Martin started running. Zimmerman started running after him. Following this, at another certain point, Martin decided to stop running and, instead, to stand his ground, as he was entitled to do, under Florida law. He turned around to face Zimmerman. Zimmerman approached. They had a verbal altercation. Martin felt threatened but was unarmed. At a certain point, there was some pushing and shoving. This turned into a fight. Martin noticed Zimmerman’s holstered gun and, being unarmed, felt that his own life was quite definitely threatened. He (Martin) was then, under the stand your ground law, permitted to use deadly force. He banged Zimmerman’s head against the pavement. Zimmerman likewise felt threatened and pulled his gun and blew Martin away.

Given the known facts of the case in the context of Florida law, Martin didn’t do anything wrong. If Zimmerman had simply stood down and not pursued Martin, nothing would have happened. The “fault,” therefore, was Zimmerman’s. The question is one of criminal culpability.

It’s obvious that the case cried out for an in depth investigation by the criminal justice system. What about the blood spatter pattern? This would certainly establish who was on the bottom and who was on the top. And so on.

I think that Zimmerman should have been arrested on suspicion of assault or/and on suspicion of culpable negligence, under Florida statutes 784.011  Assault, and 784.05  Culpable negligence. He then could have been released on bond. A more throrough investigation could have then been carried out and all relevant facts established. What’s got everyone upset (predictably so) is the idea that this was simply an open and shut case, and that Zimmerman bore absolutely no criminal culpability, based on an obviously perfunctory investigation.

I think that it does strain credulity to believe that a black man shooting a half-European/half-Peruvian teenager would have been immediately released without being charged with at least suspicion of a crime.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

@Rides A Pale Horse:

Given the amount of false information, twisting of the facts and outright lies from the dominant, left wing, establishment mass media, how would it be possible for Zimmerman to get a fair trial anywhere in this country should he actually be arrested?

This was the intention of Team Social Justice from the beginning.

By conducting a disinformation campaign that both vilified G.Z. and preemptively exonerated T.M., Crump, Sharpton and the other disreputables hoped to incite public opinion and force the authorities to go where the available evidence wouldn’t lead them. Fear of civil disobedience and citizen anger would then compel the State Attorney to charge and indict.

I now think that we are gradually returning to reason and rationality. With the discrediting of some of the more incendiary “evidence” and the announcement by the Sanford PD Lead Investigator that he now accepts Zimmerman’s version of events, I think that this thing begins to fade away.

To all you Zimmerman haters: Go down to the local starbucks and order a nice, hot cup of SHUT THE PHUCK UP, okay?

@The Strategic MC:

“But you do it too!”

The standard pre-adolescent line of argumentation.

Followed by several rounds of “Nuh-uh” and “Uh-huh”…

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I’m sorry, Larry, but you’re wrong. The evidence points more to this:

Zimmerman was driving to the store and spotted someone whom he didn’t know and never had seen before acting in a suspicious manner. Martin was moving around between the houses, not on the street, and was not on the sidewalk that was between the houses. Zimmerman called SPD to report the suspicious subject. He exited his vehicle to surveill Martin, so that Z. could report M.’s whereabouts to SPD when they arrived.

Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, and began to return to his vehicle. Martin then accosted Zimmerman, asking him (probably in a belligerent tone) “You (have|got) a problem?”, to which Zimmerman replied, “No.” Then Martin said, “You’ve got one now,” and punched Z. in the face, stunning him, and possibly knocking him to the ground either with the first punch, or with a subsequent tackle. M. then grabbed Z.’s head and began beating it into the concrete. Z began screaming for help, to no avail. When M. saw Z.’s firearm, probably because of the wind, or Z.’s horizontal position, M. said, “You’re going to die tonight.” Z. took this as an immediate threat upon his life, combined with the beating that he was concurrently receiving, and chose to use deadly force in order to end the attack.

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

You charge and indict based upon the available evidence. Charge without credible evidence, and you are liable to a law suit for False Arrest and Malicious Prosecution. Arrest on a lesser charge as a place holder while awaiting evidence to support a more serious charge and you are still liable.

Zimmerman claimed self-defense; no credible, contradictorary evidence was available in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

“What’s got everyone upset” is the misinformation campaign waged by the Martin family lawyer and sympathetic members of media. Pictures of a 13 yo Trayvon, claims of a 100 lb weight differential, misrepresented police video, altered audio tape and the skittles and iced tea meme created a willfully distorted version of events that aligned with people’s worst pre-conceptions on crime, race and the 2nd Amendment.

Somewhere, P.T. Barnum is laughing. And Lady Justice is crying.

Smokey Behr
yes, I wonder who want to take the job of COMMUNITY CRIME SEARCH, THESE DAYS,
UNARMED, PATROLLING THE NEIGHBORHOOD,
IT seem even the police don’t want the job
BYE

Hi Smokey, Thanks for your “take.”

I hadn’t heard that Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle and was, therefore, approached from behind.

Do you accept that Martin was initially running away from Zimmerman (that’s what Zimmerman reported on his 911 call)? Do you accept that Zimmerman then ran in pursuit of Martin?

How do we know that Zimmerman broke off pursuit first, and did not break off pursuit only when Martin turned to confront him (which would be consistent with my “take”)?

You make it sound as if Zimmerman’s pursuit was justified because Martin was casing the joint. But this was in broad daylight, in full view of lots of people, both indoors and out of doors.

If one is being pursued, while running away, does one not, therefore, have the reasonable presumption that one may be a target for assault? If one has no weapons besides one’s fists, then does one not have the right to stand one’s ground, the best defense sometimes being a credible offense? How do you know that the head banging began before Martin became aware of the presence of the gun?

– Larry W/HB

Ride A Pale Horse
hi, nice to have you again,
I’M LISTENING TO JOHNY CASH, DON’T TAKE YOUR GUN TO TOWN,
WOW ARE WE TUNED IN PRECISELY WITH THIS BLOG OR NOT?
BYE

Ignoramuses (or is it ignorami?) don’t really keep up on current events.
Thus we have this in the news:
Six juveniles — the youngest 11, and the oldest 17 — nearly boxed in Dallas Watts, a 78-year-old man from East Toledo…….
One pointed at Mr. Watts and said, “take him down,” the victim recounted in an interview Monday.

The boy, again, allegedly told his friends to “take him down.

Mr. Watts said one of the boys delivered a single blow to the back of his head during the incident Saturday, knocking the victim to the ground.

At one point, the victim recalled being lifted from the ground so one of the boys could “drop-kick” him in the chest.

One boy, he said, put his foot on the back of the victim’s neck, with another shouting, “Kill him.”

While Mr. Watts was down the boys kicked him, over and over, shouting, “[Get] that white [man]. This is for Trayvon … Trayvon lives, white [man]. Kill that white [man],” according to a police report.

—–>>>>>The assault occurred only a few hours after a peaceful rally, near the Thurgood Marshall Building, 420 E. Manhattan Blvd., to show support for the Martin family.<<<<<—–

At his home Monday, Mr. Watts said he has never allowed weapons inside and that when his four children were growing up, they were not allowed to play “cops and robbers, to kill the Indians.

During the Vietnam War, Mr. Watts, who served in the military from 1950 to 1961, refused to let his boys play GI Joes.

There would be no more killing, he said.

But now, Mr. Watts says he plans to buy a gun and obtain a permit to carry it.

“What happened to me … down here on the corner, that changed my perspective on humanity,” Mr. Watts said.
http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2012/04/03/Man-78-recounts-assault-by-6-youths-in-E-Toledo.html

6 black kids starting out in life with police records.
1 white man who went over 75 years without a gun at home will now have one on him all the time.
That’s what the media has wroght with its lies and disinformation.

P.S. To “Strategic:” You say:

>>Charge without credible evidence, and you are liable to a law suit for False Arrest and Malicious Prosecution.<<

There was certainly sufficient credible evidence to avoid a False Arrest/Malicious Prosecution charge. Those types of charges don't apply to situations where you have a firearm killing of an unarmed teenager. There was certainly sufficient evidence of culpable negligence to avoid a lawsuit for False Arrest:

784.05 Culpable negligence.

(1) Whoever, through culpable negligence, exposes another person to personal injury commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(2) Whoever, through culpable negligence, inflicts actual personal injury on another commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Hot pursuit with a deadly weapon of a person running away, after being warned by law enforcement against such pursuit, would support an arrest and charge — at least to the extent to offer immunity against a False Arrest charge.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

I was listening to Rush Limbaugh. NBC apologized. ABC apologized. Now CNN has to apologize. I wonder if the Zimmermans have a slander case in the making. Rush said the race baiting side of it is falling apart.

@oil guy from Alberta:

Not that it’s going to make any difference to those who have already been indoctrinated by the likes of Sharpton, Jackson, et al.

They ALWAYS wait to be told what victims they are and what they should be “feeling” and the baiters are more than willing to fill that need.

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

There was certainly sufficient credible evidence to avoid a False Arrest/Malicious Prosecution charge. Those types of charges don’t apply to situations where you have a firearm killing of an unarmed teenager.

Zimmerman claimed that he was subject to this:

Fla. Stat. § 776.012. Use of force in defense of person

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

“Firearm Killing Of An Unarmed Teenager.” Where’s that codified in the Florida statutes? That’s emotion talking, not a dispassionate interpretation of the law. As much as some would like to change this, age and weapon have no bearing on this whatsoever. If the beating that Martin (6’1″, 160 lb) was administering to Zimmerman led Zimmerman to credibly fear imminent death or great bodily harm, he was, under the law, justified in using deadly force to protect himself.

The evidence available to the Sanford PD on the night of the shooting (physical evidence and witness statements) appeared to support Zimmerman’s claimed right of self-defense. Hence, no charges in the immediate aftermath of the incident.

@oil guy from Alberta:

I wonder if the Zimmermans have a slander case in the making.

You betcha they do, hence the retractions and apologies.

Hi Strategic: According to the logic you present, I could literally get away with murder, simply by inciting an altercation with an unarmed person and then drawing my firearm after he’d struck the first blow. It’s crazy.

If you look again at the definition of culpable negligence (#18), it certainly applies in this case.

For the purposes of arrest and filing charges, Mr. Zimmerman was (allegedly) culpably negligent in engaging in hot pursuit of person who had not committed a crime, after willfully disregarding the admonishment of law enforcement not to engage in such pursuit, while carrying a deadly weapon. It was entirely foreseeable that such pursuit could end in bodily harm to the individual so pursued, which would not occur in the absence of the pursuit, against which law enforcement had admonished.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

OK all you cracker haters and race baiters, shove it squarely where the sun don’t shine. It’s really a shame and a sham to put an innocent person through this. If I were GZ I’m getting a lawyer and suing the hell out every one of these idiots!!

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

I

hadn’t heard that Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle and was, therefore, approached from behind.

This was in Zimmerman’s initial statement to the police. Approached from behind, verbally confronted and physically assaulted.

Do you accept that Martin was initially running away from Zimmerman (that’s what Zimmerman reported on his 911 call)? Do you accept that Zimmerman then ran in pursuit of Martin?

Yes/Yes

How do we know that Zimmerman broke off pursuit first, and did not break off pursuit only when Martin turned to confront him (which would be consistent with my “take”)?

Audio of the 911 call indicates increased wind noise as Zimmerman goes after Martin. Upon being advised (not told, directed, or ordered) by the 911 dispatch that he didn’t need to follow, he verbally complies and the wind noise is noticeably reduced:

[2:23] Dispatch: Are you following him?
[2:25] Zimmerman: Yea (breathing labored)
[2:26] Dispatch: Ok, we don’t need you to do that, ok?
[2:29] Zimmerman: Ok (not labored)
Noise wind reduces and signifies end of chase after 8-9 seconds total.

But this was in broad daylight, in full view of lots of people, both indoors and out of doors.

Approx 7:30 at night in late Feb; it was dark. No witnesses have come forward who claim to have seen either Martin or Zimmerman prior to the confrontation.

If one is being pursued, while running away, does one not, therefore, have the reasonable presumption that one may be a target for assault?

Perhaps a reasonable assumption. OTOH, Martin may have been trying to avoid detection as he may have been “casing the joint.”

If one has no weapons besides one’s fists, then does one not have the right to stand one’s ground, the best defense sometimes being a credible offense?

Yes, one (Martin in this scenario) has the right to defend themselves, if provoked. Florida law guaranteeing self-defense rights expressly excludes anyone who “Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself.” That would be Zimmerman in this scenario. You do, however, reach the point where Fla. Stats. 776.041. applies. The original provoker (Zimmerman in this scenario) can regain self-defense rights if:

(2)(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

How do you know that the head banging began before Martin became aware of the presence of the gun?

We only have Zimmerman’s statement and the police interpretation of the evidence.

If you see that your opponent in a fist fight has a gun and you can’t/won’t disengage, do you try to take control of the gun or, do you begin to beat your opponent’s head into the pavement, leaving his hands free to employ the gun?

Hi Common Sense: Here’s the fatal flaw in your suggestion that Zimmerman sue. In tort cases, there is the apportionment of responsibility. What percent of the responsibility does Zimmerman have for what happened to Zimmerman? What’s the monetary value of the damages to Zimmerman? Does Zimmerman’s share, after deduction of the percentage attributable to his own responsibility, leave enough even to cover his share of everyone’s legal expenses?

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

Hi Strategic (#25): Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that. I clearly need to read more details about the case. I’d particularly like to know the results of the audio analysis (who exactly is the one who’s screaming?) and blood spatter analysis and Martin autopsy (physical evidence of a fight?). And did the slug exit the body and, if so, was it in the ground or far away? I guess all that will only come out if Zimmerman is indicted and tried.

– LW/HB

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

Hi Strategic: According to the logic you present, I could literally get away with murder, simply by inciting an altercation with an unarmed person and then drawing my firearm after he’d struck the first blow. It’s crazy.

No evidence of incitement in this case. Additionally, a substantiated claim of self-defense requires a credible claim of fear of either death or grave injury. Zimmerman, as evidenced by his injuries, was able to convince the police that he legally invoked his right to self defense. FL Statutes 776.012 and 776.041 are germane and quite clear. I cover the applicable scenarios in an earlier post.

For the purposes of arrest and filing charges, Mr. Zimmerman was (allegedly) culpably negligent in engaging in hot pursuit of person who had not committed a crime, after willfully disregarding the admonishment of law enforcement not to engage in such pursuit, while carrying a deadly weapon.

No “hot pursuit” and no willful disregarding of an admonishment. Upon being advised (not told, directed, admonished or ordered) “Ok, we don’t need you to do that, ok?” by the 911 dispatch that he didn’t need to follow, he verbally complies. The 911 audio provides supporting evidence.

Hi Strategic. Thanks again. Along with a zillion others, I’m interested in the actual evidence. I looked, but couldn’t find a reference to the “wind speed” evidence that Zimmerman complied with the admonishment from law enforcement not to proceed (by the way, I did listen to the actual voice recording of the 911 dispatcher saying “we don’t need you to do that” and it certainly does come across to me as an admonishment and not as mere “advice”).

Are you alleging that Zimmerman did not pursue Martin following the 911 call? That he simply turned around and was walking back to his truck when Martin came up from behind and accosted him? Can you point me in the direction of a link to the “wind speed” evidence and/or any other evidence that Zimmerman did, indeed, disengage after the admonishment to disengage? Also, do you have any comment as to the identity of the “screamer” — Martin or Zimmerman?

P.S. You ask: “If you see that your opponent in a fist fight has a gun and you can’t/won’t disengage, do you try to take control of the gun or, do you begin to beat your opponent’s head into the pavement, leaving his hands free to employ the gun?” My answer: maybe what I do is to hold his head down with one hand (or press my hand into his face, breaking his nose in the process) while reaching for his gun with my other hand. If I reach for his gun with both hands, I allow him to disengage, with clean access to his gun. Another question: didn’t Zimmerman claim that Martin was, in fact, going for his gun?

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

I looked, but couldn’t find a reference to the “wind speed” evidence that Zimmerman complied with the admonishment from law enforcement not to proceed (by the way, I did listen to the actual voice recording of the 911 dispatcher saying “we don’t need you to do that” and it certainly does come across to me as an admonishment and not as mere “advice”).

O.K., admonishment it is, in that the tone can be interpreted as mild, yet polite, disapproval.

Are you alleging that Zimmerman did not pursue Martin following the 911 call? That he simply turned around and was walking back to his truck when Martin came up from behind and accosted him?

I allege nothing, but believe that Zimmerman ceased to follow shortly after the “admonishment.”
I also believe that he loitered in the vicinity of his furthest point of advance, and did not proceed at a rapid, uninterrupted pace in the direction of his vehicle. He sensed that Martin might be near (as per the transcript) and was trying to obtain situational awareness.
Yes, I believe that Martin came up from behind and accosted him. The testimony of Martin’s girlfriend, IMO, supports this belief.

Here’s the transcript. Listen at the indicated times for the change in wind noise.

Zimmerman 911 call transcripts

Dispath = D
Zimmerman = Z
[] = time on call
D: Sanford Police Department…
Z: Hey we’ve had some breakins in my neighborhood and there is a real suspicious guy uh its retreat view circle. Um The best address I can give you is [0:15] 111 retreat view circle.

[0:17] Z: This guy looks like he is up to no good or he’s on drugs or something.
[0:22] Z: It’s raining and he’s just walking around and looking about.
[0:26] D: Ok, is this guy is he white, black or Hispanic?
[0:29] Z: He looks black.
[0:32] D: Did you see what he is wearing?
[0:33] Z: Yeah, a dark hoodie either jeans or sweat pants and uh white kind of shoes.
[0:42] Z: He here now he was just staring.
D: So he’s just walking around the area?
Z: Looking at all the houses
[0:48] Z: Now he is just staring at me.
D: Ok, you said it is 1111 retreat view or 111
Z: the that’s the club house
D: That’s the club house, he’s near the club house right now?
During which Zimmerman repeats ’that’s the’
Z: Now he is coming towards me.
D: ok
[1:05] Z:He’s got his hand in his waste-band and he’s a black male!
D: Ok, how old would you say he is?
Z: he has a button on shirt. Late teens.
D: Late teens. Ok
Z: mm hmm
[1:17] Z: Something is wrong with him.
[1:22] Z: Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.
[1:28] D: Ok, just let me know if he does anything.
[Overlap] Z: Can you get an officer over here.
D: yea, we got them on the way. Yea, just let me know if the guy does anything.
[1:43] Z: Yep
[1:45] Z: When you come to the club house you come strait in and make a left. Actually you would go past the club house
D: ok, you say it is on the left hand side from the club house
[1:58] Z: No, you go in strait through he entrance and then you make a left uh.. yeah, you go strait in don’t turn and make a left.
[2:07] Z: Shit he’s running.
D: Which way is he running?
[2:12] Z: uh, down towards the other entrance of the other entrance of the neighborhood.
D: Ok, which entrance is that he is headed towards?
[2:19] Z: the back entrance.
[2:20] wind
[2:21] car door open close other noise, fking fking coons or coins. Hard to tell because noise and his stuttering.(Potentially dropped coins when exiting vehicle, sounds more like coons cleaned up) Not CNNs method for cleaning is improper.
[2:23] D: Are you following him?
[2:25] Z:Yea (labored)
[2:26] D: Ok, we don’t need you to do that, ok?
[2:29] Z: Ok (not labored)
Noise wind reduces signifies end of chase 8-9 seconds.
[2:34] D: Ok, sir what is your name?
[2:38] Z: George; He ran.
[2:41] D: Alright George whats your last name?
[2:43] Z: Zimmerman
[2:44] D: And whats the phone you are calling from?
[2:48] Z: 407 435 2400
[2:53] D: Alright George we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
[2:57] Z: Yea
D: All right where you going to meet with them at?
[3:00] Z: umm, if they came in through the uh gate tell them to go strait past the club house and uh strait past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mail boxes they’ll see my truck.
[3:19] ok, what address are you parked in front of?
[3:22] Z: um, I don’t know its a cut through so I don’t know the address.
[3:26] D: Ok, do you live in the area?
[3:29] Tea, yea I
[interrupts] D: Well what is your aparentment number?
[3:33] Z: It’s a home 1950 awe crap I don’t want to give it all out. I don’t know where this kid is. (worried Trayvon may be near and over hear)
D: Ok, do you want to meet with them near the mail boxes?
[3:43] Z: Yea, thats fine
[3:44] D: Alright George I’ll let them know to meet you when they are out there ok?
[3:48] Z: Ok, could you could you have them call me and I will tell them where I am at?
[3:51] D: Ok, that is no problem.
[3:53] Z: Need me give you my number or you got it?
[3:55] D: Yea, I got it 407 435 2400
[3:59] Z: Yea, you got it.
[4:00] D: Ok, No problem I’ll let them know to call you when they are in the area.
Z: thanks
D: you are welcome.

Additional interpretations of this transcript are available on this thread.

Strategic MC: I allege nothing, but believe that Zimmerman ceased to follow shortly after the “admonishment.”

Depends upon what you want to call “shortly”. As determined on the other thread, Zimmerman had one to two minutes after hanging up to retrace his 33 seconds of movements, at a fast walk of about 5′ per second/165 feet, and be back at his truck prior to the start of the fight.

He did not.

@jimrtex: The call ends at 4:11, or 7:13:45. It might have ended a bit before, there are a few seconds of dead air.

The fight did not start until four minutes (unknown seconds) after Martin’s girlfriend called in at 7:12 (unknown seconds). So what was Zimmerman doing in that 1-2 minutes after hanging up with 911? Because it sure wasn’t returning to his car “shortly after the ‘admonishment’ “.

Yes. Zimmerman claims that Martin went crazy upon spotting the gun and threatened to kill him.

George Zimmerman claims nothing that we know of, and we have no testimonial account of his story. To date, it’s George’s brother who says that. Then again, he also says first Zimmerman was attacked from behind, then from the side, then…..

Hi Strategic. Thanks again. I’ll digest that for awhile and await emergence of other evidence, if forthcoming.

– LW/HB

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

My answer: maybe what I do is to hold his head down with one hand (or press my hand into his face, breaking his nose in the process) while reaching for his gun with my other hand.

I think that you could only attempt this after your opponent has been sufficiently subdued or disoriented. Like a guy who already has suffered a broken nose or head trauma.

Another question: didn’t Zimmerman claim that Martin was, in fact, going for his gun?

Yes. Zimmerman claims (Correction: Zimmerman’s brother claims) that Martin went crazy upon spotting the gun and threatened to kill him.
The gun in question, upon firing the fatal shot, did not cycle or partially extract the discharged shell casing. This is consistent with an obstruction of the slide, either wedged between the bodies of Z. and M. at discharge, or held in place by hand or hands.

@The Strategic MC: The door opens at 2:10 and closes at 2:14. He begins to either walk fast or run and you can hear it quite clearly. Then the movement noise ceases at about 2:42. It’s all here.

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

No worries.

@drjohn:

It’s all here.

Thanks for the link. I knew that it was around here somewhere, but forgot that it was at the beginning of the thread.

The Strategic MC

ON 32, COULD BE BECAUSE OF THE MANIPULATION OF BOTH HANDS PRESSING TWISTING HARD TO TAKE HOLD OF IT BY BOTH WHICH CAUSE THE DID NOT CYCLE OR
DID NOT DISCHARGE OR PARTIALY EXTRACT THE SHELL CASING
YOU KNOW IT COULD HAVE EXPLODED TO WITH THE OTHER BULLETS STILL LOCK INSIDE, YES? NO?
AND KILL BOTH

So what was Zimmerman doing in that 1-2 minutes after hanging up with 911? Because it sure wasn’t returning to his car “shortly after the ‘admonishment’ “.

Let’s review what I said, shall we?:

“I also believe that he loitered in the vicinity of his furthest point of advance, and did not proceed at a rapid, uninterrupted pace in the direction of his vehicle. He sensed that Martin might be near (as per the transcript) and was trying to obtain situational awareness.”
Remarkably, this immediately follows the statement with which you appear to take issue.

As determined on the other thread, Zimmerman had one to two minutes after hanging up to retrace his 33 seconds of movements, at a fast walk of about 5′ per second/165 feet, and be back at his truck prior to the start of the fight.

And here’s what I had to say about that:

“The handy illustration doesn’t control for variables such as varying rates of advance/travel and changes in vector or direction (Appears to assume a constant vector and velocity). Zimmerman may have briefly loitered at his furthest position of advance and/or stopped intermittently while returning to his vehicle in order to acquire additional situational awareness (stop, look and listen). Haven’t seen where this has been factored into the supposition.”

George Zimmerman claims nothing that we know of, and we have no testimonial account of his story. To date, it’s George’s brother who says that.

Yes, I should have mentioned that this was a second hand account from a potentially biased source. You got me.

Technically, Strategic MC, I’m not interested in what you speculate Zimmerman was doing. It was a rhetorical question that should be addressed in investigations.

“The handy illustration doesn’t control for variables such as varying rates of advance/travel and changes in vector or direction (Appears to assume a constant vector and velocity)

Not sure what you find so exceedingly variable with a max radius as a reference. Obviously there are places from the car Zimmerman could track in a straight line, and others where he’d have to dodge buildings. In that case, he would be within that radius, and still… the main point… 33 seconds away from where he just walked. A place he could easily return after hanging up from 911, and have time to spare before the fight took place. He’d be at his SUV, waiting for the PD, just as he should have been.

@ilovebeeswarzone:

COULD BE BECAUSE OF THE MANIPULATION OF BOTH HANDS PRESSING TWISTING HARD TO TAKE HOLD OF IT BY BOTH WHICH CAUSE THE DID NOT CYCLE OR
DID NOT DISCHARGE OR PARTIALY EXTRACT THE SHELL CASING

Thanks. I agree.

This whole string is speculation and opinion. I trust those who were there and our legal system to make the proper determination.

78% kids 17 , 18, take alcohol 43% take drugs O REILY
IT S LOWER FOR 13, 14 KIDS, BUT THERE,
JUDGE JEANINE SAID THAT’S WHY THE GET VIOLENT AND CRIME AND RAPE

The evolution of George Zimmerman continues in the media

What about your various explanations for why Zimmerman is not only innocent, but a victim? That certainly seems to “evolve” post to post, minute to minute, comment to comment.

@The Strategic MC:

[2:21] car door open close other noise, fking fking coons or coins. Hard to tell because noise and his stuttering.(Potentially dropped coins when exiting vehicle, sounds more like coons cleaned up) Not CNNs method for cleaning is improper.

the latest translation (IE clean up audio) says the word used was “cold”
and it was a cold night for FL that night

@DiveCon: It ‘s not “cold” either. It’s “punks” and always was punks.

City of Sanford prepares for response to George Zimmerman decision.

Officials said extra police officers and fire department officials are on standby. Neighboring agencies have also been asked to assist, if needed.

It’s not known when Angela Corey, a state attorney appointed as the special prosecutor by Gov. Rick Scott, will make a ruling.

Residents said they feel the pressure of the decision looming over the community.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/City-of-Sanford-prepares-for-response-to-George-Zimmerman-decision/-/1637132/10276020/-/xeilns/-/index.html

ALSO:
People who back Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. are handing out blue and black wristbands that say “I support Chief Billy Lee” and have begun a campaign to return him to office.

Lee, 52, temporarily stepped down March 22 after a firestorm of criticism for refusing to arrest a Neighborhood Watch volunteer who fatally shot Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old on Feb. 26.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-06/news/os-trayvon-martin-lee-petition-20120406_1_wristbands-online-petition-confidence-vote

We are finally going to get past the innuendo and supposition.
We are going to find out what the appointed prosecutor has deicided.

@drjohn:

Yes, when I listened to CNN’s recording as processed by a senior CNN sound tech I didn’t hear a “c” either. I heard either a “ph” or a “p” sound at the beginning the final word in question.

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

If Zimmerman had simply stood down and not pursued Martin, nothing would have happened. The “fault,” therefore, was Zimmerman’s. The question is one of criminal culpability.

People, like you, Larry, suck donkey-dick.

Is it any wonder everyone is biting at the bit to the system to fall on it’s ass so the masses can have at the likes of lawyers such as yourself?

yes they are punks and attack the whites, lets show them as they are,
and lock them at their first attack, so to show the other there will be danger for them if they attack any whites. I cannot swallow that 78 year old man be attack so much by six cowards,
they should get to feel the kicks they gave, all of them each all the same kicks,
they don’t deserve tolerance from the whites, they deserve the same medecine they apply,
enroll them with the teacher they deserve, and the seniors will be able to be free on the street,
where they live, can you believe this man was a VIETNAM VETERAN, HE WILL GET A GUN, AND ALL THE SENIORS SHOULD FOLLOW AND LEARN TO USE THEIR GUN. UNTIL THE UNITED STATES IS FREE FROM THE COWARDS.

@Ivan: Cool it with the language Ivan