16 Sep

Cartoonist Molly Norris Marked For Execution by the Religion of Peace [Reader Post]

                                       

Molly Norris is a cartoonist. On her blog she suggested that there be a “Draw Mohammed” Day in a tongue in cheek effort to protest the Comedy Channel’s censorship of a South Park episode. It blew up on her.

If the Internet respected intentions, Seattle cartoonist Molly Norris might have had a good May.

“It’s been horrible,” Norris said from her home Wednesday. “I’m just trying to breathe and get through it.”

It is a culturally, religiously and even racially charged viral movement Norris sparked in April when she drew a cartoon to protest Comedy Central’s decision to nix a recent “South Park” episode that tested the taboo on depicting the Prophet Muhammad. Her cartoon featured a proclamation that Thursday, May 20, be “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day.”

She didn’t mean it, but here’s the punchline: It didn’t matter

She tried to pull it back, but that didn’t work.

(CANVAS STAFF REPORTS) – In more fallout around the decision by Comedy Central to censor an episode of “South Park” that contained comedic depictions of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a cartoonist has now censored herself .

Seattle artist Molly Norris originally posted on her website a cartoon showing many different objects – including a purse, a domino, a coffee cup and a spool of thread – claiming to be a likeness of Muhammad.

Norris said that May 20 would be the first annual “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day” and created a fictional group, Citizens Against Citizens Against Humor, to sponsor the event. She dedicated the illustration to Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the creators of “South Park.”

Well, things have gone from bad to worse. The FBI came to visit Ms. Norris. She has been marked for death by an Imam of the Religion of Peace:

Molly Norris was already stressed. As we mentioned in May, the Seattle cartoonist had lost seven pounds after her tongue-in-cheek declaration that April 20 should be known as “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day” ignited a religious firestorm. “It’s been horrible,” she said nearly two months ago. “I’m just trying to breathe and get through it.” Which makes you wonder how she’s doing now that a radical Islamic cleric has publicly ordered her be executed.

So is it really serious? Yup.

The FBI paid Ms. Norris a visit and placed her under the witness protection program.

At the urging of the FBI, Molly Norris, the Seattle-based illustrator and cartoonist whose satirical drawing marking “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day” resulted in death threats, global protests and impassioned debate about religion and censorship, has been forced to change her name and abandon her former life as a result of her controversial cartoon.

“Draw Mohammed Day” never happened, but that doesn’t matter, just like the non-burning of the Qur’an by Terry Jones. Everyone’s favorite Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki has publicly ordered her death.

Facts are irrelevant

In June, despite her renunciation of the event spawned by her cartoon, Norris was placed on a hit list by Yemeni-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, an al-Qaida-linked figure who has been tied to the Fort Hood, Texas, massacre as well as the failed bombing in Times Square, the New York Daily News reported. Shortly thereafter, the FBI contacted Norris.

Numerous Muslim clerics have called for this fatwa to be rescinded.

OK, I’m kidding. Not one has done so. Someone tell me why. Where are the moderates they tell me really do exist?

About DrJohn

DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education. DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed. Except for liberals being foolish.
This entry was posted in Fanatical Islam, Islam, War On Terror. Bookmark the permalink. Thursday, September 16th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
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34 Responses to Cartoonist Molly Norris Marked For Execution by the Religion of Peace [Reader Post]

  1. Nan G says: 1

    So, actually burn Korans (like Muslims do in terror attacks on shopping centers, Mosques, schools) and nothing….crickets.
    In fact the vast majority of Muslims in Turkey, Egypt, Syria and some other Muslin-ruled countries favor those burners, al Qaeda.

    Say you would LIKE to burn Korans and get a death fatwa.
    Rescind that desire and STILL have a death fatwa on your head.

    Draw a domino and call it Mohammad and get a death fatwa.
    Encourage others to draw a being and call it Mohammad and get a death fatwa.
    Rescind that call and STILL have a death fatwa on your head.

    Print a Koran with a 6-pointed star on the cover and sell it, no death fatwa.
    Call on all buyers of it to return it so it can be burned and STILL no death fatwa.

    If you think there’s no pattern, you are missing the big picture.

    Fellow Muslims get a pass.
    Infidels get the death fatwas.

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  2. Flyovercountry says: 2

    Someone tell me why. Where are the moderates they tell me really do exist?

    No kidding. If the vast majority of practitioners of the Religion of Peace were actually not purveryors of that brand of jihad which is not some sort of contemplative inner struggle, why would it be nescessary to place this woman in protective custody? If the FBI or anyone else in law enforcement honestly believed that these blood thirsty imams represented a small lunatic fringe, a move like this would never have been contemplated, let alone actually taken. Witsec is not free. The cost is considerable to both the taxpayer and the subject involved.

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  3. Otter says: 3

    ‘lil LIAR johnnie ryan’s moral equivalency whimper in 3… 2…….. 1 3/4……………….

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  4. tarpon says: 4

    Someone tell me how this crap is compatible with our Constitution.

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  5. Flyovercountry says: 5

    @tarpon:

    That’s easy! All you need to do is declare that the Constitution is a, “living document,” and therefore open to progressive interpretation. Add a healthy dose of moral equivalence, so that Jehova Witnesses and Mormons knocking on doors seeking converts becomes the same as muslim male extremists betwixt the ages of 17 and 40 killing innocent people become the same perceived crime, and you are almost there. All you need to do now is add 30 to 40 years of leftist indoctrination into the education system, and presto, the two are compatible.

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  6. IMAGINE, AND the MOSQUE is not even done with.
    IS there a law to arrest that IMAM who make death threath,
    he use his power of chief over his followers to incite killing.
    what is this,

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  7. MataHarley says: 7

    drjohn, while I’m sure Anwar al-Awlaki would love your promotion in the Islam food chain, have you got a clue as to what honors you bestow upon that guy? Do you even know what an imam is in the Muslim world?

    He has no extraordinary knowledge in Islam compared to other Muslims. His college degrees are not from an Islam seminary, but in civil engineering. You bandy his name about as if he’s an elevated Sheik scholar in Islam when he’s no more than a wannabe Zarqawi… with little power in the Islam food chain.

    So he calls for her death? And this is indicative of all of Islam? only to those impressionable to media headlines.

    Since you’re always looking for those non-existent “moderate Muslims”, here’s another Muslim blogger that puts al-Awlaki al-Awlaki in his place as a fool at best, and most likely just another mental case.

    http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/short-open-letter-to-anwar-al-awlaki-by-omar-muzaffar/

    Oh… but that can’t be because all Muslims are closet jihad, right? feh

    ~~~

    @Flyovercountry, I haven’t a clue who fits your parameters to qualify for being “moderate”. But if you’re looking for Muslims that have equal, if not more (since they are the ones being killed…) hatred for jihad, I suggest you read the the latest annual report from the Bipartisan Policy Center on assessing the threats of terrorism.

    Start on the four weaknesses of the global Islamic jihad movement on pg 23 of the 44 pg document (not to be confused with all of Islam…), and you’ll find that Muslim nations’ increasing hostility against military jihad movements has been rising dramatically since 2008. And therein lies some of the jihad movement’s greatest weaknesses… the hatred of fellow Muslims, tired of being killed by militants.

    But then, I don’t know what any of these Muslims can say to placate so many of you. That they fight them on their own doesn’t apparently work if they don’t grovel for forgiveness for their choice of religion… practiced differently from the infidel interpretation. Gosh darn… so many expert Muslim Sheiks in the infidel ranks because they “google”. Hang… Zarqawi shouldn’t have worried so much about his low status in the scholarly world of Islam. All he needed was google, right?

    Maybe if y’all catch up on the latest “diversification” of jihad operatives, you’ll figure out that they are actively recruiting non-Arab types most specifically to avoid profiling traps. The highest group statisically for recruits is Somalians. Most likely crossing into the US via Mexico, via the latest immigration news.

    And oh, BTW.. the recruitment predominately is done via Internet, not American mosques. Also, they are recruiting the American operatives to carry out overseas plots against western interests for the majority….

    …. for now.

    But then, if anyone had read Tony Blankley’s Townhall op-ed yesterday, chastising the gullible American hot heads from being all fired consumed with Jones/Rauf, and ignoring the above linked report, you’d figure out that the “corrosive” distraction is actually detrimental to the overall battle.

    In plotting the 9/11 attacks, Osama bi Laden exploited the lack of coordination between counterterrorism officials. Similar vulnerabilities exist today with regard to the terrorist plots being incubated offshore, but using U.S. citizens, permanent residents and those with legal visas as their deadly operatives.

    It is vital for us to crack these networks, not just to defend against future attacks, but to take the offensive. With a clear understanding of the terrorist recruiting infrastructure inside the U.S., we will be able to insert double agents — “pipeliners” — into the foreign-based al-Qaida affiliates.

    It would help if U.S. authorities could gain the cooperation and active assistance of freedom-loving, patriotic Muslims. That is why the Jones-Rauf media diversion, with its cultural divisiveness, is so corrosive. But with or without such incidents, the pull and reach of radical Islam is powerful — which is why nations from Britain to Holland to the U.S. are constantly surprised when seemingly middle-class, law-abiding Muslims suddenly turn up violent in our midst.

    In case you haven’t figured it out, in order to be a “double agent”, one is likely another Muslim, volunteering. But, of course, since everyone’s busy condemning him as a closet jihadi, why should he bother? After all, OBL is correct. America… according to the bulk of the conservative world… is waging a war on Islam, and not on jihad.

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  8. Smorgasbord says: 8

    I still have the Mohamed turban bomb in my iPhoto collection.

    Has anyone heard of any Muslim DEMANDING that the extremists that are causing all of the violence be kicked out of the religion? Have they DEMANDED that none of the money that they give to the religion goes to terrorists?

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  9. MataHarley says: 9

    Maybe, Smorgasbord, the world’s scientists should have “DEMANDED” that Timothy McVeigh denounce his “science is my religion” mantra in order to clear their reputation?

    Maybe the Republican party should “DEMAND” that Larry Craig, Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, etal should be kicked out of the party to redeem their credibility?

    How about if the military “kicks out” any wayward soldier for post service behavior?

    Have you got any clue how silly your personal demands for [scoff] approval sound in the scheme of things?

    My suggestion is you look at what they are doing instead blowing off armchair PC lip service. When Syria bans face coverings on their campuses for security purposes, they are making a statement against jihad. When the Saudi’s arrest thousands of suspected terrorists in the past year, killing more than a hundred and implementing an information campaign against them, and arresting preachers who are encouraging militancy – do they have to call you and say the words you want to hear to be considered proactive?

    When the Pakistani’s leap from 28% support for the Pak military taking out Taliban and militant jihadists to 69% support in just two years, do they have to call you and say the words you want to hear?

    When Indonesia’s support for suicide bombings has dropped from 26 percent to 15 percent in the past eight years and in Jordan from 43 percent to 20 percent, must they call you for you personal approval that they are not in support of jihad?

    Frankly, it’s a ton of chutzpah, dude. You’re not the one dying in masses on a regular basis from jihad. It’s the Muslims themselves.

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  10. Smorgasbord says: 10

    @MataHarley: #9 I admit I don’t keep track of the Muslim world, but I still haven’t heard of any effort to eject the extreme ones from the religion or to make sure no money donated to the religion isn’t funneled to the terrorists. Several organizations have been kicked out of the Tea Part Patriots organization when they are found out not to be what they pretend to be. Islam could do the same thing.

    You are known by the company you keep, and they are still keeping company with the terrorists, or the ones who don’t support terrorism would break away and form their own group or kick out the ones who are not what they are supposed to be.

    I still haven’t had anyone explain to me how Islam isn’t a terrorist organization when they still teach that they must convert others, and if they can’t convert them they must kill them, and if someone wants to leave Islam, they must be killed.

    Many years ago I remember one man that belonged to a Christian religion that I forget what the name was, but it had the word “reformed” at the end to let others know it was based on the original religion, but they separated from the original beliefs enough that they formed their own branch in the same religion. That is all that I have been saying the moderate Muslims should do. They could stay Muslims but forsake the “convert or kill” and the idea that they must kill anyone who tries to leave the religion and any other part of the Koran that they don’t agree with.

    We have been through this before and I still have my opinion and you have yours and neither one of us are going to change. Let’s just leave it at that and stay friends.

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  11. MataHarley says: 11

    Smorgasbord, you said:

    Several organizations have been kicked out of the Tea Part Patriots organization when they are found out not to be what they pretend to be. Islam could do the same thing.

    If you’re thinking of the bigot, Mark Williams, you couldn’t be more mistaken. He walked away with ample tea party donation money, and is now actively working with Pam Geller. From one bigotry to another… and on the tea party’s dime. Geller’s ‘tude is not confined to the Cordoba House/GZM.

    I admit I don’t keep track of the Muslim world, but I still haven’t heard of any effort to eject the extreme ones from the religion or to make sure no money donated to the religion isn’t funneled to the terrorists.

    ….. snip….

    You are known by the company you keep, and they are still keeping company with the terrorists, or the ones who don’t support terrorism would break away and form their own group or kick out the ones who are not what they are supposed to be.

    Perhaps it would behoove you to go to the link of the latest annual Terrorist Threat Assessment report and start catching up on the world of Islam. I hardly think that the active chasing of the Islam bad guy can be considered considered “keeping company”… no more than all Pentacostals can be considered “keeping company” with the whackjob mother who murdered her children in the name of her skewed perception of her religion.

    But I will say one more time, if you need to “kick out” those who are “not what they are supposed to be”, I suggest you get your tar and feathers ready for Brown, Chris Christie, and a good portion of the GOP who is dragged kicking and screaming to supporting the tea party candidates who won elections. Ready to “kick out” the GOP leadership because they aren’t they aren’t “what they are supposed to be”?

    Be consistent, Smorgasbord. If you demand such condemnation from Muslims who are waging physical war against the jihad movements in their midst in front of your very nose… tho you don’t catch the scent…. then you’d better be prepared to do a sheeeeet load of condemnation of the variety of conservatives leaders in the following months.

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  12. Wordsmith says: 12

    @Smorgasbord:

    I admit I don’t keep track of the Muslim world, but I still haven’t heard of any effort to eject the extreme ones from the religion

    Some links right here, +1.

    I still haven’t had anyone explain to me how Islam isn’t a terrorist organization when they still teach that they must convert others, and if they can’t convert them they must kill them, and if someone wants to leave Islam, they must be killed.

    Most Muslims must be living life as apostates, then.

    Many years ago I remember one man that belonged to a Christian religion that I forget what the name was, but it had the word “reformed” at the end to let others know it was based on the original religion, but they separated from the original beliefs enough that they formed their own branch in the same religion. That is all that I have been saying the moderate Muslims should do. They could stay Muslims but forsake the “convert or kill” and the idea that they must kill anyone who tries to leave the religion and any other part of the Koran that they don’t agree with.

    And how often do you see the “convert or kill” occurring? How about in the U.S.? How many Islamic societies today require the jizya be paid by non-believers?

    We have been through this before and I still have my opinion and you have yours and neither one of us are going to change.

    Are you not open to the possibility that what you know or think you know might not be totally accurate? I’m willing to explore the possibility that I am wrong.

    Are you interested in “reality” and a closer understanding of “the truth” or only in literature and opinions that do nothing but give validity to your own conceived perceptions and opinions, even if they might be wrong/distorted/inaccurate to one degree or another?

    If you read Robert Spencer, do you really think you’re getting a “fair and balanced’ portrait there? Or are you being indoctrinated into sharing a perception by someone pushing an agenda? If you read anti-Islamic literature then don’t be surprised if you walk away, anti-Islam educated. And yes, the converse holds true as well. Read PC-ified pro-Islamic studies, and what you have is “religion of peace” beliefs.

    Personally, I don’t think you ever bothered to read or explore anything that divergent opinions from yours have given you over the last couple of months. It’s willful blindness to leave stones unturned. You only read and hear what you wish to hear. Why bother to debate at all, when your mind’s made up?

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  13. Smorgasbord says: 13

    @Wordsmith: #12 I had to look up who Robert Spencer was because I had never heard of him. I have formed my opinion of Islam through many conservative blogs and talking with other people. I have said that I am one who can be convinced of anything if I am given enough evidence.

    I just read another article where a school class was taken to a mosque to learn about architecture only to find out they were being taught about Islam. Listen to the woman tell how they were the first to allow women to vote and the response from the one who created the video. Keep in mind that the Muslims are taught that it is OK to lie under certain circumstances and that it is OK to kill other Muslims in the process of killing the infidels.

    http://bigpeace.com/cjacobs/2010/09/16/school-trip-to-moderate-mosque-inside-video-captures-kids-bowing-to-allah/

    I don’t understand why you are so concerned about convincing me that Islam isn’t a danger to the USA when I know it is. They are trying to make us change our laws to fit theirs just like they are doing in Europe. Do you think we should have to change our laws so that they can wear their required clothing, pray five times a day on employer time, let them decide what punishment will be handed out to members even if it contradicts Federal or state laws?

    We are even building a memorial to the terrorists of Flight 93 in Shanksville PA, not far from where I live. The four terrorist who hijacked the plane are listed with the other passengers and crew. The hijackers even get their own inscribed memorial blocks at the memorial, it is shaped like the Islam crescent and star, and it points to Mecca.

    How would you feel if members of your family was killed in a battle between the bad guys and the cops, a memorial was built to honor them, and the bad guys who killed your family members and who were killed in the shootout were listed on the memorial? That is what is going on with the Flight 93 Memorial.

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/flight-93-crescent-memorial-the-other-ground-zero-mosque/

    http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/flight-93-memorial-blogburst-49/

    Just how far will you let them go before you will admit that they want to change the USA to their laws, not adjust to ours? They are raising the temperature of the pot slow enough that the frog might not notice it is being boiled until it is too late. The Muslims build a memorial of some kind at ever important battle they won. Ground Zero and Flight 93 are no exception.

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  14. John says: 14

    This is nonsense and we want to take some heat of Molly.

    At my website: http://www.brokenhometshirts.com We are offering $500 dollars for the most outrageous image of Muhammad and then that image will be sold on one of our t-shirts

    This is enough! We cannot be threatened by third world nations who are harbouring petty criminals.

    Join the fight
    John

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  15. DrJohn says: 15

    @ Mata

    Just find the articles for me in which it is demanded that these fatwas be rescinded. Theo Van Gogh is still dead. Salman Rushdie is still hiding.

    The FBI thought the threat was real enough even if you don’t. Then again, it’s not your neck, eh?

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  16. DrJohn says: 16

    Shariah a danger to U.S., security pros say

    “Today, the United States faces what is, if anything, an even more insidious ideological threat: the totalitarian socio-political doctrine that Islam calls Shariah,” the report says.

    “Though it certainly has spiritual elements, it would be a mistake to think of Shariah as a ‘religious’ code in the Western sense because it seeks to regulate all manner of behavior in the secular sphere — economic, social, military, legal and political.”

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  17. John: hi, THANK GOD YOU’R here. bye

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  18. MataHarley says: 18

    drjohn, the fatwas are issued by the genuine enemy, the global Islamic jihad movements. That is AQ, and all those militant groups it inspires. So why would the enemy… who issued the fatwas… rescind them? I have never said that we don’t have enemies in these cockroaches. Unlike you, however, I do not see jihad and a Shariah revolution behind every corner and in every Muslim.

    Also, unlike you, I know we need Muslim allies for intel. And such all encompassing rhetoric, and sweeping characterizations, as constantly put forth by you and too many here will make sure they find little need to aid westerners who profess their hate so readily and broadly.

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  19. MataHarley says: 19

    ya know, drjohn… before you do your happy dances, you may want to read further than the punditry synopsis. Like go to the source material, fer instance? You’ll find the 177 page document easily available online, and it didn’t take long to see that you and the Washington Times writer apparently decided to read things into this revamped Cold War “Team B” style report in order to hear what you wanted to hear.

    So how about we straighten a bit of your implied “truths” out, shall we?

    Unlike the Cold War commissioned Team B study, this was done with unclassified, readily available research… not inside intel. Also, the report makes a monster distinction of the Shariah they are discussing as early as page 10… which you would have figured out if you actually read the report instead of letting the WaTimes reporter put the thoughts into your head.

    Shariah is the crucial fault line of Islam’s internecine struggle. On one side of the divide are Muslim reformers and authentic moderates – figures like Abdurrahman Wahid, the late president of Indonesia and leader of the world’s largest libertarian Muslim organization, Nahdlatul Ulama – whose members embrace the Enlightenment’s veneration of reason and, in particular, its separation of the spiritual and secular realms. On this side of the divide, shariah is a reference point for a Muslim’s personal conduct, not a corpus to be imposed on the life of a pluralistic society.

    By contrast, the other side of the divide is dominated by Muslim supremacists, often called Islamists. Like erstwhile proponents of Communism and Nazism, these supremacists – some terrorists, others employing stealthier means – seek to impose a totalitarian regime: a global totalitarian system cloaked as an Islamic state and called a caliphate. On that side of the divide, which is the focus of the present study, shariah is an immutable, compulsory system that Muslims are obliged to install and the world required to adopt, the failure to do so being deemed a damnable offence against Allah. For these ideologues, shariah is not a private matter. Adherents see the West as an obstacle to be overcome, not a culture and civilization to be embraced, or at least tolerated. It is impossible, they maintain, for alternative legal systems and forms of governments peacefully to coexist with the end-state they seek.

    Wow… “two Shariah’s”? Why how can that be when all you infidel Islam scholars have told us that just cannot be. It is, of course, the bad guys of Islam’s version of Shariah that is being battled even now by increasing numbers of Muslims in the Middle East, as the 2010 Terrorist Threat Assessment report shows. And as the above paragraph states, the Shariah this report is focusing on SOLELY is the Shariah of the already known and agreed upon enemy… the global Islamic jihad movement.

    But apparently the Center for Security Policy is able to make a distinction that you are not… that not all of Islam is the enemy.

    If you link to a study, wouldn’t you prefer it actually supported your own position, and not echoed that which Wordsmith, AC and I have tried to say over and over? But we’ll be happy to add it to our link lists and remind you that Islam and Shariah are not the one size fits all set of PJs you make it out to be.

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  20. Sponge says: 20

    Can’t these fatwas be considered hate crimes, especially since desecrating a koran seems to be nowadays? Throw the imams in prison and let them wear some baggy pants for awhile.

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  21. DrJohn says: 21

    @Mata

    Wow… “two Shariah’s”?

    Two Shariahs? Sure, why not?

    I have long said that there are a million Islams. Each one is used to suit the needs of the individual Imam.

    shariah is an immutable, compulsory system that Muslims are obliged to install and the world required to adopt,

    As I was sayin’……

    And I don’t recall ever saying that ALL of Islam is bad. I have said that Islam has a problem, and it sure does. Secular Islam seems just fine.

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  22. MataHarley says: 22

    drjohn: And I don’t recall ever saying that ALL of Islam is bad. I have said that Islam has a problem, and it sure does. Secular Islam seems just fine.

    Ya seem a bit young to have memory problems, john… LOL

    In your guest reader post just a few days ago, you were channeling Andrew McCarthy saying that the “fantasy Islam” is the not the Islam of reality. Oddly enough, McCarthy is one on the panel of the same Center for Security Policy’s report that clearly states that “fantasy Islam” does indeed exist – and that the Shariah of most Muslims is “…not a corpus to be imposed on the life of a pluralistic society.” Meaning, it is indeed separated from the State and only imposed for a Muslim’s personal conduct. You know, that Shariah and Islam that you said in your same reader post that “doesn’t exist.”

    But you, yet again, pull out the phrase that pertains to the bad guys of Islam’s Shariah to emphasize while ignoring the reality that it’s not embraced by the majority of the Muslim world. There is no disagreement that we are at war with jihad movements who seek to implement their caliphate… or that their particular brand of Shariah is beyond reprehensible.

    The disagreement lies in that too many of you see this in every and all Muslims because you say any acceptable brand of Islam doesn’t exist. The beauty of the US is that our freedoms allow for things that you, as an individual, may not want to accept if it is not violating our laws and the rights of others. The Constitution exists to protect the rights of those who’s beliefs you disagree with, and do not accept.

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  23. Wordsmith says: 23

    @Smorgasbord #13:

    @Wordsmith: #12 I had to look up who Robert Spencer was because I had never heard of him. I have formed my opinion of Islam through many conservative blogs and talking with other people. I have said that I am one who can be convinced of anything if I am given enough evidence.

    And you’ve been “given enough evidence” by reading those “conservative blogs”, undoubtedly influenced a great deal by the likes of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller (You linked to Atlas Shrugged; ever visit Jihad Watch? Another conservative fave; if you don’t directly visit Jihad Watch but visit “many conservative blogs”, I’m sure you’re indirectly being influenced by his research and writings). When I mention Spencer in this context, I’m merely using him as my “poster child”, as one of the faces leading the charges on all things evil about Islam. Not all things he’s written is bad or wrong; but it creates a distorted picture when it’s non-stop, unrelenting 24-7 Islam-bashing.

    I just read another article where a school class was taken to a mosque to learn about architecture only to find out they were being taught about Islam.

    Uh…yeah, I know….it’s all over the conservative airwaves, radar screen, and blogosphere. :wink:

    Keep in mind that the Muslims are taught that it is OK to lie under certain circumstances

    What are those circumstances, Smorgasbord? And is this a practice common amongst all Muslims?

    and that it is OK to kill other Muslims in the process of killing the infidels.

    Can you source this? Are you speaking of takfir? The writings of Ibn Taymiyyah? Because it’s only through the writings of Tamiyyah- and the interpretation of his writings by the likes of Abu Hajer- that Zawahiri and company could find Islamic justification for the killing of Muslims and innocent women and children.

    The problem of course was that ibn Taymiyyah represented a narrow view of Islamic jurisprudence. His fatwa was designed to condemn Christians and Jews due to the crusades and label the Mongols (who had embraced Islam) as apostates to further the ambitions of the Mameluke rulers of Egypt, who were locked in a titanic struggle with the Mongols over control of the Levant. Nevertheless Azzam, Bin Laden, and Zawahiri quote ibn Taymiyyah as if it were orthodoxy and not opinion.

    smorgasbord:

    I don’t understand why you are so concerned about convincing me that Islam isn’t a danger to the USA when I know it is.

    I’m saying that your understanding of Islam isn’t a “one-size fits all” practice. What you embrace as being Islam is the Islam of al Qaeda, takfiris, Qutbists, salafis, wahhabis, Khomeinites, the Taliban, and other puritanical fundamentalists.

    They are trying to make us change our laws to fit theirs just like they are doing in Europe.

    And who is “they”?

    Do you think we should have to change our laws so that they can wear their required clothing, pray five times a day on employer time, let them decide what punishment will be handed out to members even if it contradicts Federal or state laws?

    Nope.

    We are even building a memorial to the terrorists of Flight 93 in Shanksville PA,

    Really?! News to me. :wink:

    The four terrorist who hijacked the plane are listed with the other passengers and crew. The hijackers even get their own inscribed memorial blocks at the memorial, it is shaped like the Islam crescent and star, and it points to Mecca.

    Shameful and disgusting. :-?

    Just how far will you let them go before you will admit that they want to change the USA to their laws, not adjust to ours?

    Describe “they”.

    Never even bothered to address any of my questions to you in my previous comment, did you?

    ReplyReply
  24. Wordsmith says: 24

    @John:

    We are offering $500 dollars for the most outrageous image of Muhammad and then that image will be sold on one of our t-shirts

    My winning “outrageous” entry.

    You can write out a check to the Flopping Aces fundraiser donation box. And can I have a free t-shirt thrown in as well?

    Thank you.

    ReplyReply
  25. Smorgasbord says: 25

    @Wordsmith: #23 We have gone through all of this before and I am guessing the readers are loosing interest in our disagreements. I don’t comment much on what you say because it is the same as it has been from the start: We disagree on things that neither one of us will change our minds on.

    Really?! News to me.

    I live in Pennsylvania, so I was interested when I started reading about the Flight 93 Memorial being designed in the shape of the Islamic crescent and star. Since then I have been reading many stories about how so many things about it fit the Islamic design. I did an Internet search and picked two web sights at random that told about the memorial.

    There have been several demonstrations at the Flight 93 Memorial. The designer changed the design, but not by much, and it still looks like the Islamic symbol, and it still points to Mecca, and it still will put the hijacker’s names on the memorial.

    There was a demonstration there on 9-11. I had to decide whether to go to Washington DC or the Flight 93 Memorial. I chose to go to DC because I felt it was more important for me to be there and add my mass to the count.

    I really don’t want to discuss this any more. I agree with your right to form your own opinion even if it isn’t the same opinion I came up with. I ask that you do the same for me.

    I will leave the discussion with the suggestion I have made many times: The Muslims who don’t believe in the violent parts of the Koran should break away and form their own branch of Islam.

    ReplyReply
  26. SMORGASBORD: hi, YES they should collectivly be there to expose those bullys who
    like to give death threath to AMERICANS; WHY is it that only the MILITARY have to fight them,
    realy, when you figure all this mess: that war should be fought by MUSLIMS against their ENNEMIES. AND only than they should have the AMERICANS support along with
    THE free COUNTRYS’S help, no NATO involvment needed,which are not to be thrusted.

    ReplyReply
  27. Smorgasbord says: 27

    @ilovebeeswarzone: #26 According to the Koran all non-Muslims are infidels (the enemy) and should be killed. If the Muslims live by ALL of the Koran, then eventually they will be fighting the whole world.

    It is our war in the sense that they attacked us on 9-11 at the World Trade Center. What surprised me is that most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

    ReplyReply
  28. Nan G says: 28

    Quibbling over vague definitions is all beside the point.

    Ibn Warraq recently clarified Islam in a new way (for me, anyway)…..

    I like to make a distinction that I actually owe to Bernard Lewis; oddly enough, Lewis, to my knowledge, has never made use of it.

    It’s a very useful distinction that he made between Islam One, Two, and Three.

    Islam One is what’s in the Koran, what the Prophet Mohammed did and enjoyed.

    Islam Two is the sharia and the theological construct that we call Islam, as developed by the theologians over the centuries.

    Islam Three is Islamic civilization, which is what Muslims actually did do as opposed to what they should have done, what actually happened in Islamic history.

    Often Islam Three—that is, Islamic civilization—was far more tolerant than what Islam One and Two demanded. For example, until very recently, Islamic society (Islam Three) was far more tolerant about homosexuality than the West was, whereas Islam One and Islam Two more firmly condemned it. There are several ambiguous passages in the Koran, but certainly Islam Two, the sharia, condemns homosexuality.

    ReplyReply
  29. A_Nonny_Mouse says: 29

    “Where are the moderates they tell me really do exist?”

    ===============================

    I’m {pretty} sure that some DO exist.

    And I’m VERY sure they’re more afraid of the Enforcement Branch of the Religion of Blowing Things Up than they are of bloggers wondering “So– where do you suppose some of these ‘the overwhelming majority of Muslims are moderates’ can be found? We don’t even see an Underwhelming Minority. Hello? Anybody?”

    ReplyReply
  30. Nan G says: 30

    There’s been a tally: 14 people have died (all of them Muslims) because of riots instigated by charismatic imams regarding the burning of Korans by a US minister…..who did NOT even burn Korans!

    As to this Draw Mohammad day, I have not read of a tally of deaths over riots about it.

    But over 300 mostly Muslims (a priest, a nun and a few other non-Muslims were among the dead) died because charismatic imams roused their mobs of Muslims over the issue of cartoons of Mohammad supposedly all drawn by Danish artists.

    Whose fault is it?
    Who has blood on his hands?

    If you believe that humans have free will, you MUST blame the rioters for the deaths they caused.

    Are Muslims higher than animals?
    If you tease a tiger (like some drunk young men did in CA) and it gets out of its cage and kills you, it is YOUR fault.
    The animal is just a beast.
    But, if you believe humans are not mere beasts, they must bear responsibility for their actions.

    ReplyReply
  31. Nan G: hi, very well said, you make a lot of sense in your comment, bye

    ReplyReply
  32. Wordsmith says: 32

    @Smorgasbord #25:

    I don’t comment much on what you say because it is the same as it has been from the start: We disagree on things that neither one of us will change our minds on.

    How do you know this? Maybe you’ve already shut off from looking at other narratives to the one you know (or gravitate toward); but I’m open to changing my mind (back). After 9/11, I’d say my reading of the Koran and related literature that helped to “interpret/shape” it for me, as well as Islamic history and “culture”….it all made me think more along the lines of where you’re at now: Islam says “kill or convert infidels” and such. Well…in the last couple of years, I’ve moved more back toward “the center” in regards to it. I’m not as entrenched as you might be led to believe. I still read much of the same anti-Islamic news and columns as you probably do. But I’m also reading “the other side” of it, as well. Some, I admit, is pc garbage that only harms those who are indeed apologists for Islam. But other stuff may have validity.

    The Koran is up for interpretation. A number of Muslims who bother to read the Koran believe the fighting verses were revealed for a specific, historical context, permitting the use of force in self-defense. A number of them believe that war according to Islam (as they see it) is justifiable only in self-defense. Most of the Quranic verses have little to do with fighting and warfare (less than 1%); far more have to do with peace.

    I really don’t want to discuss this any more.

    Then why do you keep responding?

    Whenever you respond, it’s like you never bother to click on the links I provide. And then you just say the same stuff over and over again.

    I agree with your right to form your own opinion even if it isn’t the same opinion I came up with. I ask that you do the same for me.

    Well, I’m not trying a “forced conversion”. :wink:

    It’d just be nice if it sounded like I was discussing things with someone willing to discuss and open to evolve.

    I will leave the discussion with the suggestion I have made many times: The Muslims who don’t believe in the violent parts of the Koran should break away and form their own branch of Islam.

    In a sense, hasn’t this already been going on? Aren’t you still allowing a sizable minority define the faith for the vast majority? For many Islamists, da’wa (missionary work) targets not infidels but other Muslims in the hopes of changing them and bringing them “back to Islam”, as they see and interpret it. They regard majority Muslims to be corrupted by modernity, the West, ignorance of their own faith, failures of morality, etc. I suppose this is a similar view held by infidel scholars. For some reason, they have the same interpretation of Islamic teachings as wahhabis and the global jihad movement.

    @A_Nonny_Mouse #29:

    “Where are the moderates they tell me really do exist?”

    ===============================

    I’m {pretty} sure that some DO exist.

    They are the same ones who are killed on a regular basis by the global jihad movement and the Taliban, and Islamic extremists. They are the ones too busy going about their daily business to involve themselves in political activism. And they are the same ones who do denounce Islamic terrorism, as I’ve provided in my comment #12.

    @Smorgasbord #27:

    @ilovebeeswarzone: #26 According to the Koran all non-Muslims are infidels (the enemy) and should be killed. If the Muslims live by ALL of the Koran, then eventually they will be fighting the whole world.

    Is this all the Koran says? It’s filled with “contradictory” verses. Others who don’t embrace jihadism and wahhibism, and the Taliban, and al Qaeda, and Ahmadinejad’s vision of the Hidden Imam, etc. will argue that the Koran instructs Muslims to be tolerant of people who don’t believe in Islam or God. That Islam doesn’t dictate that only Muslims will go to Heaven; that the Koran forbids discourtesy to Jews and Christians; that the message they learn from the Koran is one of forgiveness, mercy, peace, and tolerance. (There are chapters and verses that back these up; and if you tell me later verses abrogate the supposed earlier peaceful verses, Islamic scholars will argue that this is wrongful interpretation, pushed by a few earlier Islamic scholars (the kind favored by Islamic extremists and puritanical fundamentalists). My understanding is also:

    that the surahs are arranged by length and that scholars have tried to arrange them chronologically, but have trouble doing so without splitting apart some of the surahs.

    If some of this is based upon pc-reading/interpreting/sugar-coating, then isn’t that the “reform” you’re asking for, smorgasbord?

    ReplyReply
  33. DrJohn says: 33

    @Mata

    Not buying. McCarthy is still right.

    The fatwa remains on Molly Norris. All I hear are crickets chirping.

    ReplyReply
  34. Nan G says: 34

    Dr. John, Al Gore said, of the Buddhist temple get together where he collected so much cash while drinking tea and going to the boy’s room,” There is No Legal Controlling Authority.”

    That rule certainly applies in Islam.

    There is no Pope who could call off the dogs issuing fatwas.

    Even when a ”leader” comes to the table with Israel’s head and Obama he really cannot hold other factions to his agreement.
    Heck, he can’t even hold his own faction’s members to his agreement!

    One imam might be a peaceful guy, the next Mosque over might be led by a firebrand.

    I think 40 men wrote the 66 books in the Bible over 1500 years, so the fact that people find internal differences is almost to be expected.

    But the Koran was written by only one guy, all within a space of one lifetime.
    The Koran’s internal inconsistencies speak to the writer facing different circumstances in his quest to keep an army together.

    The Koran does speak of abrogation of older verses.
    And yes, the peaceful verses were all abrogated by the later chapters on war.
    Just as verses that spoke about moderation in drinking alcohol were abrogated by later verses against drinking it at all.

    Surah 2:106:

    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

    Surah 13:39:

    Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

    Surah 16:101

    When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.

    ReplyReply

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