If you want it done right you do it yourself.
Libyan military commanders loyal to Moammar Gaddafi are blunting the impact of NATO’s air campaign by hiding tanks and artillery in densely populated areas where the alliance’s fighter planes cannot easily reach them, U.S. and European diplomats said Wednesday.
The shift in tactics has meant fewer targets for NATO warplanes, fueling complaints by rebels who say the quality of air support has plummeted since the United States turned over command of Libyan operations to NATO. Opposition leaders say Gaddafi’s forces are inflicting particularly heavy casualties on civilians in the rebel-held city of Misurata, where dug-in loyalists have been operating with little interference from NATO missiles and bombs.
NATO officials in Brussels acknowledged carrying out fewer strikes around Misurata because of fears of inadvertently killing civilians in areas where the Libyan military was cheek by jowl with civilians.
And when we did FINALLY get in the fight, took command of the fight, and supplied our troops, equipment, and war-making know-how, the tide turned towards the “rebel” side. The waffling that Obama did for weeks pretty much sealed the fate of the conflict but if we were in command, and actually committed to the fight no one has any doubt we would of taken Gaddafi out. But as usually is the case with Obama, he didn’t do crap for days, and weeks, on end and when he finally did decide to jump in he had us stay in the shallow end of the pool. In an attempt to appease his base he said we would only be there for a few weeks and then we would be out, transferring the command to NATO.
I mean what could go wrong? Look at what a great job they did in Afghanistan.
And sure enough, they have screwed it up. Who in their right mind didn’t know that they would hide their stuff in civilian areas? I will tell you with a 100% certainty our command staff knew it….but of course we are not there anymore to command the war.
So now that the small coalition looks like fools, NOW they are thinking of sending in ground troops:
The United States may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.
Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers Thursday that added American participation would not be ideal, and ground troops could erode the international coalition and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.
It’s a small coalition to begin with, smaller then Bush had with Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are not leading it.
Can you say stalemate?
The whole thing was absurd to begin with. We had a President who spoke endlessly about his objections to President Bush committing troops to a war against a country that he felt was no threat to us, who then committed troops to a war against a country that absofreakinlutely posed no threat to us, and then to top it all off we helped those who fought against us in Afghanistan and had pretty strong ties to al-Qaeda.
The mind boggles.
But if you’re gonna do it then f**king DO IT, and do it right.
So my question is…what kind of leader commits this country to war in a half-assed fashion, and then has us run to the hills?
Answer…no leader at all.
UPDATE
And as I was writing this rant look what came over the wire:
The commander of Libya’s rebel forces has said Nato apologised for mistakenly hitting a column of rebel tanks near the eastern town of Ajdabiya.
Gen Abdelfatah Yunis said the deadly air strike had occurred despite a warning to Nato that the tanks were being moved to the front line.
Yeah….no one saw this coming at all.
Sigh…..
See author page
Yes, now is the time to send in ground troops under half-assed NATO leadership of dubious abilities when both sides just want someone to kill. Destroying a tank convoy of friendlies! Too Funny! How do demonstrators all of a sudden become tank jockeys? How much does a used tank with ammo cost these days? Who are these guys we are supposed to be helping? Groucho Marx made more sense than Obama’s Vanity War and his foreign policy.
Vanity Wars, by my definition, I have that liberty since I coined the term, are wars that are safe, short, relatively bloodless, and fought almost entirely to make a leader look good before an election; unfortunately, this one is going to be hard to salvage for Obama. There has been no benefit and Daffy Duck is till in power and likely to make a bigger pest of himself in the future now that he has defeated the US and NATO. This Vanity War is going over like a loud fart in church on a hot day for Obama. Everyone is looking at him like he can make the stink go away, but it’s the kind that likes to linger and Obama knows he has a bad case of gas and the service is a long one.
Skookum it seems two religious leaders Rev. Write and Farrakahn are a little upset about the smell of Obamas fart in church. The US was silent but violent on the issues, some of us prefer the US to be loud and proud.
Saw some video clips on weasal zippers. Nobody could survive those huge humanitarian secondary explosions. Saw the damage done by friendly kinetic military action missiles on veterans from Iraq. Is there enough oil there to make a parking lot out of the place? This sham military action is a farce.
Wink…War By Committee…
NATO Confirms Its Planes Struck Libyan Rebels
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/04/08/nato-confirms-planes-struck-libyan-rebels/
No Clear Leadership, Just Whack A Mole…like a Kids Game.
Gotta love NATO. They did an amazing job in Afghanistan bossing around our military.
As for Gaddaffi, I could have wagged this dog in less than 24 hours with a tomahawk missile or seven. Gaddaffi was a sitting Gaddaffi Duck while making his three-hour long speech during the first week.
Someone tell Odumbo that you cannot lob stones and think the opposition is going to run.
OLD TROOPER 2, hi, It seems that they don’t know which side to bomb in there,
what do they mean by protecting civiliens, when the civiliens belong to one group or the other fighting each other, so they should not bomb at all, and let them fight their own war, because either one win it , they will still want to kill us in the future
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE, At this point without a clear Objective, a clear Mission, no apparent source of Intelligence that is credible and no on the Ground Liaison with “Friendly Forces” makes this just senseless Mayhem, ordinance expended on non-identified Targets but “to whom it may concern”, it is grab-ass Warfare by Committee and not worthy of the cost or effort. Nothing good or noble will result from this effort. Just a live fire exercise on live targets. It serves no Military, Economic or Political End result.
This is quite frankly shameful.
OLD TROOPER 2, thank you for your expertise in this conflict,
where we all are scratching our head on what is going on, and
what is done and shouldn’t be done, in that COUNTRY ,
WHERE WE CANNOT GET TOGETER TO GO ALONG WITH FRANCE WHOM HAVE DECIDED TOO EARLY ON
WHICH SIDE TO SUPPORT, AND WHAT MADE THEM SO SURE THAT THEY WHERE RIGHT TO DO IT,
BYE
I think Obama played this one almost perfectly.
Do you guys know who these “rebels” are? Are the pro-democracy, secularist freedom fighters? Are they Al Qaeda? Are they Islamists?
The problem was Gaddafi’s jets and tanks about to rumble into Benghazi, where Gaddafi had declared a scorched earth policy and the slaughter of thousands. So Obama stopped that and then turned it over to NATO and the Europeans.
It was a limited mission. Stop the impending slaughter. Get in. Get out. Don’t commit to owning it, as no one knows for sure who are the good guys in this fight, if anyone.
I’m going to be very disappointed if the Obama ultimately allows the US to get sucked into this one.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach. CA
Larry I respectfully disagree, Old Trooper is right. If we don’t have any idea who the government is coming up behind Gaddafis regime from the beginning we need to go back to the bargaining table with the rebels and keep our noses out of there business till they do. Even in viet Nam we had the South Vietnamese government whom we supported(who were a bad government) at least we had a American friendly regime to take power. NATO will soon face the consequences of there actions and now Gaddafi may re-arm with nuclear weapons, or start terrorist attacks against the US and europe (probably europe).
@Zac. It’s an honest difference of opinion. Thanks for disagreeing “respectfully.” Always appreciated 🙂
Larry diplomacy is not something that comes natural(especially for me) but I’ve learned the hard way its the only way we can get a point across and have those who disagree with us take notice.
Lary have you ever seen somebody driving down the highway try to spit there chewing tobacco out the window of a vehicle? It can get messy and I can guarantee they will only do it once. Obama has lost enough votes over this war that whether he wins or not, he will now have to face the people with his face all covered in goo, he looks a little silly right now. Some people may feel like its alright because they themselves have tryed spitting chew out the window of a moving vehicle, I think there are a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum that agree with me though. I understand the point your making, I would have certainly been on your side under different circumstance.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim…This was predictable. The slaughter continues unabated and there are Jihadist elements amongst the Rebel Forces that infiltrated in through Egypt as the Good Colonel brought in weapons from Serbia, Grad Missiles configured “technical style” for launch from Civilian Pickup trucks.
Kinda hard to tell who is who when Military Uniforms are not worn. Asymmetrical Warfare as Everyone appears to be Civilians. Add a couple thousand Mercenaries with just small arms training that were imported during the reluctance to create true no fly zones or seal off ports and You have murder, mayhem and a general breakdown in infrastructure, food and medicine shortages. A real recipe for the perpetuation of hostilities with no end.
Dithering, no Mission Plan besides throwing Cruise Missiles at $1.42 Million a pop, air strikes that have not stopped ground forces from the good Colonel and negotiations conducted with the Colonel by separate Nations and not NATO as a whole.
Yep, Obama is managing NOTHING and the fighting continues. If that suits You I’m quite pleased that You are happy. The outcome will take months with continued battles and death on a two block War basis.
This is something that the US should have either exercised Leadership or walked away from. It is a Goat-rope.
OLD TROOPER 2, how terrible,for a country so much older than our own, to have not found the FREEDOM of our own country,because they made choices to remain by the book not even tried to questioned it, and today exploding like a volcano. and we cannot do nothing but watch it sink under the
shatterds rubbels of destruction: you above other know and feel its desperation deep into your soul,
because you have seen the same humanity explosion before, and you went to help in many warzones,
as this one to help separate the good from evil. yes it must be hard for you to look at the eye of that new storm destroying another part of this earth. take care, you are needed in many places where the sun is shining bright just for you.
There are no good guys; there is only oil and the prime “sweet crude” of the world that costs the least to refine. Europe didn’t want to lose their contracts with Daffy Duck and they certainly didn’t want him making himself into a war criminal. The loss of human life, let’s be serious; is a Libyan more valuable than an African from Darfur, the Congo, Bangladesh, North Korea? Hell No! It’s the oil contracts and Obama wants to keep the oil flowing, maybe his benefactor is involved, George Soros. You think he would hesitate to send in our troops if the Soros funds were threatened, don’t kid yourself. Our rockets and soon our troops will be fighting for oil. Obama knows what side of his bread has the crude oil and it isn’t our side.
Hmmm I’m just relaxing on my front yard with laptop in hand writing some stuff. I have had a lot of time to think about posting my article on the same subject but I’ve decided to do it. Seems based on the length of the thread this current issue has not gotten enough exposure and that’s my reasoning, its more important than the next CiC, or arguing over the cost of fuel. I’m certainly not the best writer here so I’m not writing to impress anybody, I’m at no disadvantage though because I can kick ass pretty good in every other department. Ill send it to Curt after a thorough spell/grammar check. Which it needs.
Old Trooper it is good to hear from you again. The sun came out in the Lower Mainland of BC today and the place is greening up like crazy. The fruit trees are in bloom and nature’s life cycle is starting once again: here’s hoping Obama quits with his Napoleonic dreams before he makes a really big mistake and you get home to your ranch in the Bitter Roots to see the hay fields turn green this spring.
Let’er buck Zac, there ain’t no English professors on these cyber pages, that’s for damn sure.
Add to this the fact that the Colonel has several tons of Mustard gas at his disposal and fully within His control. We have known that for a decade or more. How does that sit with You All? Reckon that He will use it on His own People? What or Who will stop him?
This has been conveniently ignored by France and Italy, his larger Oil Clients. Lets see what a World without US Leadership has in store. War by Committee with no one responsible party taking charge. That is the Obama Doctrine. Arab Spring on steroids, preventable weeks ago but the cork is out of the bottle now.
It is now a full blown Civil War with the US on the sidelines. The Obama Regime voted Present…
Come on now, OT… you know that possession of mustard gas isn’t a WMD by lib/prog standards unless it’s located in Iraq, and only if it’s mustard gas manufactured post 2003….. LOL
Wonder why the O’admin isn’t worried about the Saddam WMD materials moved over to Syria, also in the state of chaos? Guess that’s not a hazard to the citizens, or a national security issue, eh?
Putzes in charge…. feh
OLD TROOPER 2, hi, I think that the problem to have a military composit of many COUNTRYS IS
making it difficult ,like you say by comity which are lead by another country’s COMMANDER
for the MILITARYS on the ground to comprehend the HIGH COMMAND STRATEGY,
WHICH ITSELF MUST FOLLOW THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT FROM THE UN ORGANISATION
WHICH IS CIVILIEN LEAD AND EACH COUNTRYS LEADER ON TOP OF IT ALL,
IT change the reality of what a war is for, and how you apply the ORDERS FROM COMMANDER OUT OF SITE, WHICH DOES NOT HAVE FULL REDLIGHT TO APPLY HIS STRATEGY,
no wonder we see war dragging for many years and taking with them the best of the braves.
as oppose to simpler techniques used in previous wars that where done having follow a pattern of organisation that you mentionned before
and a very important time strategy that was miss by far on this conflict
the factor alert and readyness also has miss the response
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaddafi-could-turn-to-libyas-mustard-gas-stockpile-some-officials-fear/2011/03/16/ABT9iEt_story.html
In the garage, south of the city of Sirte, the Libyan government keeps about 10 tons of mustard gas in about a half-dozen large canisters. If he chose to do so — and could determine how — Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi could use the caustic chemical to kill large numbers of his people.
Nothing untoward has been seen there so far, and U.S. officials say that such an attack is unlikely and would be difficult to carry out.
But the chemicals have nonetheless been a focus of concern by former Libyan officials and some European leaders who have worried that the mercurial leader could seek to drain the tanks and either use the gas to terrorize the city of Benghazi, the last large rebel stronghold, or try to draw on the stockpile as part of a desperate move to stay in power.
ZAC YES how come the UN allowed those mustard gaz to stay there without being banned just like other dangerous chemical, what are they there for pretending to help the humanity,
that is a proof of their care for humanity, and what else don’t we know, of their carlessness
Bees my dad always said that the UN was the most corrupt organization in the world. I don’t know if they had a contest to find that out but he may have been right.
One reason it takes so long for our King-in-Chief to make decisions is that he doesn’t make decision. He has to wait for orders from above. After his higher powers decide what THEY want Obama to do, then he gets his marching orders.
As I have mentioned before, when I heard Obama say he wanted a civilian security force as large as the military and equally funded, I knew he wanted to overthrow the USA. This is why I figure everything he does or doesn’t do is to accomplish that objective. So far, it is working.
One of Obama’s objectives is to bankrupt America. So far, this is going as planned. Another objective is to align with countries who hate us and steer away from our allies. This too is going as planned.
He hadn’t talked with his cabinet for two years. Has he talked with them since? You don’t need to meet with your cabinet members if your orders come from above you.
This is why I am not surprised when things like this happen. Obama would like to be a dictator and idolizes those who are. Remember how he had to create a title for himself when he won the election but wasn’t installed yet? Office of the President Elect. He can’t wait until he is crowned king of whatever he renames the USA.
SMORGASBOR, hi, this is scary stuff, and that is the reason why nobody
is willing to analyse the even remote possibility of it being done, even when
it start to dig in their pockets. even when they get frustrated over non actions or actions, which are unforgiveble.
@ilovebeeswarzone: #26
It is because the propaganda media only says what the democrats want them to. If they told the truth there would be few democrats in office.
@MataHarley: Come on now, Saddam didn’t have any WMD because it was all a lie and McDermott and his other two stooges along with Sean Penn were told he didn’t have any when they visited there. He was way too nice of a guy to have moved it to Syria prior to the invasion or to have buried it in his own country. As for the stuff that we know about that was found there, it was old although no one on the left will volunteer to expose themselves to its contents in order to prove it was harmless and besides the CIA put it there. He also was in compliance with all the UN resolutions, didn’t kill any of his people, didn’t support terrorism, and never fired at any of our planes. Please Mata, let’s get on board with the revisionist history! (I’d put a smiley face but don’t know how)
I am not quite sure whether Obama’s position in Libya can be compared with Bush’s conduct of the war in Iraq. There were no links between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. And another problem is that Bush refused the offer of NATO to involve its troops in the fight against terror in Afghanistan. Then the terrorist groups in this country regained their power and Obama was left with no alternative but to continue with the process started by the Bush administration.
No one in the Bush admin ever said there was…. That happened to be the talking point of the US opposition. Only fools bought into what was never said.
I think we can draw comparisons from many other wars, as guidance if nothing else. Care to post some links though David?
Ya know, we could be doing a lot of good things for this country. I’m disappointed. If we are not the liberators here, then what are we?…
I thought the French and British were suppose to be the front line guys in this operation and the U.S. was to take a back seat. The U.S. doesn’t have to start and lead every NATO mission. It’s Lybia, not the Soviet Union. European countries have drastically cut back on their militaries to fund their social programs and now they are paying the price. They just don’t have the equipment to handle even a weakened foe. That’s why European countries are looking to the U.S. again.
Also the reporting is wrong. It’s not a NATO operation. There are just five NATO countries participating in this adventure which are The U.S., France, UK, Canada and Italy.
@Gregory_Dittman, Add in the Arab League while You are keeping score. As You know the Major AWACS assets are US as is the Airborne Command and Control Satellite links for airstrikes. The US is not in Command or Leading.
The Arab League has Veto power on use of Airstrikes.
Gregory_DITTMEN, HI,I read in a CANADIAN news paper that a CANADIAN COMMANDER,
WSA TAKING THE COMMAND OF THE LIBYA CONFLICT to apply the nofly zone and was moving to the colorado head COMMAND,
and you said not a NATO GROUP, ONLY 5 COUNTRYS participating,
what else would you call this MISSION done with just a part of NATO,
OLD trooper 2 , hi, I don’t think the other will trust too much the ARAB LEAGUE,
after they let down every one at the last minute, and now they have veto on airstrike,
that sound suspicious to me,
@mata (#32): Here’s the thing, though. Between September 2002 and March 2003, every time the President made a speech about Iraq, he repeatedly juxtaposed the terms “Saddam” and “9/11” — over and over and over. I remember, at the time, each time thinking that he was trying to create the impression of a link, without actually coming out and saying so. It is a fact that, at the time of the invasion in March, 2003, more than 70% of Americans thought that Saddam was directly complicit in 9/11 (“fools” all, apparently). I heard a number of interviews, over the early months and years of the war, with soldiers who had enlisted, stating that the reason they enlisted was “payback for 9/11,” and many similar words to that effect (yet more “fools”).
It wasn’t until September, 2003 that the President said, for the first time, that Saddam had not been involved with 9/11, in response to a question:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/581
.
etc.
I’m not interested in re-litigating Iraq. We got in. Now we own it. I think that owning Iraq and owning Afghanistan is having acquired quite enough property in greater Islamistan. We don’t need any more such property.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
openid.ayol.com/runnswim, I should point out that PRESIDENT BUSH knew a lot more than you, after his father had send the troups to push back SADDAM HUSSAIN who had decide to invade KUWAIT,
they had intelligences forces to check him up in the same time, so HE knew already the danger present,
and when 9/11 happened, IRAK was the logical decision to get them first,
they had to go and show them that you don’t come to attack AMERICA and either one of them would get away with it, that was the right thing to do, some in the opposition screw him up with their idea of rules of engagement, they where a yelling majority, and it prolong the war
The ratio for the Arab League is worse than the ratio for NATO. Qatar is the only member that brought firepower.
If 6 members of an NFL team showed up for a game, the game would be cancelled as if the whole team didn’t show up. That’s why I say it’s neither a NATO mission nor a UN mission. It’s just six countries that showed up to tangle with the government of Libya. I’d call it a six-member coalition and a UN backed coalition, but not a NATO mission nor a UN force.
The U.S. did help punch a whole in Libya’s air defenses and only stopped shooting last Monday. Meanwhile Obama has had diplomatic pressure to keep tossing bombs and missiles not to mention ground troops.
Gregory_Dittman, hi, I beleive you are right on it,
the ARABS seems to be the first to have required some action,then FRANCE
got in to take sides immidiatly as the others got in line, doesn’t look right.
something that we don’t know, why one supported the rebels without having assessed the situation,
unless they already had a play in it, before it started.
and why the missing other NATO COUNTRYS