19 Feb

Geithner confession: Plan? We don’t need no stinkin’ plan… and thanks for not noticing

                                       

Now that Obama has successfully shifted the GOP campaign off of the economy, jobs, debt and spending, and into a bizarre form of acceptance of federal intrusion into national health care criteria, events that should be good news for the GOP are getting buried under passionate rhetoric. I’m not sure if any one has spent time, pondering the convenient timing of this contraceptive mandate’s rise to prominence, two years after it’s creation and in a hot election year. But does the usual Alinksy bait and switch maneuver come to mind? How convenient to steer the conversation away from Obama’s past and looming future fiscal failures, and into a predictably divisive conservative arena…. to the exclusion of most everything else.

That’s not wise…

The contraceptive mandate that insurers include birth control and emergency contraceptives as part of their prescription plans was specifically laid out in the O’healthcare legislation almost two years ago, and already implemented in more than half the states over the past decade via their 10th Amendment powers. Some of these state mandates do not include any exceptions for religious or conscientious objection and – considering the passion it inspires – quizzically remained unchallenged in all that time. But the overlooked state battles are not the point on a federal level.

The point is that when the GOP argues that the contraceptive mandate should not apply to the religious, they are simultaneously admitting that the feds, indeed, have the right to mandate insurers minimum coverage nationwide… just as long as they include some religious exceptions.

Arguing that perspective differs little from the old adage, “We have established what you are, madam. We are now merely haggling over the price.”

Instead the GOP is getting bogged down in details, and allowing Obama to frame his performance as being the compromising adult in the room by “accommodating” for religious exemptions – all for a mandate the feds have no Constitutional authority to implement in the first place. He’s like the savvy flea market barker who wants $10 for a stolen, defective lamp, so he asks $20. The gullible buyer wanders it, and walks off feeling like he got a bargain – half off the asking price. It never occurs to him that the barker never had the right to sell that lamp, or that when he gets it home and plugs it in, he’ll find out it doesn’t even work.

And then, after selling the stolen goods that he had no right to sell, that same savvy flea market barker/thief goes on late night TV with adverts about what a great outlet he is for lamps (albeit stolen…). Come on.. get serious. Is this where you really want the O’healthcare/federal powers debate to go?

Forget religious exceptions and compromises from Obama. Do not be lulled into false victories for wide religious exceptions, for you will have won nothing. The feds do not possess the constitutional authority to demand *anyone*, religious or not, acquire or provide coverage including contraceptives. Nor do they have the right to tell insurers nationwide that their prescription packages contain that benefit.

The contraceptive mandate ties into the larger issue that O’healthcare, in it’s entirety, is a costly and defective overreach of stolen federal powers, and needs to be repealed and replaced. And part of that replacement is reform of the entitlement programs doomed to bankrupt this nation.

Considering that the largest issue on all voters’ minds- both parties – is the economy, jobs and out of control debt/spending, the GOP needs to seize upon the largest gift that will keep on giving throughout the campaign season… Treasury Secretary, Tim “tax cheat” Geithner has made an unapologetic confession to the House Budget Committee chair, Rep. Paul Ryan, that not only did Obama and his admin *not* have a “definitive solution” on the out of control long term debt, but the only thing they *were* definitively sure of is that they didn’t like the GOP solutions.

This is the perfect political personification of the infamous line from the the 1948 movie, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, by Alfonso Bedoya’s character Gold Hat – later resurrected in Mel Brooks’ successful comedy, Blazing Saddles:

“Badges/Plans? We ain’t got no badges/plans! We don’t need no badges/plans! I don’t have to show you any stinking badges/plans!”

And what is the reason for our out of control debt? The entitlements… the very same issue that Obama and the Democrats refuse to address at every avenue. Instead, they are piling on to the cost of the entitlements with O’healthcare and unconstitutional mandates, despite Geithner’s second confession that entitlements are the problem.

Partial and pertinent transcript below:

Congressman Paul Ryan: Let’s show Slide 8. I know you didn’t necessarily want to see this chart. The red is the status quo, that’s the baseline we’re on.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: You could have taken it to 3,000 or 4,000…

Congressman Paul Ryan: Yeah, right. We cut it off at the end of the century because the economy, according to the CBO, shuts down in 2027 on this path.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: I like this chart; I looked at this chart yesterday. You’re talking about I think more than half a century. But if you look at the gap between us—

Congressman Paul Ryan: I understand the gap.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: —between 10 and 20, it’s a pretty small gap. In that gap though—that 10 to 20 gap, which is all we’re debating today—is a gap where you’re achieving that slightly diminished path.

Congressman Paul Ryan: Here’s the point, if you’ll allow me. This is your time, so we’ll just take a long time. Here’s the point. Leaders are supposed to fix problems. We have a $99.4 trillion unfunded liability. Our government is making promises to Americans that it has no way of accounting for. And so you’re saying yeah, we’re stabilizing it but we’re not fixing it in the long run. That means we’re just going to keep lying to people. We’re going to keep all these empty promises going.

So what we’re saying is, in order to avert a debt crisis—you’re the Treasury Secretary, of all people—if we can’t make good on our bonds in the future, who is going to invest in our country? We do not want to have a debt crisis. It comes down to confidence in trajectory. Do we have confidence that we’re going to get our fiscal situation under control and prevent the debt from getting to these catastrophic levels?

If we go back to the preceding chart, Chart 13, you’re showing that you have no plan to get this debt under control. You’re saying we’ll stabilize it but then it’s going to shoot back up. So my argument is, that’s Europe. That is bringing is toward a European debt crisis because we’re showing the world, the credit market’s future seniors—people who are organizing their lives around the promises that are being made to them today—that we don’t have a plan to make good on this.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: Mr. Chairman, as I said, we’re not disagreeing in that sense. I made it absolutely clear that what our budget does is get our deficit down to a sustainable path over the budget window.

Congressman Paul Ryan: And then it takes off.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: Let’s ask ourselves why they take off again. Why do they do that?

Congressman Paul Ryan: Because we have 10,000 people retiring everyday and healthcare costs going up.

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner: That’s right. We have millions of Americans retiring everyday and that will drive substantial growth rates for healthcare costs. We’re not becoming before you to say we have a definitive solution to our long-term problem. What we do know is that we don’t like yours.

The chart in question? The future of publicly held debt under the recently submitted Obama budget.

Still, this chart – showing only an Obama possible second term making headway against the debt and spending – requires the “willing suspension of disbelief”. As James Pethokoukis points out at AEI’s Enterprise Blog.

Well, at least the president’s budget keeps the debt problem from getting any worse over the next decade, right? Not really. Despite $1.7 trillion in tax increases, debt as a share of GDP—already at a historically high level—actually ticks up a bit to 76.5 percent from 67.7 percent in 2011 and 74.2 percent in 2012.

And even to achieve this, the Obama White House has to assume rosy economic growth. As the CRFB says:

OMB’s economic assumptions are somewhat more optimistic than CBO’s, as well as the Blue Chip consensus ranges. The Administration projects real GDP growth to be 2.7 percent in 2012 and 3.0 percent in 2013, compared to 2.2 percent and 1 percent, respectively, from the CBO. Importantly, much of this difference is due to the fact that CBO assumes a temporary economic contraction in 2013 due to all the tax cuts expiring and the automatic spending sequester going off at the same time in the start of 2013.

However, OMB continues to be more optimistic than CBO beyond this contractionary period, with estimated growth rates of 2.5 percent per year by the end of the decade as opposed to 2.4 percent by CBO. On the whole, these faster growth rates likely lead to a more favorable fiscal picture than what CBO would show using its economic projections. By our estimates, if OMB were to employ CBO assumptions debt would stabilize at about 80 percent of GDP as opposed to 76 percent.

This is a political era where the GOP is constantly being accused of being “obstructionists”. Yet what can be more of an obstacle than a leadership that refuses to deal with the opposition party’s solutions on the entitlements that are obviously going to destroy the US economy? Instead, the campaign plan seems to be to keep the conservatives squabbling over limited federal mandates so that they don’t notice that the admin will implement measures designed to look good for their legacy, then let it explode under future Congresses and admins, allowing them to take the blame.

Is this anyway to run a country? Having leaders this cowardly, and this short sighted as to deliberately ignore genuine long term problems?

As obviously foolhardy as it was for Geithner to admit Obama’s lack of solutions and leadership – archived on the Congressional records – he did no apology on the faux pas. Instead he went on to the talking heads Sunday circuit to defend this “no solution” POTUS and administration to Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday, effectively denying that admission and accusing the Republicans for spinning his words.

Is this “no plan” a new event in performance for this administration? Of course not. Nor is the accusation by the GOP for a lack of leadership new. Even July of last year, Speaker Boehner was pointing out the same lack of leadership.

So what’s different now? We have a confession from the horse’s mouth. In essence, what Geithner has done was hand the GOP a winning campaign slogan

“Obama? Plan? I don’t need no stinkin’ plan! And thanks for not noticing.”

The gifted slogan should be replayed on every Republican campaign commercial for every GOP candidate, and broadcast everywhere possible – if for nothing else to drive home that reality that this admin is clueless to effective leadership – a message valuable to *all* registered voters.

Now the question is, will the GOP return to the most important issue as use this gift, or continue to shift the debate away in order to “negotiate the price” for unconstitutional federal contraceptive mandates on any individual or business – religious or not?

About MataHarley

Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
This entry was posted in Economy, Health Care. Bookmark the permalink. Sunday, February 19th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
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33 Responses to Geithner confession: Plan? We don’t need no stinkin’ plan… and thanks for not noticing

  1. Nan G says: 1

    Mata, it is the height of irony that Obama has made mandatory FREE birth control for all a campaign issue when their assumptions are so bad BECAUSE of demographic problems based on our low birth rate!
    It appears Obama wants to brown-up America by encouraging zero population growth among the white (and other native- in that they have been born here) Americans while he opens the borders to ”new Americans,” from south of our border.
    This will not bode well for building a taxpaying population base.
    Read all around that chart found on page 58 of the White House’s own pdf and you’ll see that this is the ”plan.”
    All I can say is, dumb plan.

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  2. MataHarley says: 2

    Technially, Nan G, I think it’s a bad assumption on his part. He took the opportunity to push insurance covered birth control – supported by a majority in both parties, and already vetted by a decade of state associated mandates – as part of the federal implemented plan.

    I’m quite sure he was surprised at the backlash since the same group has been silent, state by state, for that same decade. But none of that matters.

    Fact is, Obama’s admin was just issuing the regulations, as mandated by a bill that is almost two years old, and on an issues that’s already commonly accepted at the state level. But of course, at the national level, it gets more press. Actually, mostly it’s embarrassing for all of us to know this was slipped thru in 26 to 28 states, without us detecting it.

    Therefore it’s an easy bone for Obama to throw for the dogs to chase, off tangent. And all it does is carry the conversation further away from where it should be focused. So if you think that you’ll be met with glazed eyeballs on the “constitutional” issue, you’ll get few of the majority following you off into “Obama wants zero population” land.

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  3. Marine72 says: 3

    Mata:

    Not to worry, we probably need a couple of weeks of rest from the fetid economic news. Just noticed that the Saudis are cutting production and crude is now $105/barrel and climbing (Gasoline = $4+ in Southern California this afternoon). Obozo and his minions shut down the Gulf, California coast remains shutdown by its wacko environmentalists, East coast only allowed to prospect hundreds of mile out on the Shelf, and the Keystone pipeline nix are their latest and continuing commitments to subsidizing the worthless “Green Revolution”. Based on the continuing Department of Energy disaster, it is obvious that the Greenees are following the Al Whoar mode of funneling obscene profits into the pockets of those same enviro-nazis ‘Crony Capitalists’ otherwise called thieves/Democraps.

    For once, Putin (or Putrin) has it right that our FED’s Quantitative Easings are none other than the rest of the world funding our Democrap Fannie/Freddie disaster and Obozo/Demo self-hate regime. The rest of the world is not stupid (IE: Saudi Arabia). We will be punished for our deceits and thefts via our abuse of the world currency – the Dollar. So, have faith, the continuing economic disaster is roaring back to the forefront as we type: Foreclosures, Unemployment – real + 15.1%, and we do not produce anything anymore except unlimited Government encouraged dependency.

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  4. Greg says: 4

    Now that Obama has successfully shifted the GOP campaign off of the economy, jobs, debt and spending, and into a bizarre form of acceptance of federal intrusion into national health care criteria . . .

    Obama doesn’t control what the republican front runners focus on. The conservative elements that they’re attempting to play to determine that.

    The main focus of the GOP legislation has been on social issues ever since they regained control of the House. They haven’t done anything in connection with the economic initiatives, except to offer resistance.

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  5. Nan G says: 5

    House Budget Committee on Thursday, Chairman Paul Ryan produced another version of that chart posted above.
    His ended in 2075 with our debt at 900% GDP.
    When asked, Rep. Ryan said, “We cut it off at the end of the century because the economy, according to the CBO, shuts down in 2027 on this path.”

    Obama’s Social Issue of ObamaCare and free STERILIZATION, ABORTION and birth control (the media keeps leaving the 1st 2 out of their narrative) and our economy falling off a cliff are directly related.
    Some European countries have free birth control and now face futures where they hope 40 grandchildren can support the welfare of 100 grandparents.
    These numbers will never work no matter how high taxes on the rich get.
    Obama seems to want Americans living here now to follow France and Russia and Greece down that demographic black hole.
    Read beyond the graph on page 58 of the PDF I supplied above.
    Use the search feature to find ”demigr” so you can see how demography and demographics falling will destroy our country’s future.
    Look at the really scary graph having to do with the costs of treating those over 65.
    Anyone remember Logan’s Run?

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  6. anticsrocks says: 6

    @Greggie: You said:

    They haven’t done anything in connection with the economic initiatives, except to offer resistance.

    You not only know this isn’t true, but you’ve been provided with links to prove it, yet you keep regurgitating the same old lies, hoping they will come true.

    25 House-Passed Jobs Bills Stuck in the Democratic-Run Senate
    The House passed three more common-sense jobs bills last week, bringing the current number of jobs bills awaiting a vote in the Democratic-controlled Senate to 25. Each of these bills is focused on removing government barriers – excessive regulations, the threat of tax hikes, and ‘stimulus’ spending policies – that are hurting job growth, and many have bipartisan support. Speaker Boehner has called on President Obama to “urge Senate Democrats to immediately vote” on the 25 jobs bills before them. – Source

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  7. cali says: 7

    I’ve said it many times – this administration has no regard for anything lawful, constitutional, patriotic, decent, considering etc.; everything they do is done in malice.
    Some attack me for saying this, but what other conclusion is there? Is Fast and Furious, Solyndra type criminal corruption, class warfare etc. anything other than malice?
    Mooch going on vacation again one month after returning from a 17-day vac in Hawaii – what’s the intent there? In-your-face sticking it to americans or ‘whiteys’ in particular? And we wonder why these grifters have no sense of anything ‘budget related’, responsible spending?The left don’t even pass budgets anymore!
    What’smost troubling is the neutered GOP; they just twiddling around the edges, totally void of taking these issues head-on, start impeachment of Holder etc…let the chips fall where they may.

    Until the GOP grows some ba**s, they keep doing what they are doing. Bullies bully, until put into place, then they’ll back off.

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  8. MATA
    GOOD POST, It seem that the people have gave up on being alert to attack from the leader’s lack of
    response to their big problems, they are influence by the socialist communist way of taking over everything until nothing is left for the people to survive the chaos in front of them,
    what is coming will have to be defended with strength, who will get to do it, only the CONSERVATIVES are showing resolve in fighting them for what they impose to the population now and also for the future,
    they are destroying the children’s future as well with what they borrow of their wealth,
    NOVEMBER is a key exit to that and everyone must exit or fall.
    bye

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  9. NO wander he has no plan, he is an impostor, but those traitors who put him there
    are responsible for the destruction of AMERICA, they should be prosecuted
    in the same time as OBAMA not forgetting their faithful MEDIA,
    and it will be the most scandalous eye opening from AMERICANS and the WORLD OVER, a shame for those guilty of such treasonous actions, in a COUNTRY with such tolerant people as to wait for the days of judgement to have justice follow it’s course.

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  10. openid.aol.com/runnswim says: 10

    Hi Mata, No administration in history has ever presented a long term debt solution plan, even though anyone with a calculator could have projected where the debt is headed.

    When Reagan took office in 1981, we’d paid down the debt from 1.15X GDP to 0.31 X GDP (your chart). But the Baby Boomer generation existed back then; so things weren’t rosy, going out into the 21st Century. Beginning in 1981, the GOP has been transfixed with the idea of tax cuts. We’ve been over and over this particular argument, over several years, and I’m not dredging it up, yet again. I’m simply saying that Reagan didn’t have a 50 year time line and GHW B didn’t have a 50 year time line and GW B certainly didn’t have a 50 year time line (remember Cheney saying “Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter?”).

    http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Budget_+_Economy.htm

    Politics is the art of the possible. Conditions create opportunities. Right now, the Senate hasn’t passed a budget in a very long time (I just read this today, on another Flopping Aces thread). You’ve got to crawl before you walk. You need a one year budget. You need the next year’s budget. If you project ahead 10 years, that’s something that has never been seriously attempted. So Geithner and Obama are being skewered because they aren’t presenting a plan to go out 50 years.

    In today’s political climate, there’s a lot that needs to get done right away that barely gets done. What everyone is saying is that we can’t begin to seriously address the 50 year problem until after the election. Let’s say that Geithner comes up with a 50 year plan this month. Let’s say that it’s a credible plan. Any credible plan is going to have tax hikes. What are the chances that anything at all will come of it, besides giving the GOP ammunition to use against Obama in the Fall?

    This election is going to be a referendum on the relative role of spending cuts vs tax hikes. Once this issue is settled, it will be possible to at least start floating some serious, long term proposals. But this will be unprecedented fiscal planning. It’s never been done before — by any prior administration. Ryan himself (a lowly congressman in a safe seat) presented the outlines of a credible plan — from which all the important GOP politicians promptly ran away. There was (and is) a lot in the Ryan plan which makes for great negative electioneering fodder. No one wants to gift the other side with such fodder.

    – Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

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  11. MataHarley says: 11

    Larry, can’t say as I disagree INRE no Congress has presented a long term outlook on spending. Indeed, even back in the 30s with SS, and again in the 60s with Medicare, a simple calculator/abacus would have revealed that neither system is sustainable since they depend upon future beneficiaries paying for current beneficiaries.

    However all I can say is that some fiscal responsibility is now long overdue…. by both parties.

    But Geithner goes to the heart of obstructionism. They are quick to blame the GOP, who does indeed present ideas, yet offer none of their own save more temporary measures to cap the spending spill. A Treasury Sec’y, flat out saying “we got nothing… but we don’t like your ideas” is simply embarrassing politics.

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  12. openid.aol.com/runnsiwm
    hi,
    you know that OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS had everything they ask for given to them always with a warning to make good use of it, if you give money to your child with the same warning, he end up being careful and appreciate the warning as a good learning,
    but OBAMA spend but forgot the warning all the time,
    so, it’s high time for the GOP TO STOP BEING SO TOLERANT, and the buck stop here. or there,
    OBAMA is now on election mode and the other party is catching up to finally
    get their feet on election mode also’
    bye

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  13. Greg says: 13

    @anticsrocks, #6:

    You not only know this isn’t true, but you’ve been provided with links to prove it, yet you keep regurgitating the same old lies, hoping they will come true.

    I don’t count any bill that included a partisan poison pill that guaranteed it couldn’t be passed in good conscience by the Senate.

    Such bills are nothing more than the featured acts of a meaningless dog and pony show. They’re political posturing. Nothing more.

    Eliminate those from the touted count of 25, and how many are left?

    If my characterization is incorrect, which republican jobs bills didn’t fall into that category?

    People understand things like this. It’s one of the reasons that the Congressional job approval polls are in constant danger of dipping below a single digit percentage.

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  14. anticsrocks says: 14

    @Greg: You said:

    I don’t count any bill that included a partisan poison pill that guaranteed it couldn’t be passed in good conscience by the Senate.

    Fair enough.

    Name one.

    Link it.

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  15. MataHarley says: 15

    So what you are saying, Greg, is that only your party is allowed to shove poison pills/legislation on to the nation at large?

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  16. anticsrocks says: 16

    @MataHarley: Any bets as to whether I ought to hold my breath waiting for Greg to link one of those “poisonous” bills?

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  17. anticsrocks
    GREG HATE POISONOUS BILL,?
    how’s bill? is he going to survive?
    I never would have thunk that of GREG, but I notice change in him lately,
    he is not as usual, he look dangerous,
    be careful

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  18. Greg says: 18

    I suppose the so called forgotten 15 represent over half of the 25 republican “jobs bills”.

    I don’t see much point wasting our time arguing about their benign or toxic components. I’m beginning to think that opinions not only vary, but seldom change, and that the underlying disagreement may be a philosophical one.

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  19. MataHarley says: 19

    Greg: I’m beginning to think that opinions not only vary, but seldom change, and that the underlying disagreement may be a philosophical one.

    Yes, Greg, despite providing you with source materials and studies, we’ve noticed your stern resistance to truth, instead stubbornly clinging to your repeated talking points that demonize any and all things conservative. You know, how everything that is wrong started with Bush in 2001? That the housing problem is all the private financial institutions fault, and a few decades of Congress/Fannie/Freddie are innocent as the day is long? That tax increases on the evil rich will solve our fiscal woes? That it’s an all American principle to have wage equality or gaps kept to a minimum by government entities?

    … yada yada yada….

    But I did congratulate you on finally realizing that the entitlements are both structured as ponzi schemes, so perhaps there is hope for you yet. Dunno if I can live that long, tho… you tend to come to things very s-l-o-w-l-y… if at all.

    But I find it interesting that some ideas and bills “don’t count” as proposals because it contains something that you and your buds don’t like. Uh, can you say virtually the entire O’healthcare and Dodd-Frank bills? Apparently, you believe only your side is allowed the “poison pill pass” in your book.

    You repeatedly whine with your peers about tax increases on the wealthy, when the bulk of the real cash involved in the Bush cuts a decade ago are on the rest of the citizens. So the amount of cash you lobby for wouldn’t even pay EPAs bills for a year. But when the GOP offers revenue increasing… which is the goal, of course… measures with IRS or other reforms, you plug your fingers in your ears and (now) scream “POISON PILL! POISON PILL! That effort don’t count!”

    Have you got any idea how juvenile and petty that appears? And you have the chutpzah to accuse them of not negotiating, not working across the aisle, or not having a plan?

    As this post clearly shows, you are the party of “NO PLAN” – fully admitted by Geithner himself – but we’ll do our best to make the Zero look good while he’s in office. Screw the future POTUS and generations.

    And, as this post also shows, the obstructionists are your party.

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  20. MataHarley says: 20

    Well that didn’t take long for Greg to reject meeting your challenge for facts, antics…. so I hope you’re breathing again. :0)

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  21. Greg says: 21

    All that matters is that republican thinking and intentions continue to be revealed and openly displayed right up until election day.

    Anyone can run down that list of the forgotten 15 for themselves. Either a person is bright enough recognize that there’s something akin to a smarmy used car dealer’s sales pitch hidden in each brief description, or not. As a matter of fact, the packaging of the whole thing into a box collection labeled “the forgotten 15″ is yet another sales pitch.

    Each of the 15 “jobs bills” consists of little more than some selected item from some special interest’s wish list.

    As to the count of 25, I have no idea what the other 10 might be.

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  22. MataHarley says: 22

    Greg, really now…. you refuse to answer any questions about what specific “poison pill” you find unacceptable, and instead come back on here with BS like comparisons to the McCarthy era, accusing conservatives of being “smarmy used car dealers” – frankly a description that better fits your Chicago thug POTUS – and babble about special interests while ignoring the largest of special interests groups your POTUS uses – the unions and Media Matters/superpac?

    oh my… have you no shame? But you might go talk to Ivan. He won’t answer questions either.

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  23. Greg says: 23

    If you want to talk about poison, maybe the first on the list of 15 would be a good example. Since it actually deals with poison.

    (1) The Reducing Regulatory Burdens Act (H.R 872) – Reduces overlapping and unnecessary regulation on pesticides; thereby reducing costs to both farmers and small business owners.
    • Introduced by Rep. Bob Gibbs (OH) on March 2, 2011
    • Passed the House by a vote of 292-130 on March 31, 2011

    The poison pill is that democrats generally resist efforts to free people up to spray toxic crap around with wild abandon, even if keeping the environment safer for disposable human beings costs farmers and small business owners a bit more money. Democrats generally won’t go for it.

    We could run down the entire list. But the points and counterpoints are predictable, and neither of us would change our minds, so why even bother?

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  24. Hard Right says: 24

    Greg the propagandist doesn’t care what the truth is, just being a useful marxist idiot.

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  25. Greg says: 25

    I’m sure Hard Right will agree that reducing controls on the freedom to spray toxic chemicals into the environment and onto things that wind up being fed to American children is fundamentally a “jobs bill.”

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  26. Hard Right says: 26

    Psssst greg, I don’t buy leftist BS on pesticides thanks to the junk science your kind pushed about DDT and Alar.
    But keep midlessly spewing dem talking points to excuse their obstruction of job creation and energy independance.

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  27. GREG
    THE THING IS THAT they should not throw their weight around but give a n explanation to why it is a poison to who they notice over doing the spray, why does a GOVERNMENT ELECTED BY PEOPLE,
    SHOULD IMPOSE ANYTHING THEY SEE FIT BY THEIR OWN STANDARD alone.
    DO YOU THINK THAT AMERICANS ARE SO STUPID ENOUGH TO NOT UNDERSTAND ANY POSITIVE EXPLANATION as oppose to a force regulation hitting them like a bullet in the head forcing them out of nowhere to spend a lot of money to comply with the multiple agencies targeting them constantly,
    with thousands of laws made up by ingnorant desk licking people with their bum always sitting and gazing on their computer with the intent to find some more of it to choke the AMERICANS AS THEY ARE BEING TOLD TO TAKE AS MUCH AS THEY CAN FROM THE FREEDOM OF THE SAME PEOPLE
    WHO ELECTED THEM TO SERVE AND PROTECT THAT FREEDOM.
    AND THE PEOPLE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF IT,

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  28. Nan G says: 28

    @Greg:
    We sure do have a lot of pollutants in our new Obama-approved light bulbs.
    But the Left doesn’t want to do a thing about that, huh?
    http://www.epa.gov/cfl/cflcleanup-detailed.html

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  29. MataHarley says: 29

    Greg, what the heck are you talking about? That was a bipartisan bill with both Dem/Rep sponsors, including Barney Frank. 57 House Dems voted for this, and 30 of them were co-sponsors of the bill.

    It had to do with overlapping agencies that had duplicative permitting for already regulated pesticides. The CWA doesn’t have a permitting process, and this all has to do with the EPA putting in a new unneeded government expansion process into place, and more time consuming red tape.

    And because of the SCOTUS decision… being, once again, forced to interpret bad laws they didn’t write… planned mosquito control in places like CA’s Contra Costa County won’t be happening.

    The ruling, which took effect in the fall, requires pesticide use to adhere to the Clean Water Act, meaning seasonal fogging may cease in parts of the Bay Area. That will increase the chances of humans getting infected with the potentially fatal virus, experts say. A bill that would free vector control agencies from these rules is stuck in Congress.

    Meanwhile, the agencies are watching closely an infestation of the Asian tiger mosquito in Southern California. This dangerous mosquito can carry not only West Nile but also dengue fever, known as “break-bone fever” because of its accompanying joint and muscle pains. This mosquito was found in Santa Clara County six years ago but was quarantined before it could spread.

    Most people bitten by a mosquito carrying West Nile experience no symptoms. Twenty to 30 percent, however, will contract West Nile fever and flu-like symptoms, according to the Contra Costa Mosquito & Vector Control District. Since 1999, the U.S. has had more than 30,000 reported human cases, with 1,220 deaths.

    “We could definitely see an increase in the number of human cases of West Nile virus,” said Steve Schutz, scientific program manager for the Concord-based agency.

    Scientists from the state’s 65 vector control agencies are meeting at their annual conference in Burlingame this week to discuss the issues.

    The pesticides in question are already regulated under another agency.

    EPA began working on a permitting system after the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the agency’s 2006 ruling that aquatic pesticide applications were exempt from the Clean Water Act’s National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System requirements.

    The Court said EPA must have a new permitting system for such applications — which include spraying for mosquitoes by municipal and state abatement districts and unwanted aquatic vegetation by parks departments — by April 1. EPA subsequently sought and received an extension of the deadline until October 31.

    Currently, all pesticides must undergo extensive testing for safety in a variety of application environments under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act. The pesticide label spells out conditions in which pesticides cannot be sprayed.

    “Pesticide permits under the Clean Water Act do not provide further protection of water quality,” said Ed Duskin, executive director of the SCPA who coordinated the visits that included 69 members of Congress and their staffs. “The permits only burden state regulators and applicators with tremendous cost and mountains of paperwork.”

    Duskin says that Congress omitted pesticides when it enacted the Clean Water Act NPDES permitting program in 1972 and never looked beyond FIFRA for the regulation of pesticides.

    By its calculations, the EPA believes the new permitting system will cover about 1.5 million pesticide applications per year. It anticipates the potential number of permit applicants at 365,000 and estimates the annual time burden at 1,033,713 hours for permittees and 45,809 hours for the 45 delegated permit authorities in the states.

    H.R. 872 would amend FIFRA and the Clean Water Act to say that no permit is required for the labeled use of any registered pesticide. It would also instruct EPA and the courts that Congress did not intend other environmental laws to overtake FIFRA.

    The bill passed the House on March 31 by a vote of 292-130 with all House Republicans and 57 Democrats voting in its favor. Despite the overwhelming approval in the House, it faces an uncertain future in the Senate

    Naturally, at the forefront is that ag expert (LOL) Barbara Boxer who wants a complete halt to everything until EPA does more expensive studies for already regulated pesticides. Odd, considering her state that will be taking the big health risks for her nanny attitude.

    “In March of this year, the House passed a bipartisan bill, H.R. 872, which amends both the CWA and FIFRA to prevent such redundant regulatory burdens. Sens. Boxer (D-CA), chair of the Environmental and Public Works Committee, and Cardin (D-MD) put a hold on the bill. Sens. Stabenow (D-MI) and Roberts (R-KS) of the Senate Agriculture, Nutrition & Forestry Committee negotiated for a compromise agreement offering a two-year moratorium on the permits. However, Sen. Boxer insisted on a comprehensive study of pesticide impacts on waters, which has stalled the negotiations.”

    I’m sure that the studies and le femme Boxer’s concern will comfort those who become ill because of no mosquito control this year. /sarc

    So it seems that it’s only Reid and Senate cronies who are willing to risk mosquito epidemic outbreaks for bureaucracy and politics.

    Next?

    ReplyReply
  30. Greg says: 30

    @MataHarley, #29:

    H.R. 872 would amend FIFRA and the Clean Water Act to say that no permit is required for the labeled use of any registered pesticide. It would also instruct EPA and the courts that Congress did not intend other environmental laws to overtake FIFRA.

    Why would it be beneficial to public health and safety that no CWA permit be required?

    The CWA permitting process deals specifically with the application of pesticides and herbicides directly to forest canopies, streams, rivers, and lakes. Agricultural use is exempted. Situations involving inadvertent agricultural run-off are exempted. Non-target spray drift is exempted. CWA permitting is involved because the specific issue is applying chemicals to water. Anyone who wants to apply toxic chemicals directly to water should need to get a permit under the more stringent provisions of the Clean Water Act before doing so. I don’t care that they consider it annoying red tape. Regulatory agencies aren’t there to rubber-stamp whatever the hell industry wants to do.

    Which is all beside the point. The point was that this is being pitched as a republican jobs bill. That characterization is complete horse hockey.

    ReplyReply
  31. MataHarley says: 31

    Gee, I dunno Greg… because it’s regulated and approved for use elsewhere perhaps, and a double dip on permits/paperwork? Or that you need a permit at all when you apply the pesticide via already approved label instructions?

    I’m well aware of what pesticides it includes, but as it pointed out, the EPA didn’t need these permits until the lawsuit and the opinion that the legislation/argument they were ruling on then required a different set (and duplicate) permitting requirements. Thus the consequences of ill thought out legislation that piles on to an already overly burdensome bureaucracy.

    EPA began working on a National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System general permit for pesticide discharges after the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit ruled in 2009 in National Cotton Council et al. v. EPA that pesticide applications were point source discharges under the CWA, and therefore subject to permitting requirements. Industry officials have raised concerns that the ruling sets a novel precedent that could subject other, previously unregulated sources to regulation under the water act — including fertilizer applications and power plant emissions.

    Having several agencies with their fingers in the proverbial permit pie tends to be counterproductive to any genuine intent of the original approval, permit and regulation of the pesticides. Fact is, even Congressional members who support a CWA permitting type system wanted a way to lessen the impact.. i.e. a looming potential health risk by no mosquito spraying allowed. However this is about politics and elections… Reid protecting Boxer… who just happens to be facing a 2012 reelection endeavor… by putting it up for a vote that just may lose on the merits and inanity.

    EPA officials, meanwhile, vowed to issue the permit by the Oct. 31 deadline, in part as a means to alleviate concerns about the impact of the permit. Agency officials also indicated that they planned to soften implementation, including by delaying enforcement for several months.

    But the agency was proceeding without completing a mandatory consultation with FWS to assess, and ameliorate risks to endangered species — a delay that industry officials feared could prompt new litigation and create additional uncertainty for sprayers. “This is a train wreck in the making,” CLA’s Ray McAllister told EPA officials recently.

    …snip…

    CLA’s Greenwood says that since there was no chance of the Senate passing H.R. 872, industry would have to accept it. “We visited with Mitch McConnell’s office, who had been in discussions with Sen. Harry Reid’s office, and acknowledged that there was no scenario in which Sen. Barbara Boxer was going to remove her hold on the bill, there was no scenario that Sen. Reid was going to expose Sen. Boxer on the floor to a vote, and given the state of activity on the United States Senate floor, there was little chance, if any, that we would be able to move [H.R.] 872 in this political environment,” Greenwood said.

    “Therefore, given that reality, we had to determine what our next course was. We could either lose on Oct. 31 and states would have to begin to implement this permit, or we could take the suggestion of the Senate leadership and consider a two year moratorium for [implementation of the EPA permit],” Greenwood continued.

    The GOP source says the consideration of the implementation moratorium has only been actively considered for “a very short amount of time,” and is only being taken seriously because Reid is “protecting Boxer and Cardin’s hold,” and that if the bill were allowed to come up on the Senate floor, it would have well more than the 60 votes necessary to break a filibuster.

    “Even several Democrats who like [CWA permitting for pesticides] and think it’s a good idea recognize that it’s not the best way to deal with the problem, recognize this [ruling] is biting off way more than is necessary,” the aide says. “It’s jut not a good decision, and the fact is that we’re up against this deadline in try to fix it. It’s sad.”

    ReplyReply
  32. MataHarley says: 32

    Getting to the heart of it all, you said a “poison pill” and brought up HR 872. I have now pointed out to you that it’s actually quite bipartisan, except when it comes to protecting Boxer in an election year. Therefore it was not a “poison pill” at all. It was the do nothing Senate, playing politics.

    ReplyReply
  33. anticsrocks says: 33

    @MataHarley: Was it Reagan that said facts are stubborn things? Pity they keep getting in Greg’s way.

    I almost feel sorry for him…

    Almost

    Greg isn’t one to have real debate, rather he prefers to stick to his bomb-throwing, emotional rhetoric.

    ReplyReply

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