Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
Mike O’Malley
hi,
yes I was about to come directly and say on your first of the two last comment that they are lying to their teeths, because they where not even there, and then the other story came very different
wow whoever read it must be stunt
bye
@Aye:
You’ve probably chewed on the crayons. Keep them to yourself.
Do we agree that Martin had lots of time to get to Green’s house? We will presume that he had both the physical and mental capacity to travel 800 feet in 5-1/2 minutes. Please tell me that you agree or disagree.
We will presume that he had gone to the store based on the comments of his father and his father’s girlfriend that were unrehearsed on the day after the shooting. Either Chad told them that; Trayvon had told them that he was going to the store or might go to the store; or maybe the police had found the Skittles, Ice Tea, and a receipt. Perhaps other witnesses had told the police that they had seen him going to the store. Maybe the clerk at the 7-11 had seen the shooting story on the news. Maybe the police had talked to Trayvon’s girlfriend. I doubt that Zimmerman told them.
So if Trayvon was returning from the store to Green’s house, and had plenty of time to do so, then he made a choice to do something else instead. My guess was he was bored, he didn’t know anyone in Sanford, and preferred to talk on the phone to his girlfriend in Miami (who he talked to 6 hours that day) to going back to his father’s girlfriend’s house to be with a 13 YO.
That was a choice.
@Aye
Time and distance study and call logs show both men had time to have left the area of the fight.GZ’s Kel -Tec PF-9 did not fail to eject or fail to feed. It failed to cycle precluding either. If you can account for TM’s exact motions and actions such as reaching to answer his phone to the exclusion of any other possible acts,then telling us what he had for breakfast that day should be a snap. Pedantics and pedagoguery dressed as classic liberal debate is still just pedantics and pedagoguery.
now I UNDERSTAND WHY IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR WHO TO MAKE IT PUBLIC,
THE POLICE KEPT IT QUITE KNOWING what would happen at this time, they knew it would lead to other crimes and they knew it would be use by the SHARPTON AND COMPANIES TO INCITE THE BLACK, AND THEY SUCEDED TO INCITE THE YOUNG BELOW 13 UPWARD, TO COMMIT CRIMES AND PUT THE EXCUSE ON THE NAME OF TRAYVON, WHOEVER CAME OUT WITH THIS IS RESPONSIBLE,
FOR THIS ESCALATION OF CRIMES,
@Aye:
Is this the one you mean, Aye?
The one to which you continue to refer and I answered that the entire law was cited within which the self-defense portion was actually applicable as suggested by Dave Kopel and with which I agreed but you kept demanding that I take a stand one way or the other without accepting that I had actually done so?
Is that the one?
@Aye:
As noted by Tom Maguire, this wasn’t public property, it was a HOA. Martin was not an owner. FYI. Zimmerman had every right to question his being there. Prove otherwise.
@Aye:
So your insults derive from the game perhaps being somewhere around halftime instead of exatly at half-time when the time stamps are available? My God, that’s pissy.
@drjohn:
Martin was an invited guest in the neighborhood which precludes an accusation of “trespass” and nothing Tom Maguire or anyone else says will change that. Yet, O’Malley accuses Martin of trespass anyway. But of course, he’s a lying coward so the won’t come back to try an support his accusation.
Now, if you’ve got proof that Martin was guilty of trespass then do, by all means, share it.
Otherwise you’re being just as blatantly dishonest as Mr. O’Malley.
PS. Even Maguire was smart enough to not accuse Martin of trespass.
@drjohn:
O’Malley’s a liar and I chose to call him out on it. He has repeatedly attempted to use the “they said it was half-time” straw man to prove that the attorney’s (and perhaps family members) are lying. Tough to show someone is lying though when you have to lie in order to attribute the words to them from the beginning.
Now, if you want to try and pull Mr. O’Malley out of the fire he’s set for himself then, by all means, proceed to attempt it.
I would think that a more prudent move on your part would be to let a blatant, proven liar twist on his own though it might be a birds of a feather kind of thing for you.
@jimrtex:
And there you go descending in to the same sort of rank, fact free speculation that Dr. J engaged in.
You cannot prove, any more than Dr. J can, that Martin made a choice not to return to Green’s home.
Thus your, and his, attempts to infer that Martin is somehow to blame for his own death because he didn’t successfully avoid Zimmerman have failed miserably.
Thanks for playing though.
@Aye:
Neither did I but you went ahead and fabricated that assertion anyway. Martin was a stranger to Zimmerman and given the history of burglaries in the community he had every right to keep an eye on him.
@Aye:
If Trayvon Martin doesn’t do and sell drugs he doesn’t get suspended and sent to Sanford and almost certainly is alive today.
But according to you it’s Zimmerman’s fault that Martin did drugs.
@Aye:
Just so everyone else is clear – what Maguire said was:
@drjohn:
And the lies continue to spew forth.
Where is the proof, the documentation, the source material to support your libelous accusation that “Martin did drugs” or that Martin “sold drugs”?
Where is it?
Oh, that’s right. You don’t have a damned thing to support those scurrilous accusations. You’re just a guy on the Interwebz running off at the keyboard again.
One can only hope that the Martin family attorneys are making copious records of the things that you, and those like you, are saying and that one day the family and the Estate will seek their much deserved recompense from all of you.
What poetic justice it would be if you found yourself on the receiving end of what you are hoping and advising that Zimmerman to do to others.
@Aye:
Right. People carry around empty marijuana bags for no reason. How could I forget? Obviously he was suspended for the wrong reason.
Martin must have been a philanthropist.
@Aye: It remains that if Martin isn’t suspended for carrying someone else’s empty marijuana bag he almost certainly would be alive. I know, I know, that’s Zimmerman’s fault too.
@drjohn:
Sigh… Were you this dense from birth or is it an acquired condition?
O’Malley falsely accused Trayvon Martin of “engag[ing] in trespass”.
I challenged O’Malley to produce source material to support that claim.
You dashed in citing Maguire in order to support O’Malley’s fallacy.
Ergo, just as I said, you’re guilty of precisely the same dishonesty O’Malley is by attempting to pull his fat out of the fire.
@Aye:
Here, let me link the comment for you.
Show me where I said Martin was trespassing. You have a trigger finger on the insult weapon and are really quick to throw around labels like “liar.” Now prove you aren’t one.
@drjohn:
Follow the trail of red links I left for you in #425 and you’ll clearly see that you were running backup in an attempt to support O’Malley’s dishonesty.
It’s so simple even you can understand it.
@Aye:
You said
Right here.
I never said it. Now prove you’re not a liar. This isn’t about Mr. O’Malley. This is about you.
Aye
I am wondering what you think Martin was doing in between 6:50 and 7:09
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/the_story_unravels_new_questions_about_trayvon_martins_final_hour.html#ixzz1rYBZSg9l
@Aye:
Just because he chose not to return expeditiously to Green’s house does not imply that he is responsible for his death. As I observed earlier, your style of communication is more emotional. You’re trying to guess what might motivate someone to write something, rather than reading what someone actually wrote. This leads you to jump to conclusions like the NBC editor who has now been fired.
Are you going to claim that Martin did not choose to go to the 7-11?
@drjohn:
Of course it’s all about O’Malley…and about your support of him. O’Malley, however, was the genesis.
He engaged in a blatant falsehood and I called him out. You dashed forward in a vain and fruitless attempt to support his fallacy.
He told the lie and you supported it rather than keeping your distance.
If you had even a basic sense of right and wrong or any sense of decency at all you would have called him out yourself. But that’s not what you did.
You supported him and his dishonesty.
Ergo, you’re guilty of the same thing O’Malley is guilty of.
Sigh… Had you just left the sticky wicket alone, you wouldn’t have that egg smeared all over your face.
The best advice I can offer is that you drop the shovel. The hole is deep enough already.
Exit Question: When you, and O’Malley, and others engage in complete falsehoods and absolute fabrications about Martin (and his parents) and the events leading up to, and including, Feb 26th how, precisely, is your behavior any more palatable and acceptable than that of the MSM with their edited tapes etc?
I read an article last week that said since the housing crash, Twin Lakes rented out condos. Paraphrased, many owners lost their condos to foreclosures. Quite a few condos were abandoned and sat empty. Evidently, the banks began renting them out to get some restitution on their books rather than nothing.
One would assume there were appreciable amounts of new faces in the Twin Lakes Community… due to rentals. Possibly the community was not as private as we envision. It would be extremely difficult for legitimate residents to tell if unrecognizable faces were renters, or guests of owners and renters.
This situation also exists in many gated vacation rentals, but guest renters are checked out at the gates by security guards. Believe me, if you don’t have the necessary credentials, you do not get in. Much to my chagrin, I found this out the hard way. We checked in to start our vacation, went to the condo rental and decided to go out to dinner. When we returned via the guard shack, I was asked for the credential papers and realized I left it on the condo kitchen counter. We sat in the car off to the side for an hour, waiting for the owner (who resided in PA) to return the call from the guards and verify that we belonged there. We could have gotten into Fort Knox easier. The problem was, we had a parking pass displayed in the windshield (as required) BUT, that wasn’t good enough. That pass had to be accompanied by papers issued by the owner.
My thought is that it would take professional security guards to sort out who belonged and who didn’t belong in the Twin Lakes Gated Community at that point in time.
I think I read about the changed atmosphere in the condo community in the Sentinel, but didn’t bookmark it because it didn’t seem significant to me at the time. The Condo Association possibly had their own legtimate reasons for not reviewing and stepping up security because of the circumstances that had changed.
@Aye:
You put words in my mouth and then you called me a liar for words I never wrote. What I said was that it was private property and Zimmerman had a right to keep an eye on Martin. Maguire said trespassing was a “live issue.”
These are my exact words, as it appears you are unwilling to read them:
They are irrefutable, and nowhere did I say Martin was guilty of trespass as you falsely and repeatedly assert. Now you’re caught being less than honest and you can’t deal with it or admit it. You have two sets of standards, Aye- one for everyone else and another for yourself. Obamaesque.
@DrJohn:
So, I can now add your name to the Perpetually StoopidTM category, eh?
O’Malley said Martin:
I challenged him on his claim and you responded:
Instead of calling O’Malley out…or staying out of the fray entirely…you dragged Maguire’s words into it stating it “wasn’t public property” but, rather, an “HOA” and that “Martin was not an owner”.
There’s only one way to interpret your response sir: You were supporting O’Malley and his fallacy.
Now that you find yourself dangling by your keyboard cord, you continue to lie and distort and twist and squirm rather than being up front about what your intentions were.
That’s really sad. Too bad things didn’t work out better for you.
Exit Question: When you, and O’Malley, and others engage in complete falsehoods and absolute fabrications about Martin (and his parents) and the events leading up to, and including, Feb 26th how, precisely, is your behavior any more palatable and acceptable than that of the MSM with their edited tapes etc?
@Aye: I made a salient point. At no time did I say what you claimed I said and you continuously dodge that fact. The point that I made was correct. Zimmerman did absolutely have a right to watch Martin and even question him as it was private property.
One of us is twisting words for certain, and it’s not me.
And one of us is being dishonest and it’s not me. You make false statements and now you project motivations.
@DrJohn:
Dood… How embarrassing for you.
You quoted O’Malley’s fallacy, and my challenge to him, in your response.
It’s undeniable that you were attempting to support O’Malley’s accusation. There’s no other interpretation for what you wrote.
Go sit down now man…you’re making yourself look woefully foolish.
Exit Question: When you, and O’Malley, and others engage in complete falsehoods and absolute fabrications about Martin (and his parents) and the events leading up to, and including, Feb 26th how, precisely, is your behavior any more palatable and acceptable than that of the MSM with their edited tapes etc?
@Aye: You know, Aye, I bet if you stopped fabricating words for people you’d be throwing those “liar” and “dishonest” things around a lot less, but there’s always room for another Kreskin.
@Aye:
To make the point that Zimmerman had a right to watch Martin and ask him questions, which I did. You made up the rest. And you continue to falsely quote me.
@DrJohn:
Exit Question: When you, and O’Malley, and others engage in complete falsehoods and absolute fabrications about Martin (and his parents) and the events leading up to, and including, Feb 26th how, precisely, is your behavior any more palatable and acceptable than that of the MSM with their edited tapes etc?
@Aye:
Dood,
You and I are in the business of opinion and speculation. We are not reporters. We are not journalists and at least I do not put words in your mouth for the express purpose of insulting you.
@DrJohn:
Dood!
Zimmerman had nothing whatsoever to do with what O’Malley said. Nor did he have anything to do with my challenge to O’Malley.
So, if your point was to defend Zimmerman’s actions then why in the hell did you quote O’Malley’s accusation and my challenge? Oh, that’s right….you did so in order to support O’Malley.
I’ll wrap this up with a very direct question so that we can be done with it: Do you agree with O’Malley’s false claim that Martin “engaged in trespass”?
Now, that’s a simple “Yes” or “No” question.
I will interpret anything other than a clear and concise “No”, or a failure to respond at all to the question, as evidence that my original conclusion was indeed correct.
Exit Question: When you, and O’Malley, and others engage in complete falsehoods and absolute fabrications about Martin (and his parents) and the events leading up to, and including, Feb 26th how, precisely, is your behavior any more palatable and acceptable than that of the MSM with their edited tapes etc?
@Aye:
No I do not and I never said that I did. YOU said that I said I did. All I ever said was that Zimmerman had a right to keep an eye on Martin and to ask him a question.
Dood!
@DrJohn:
Well, halleluiah! Finally, a straight answer.
Since your answer was indeed “No” that leads to my next question: Why in the hell didn’t you demonstrate some level of decency and intellectual honesty by joining me in calling O’Malley out on his falsehoods?
Not only was O’Malley dishonest about the “trespass” business, but a whole string of things (and you had to have seen them all because you pulled “Engaged in trespass” directly from the full list that I quoted.)
Yet, nary a peep out of you.
Are you now so emotionally invested in this issue that you’re willing to sacrifice your integrity by remaining silent in the face of, and even participating in, such blatant dishonesty?
Earlier, you described my efforts to defend the truth as “pissy”.
So, which is it? Are you on the side of the truth or are you on the side of an agenda?
I know where I am.
@Aye:
Hallelujah! Finally a straight question!
Now it’s time to stop with the projection, Aye. If you want to try to refute my point, then do that that rather than continue this pissy line of argument. And if you have any decency in you, you’ll apologize for lying about what I said.
It’s the same answer you would have gotten had you asked the question initially instead of prevaricating.
@Aye:
I think there are better ways to approach things than simply deriding people. I would have asked for proof- but nicely. If you research it, I think you’ll find that I have been pretty measured in my responses here.
@DrJohn:
But you see, therein lies the rub. You didn’t challenge him. You didn’t say anything. Nary a peep.
You claim now that “would have asked for proof- but nicely.” Yet, you still haven’t challenged him. Even after being called out for your silence.
Thank you so much for a reason to have a good, old-fashioned, out-loud, belly laugh today. It’s been a helluva Monday already and I sure did need that. Funny stuff right there. Thanks again.
Obviously, you want to continue picking scabs about who has lied about what and when, so I’ll bring this statement to your attention:
Now, this should be quite simple to unravel. Where, precisely, did I fault Zimmerman for the drug issues that you allege Martin had?
Remember to be very specific because your failure to do so, or a failure to respond at all to the question, will indicate that the statement was indeed a falsehood.
@Aye:
Of course it was false, but it was not really any different from what you were doing. Projection. I figured you’d appreciate the turnabout.
Now, as to why I didn’t join your noble crusade promptly: I wanted to know more before I said much of anything and that Maguire post had caught my eye, Aye. Then I was late to the party since I was preparing for and then cooking for the 25 people we had here yesterday.
@Aye:
Yessir, your honor!
And you did lie about me.
@DrJohn:
Nothing there but more excuses. Just what I expected.
You read, and quoted from, O’Malley’s list of falsehoods yet you didn’t make a peep. Not nary a word. And still haven’t.
Well, there ya go. That confirms about you what we knew all along.
Nah, not at all. You plainly defended O’Malley and one of his dishonest claims while remaining completely silent on the others.
(And no, you cannot use being busy preparing, and then cooking for, yesterday’s company as an excuse since his post, and my response to him, didn’t happen until 10:33pm and 10:43pm Eastern last night. Good try.)
And thanks for playing.
@Aye:
Seldom have I run into anyone so incredibly self-righteous. I don’t give a damn what you believe. You are a liar. You are every bit that which you immediately accuse others of being.
You know, drj, it seems that if you didn’t believe in the trespassing point, you didn’t word your response in a way that correctly conveys that. i.e.:
Strikes me as you said this above..
I understand that to mean that you not only stated that “trespassing was a real consideration” – ergo Aye was correct in his reading of your views on “trespassing” as valid – but that you insinuated that Martin, not being a property owner, did not possess the same rights as Zimmerman, and thereby was subject to any at will interrogation by Zimmerman or any other “owner” in the complex.
Well dang … considering that 40 units in that complex are vacant due to economic woes, and half of them that are occupied have renters, there are very few residents there that are freely empowered to walk around that complex with the expectation of no harassment by the few left who are owner occupants.
With that attitude, I wonder why anyone would feel comfortable renting in any HOA complex.
But, you are incorrect. Renters and guests also have rightful reason to be present in that complex, and every right to expect to be greeted in a civil manner by others, also present in the commons areas. Especially when they are doing nothing wrong. Being a homeowner doesn’t bestow police powers authority, and strip others who don’t own of their rights to travel unimpeded.
And my idea of a “civil greeting” doesn’t include a terse “what are you doing here” by someone who doesn’t identify themselves … if that is what happened.
But we don’t know how they met. We don’t know when Martin became aware that Zimmerman was packing. But that sure doesn’t do anything to lessen Martin’s perception of threat, does it? And all evidence we have at our fingertips indicates that the person who likely felt he was in the most imminent danger was Martin, and not Zimmerman. It was he who was being followed, despite doing nothing wrong. If he was in hiding, according to you, he sure hid there for quite a while waiting for Zimmerman to retreat.. and that doesn’t lessen his perception of threat either.
What? The guy with all the answers and truths as to Martin’s paths is now wondering? LOL! Go no … Hang, we have people here who know definitively that Zimmerman was following him in his SUV, what path Martin took, that Martin was either selling drugs or casing residences for theft, that he was drugged, and even where Martin was supposedly hiding.
And not one snippet of evidence for any of that BS. What a joke.
So, you wonder, do you, drj? Well, let’s expand that time frame in the AT hit piece with the 7-11 video, sometime between 6 and 6:30. This way we can let your imagination run further wild with conspiracies of Martin’s crimes, shall we? After all there’s some lost minutes for a direct walk to and from the 7-11. Maybe he stopped to rape someone on the way, right? Steal a few hubcaps perhaps? Oh wait… you probably think he was stoned, so maybe he used his finger in his hoodie pocket to hold up someone for some Cheetos and additional munchies. Yes, those stoned individuals are real violent types. Sigh
Florida weather… apparently something most of you have never experienced first hand… plays into reality here. Zimmerman states it was raining. The Farmer’s Almanac has the Sanford-Orlando Airport, two miles away, as receiving less than a measurable inch that day. In other words, it registers zero.
What that really means is that there could have been rain, and apparently was. But in Florida, it can be raining on one side of the street and not the other. Also in Florida, the raindrops can be huge, and a torrential downpour – then 5-10 minutes later be completely gone.
You’ll find from a search there are many supposed accounts that Martin sought shelter from the rain at the clubhouse. Whether that’s true or not, none of us genuinely know – except perhaps the girlfriend in a prior conversation. We also don’t know from any police report whether Martin’s clothing was soaked thru.
Only Zimmerman and Martin know their paths that night. The 3rd person likely to be in possession of the most knowledge is Martin’s girlfriend.
But if you’re wondering what Martin may have been doing for a 32 minutes round trip walk, another 5-10 minutes to purchase goods at the 7-11 – and the added lost minutes – he may have spent time waiting out rain at either the clubhouse, the 7-11, or even both. Heaven knows I’ve spent many of my 18-19 years of living in Florida doing exactly the same.
Speaking of expectation of not be harassed in the ‘hood, and of “civil greetings”…. I see you, drj, still choose to ignore your own (unrecognized) condemnation of Zimmerman’s decision process. You see, your version of “truth” is that Martin sauntered right on by Zimmerman, on the phone with 911.
Hummmm This means that he (Zimmerman) – so all fired curious about this suspicious druggie who ain’t right invading his neighborhood – didn’t even bother to roll down that window and civilly ask Martin if he were a resident of the ‘hood. And all from the safety and dry setting of his SUV.
Oops… Why not, pray tell? Ever ask yourself that question? Or does it belie the meme that Zimmerman was behaving rationally as a neighborhood watch patrol, passing that moment up.
For Zimmerman to pass up that perfect moment, and then get out and follow him on foot is something that would make any person feel threatened. Were that me, and I saw someone who wasn’t a cop let me walk by, then get out to follow me on foot, you bet I wouldn’t be feeling none too secure.
And I’m most definitely not going to lead him to my house.
From the moment Zimmerman stated Martin was “running” (presumably, in your Aesop’s fable, after he passed him by), to the time he got out of the car to follow was 7 seconds. So what lead-time are you, in your omnipotence, assuming he had on Zimmerman? That’s rhetorical, BTW.. I’m actually not interested in your continued fairy tale.
Additionally, the girlfriend said Martin “refused to run”, so they may have been traveling about the same speed if timing and her accounts are correct. So this latest desperate meme of “five and a half minutes to get home” really bites the bottom of the dung heap of logic.
Since when is the onus on the teen, with NO evidence of doing anything wrong, to run away from a guy hounding him after (supposedly) passing him by with nary a polite question? Answer… it’s not.
The onus is, of course, on the armed and (theoretically) more responsible adult, tracking a youth not doing anything wrong after being told not to follow. The adult should have been defusing the situation… either by asking him when he passed by, or by not following as watch guidelines and the dispatcher said.
In fact, had Zimmerman walked directly to the site of the death in that 33 seconds, that demonstrates two things:
1: He lied to the dispatcher about agreeing not to follow
2: He either stood there for two minutes, or continued dogging Martin’s whereabouts.
So again, based on what we know and not what you all want to make up:
1: Zimmerman did not return to his car as you all say he promised to do
2: That Martin – hiding in order to pounce, as you all insist – was actually talking to his girlfriend until the altercation for at least a couple of minutes – apparently waiting for Zimmerman to retreat. Otherwise, why not spring on Zimmerman when he hit the tee in the path?
But, ya know, I see no one wants to tackle the reality that most people don’t plan on committing assault while chit chatting on the phone.
And speaking of chit chat on the phone… current accounts to date do not support evidence that the Sanford PD contacted the girlfriend in their initial investigation. If this is true, doesn’t this strike anyone as less than exemplary investigative work?
That’s only one of the reasons why the investigation – only due to public outcry – was reopened. And if there is a conservative, RKBA bone in any of your bodies, you should be glad they did. Because right now they’re lining up against the SYG law in both protests (Rubio’s offices) and on the federal level in Congress.
@c. lindy:
I came across one story that said the Zimmerman’s were renting. His 911 calls going back to 2004 were focused on what appear to be apartment complexes, switch as he apparently moved around.
The reason that George Zimmerman ended up in the Orlando area out of high school, was that his parents had purchased a retirement home in the area, and he was essentially house sitting, until his parents actually retired.
On April 1, the police were getting ready to storm Zimmerman’s house (9 squad cars, 7 from Sanford and 2 Seminole County, and a Seminole County chopper, based on a hoax phone call.
Today, the Sanford Police Department building was closed to the public after “students” surrounded the building following the announcement that the State Attorney would not be convening a grand jury.
@DrJohn:
Awww… The Good Doctor seems to have gotten his feelings hurt. Isn’t that a shame…
Toughen up buttercup.
Doc you can call me a liar while you stomp your feet and hold your breath ’til you turn blue… but the difference between you and I is very basic: I can prove what I say.
Heck, you even admitted that you were dishonest. Congratulations on that.
Your wounded feelings and frazzled ego are of no concern to me.
@MataHarley:
Trespassing was a real consideration to George Zimmerman and I held off making the assertion until more information was available. You guys really have to stop with the mindreading/projection.
Zimmerman did not know Martin was a guest and if the girlfriend’s account is to be believed, Martin could have said “What’s it to you?” followed by “I am visiting someone” instead of attacking Zimmerman.
Well, drj… as I said, if that’s what you meant, it’s not the way it came across. Could just be a communication error. But I see where Aye derives the notion that you believed trespassing was a factor. However the trespassing doesn’t apply to those with the rights to be in the complex because of ownerhip, rental status or guests. So it’s really a moot point in the entire argument.
I see. Zimmerman, rude… okay. Martin, rude… not okay.
huh? Who was the adult who should have been defusing the situation, drj? Who was dogging whom, and putting one in the position of feeling threatened?
And speaking of your comment above that says… “…instead of attacking Zimmerman”:
Well, drj, in light of your entire obsession/compilation of 9 posts in under two weeks, all of which have done nothing but “mindread” and “project”, I find that comment simply hilarious. And the perfect example is you, stating for a fact, that Martin attacked Zimmerman.
I will remind you:
1: Dead teens cannot tell their side of the story and
2: Just because that is Zimmerman’s account does not make it fact
@Aye:
I proved you to be a liar. And you are pissy.
@MataHarley:
Indeed.
A clearer coherent picture is coming into focus. It is dependent however on the veracity of George Zimmerman in no small part.
I’m not sure what you think is more “coherent” or “clearer” since there’s really nothing more than speculation coming out, Mike O’Malley. Door is rightfully slammed shut on real facts at this point.
The AT article where you seem to put so much cred strikes me as bizarre. They don’t account for Florida weather, waiting out a passing storm (and they move thru fast in Florida). No clue why everyone is attempting to make an umbrella an issue. Most in Florida, or even here in Oregon, don’t carry umbrellas. Winds tend to make short work of their lifespan, so we tend to gravitate towards hats and clothing with hoods… i.e. hoodies. I own a few myself. (gasp…)
There’s no need for a healthy kid to hitch a ride to the 7-11 with Dad or anyone else. .78 miles, or a mile and a half approx walk is nothing for an energetic, healthy teen.
Then of course, there is the supposed path of Martin everyone is so sure he took. I’ve never been sure, and drj knows that. I’ve always thought it quite possible that Martin rounded the block, using the northern leg of Retreat View Circle, cutting south on the easterly leg, then cutting back to the west at the sidewalk path. In that instance, Zimmerman would have traveled first towards the clubhouse to attempt to get a glimpse of where Martin was running, returned and went past his car to the site of the shooting.
Do we know? Hang no… But I did catch an interesting tidbit in the NYTs on April 2nd.
Now it’s still difficult to figure out what direction that actually is, but if Zimmerman were parked where we all believe (without actual facts) that it was, the only “sidewalk” to walk to the end of would be the path from Twin Trees Lane to the eastern end of the Retreat View Circle on the eastern leg that runs south. From the possible car’s location to there is 265′ approx. The 165′ he would have done in the 33 seconds. From then, it’s two minutes until the altercation… enough time to walk to the eastern end of the sidewalk, and all the way back to his car… 265′
If after hanging up from 911, he doesn’t return to his car (pesky detail again…) he travels east another 100′ to the east end of the sidewalk, then turn around to walk back the 265′ to his car prior to that moment.
Were Martin running around the block, he has to travel anywhere from 650-679 feet to circle back to the site of the shooting. Depending on his (probably varying) pace, that could take anywhere from 2.5 minutes (non stop fast fitness walk) to over 4 minutes (casual walking pace).
So the bottom line is, we still don’t know the path of Martin. We might have a bit of insight to Zimmerman’s if he did walk to eastern end of the walkway. But then, since he was on Twin Trees Lane, he would have a clear visual all the way to that sidewalk/road intersection from where his car was parked. So he’d have to see if Martin had turned into the tee path, unless Martin did round the block.
So I’ll have to disagree. I believe what is coming forward is even an more muddy picture on the movements of both that evening. And no matter what the movements were, none of them support any Zimmerman promise to return to his car when the dispatcher asked him to. Any “returning” he did was at least two and a half minutes after the 911 warning. A bit slow to honor his own word, if it was him saying “okay” on the audio after the dispatcher said “you don’t need to do that”.
But then again, I am one of the few who believes it was the dispatcher saying “ok, we don’t need you to do that… ok?” and not Zimmerman responding. My ear says it wasn’t the clarity of the Zimmerman connection on that word. But only the dispatcher (or Zimmerman, who’s taking the 5th) can confirm that. At least, if it were the dispatcher, Zimmerman didn’t outright lie about his intentions not to follow Martin.
@DrJohn: @DrJohn:
I find that there are occasions when little public good comes from engaging those who convey contempt for those with whom they disagree. One of the problems with engaging such difficult personalities seems to be that after a while one starts to mimic the bad behavior in a reciprocal escalating manner. Perhaps it is best not to directly engage them beyond a certain point.
BTW as a newbie to commenting here on Flopping Aces I want to thank you and others for treating my contribution with respect.
@drjohn:
The Boston Globe article I referred to earlier in effect defended Trayvon Martin arguing Martin trespassed on that fateful day out of necessity. However what I was actually referring to in my post in question was Trayvon Martin’s behavior back in Miami. Behavior which contributed to his three suspensions from school.
@MataHarley:
I agree. We can keep in mind that even George Zimmerman did not know where Martin was moments before the confrontation. We have to guess and we are working with incomplete information which is why we should resist rushing to judgment. So far everything we know is tentative in my view. It’s also why we should respect professional law enforcement officers to do their investigation and the process of trial by jury. I hesitate second guessing jury verdicts because it is the jury who has heard the body of the evidence while I’m limited to snippets conveyed by an unreliable MSM.
That too is my understanding though I have not heard the audio record. I worry that Zimmerman acted imprudently when he left his vehicle.
If charges can be brought against Zimmerman I expect charges will be brought against Zimmerman.
And thanks for the NYT link.