Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
@MataHarley:
Start listening at 0:58, when Zimmerman says “now he’s coming toward me”
Do you think that Martin was coming in the direction of Zimmerman?
1:29 “get an officer over here”
Do you think that Zimmerman wanted a police officer to come to the subdivision?
1:31 “yeah, we’ve got them on the way”
Do you think that the dispatcher thought Zimmerman wanted a police officer to come to the subdivision?
1:47-2:07 “when you come in the gate …”
Do you think that Zimmerman thought it would be the dispatcher coming in the gate? Or if he was using “you” to refer to the responding police officer?
Where do you think he was directing the police officer? Why do you think he was directing the police officer to that location?
@MataHarley:
I don’t believe that Martin went right past Zimmerman. I am not responsible for what anyone else thinks.
If he did, it would have been when he was talking to the dispatcher.
Why didn’t the dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman roll down the window, and politely introduce himself.
@c. lindy:
The restraining order was between Zimmerman and his ex-fiancee. It was mutual, and he was around 21.
The “cop” was apparently an undercover ABC agent (they’re LEOs too). Supposedly, the ABC agent was talking to Zimmerman’s friend/fellow employee/acquaintance and Zimmerman came up and started talking, and pushed the ABC agent. Somehow, I think that if you had shoved a uniformed police officer you would get more than deferred adjudication. He was 21.
The dispatcher, who is unlikely to be a LEO, did not order Zimmerman to desist following Trayvon. He said that “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman acknowledged the request, and stopped.
It is only in the newspaper accounts, that he was ordered not to follow Zimmerman, and then followed him. Do you think that if something is reported in a newspaper, and the “journalist” puts a period, and opens the next sentence with, “Then, ” that it actually indicates a time sequence?
@ilovebeeswarzone
bees the SPD initial report put them on the scene at 7:17. They must have been around the corner.
We know where GZ and TM were at 7:17. Backing things up from that time to the last call is where the proximity or possible proximity of the men gets fuzzy. There was a report in the NY times that Tracy Martin was told by SPD that two exchanges of words took place. One in which TM asked GZ ,while in his vehicle, why he was being followed. The second exchange being immediately before the fight began. The particulars are in MS.Corey’s possession and we can’t or won’t have them until she makes her findings public.
Brian
READ AGAIN, I added to it, at the end
thank you for that info, GEEZ, just to say, it was so close for the end to be different
by the police arrival to change the outcome, I THINK THE WITNESS WHO LAST CALL HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY WHERE ON THE WAY AND DESCRIBE THE FIGHT OF BASHING HEAD BY THE ONE ON TOP;
YES WHERE ON THE WAY? and with or without the beep beep,
that is interesting to find.
so THURSDAY IS THE DAY FOR GETTING THE LAST WORD, TOMORROW
BYE
EDIT; YOU MENTIONED OF THE NY NEWS SAYING ” WHILE HE WAS ON HIS VEHICULE”
i DON’T RECALL HE WAS ON HIS VEHICULE, WHEN THE WORDS
WAS EXCHANGE, I LEARN INSTEAD, HE WAS WALKING TOWARD HIS VEHICULE, AND TRAYVON CAME
ON HIS LEFT BACK, ASKING IF HE HAD A PROBLEM
COULD THE NEW YORK NEWS ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE ZIMMERMAN GOT OUT OF HIS CAR TO ATTACK FIRST?
BYE
@MataHarley:
Is there a difference in meaning between where his “truck was” and “truck really was”?
I am only responsible for my own words, not for “you all” whomever you may fantasize “they” are.
Zimmerman talked on the phone to the dispatcher for a minute and a half without moving from where he was at after the 33 seconds (but I’m not sure how you figure 33 seconds).
You have claimed that the dispatcher requested Zimmerman return to his truck, but have not pointed out where this is on the recording. Probably because it is not there. Why would he be expected to return to the truck when he asked the dispatcher to have the officer call him when he arrived to tell him “where he is at”?, and the dispatcher said “that’s no problem”
jimrtex:
Your first comment was in reference to a restraining order sworn out on Zimmerman by his ex fiancee’. You say, “The restraining order was between Zimmerman and his ex-fiancee. It was mutual, and he was around 21″.
Mutual means they both (agreed to swear out restraining orders against each other.) The ex fiancee’ initiated the restraining order. Z. responded with his own restraining order against her. The addition of ‘he was around 21′ seems to infer that, because of his age, he was naturally irresponsible. If so, all I have to say is, Wow!
Next, you say: “The “cop” was apparently an undercover ABC agent (they’re LEOs too). Supposedly, the ABC agent was talking to Zimmerman’s friend/fellow employee/acquaintance and Zimmerman came up and started talking, and pushed the ABC agent. Somehow, I think that if you had shoved a uniformed police officer you would get more than deferred adjudication. He was 21.”
Let’s define Deferred Ajudication. Deferred adjudication is a form of plea deal available in jurisdictions, where a defendant pleads “guilty” or “No Contest” to criminal charges in exchange for meeting certain requirements laid out by the court within an allotted period of time also ordered by the court. Upon completion of the requirements, which may include probation, treatment, community service, or some form of community supervision, the defendant may avoid a formal conviction on their record or have their case dismissed. In some cases, an order of non-disclosure can be obtained, and sometimes a record can be expunged. Perhaps Z. consulted his father, a judge, as to the most expedient manner to handle the situation? You again added that Z. was 21. Twenty-one is considered the legal age in the US when we have reached the age of adulthood. Reaching age 21, we are no longer considered children or teens and are legally held responsible for our own actions.
Additionally, you say, “The dispatcher, who is unlikely to be a LEO, did not order Zimmerman to desist following Trayvon. He said that “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman acknowledged the request, and stopped.”
What part of “we don’t need you to do that” do you not understand? No, it was not an order, but served as a reminder that Z was operating out of bounds for a Neighborhood Watch representative. And how do you know that Z “actually” acknowledged the request, and stopped? Were you there? Are there witnesses to verify that?
Next you say, “It is only in the newspaper accounts, that he was ordered not to follow Zimmerman, and then followed him.”
Z. was not “ordered” to cease following (I think you meant Martin) then followed him. The only factual information that Z was dissuaded from following Martin is in the 911 tape… “We do not need you to do that.” The only person who actually knows if Z. disregarded the 911 person’s dissuasion, is Z himself.
You end with a question, “Do you think that if something is reported in a newspaper, and the “journalist” puts a period, and opens the next sentence with, “Then, ” that it actually indicates a time sequence?”
The only time-sequence I consider legitimate is the official 911 transcript of recorded times from the Sanford Police Dept report. I agree that some (print and electronic media) reports can be taken with a grain of salt, but on the other hand, there are many reports that adhere to the (who, what, when and where practice.) It is up to the recipient of news to decide the credibility of a media report.
The time for speculation may be coming to an end:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_c1
The office of special prosecutor Angela Corey, who is investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting case, said that charges against George Zimmerman have not been filed. The office would not confirm whether the office planned to charge him, according to HLN’s Josey Crews.
Earlier, CNN reported that Corey is expected to announce a decision Wednesday regarding whether she will file charges against Zimmerman, and a senior law enforcement source familiar with the Martin death investigation said that Zimmerman would be charged.
FOX now reports tht Zimmerman will be formally charged, with the official announcement to be made by Angela Corey at 6:00 P.M. EDT.
And now this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html
Prosecutor Angela Corey’s options:
1. No charges… not enough evidence to warrant prosecution
2. Charge with second degree murder
3. Voluntary manslaughter
4. Involuntary manslaugher
@c. lindy: My guess is involuntary manslaughter and it is principally to prevent Sanford from being torched. Good luck with a jury.
@c. lindy:
The leak is 2nd degree murder and Zimmerman is already in custody.
Lets see if the rumors are correct.
@c. lindy:
Reportedly, Zimmerman came up to and started talking to his friend/acquaintance who was having some sort of interaction with the ABC agent. ABC agents are invariably in plain clothes, because if you are trying to catch a bar serving to under-21 or intoxicated customers, they will usually stop. It might not have been clear the the ABC agent was an LEO.
If a uniformed cop were trying to make an arrest and someone came up and shoved him, I doubt that deferred adjudication would have been offered.
The court ordered Zimmerman to stay away from his ex-fiancee for a year, and for his ex-fiancee to stay away from Zimmerman for a year.
21 YO are more immature than 28 YO.
Let’s see if we can agree on the time sequence.
(1) Zimmerman reported that Martin was running.
(2) The dispatcher asked which way did Martin run.
(3) The car door opened.
(4) Zimmerman reported that Martin was headed toward the other gate.
(5) The car door closed.
(6) The discussion continued as to the direction Martin was headed, along with sounds of the wind or heavy breathing, maybe shuffling of clothes.
(7) Dispatched asked Zimmerman “Are you following him”
(8) Zimmerman said yeah.
(9) Dispatcher said “we don’t need you to do that.”
(10) Zimmerman said “OK”
(11) Sounds die down over few seconds.
(12) Dispatcher asks for Zimmerman’s name.
(13) Zimmerman gives name.
(14) Dispatcher asks for Zimmermans’s phone number.
(15) Zimmerman gives phone number.
When did dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman not follow Martin? When did Zimmerman begin following Martin.
Is the number 6 larger than 9 or smaller than 6.
Did news reports get things out of sequence?
Is (12) a request for Zimmerman to return to his truck?
Is (14) a request for Zimmerman to return to his truck?
The Strategic MC
HI,
now what, he will carry that heavy load for the rest of his life,
for what he and many people white or black would have done,
very sad, because he had to save his life which will be miserable
before he could get some peace if he ever can,
the factor of leaning toward the pressure from a mad crowd was great enough to freak anyone,
in the case
Brian
second degree is what they choose,
it better get the crimes decrease in that community,
bye
If convicted of Second Degree Murder in Florida, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 16¾ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:
Up to Life in prison.
Up to Life on probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder if Zimmerman’s legal team will come back to him now?
Jury selection is going to be a bear!
Nan G.
I am so sad for that good man punishment.
and his family
@drjohn:
Dr. J: Zimmerman could be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder by a jury of his peers too. The state prosecutor has set the bar pretty high. If a jury thinks 2nd degree murder is too harsh after hearing the evidence in trial, the judge can reduce 2nd degree murder to manslaughter in his/her final judgement. I hope they don’t bring in a jury from another part of the state (Clearwater) like they did in the Casey Anthony fiasco.
AMERICA, I know you are sick and sad, but it’s more than I was expecting,
if nothing is done, AMERICA , YOU WILL DIE,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Being tried does not mean being found guilty, Bees.
George Zimmerman’s family have pointed out how he was hit in the face then had his head struck against the pavement a couple of times.
CCTV at the police station showed all that was true.
Heck of a defense that you couldn’t think clearly after all those blows to the head.
He could have done anything!
Diminished capacity.
There are a lot of things the prosecutor knows that we do not.
The truth about the gun, was it jammed, how close was it to Trayvon when it went off, were Trayvon’s hands covered with gunshot residue, etc.
Even picking a fair jury is going to be a high hurdle.
I wonder where they think they can try this case?
Nan G.
thank you for the info,
I DON’T THINK IT WILL CHANGE ANYTHING IN
THE BLACK COMMUNITY,
bye
@c. lindy:
c. lindy, can they do that unless the prosecutor brings all the optional lessor charges?
In the case I sat on in CA they had to charge all of those various degrees before the trial.
So, during deliberation, we had to pick whether it was 1st w/special circumstances OR just 1st OR 2nd OR manslaughter.
On top of that were the rape, the torture, the kidnap.
Ended up 1st w/ special circumstances in our jury’s case.
@c. lindy:
And let the judge and jury decide on the use of self-defense. Apparently it can be used as both a pre-trial defense and a trial defense. Though the judge might decide to punt as well.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Bees I don’t think the SA can prove murder 2, I think she have given herself room to plea bargain down to manslaughter. I think she threw the 72 hour statement out there to try and defuse the worst of the idiocy. She has had this case for a while and I think if she had a stronger case she would have brought it sooner. That’s just me.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Not hard to believe that Zimmerman has been severely traumatized by this and may have broken under the strain. And it’s only just begun.
@Brian:
IMO, it’s a deliberate over indictment that achieves 3 very important things:
1) Placates the mob for a few months.
2) Gets Florida past the all important summer tourist season without widespread burnin’ n’ lootin’ and the attendant massive loss of $$$.
3) Ensures that a conviction will be extremely difficult.
Brian you know better than me for sure, she cannot evade what will come
and already begun,
of course it would have taken courage to free a good man from the burden which awaiting him now.
for him and his family,
bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:
For all of the talk regarding Corey’s integrity and thoroughness, I just think that it was really hard for her to ignore the
very real possibilitycertainty of massive civil disobedience if she didn’t indict.THE Strategic MC
YES HE MUST BE AS YOU SAY, AND MAYBE HE WAS PRESCRIBED
SOME PILLS TO HELP HIM COPE, HIS THOUGHTS MUST BE RACING ON TOP OF EACH OTHERS,
HE WOULD NEED TO KNOW THAT HE HAS MANY ON HIS SIDE,
EVEN AFTER THIS HAPPENED HIS FATHER SAID HOW MUCH HE WAS CRYING,
THEY MADE HIM LOOK LIKE A HEARTLESS KILLER, AND STORIES OF HIM CARING FOR THE COMMUNITY AND STANDING UP FOR BLACK ABUSED, I think he has now a good LAWYER,
I saw him at FOX EARLIER, MAYBE YOU SAW HIM TOO, HE IS FROM A NEWS PAPER AND WAS THERE TO EVALUATE THE CASE, AND SAID, IF HE WANT ME ,I’LL GO TO BE HIS LAWYER,
I LIKE THAT KIND OF PEOPLE. NO HESITATION TO ACT WHEN THE CALL IS COMING.
BYE
@ The Strategic MC
I think you nailed it. If Gov. Scott hadn’t sent the case back to square one, I believe it would have gone to a grand jury in Seminole Co. and run it’s course. Intimidation by or fear of any recrimination by the professional racists has gelded way too many public officeholders.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Yes, I saw him on FOX. He appears to be both well-regarded and experienced with the media.
@Brian:
LOL! You are much too polite.
@Brian:
But that would have been a crap shoot at best, and a GJ dismissal with the legal requirement of sealed testimony and evidence would be a political nightmare for the State of Florida.
Answer for Nan
A defendant can bring a motion at the close of proofs arguing that the evidence submitted by a prosecutor is insufficient to support a conviction on a particular charge (2nd degree murder) and ask the judge for a directed verdict on the unsupported charge. Odds of prevailing are poor, but not impossible. But as with anything else, it depends upon the facts of the case.
BRIAN
The Strategic MC
ON FOX NOW THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT,
AND THEY SHOW ZIMMERMAN GIVING HIMSELF UP AND BEING HELP IN
WITH A COVER ON HIS HEAD INTO THE POLICE STATION.
PATHETIC FOR AN INNOCENT MAN,
BYE
@ilovebeeswarzone:
It is sad that he has to hide. I suspect that he may have altered his appearance and doesn’t want it revealed to the G.P.
Guilt or innocence as yet to be determined, although I am having a hard time with the 2nd degree murder charge.
c. lindy
you’re having fun with the DISLIKE BUTTON, I know it’s you,
The Strategic MC
ON 527
YOU SAW THE ATTENDANCE FACING HER EVERY WORDS,
YES
@The Strategic MC:
No altered appearance. This is his booking photograph taken just a few minutes after he went into the police station.
@Aye:
So much for that theory. Thanks.
Brian excerpt: “If Gov. Scott hadn’t sent the case back to square one…”
Brian, you need to realize that State Attorney Norman Wolfinger was taken off the case by Gov. Scott on March 22… that was 42 days ago. Scott replaced Wofinger with Angela Corey that same day. All painstaking investigations done by Wofinger’s team were handed over to Corey and her own personal group of prosecutors and team of investigators. The case never was sent back to square one. A reporter asked nearly the same question at Corey’s appearance today and she stated that the investigations never missed a beat. Her team rechecked all Wofinger investigations and Corey’s team picked up from there and continued to investigate, ending with her decision to charge George Zimmerman today.
Her team must be pretty confident that they have some pretty good evidence to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder. But on the other hand, Florida is notorius for raising the bar too high when it comes to charges levied on many defendants. The Casey Anthony case was a first degree case and we all know how that turned out.
@The Strategic MC
One would hope that the concern of the officeholders would be a fair and impartial resolution that upholds both parties rights and access to the courts. In reality negative outside pressure in an election year on a highly visible,divisive and highly emotional case have to have been a factor.
Brian
and beside this had happen in xx FEBRUARY, and they at the station had left ZIMMERMAN FREE ALL THE TIME , UNTIL THE ONE WENT PUBLIC WITH THE NEWS,
AND OH BOY THEY GOT BAZURK AFTER THE FACT, WAS IT A MONTH AFTER OR AROUND THAT.
THAT IS PROVING THE PUBLIC PRESSURE WON AGAINST AN MAN TRYING TO SAVE HIS LIFE
BYE
HANNITY IS FURIOUS ON HIS SHOW AT FOX, AND NOT HIDING IT EITHER
@ c. lindy
I had heard SA Corey state that she and her office had to repeat the interview process and fact gathering that Wolfinger’s office had done. She stated that SPD had fully cooperated in every instance.
What I meant was that she had to re-interview and re-process and verify everything and everybody in order to bring the case to trial. I think that Wolfinger’s office had done their job but Parks & Crump wanted to leverage their side of the case and try to shape the eventual case to their liking. There is a certain Travis Co. DA who is notorious for shopping grand juries until he finds one that fits.
Brian
and they are saying they don’t know who yell for help now,
other said that TRAYVON YELL FOR HELP, WHEN WE FOUND IT WAS ZIMMERMAN AND HIS WITNESS WHO TOLD HIM TO SHUT UP, HE WAS CALLING 911, THIS IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL FOR US.
NOW THEY DEFROCKING THE STORY, AND REPEAT, WE DON’T KNOW, IT HAS TO BE PROVE NOW,
I SAY, THEY ARE TRYING TO COVER THE CHARGE,
ZIMMERMAN WAS BELIEVED BEFORE AT THE VERY BEGINNING, AND ALL THIS IS A REFURBISH
STORY,
I found the number of time spent before it went public
those are 40 days of silence and cool, I DON’T THINK I RECALL THE NAME OF THE CREEP WHO EXPOSE IT, AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THIS AFTERMATH HAPPENING,
@c. lindy:
You are right.
I recall now that same thing kept happening in the case I sat on.
Mike O’Malley
hi, it seem that they got what they wanted in FLORIDA,
they think they are appeasing those who wanted an arrest, now they gave them an arrest,
nothing will stop, it will get worse, because they won, on the back of a good man who had no option
but to save his life in the face of extreme assault, on the stage he was protecting the people from crimes
best to you
@Brian
I agree with your statement that Corey’s team had to recheck Wolfinger’s investigtations. In cases like this one, any new prosecutor & investigative team would be foolish not to talk to witnesses again for comparative values. However, I suspect forensics and autopsy reports will end up shedding evidence that will bear out Corey’s decision to press 2nd degree murder charges.
Also of interest is that some of the nation’s best lawyers are saying the 2nd degree charge gives Corey wiggle room if Z’s lawyer contests the charge in pre trials. By the time the actual trial begins, it is possible the 2nd degree murder charge might be reduced to manslaughter charges.
And surely, the Corey team has cross-referenced investigations of the US Attorney’s office. They have had a parallel investigation in progress, via the FBI, in association with possible Civil Rights violations.
Bees, it’s been obvious that you have decided Martin was a punk thug, and Zimmerman sits on a shiny white horse. I think neither are true, and I think both individuals were flawed in handling the situation. The teen years are always filled with the arrogance of youth. At 18, we all knew everything and no adult could tell us differently. It’s not until we are humbled by life that we realize we’ll never know it all.
But I find it callous, and naively susceptible, that you express nothing but venom for a youth that you have decided is a thug and a punk, and only mourn for the man who took his life. I really need to remind you of what you seem determined to overlook.
1: That supposed “good” man, as you call him, relentlessly followed and killed an unarmed teen.
2: He was protecting no one from crimes because Martin was not doing anything illegal, and had full reason to be in that neighborhood.
Whether that killing was justified as self defense only a court of law – not you or I – can decide because there are more questions than answers. And apparently the prosecutor has seen enough collected evidence that charges were warranted. One of things that will be brought up is if, even in self defense, a gun was excessive and unnecessary force to repeal any theoretical attack by Martin.
As I pointed out on the thread about Zimmerman being charged, even those who accidentally kill a pedestrian or bicyclist in a vehicle accident can be charged with involuntary or voluntary manslaughter. I also linked to several recent cases, including last week’s arrest of a Tacoma mother who is charged with manslaughter and criminal neglect. Why? Because she and her boyfriend made the poor decision to leave his concealed carry weapon under the front seat in the car while they went into a gas station convenience market, and her three year old (who wasn’t restrained in his car seat), got a hold of it and killed himself.
Generally when there is a death involved, and some irresponsible actions done by the one who did the killing, it’s not uncommon for some charge to arise and be addressed in a court of law. Someone is dead. The circumstances, unless undeniably clear cut and witnessed from start to finish, need to be explored.
The first item to go on trial will be the Stand Your Ground law itself. They will have, in the pretrial period, what they call an “Immunity Hearing”. No jury. This will be before a judge who will then decide if the Stand Your Ground law is applicable.
If he says it is, no trial and Zimmerman will again walk free. At the same time, it will be the kiss of death for that law, and all similar laws in the nation, because Congress will do something on a federal level. Certainly the intent of the law was never to cover a situation where I started following you around when you’re not doing anything wrong, a fight starts between us, and I kill you… then I claim it was because I was in fear for my life. Such a scenario has potential for great abuse. I can instigate a fight with anyone I want, take a few hits and blow them away… and know I will be walking free.
If the SYG is not applicable, Zimmerman proceeds to a jury trial unless he wants to plea bargain. That’s a two to tango moment, meaning the prosecutor will have to want to accept that plea bargain.
I’m pretty darned sure the defense will petition to move the venue (trial) to another county in Florida. I think that’s a wise decision for Zimmerman. He will have his day in court, and should. The burden is on the prosecutor, not Zimmerman, to prove the charges. If the prosecutor’s collected evidence does not convince a jury – beyond *all reasonable doubt* – that Zimmerman did not act in justifiable self defense, he will be acquitted.
This is the way the system is supposed to work. It’s his due process. It’s also due process for Martin’s family.
@MataHarley:
All your logic and legal reasoning seems to be solid, Mata.
But remember the trial of those officers in the Rodney King beating case?
It got moved.
Things seemed calmed down.
Then the acquittal was announced.
The simmering only lasted a couple hours.
The riots (I was here at ground zero for them) were in full swing by sundown.
My husband barely got home alive.
The freeway exit he used had been clogged by rioters who downed boughs of trees and palm fronds to force white drivers to slow down.
Other drivers were waved through.
The rioters had bats and chains…..and booty from previous drivers sticking out of all of their pockets.
My husband had to drive up onto the sidewalk and keep his speed up above 35 just to make it past them all.
Our armed condo owners/renters (of all races) patrolled our property with guns and walkie-talkies (pre-common cell phone ownership).
Our property was unscathed as a direct result of our vigilance.
Let’s say you’re right and Zimmerman is acquitted.
That’s just the start of many problems.
One New Black Panther Party member apologized for her incendiary remarks made on the radio, but within 24 hours Louis Farrakhan was stirring the pot even more.
The Blaze has some of his lies and a video.
The writing is on the wall.
And whatever happens Obama cannot blame Bush for it.
MATA
I know you are saying it coming from your law knowledge, I have notice many times,
I don’t recall saying that STRAYVON was a punk thug, maybe I did,
I thought he had no excuse for attacking a community officer name specially to watch the problem neighborhood where countless crimes had been committed in the same period,
and I assume that TRAYVON was aware of it by way of his cousin, right?and TRAYVON had commited crimes soon before, that is why he was there not so innocent but angry as a stick of dynamite
only needed to be spark
I knew of the hot temper zimmerman at his girlfriend exchange quarell, I knew what good he did to show he cared for other, he was the protector profile no matter what negative we found and that’s why he got that task, the police would not have chosen a gutless person for the job either, and that good part took the lead on who he projected to be for me and I’m sure for other, it told me also that he was not a killer to be convicted like a worthless criminal, no matter what the evidence, they found that we don’t know,
but we learned quite a bit in theses almost 600 comments from many on each sides,
and the last moments, the most important one that end up with a kill, told us that he allow to be beaten almost to death before reacting, he show he was not a cold blood killer, he gave TRAYVON all the chances to stop his urge to kill him, TRAYVON HAD TOLD HIM HE WAS GOING TO KILL HIM,
what would have the parents feel if their son would have succeeded to kill and be haunted by the white people with a bounty on his head, she wanted a revenge for her son’s death, she got it,
and so happy she is. to have an arrest, she switch the guilt of her son attacking the officer responsible to check on that community plague with crimes from young blacks