Rahmat Gul/Associated Press
The fire became lit even before the first match was ever struck; It’s too late for the media to turn off the gas pump once they fueled the story. Irregardless of what Terry Jones plans to do tomorrow, the Islamists who are in a perpetual state of rage are already lit up. It doesn’t matter that the President, State Department officials, Petraeus and other U.S. military leaders, politicians like Sarah Palin, or media talking heads say or do, the damage is done. Americans are all lumped together. It doesn’t matter to Islamic Rage Boy that many of the Muslim protesters around the world are joined in chorus by world leaders and many Americans in condemning the Pastor and his small congregation.
And for fans of Pastor Jones and wannabe copycats who salivate over media coverage of the “publicity stunt”, there are already copycat burners threatening to take up the torch. The State Department has issued travel warnings. The FBI is paying attention. INTERPOL is concerned. One person has already been killed, others wounded. Insurgents who are fighting our troops are taking advantage of this propaganda bonanza:
Insurgents have reportedly handed out pamphlets in some areas of Afghanistan comparing the Quran burning to Draw Muhammad Day earlier this year, and a Pakistani Taliban commander in South Waziristan said his group is telling people the planned Quran burning is on par with drone strikes (ABC, Newsweek). Thousands of Afghans hurled rocks at a small NATO base in the northeastern province of Badakhshan in protest, and according to the head of UNAMA Staffan de Mistura the country-wide protests could delay Afghan parliamentary elections, scheduled for September 18 (AFP, AP, Reuters, Tolo).
As Old Trooper said, “Stupid shit has consequences“.
And as far as those who are being dismissive of Petraeus, saying the troops are already in danger just by being in theater, or because of RoE, you’re not making their job any easier or safer by supporting the Pastor.
Here are a couple of comments by way of BlackFive:
“So the Jackass in Florida is all safe and sound in his nice warm home not realizing the shit storm he stirred up. Well let me enlighten you; simple logistics patrol turn into pote…ntially deadly situation. our Patrol encountered a mob of angry protesters of about 600 yes 600, who blocked the only passible MSR on our route.
People threw massive rocks at the vehicles targeting the gunners, weapon systems and other necessary equipment. Our lives were truly endangered at that time. Not ONE single soldier within our patrol fired a single round from his weapon, even though their lives were in jeaopordy. I’ m proud of my men by showing tremendous restrait in such a hostile environment.
So Mr.Preacher man I have several words for you, next time you want to experss you opinions do us all a favor and keep them to yourself. The rights you have are given to you because of the men over here putting their lives on the line each and everyday. I hope one day I get to meet you and show you my true feelings toward you. Thanks Jackass!!!!”
“Burning the Koran is going to fuck us all up over here. REALLY bad idea. Unless what you’re trying to do is cause a mess. Best thing you can do for us is snipe the first bastard who tries to light one and be prepared to keep shooting them until the inbreds get the idea of cause and effect. Otherwise, be prepared for some serious shit that we over here seriously don’t need. Not kidding.
And yes, the Afghans are aware and waiting to see what happens. No, they are not happy. Yes, it does matter. No, I’m not kidding and I’ve not gone native. All humor aside, it is important and not a single person is going to do anything to stop those mindless fucks from costing lives. My honest appraisal is that it will cost lives and turn people who take this very seriously against us. Needlessly.”
Yes, Islam has a rage problem. Or, at most, a significant minority of its populace does. This was predictable.
Of what good is gained from intentionally provoking the anger, though?
Some just enjoy throwing gasoline onto fires; kicking over anthills and stirring a hornet’s nest; and some like the attention and the publicity.
But what of the consequences?
The pastor is internationally famous now. He’s happy. So very happy. I notice that on TV they only show him from the waist up.
Honestly. We need to cower. We need to live so that we don’t piss off some Muslim somewhere. We need to be a state of perpetual fear of Islam being offended.
I don’t think Jones ought to burn that Qur’an but goddam it they’re all fired up even before an event takes place?
Jesus Christ.
If nothing else, Jones has shown what lies just under the surface of this “peaceful” and “tolerant” religion.
50 people were murdered at the freaking rumor of a Qur’an desecration at Gitmo.
Islam has a problem. Not us.
You can burn my damned flag in anticipation of something going down? If that’s not an effort at intimidation, nothing is.
So, to answer your question- what good is gained?
We see what it’s really all about. Muslims all around the world are making threats and no Muslim leaders are speaking out to quell the anger, asking for calm. No one is saying “gee, it’s just one guy.” No one is saying “You can’t judge all Americans by the actions of a few” like I hear here all the time.
What does Feisal Rauf say?
Does he say “I hope that Muslims will not become violent over this”?
Why, no!
Does he say “I implore Muslims not to resort to violence”?
Again, that would be no. I don’t think I’ve heard that at all from anyone.
Search “Muslim leaders ask for calm” or “Rauf asks for calm”
Good luck.
Enough.
I am getting too damned angry.
The blood of our troops is now on the hands of those who supported this sanctimonious, publicity seeking, perverted bastard in Florida; you can scrub your hands till Hell freezes over and hide behind the First Amendment, but the Blood Will Still Be There. You wont live long enough to wash away that blood while you live in the temporary safety of your tract houses and put our brave young patriots at grave risks with your empty and silly bravado, that did nothing but enrage a volatile group of people for whom life is not so valuable and the thought of killing an American soldier is now the single biggest drive of people who were not involved previously.
Every time you wash your hands at night, every time you take a shower, get caught in the rain or turn on the garden hose; the water you use will be insignificant to the blood of American patriots that you have helped cause to drain on foreign soil. Feel their blood run over your body for they will never feel anything again. May those feelings stay with you the rest of your life!
If I am out of line I can shut down this machine and never open it again, but I am forever in debt to our patriots and our allies!
Where are your “moderate” Muslims now? They could be really helpful in dampening this down. Are they not interested in helping?
Six months after 9/11 someone asked me what I thought about it….when I said we were not killing them fast enough, they looked at me like I was from outer space. Nine years later we are still fucking with them.
This past week has shown what and who they really are. If anyone does not do as they say, they will attack and kill. Until they are either vanquished permanently, or beaten on such a horrific level as to make them believe their efforts are an exercise in futility the fight will continue.
John McCain was probably right…this may be a 100 year war.
Time to get busy dispatching these vermin back to Allah.
@DrJohn: John,
Islam does have an anger management problem. But this is not news! Everyone already knows it. Why rub the lamp and let that Djinni back out of the bottle?
I also hear the whining about “we’re never able to criticize, insult, or offend Islam”; always walking on eggshells around them and being sensitive to their feelings; of being too politically correct all the damn time. BS. We’re constantly criticizing, insulting, and offending.
I watched Muslim leaders locally here in LA asking for calm and saying Pastor Jones is not representative of who we are as Americans. And I linked to Katie Pavlich’s piece, which I agree with.
And for those deeply suspicious of Rauf saying one thing here and another thing overseas, here’s one report of his recent State-funded trip.
I don’t really see the problem here.
He will, at some point, burn a Koran.
Or not.
Either way, his immediate demise is imminent.
He will suffer the fate of Theo Van Gogh.
Or his church will be subjected to a suicide bomb.
Or his home will be destroyed.
Or, perhaps, all three will take place.
And it will be impossible to protect him.
His death will be assured, by fatwa.
Goodbye, Pastor Jones.
You have had your 15 minutes of fame.
Enjoy your time in hell, guy. You have earned it.
Skookum
3
Yes, and its that Womans fault for being raped, because she
wore a short skirtdidn’t wear a burkha…Sorry, had to update it from the America in the 40′s, to Islam today.
Skookum,
We have our first disagreement.
I reject the notion that anyone other than the Islamic agitators will have blood on their hands.
The idea that the offended have the right to assign blame for their actions on those who they feel offended them is not even a slippery slope. It is a undercut overhang with no support and a thousand foot drop. It is a streamer for a parachute.
I disagree with the Church’s plan to burn Korans, but I will defend their right to do so, and to do so without false attribution of blame, just as vehemently as any other free speech activity that I do agree with.
Respectfully
TSgt Ciz
Romeo: I know you wont find a passage, in my hundred thousand plus published words here at FA, that defends Islam. I only have respect for the Muslims who have contributed to our war effort. We wont need to travel to the ME to find White and Black Americans with the same thoughts and actions concerning women.
My first loyalty is to our troops and their safety. I don’t give a damn about a few silly little preachers wanting to make a cowardly statement by burning books or people who live in the middle ages; we are involved in a war, a war that Americans don’t seem to realize is being won with the blood of patriots. Perhaps if we were losing men at a rate equivalent to Iwo Jima or Normandy, people might realize that this is serious business and phony religious men have no right compromising the war effort or putting our troops in further danger. In my view this isn’t the right of expression but an act that directly works against the war effort and is an act that should be prosecuted. If it is so damn important to burn the book to make yourself right with G-d, do it in private and see how G-d rewards you. If you want to get Americans killed to be a “Star” may you whimper and cry while they cut off your head with a dull rusty knife; don’t worry about it, that preacher’s day is coming and he will have one last video to show his courage to the world. The kind of courage he depends on from our troops, so that he can make himself look like a cretin to the world.
As I have previously stated, throwing gasoline on a fire will not put the fire out.
Islamic Nations/Republics are very highly reactive to the Mohammad Cartoons,
burning the Quran or other things that “stir the pot” and serve as recruitment tools for the Radical Element that We are actively fighting in the Middle East. Poking that Hornets Nest with a stick of any size jeopardizes the progress that has been made in Iraq and places Our Troops at risk in AFPAK.
Granted, it was not Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Jews or Catholics that hijacked those Aircraft
on 9.11.01 and caused the death of innocent men, women and children, however it was some murderous bastards that hijacked Islam and committed those heinous acts. They ruthlessly MURDERED about 3,000 folks that day of all Faiths, Colors and that caused me to post phone my retirement from the Army and plan, train and deploy to their HQ in Kandahar and jump from a perfectly good Aircraft to destroy their HQ, kick their asses and chase them into the Kush. That is not on my conscience. It was what I chose of my own free will to do. No apologies offered.
Those that we killed there were Murdering Taliban Bastards that were Oppressing the Citizens of Afghanistan, brutally enforcing Sharia Law and recruiting and training Jihadi types from the Sudan, Algeria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, the Balkans and even some Pakistanis and Euro Types with radical ideas and influence. Those that escaped into Pakistan found refuge there. I was all for increasing US Forces and hot pursuit but we were held back due to political considerations and too few Forces available to finish them all off.
Unfortunately the same Politics are at play and we have too few Forces available to get the job done. NATO is under constraints as well. Your President shorted US by 30,000 Troops in his last reluctant effort to End the War but Not Win It.
The Afghan People have suffered tremendously under Taliban Rule and are of Islamic Faith but not radicals or murdering thugs. Offending Our Allies there is just bone stupid as we need all the friends that we can get there right now. I was a Professional Soldier, not a Crusader or a Diplomat. I followed Orders and as well as Killing Taliban, We brought Humanitarian Aid to some folks that essentially did not have two sticks to rub together or enough clean water, food or even the most rudimentary essentials for basic medical care.
WE were sent to Kill Taliban and destroy their bases and we did that.
That Yokel Preacher in Florida is playing with some very strong anger and emotions and playing some Americans in pulling a cheap publicity stunt on behalf of his Congregation of 30 folks. He is playing You if You support his jackassery. He has never visited AFPAK and is allied with the Fred Phelps crew that disrupted Funerals for Our Honored Dead. He is pulling an ignorantly inspired publicity stunt and does not represent My Christian Faith nor a man of Faith. He is behaving like a man that was not burdened with any amount of Christian Values or the good sense that God gave a mule.
Al Q and the Taliban are in the minority in the Islamic World. Why should we desire to give them recruitment tools?
Let your anger be controlled and don’t allow your emotions to be used to generate more hate here in the US or abroad. You Folks are smarter than that. I strongly oppose Sharia Law in any form and support Our Bill of Rights and Constitution. If you choose to adopt that Yokel Preachers cause we may as well just chuck it all and have Committees of Vigilance dispensing Justice from gun barrels in the middle of the night with flour sack hoods, oiled hemp ropes and lynchings from trees in the town square.
I stand by my comments and Dave Petraeus so let the rock throwing begin.
Wordsmith,
What these idiots are doing is moronic, but that takes a back seat to reacting to the spectre of Islamic violence as a result. There will not be any increase in Islamic violence as a result of this action. This is because they are constantly throwing these homocidal temper tantrums. If it weren’t for this foolishness, there would be some elementary school teacher somewhere who named a hamster Mohamed, or somebody who ate a blt within 200 yards of a picture of an Imam, or teens dancing innocently at a discotech. Where does this behavior end? At what point should the entire civilized world refuse to walk on the eggshells which are Islamic sensibilities?
I agree that burning these books is moronic. Terry Jones, if he had any intelligence would be on a campaign to get Americans to read these ramblings of the maniacle pedophile with over a billion followers. That is another discussion, which has been hashed out adnauseam in this and other forums. We agree on this issue, but for vastly different reasons.
There have been 217 acts of Islamic terror committed so far in 2010, and Terry Jones has yet to burn a single Q’ran. That is an average of 27 per month. How much of Sharia Compliant behavior will we need to employ to lower that level of activity to say 5 acts of terror per month?
@ Skookum, You are correct about that blood. It never goes away,won’t wear of and you never get used to that feeling. You just learn to deal with it in your own fashion.
@ Romeo13, you are quite the wild and wooly buckaroo. I take it you have some anger issues that need some resolution but respect your 1st Amendment Rights. You do not create Order in the World by creating more Disorder.
THEY will use any excuse to show their hate to the FREE world, look at their faces contortions with hate, they are brainwash since many generations, so to achive what their leaders wanted,
AN ARMY of robots with one goal to kill the others who dont have the MARK of the BEAST.
@mathman: I have to admit I agree with you for the most part. I just wonder what price they are going to put on his head?
I think right now we are where our teachers’ union-run schools led us:
There are no winners or losers, only participants of equal weight.
If we all get together and decide as a group to act in such a way as everyone is pleased, we are all happy.
If one is offended all the rest must buckle to his sensibilites.
Who needed the right to free expression, anyway?
The rest of the world seems to get along fine without it.
Obama, in all of his experience with Islam, had he missed the two types of obligations?
Fard Ayn.
Fard Kifayah.
Understand them.
Understand the major difference between them.
Understand that neither Christians nor Jews have anything like the 2nd one.
Then you will always understand why 99% of their total might be so innocent-looking.
Why don’t our innocent, moderate Muslims explain them to us?
Some Muslim demonstrator died because he was in a group that threw stones at NATO troops.
(Like when they throw stones at the devil during their Hajj.)
NATO has not admitted one or more of their troops opened fire at the stone-throwers.
The koran burning was canceled based on an agreement between the minister and an imam.
But the imam says the minister couldn’t understand his words.
Therefore the koran burning might be back on.
I’ll end by reminding people what imam Rauf means when he says the GZ mosque is going up to ”build bridges:”
The chasm between Islam and Jahiliyyah* is great, and a bridge is not to be built across it so that the people on the two sides may mix with each other, but only so that the people of Jahiliyyah may come over to Islam. Sayyid Qutb, Milestones, 263.
*Jahiliyyah = non-Muslim cultures, religions, societies, et al.
I purposely did not comment here… or many other places.. about this subject for the last couple of days, just so I could see how it evolved…
What I see are Americans, condemning other Americans… for being American… all because of the Fear of Islam… and their temper tantrums…
I’ve watched our OWN Government… castigate and condemn this idiot preacher for a wholy Legal action… while not saying anything about the Morality of the Ground Zero Mosque… even when directly asked to do so (President’s Presser today).
Are we to the point, where we are so scared of Islamic anger, that we accuse OTHER Americans of having blood on their hands, for standing up for the same rights as our Founding Fathers fought and died for?
We are constantly told by OUR Government, that we are not at war with Islam… that its just a few militants that we are at war with… and yet ONE Preacher THREATENS to burn a Koran.. and ALL Americans and Christians are tar’d with the same brush?
Does this not show the basic Incompatability of Islam, and the US? If they will go nuts over what we have enshrined as a RIGHT? One or the other is going to have to give… this IS a test of the power of Islamic anger, vs an Americans RIGHT to Free Speech ( no matter how stupid he is in the use of it)….
And sadly, our Government is caving…
@TSgt Ciz: You are a gentleman and a worthy opponent. If we travel back in time to the three great wars The Civil War, WWI, & WWII, in those conflicts, any actions that could have been interpreted as helping the enemy may have been regarded as treason. During the Civil War, such an act might have been dealt with at the end of a rope.
In any case, I know you understand my feelings and I appreciate your view. However, we are not likely to get into a war with people who have the same views of life as us. The Japanese concept of Bushido and the Hitler Youth were shocks to the American Servicemen’s psyche, still they met the challenges and overcame our enemies. We will never understand the Muslin nor will they understand us. They are from a part of history that should have died out centuries ago, in my opinion, yet they are here and like Liberals and Socialists, they are not going away. I don’t like the idea of walking on eggshells to appease them and I am sure our troops hate the concept, but I doubt that they get the once standard two beer daily allotment in the ME. To ask them to observe a decorum and to have Americans at home rub the face of Afghans in pig shit is counter productive to the war effort and is aiding the enemy. The enemy is not the mob, the enemy is Alqada and the stupid little prick in Florida may have already accomplished what Alquada has been trying to accomplish for almost a decade: turn the mob against our troops, and our troops may not have enough ammunition for that type of attack.
I am passionate for the welfare of our troops.
With Respect: Skook
Muslim Uncle Burns 11 yr old Niece For Wearing Lipstick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG3dIjE1zWs&feature=player_embedded
YEAH! RIGHT!…peaceful people…my balls.
@old trooper 2
How interesting… first I’m essentialy accused of having blood on my hands…
Now “I” have anger issues???
And with that, I’ll return you back to your echo chamber…. have fun….
Some soldiers on leave i guess, called into a talk radio show i listen to. Schnitt Show. He said the soldiers want to fight. Want to break all their shit and kill them and leave.
He said we are all in danger anyway , he wants his bullets back, this all needs to flare up out in the open . They stop our actions by crying , don’t stop us from building our church you islamophobe, you racist, whatever. They are using our constitution and the word church to subdue us. A mosque is not a church it is a fort, to train an recruit for Jihad. More than 2,000 forts in the US Now. Read Steve Emerson on counterterrorismblog.org.
Our laws used against us they don’t need to bomb us anymore. Their butts are in the air in the NYC streets and in France during prayer time, Allowed to block traffic, they hire private security to keep people from interfering with them. This is a motion they go through to claim their future property. part of the Caliphate. They claim the world will be theirs and those who don’t convert to islam will be dead.
BLACK FIVE said, I’m so proud, our troops did not fire one shot,
WHY are they there for, IS it a war or protection racket for the corrupt leader?
our troups are require to defend themself, hell yes.
no excuses either
Didn’t Obama come up with a new medal for courageous restraint?
Maybe, if the minister does NOT burn any korans tomorrow he will get one.
LOL!
I do wish Obama would start handing them out to al Qaeda and Taliban members who stop killing from some point on.
Maybe they would be moved to be more peaceable.
Ref photo above – Ma Duece will clear that roadblock in a heartbeat. Leave their hearts and minds for the buzzards.
SKOOKUM our troops are suppose to have ammunitions and air support for any explosif behavior from those who are taking the side of ennemies, and this is a trigger to teach them of what is required to fight,and it wont be the last time it happen, reset the strategy accordingly.
I purchased a koran today. You know, for reading material only. Just wanted to remind everyone of 9-11 tomorrow. 9.95 at barnes and nobel . Everyone should have one.
Soldiers want us to get back to a shooting war. Lets Roll.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Bees, we all wish it were that simple. Unfortunately, we as a nation have been in the habbit lately of sending our service into battle zones with an imbecillic set of engagement rules. Political correctness run amok has replaced military common sense in far too many situations.
There is an interesting piece on how our founding Fathers viewed Islam. http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/no-professor-ahmed-the-founders-were-not-so-fond-of-islam/ It is interesting because some 200 years ago they understood what we were up against. Many on here have shown by their comments that they likewise understand the real threat of Islam–a threat that goes far beyond what some consider extremist views in that religion. I have no doubt that there are many Muslims who are “more tolerant”, “less violent” etc. After all in all of the world’s religions there are those who go along with a religion, but only so far, still holding mostly to their own belief system. Some would say that those who do not fully follow their religion’s doctrines have found a way to interpret for themselves what their particular “holy book” really says in a way to find more tolerance of others. Some on here have said as much toward the “moderate” Muslims. Somehow that doesn’t give me much comfort concerning the basic tenets of the Muslim faith and the writings of the Qua ram, that some have learned to ignore what it says and instead pick out other parts they want.
So do I fear Islam and what they think? –NO Do I alter my behavior because I know what they think? –Yes. I do not purposely try to provoke anyone, therefore when I know something offends another I refrain from doing it in front of them. To me this is simply good manners. I don’t look at it as a trial that I have to go through, or that my rights are being violated. I simply look at it as an opportunity to show a right spirit toward my fellow man. And everyday I am thankful that I can have this freedom of choice in the battlefield of life, because there are those willing to defend my rights on the battlefield of death.
Islam will not stop until they destroy the West – burn the GD Korans.
Delh, thank you, you have captured the essence of my belief system or at least the way I like to view myself. Simple and to the point, well done, well done indeed.
Unlike the moron in Florida, I will never insult a man’s religion or try to provoke someone, but when a push comes to a shove, you better be laced on, because you are gong to get all the rodeo you ever wanted.
Note 1: I opposed the Koran burning because it was stupid, willfully provocative to no visible Christian end, and caused the predictable insanity among the Mad Dog Muslims.
Note 2: Didn’t we used to SHOOT Mad Dogs, instead of trying to appease them?
The first point does not, in any way, negate the second. That foolish preacher has inadvertently proven anew an old fact: Every last one of the Muslims rioting right now was just waiting for an excuse. If it hadn’t been someone burning a Koran, it would have been someone telling stories that they were. Or claiming they were being flushed in Guantanamo. Or someone drawing cartoons of Mohammed. Or any one of a thousand half-arsed stories with sufficient legs. They’re raving madmen, and they will live peaceably with Westerners only as long as it takes for them to find either an excuse or an opportunity to draw their knives.
The soldiers who report that their job has been made more dangerous: I am forced to ponder whether this has merely made it more OBVIOUSLY dangerous. Were these troopers actually in more danger when these maniacs were out yelling and screaming and visibly hostile— or when they were calm, smiling, and behind the soldiers’ turned backs?
Skookum,
Your comparison of WWII, the Civil War, or any other American war, and the repercussions to traitorous actions are an Apples to fire hydrants comparison.
Would you like proof?
Every previous war the US actually hired and maintained full time staff to inflame the fight. We drew characterizations that made the enemy appear inhuman. We called them names, we burned their flags, we vilified every thing about the enemy. We did everything we could to force everyone to choose a side. Snakes hide in the places in between and we wanted to drive them one way or the other. In the previous wars, the Gov and the Military would have lit the fire and provided the fuel. Ultimately, WE DARED THEM TO GET PISSED AT US.
So sorry sir. No sale on the comparison.
The enemy is anyone who would be so incensed as to become violent at the burning of the Koran.
This is effectively the same as any operation to flush out a sniper by drawing fire so we know
where to send ordinance down range.
I still don’t support the act of burning the Koran ONLY because it gratuitous disrespect of people who are not in the fight. And sure, it might create new animosity. Just like the propaganda of old that forced those on the fence to take a side.
Again, with respect. Cause we are on the same side, but with different perspectives.
TSgt Ciz
I am probably a lot older than most of the posters here, and consequently, I have a tendancy to sit back, ponder, and then form an opinion. So here goes……………
I am saddened that some whacko minister is a small Florida town decided to create a firestorm that seems to have international repercussion. I think he is (being only too kind) an idiot. But to claim that the actions of one minister and 50 congregants can cause such a tsunami in the Muslim world, and consequently put our soldiers in even greater harm’s way is to deny reality. This idiotic action on the part of Rev. Jones is only one instance of outrage that Muslims claim is due to the actions of Americans. They also resent our being on Islamic soil, and unless you are willing to pull our troops and personell out of Iran and Afghanistan, along with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, removing all Americans from any Islamic soil, this issue is just another case of the Muslim world looking for a boogy man.
What happens when the next issue presents itself? Islam is anti-gay. What happens when Islam demands that no gay soldier be allowed to serve in the ME theater? Do we cave? Do we violate our own laws to bend to the ideals of Islam in a “go along to git along” PR move? Or perhaps Muslims decide to protest in the streets, burning and murdering along the way, because Massachussets law allows gay marriage? What then?
Or very society is based on our freedom of speech and freedom of expression. So Hollywood makes a movie that is less than complimentary toward Islam. So we ban the movie? Do we create laws that free speech can be regulated if it causes angst in another group? Should we refuse to let idiots like Shabaaz of the New Black Panthers exercise his free speech because his words will encite the KKK to go on a killing spree? Do we ban all books that are not complimentary toward Islam?
We have been handed a bill of goods that says that Islam is a religion of peace. Nothing, if you study the history of Islam, is farther from the truth. All lands, all societies that are currenly Islamic are so because they were conquered by the sword of Islam. Mohammed understood this, and after 13 years of being a peaceful “prophet” he turned to the sword and saw his following flourish as the spoils of war were a great incentive to follow the “prophet”. Bush pushed this senario, and I understand why, but he was wrong.
We cannot, we shall not, cave to uneducated cretins who threated us with death and destruction if we don’t cave to their demands. We can unleash the wrath of hell fire on them. And we can learn. We can understand our enemies, and use their own mentality against them. Suspending our freedom of speech is not going to do it.
I resent that this issue prompted Secretary Gates to personally call Rev. Jones. Gates’ time would have been better spent calling the families of our fallen. He simply contributed to the problem, not help eliminate it. The FBI visited Jones. Will they now visit Shabaaz because some KKK wackos might resort to violence over Shabaaz’s statements? I seriously doubt it.
It seems that every player in this administration has bowed to the opinions of uneducated, 7th century tribals. Is that really how we want to exhibit to the world that Americans react to threats?
retire05 makes a great point.
There is a difference between a real provocation and a pretense to attack.
Gays in the military are on the cusp of being legally in the open.
They have always been there.
My dad made a point to say that one of his fellow Navy crew was gay and also the best at what he did in the Pacific arena during WWII.
Should we go backward about gays serving openly in the military because of the supposed ire it might raise among some Muslims?
What else should we do?
Cover all our women?
Forbid music?
Forbid mixed socializing?
Forbid clean-shaven men?
Forbid sex before marriage?
Forbid women in sports unless fully covered?
It will never end.
Where are the “moderate” Muslims?
Other than in a small enclave in LA?
@ DrJohn, #2:
Most reasonable Americans take a dim view of someone who is inciting a mob to riot. The fact that the mob consists of dim-witted, wrong-thinking, easily excitable people doesn’t reduce the offense, nor does it diminish the responsibility if the mob turns violent, attacks the sheriff and his deputies, burns down the jail, and kills innocent bystanders.
The Florida pastor is flipping matches at an obvious powder keg. He’s endangering good people abroad while doing it from the safety of home. That meets my own definition of a total jackass.
The cat is out of the bag and there is nothing we can do except delay the inevitable. Burning books, especially a religious tome such as the Qu’ran is detestable and repugnant but it is LEGAL in the U.S.A.To burn any book or item as a political statement within local fire regulations.
Sure, we can Violate this individuals Constitutionally protected right to do so in deference to the dictates of the largely illiterate Muslim Masses world wide. But there will be copy cat Qu’ran burners and the match will be lit any way regardless.
We should get out of Af-Pak A.S.A.P. Our brave warriors are hamstrung by the R.O.E. that proscribe any hope of victory. Only the guaranteed increase in flag draped coffins returning home for their last trip. Under current conditions we are going to leave the country in chaos no matter what strategy our Military has short of all out war. We are fighting with rules that only Liberal anti-war academics can feel comfortable with while they drink their Chablis and eat their Brie, discussing the Socialist agenda they have planned for this great Nation.
Face facts on the ground. These people will find any excuse to hate us for all of our accomplishments.They are relentless in their objectives and the will be no won “hearts and minds” no matter what we do or say. This entire region used to have many Christian and Jewish and Bahai, Hindu, Buddhist and other faiths living there but all have left over the last 100 years due to persecution and taxation. The Educated classes flee as soon as they can and all you have left is people who only know one book, the Qu’ran. Their true colors come out over an event like this.
Just as a drunk says what he is really thinking with out inhibitions, those drunk with religious extremism express what they really think when imbibed with these calls to hate from their Imams.
There is no current “solution”, only separation.
Best wishes to all.
Greg, you reminded me about something important.
Who is doing the incitement?
Do you remember when the Danish cartoons were first published?
They were reprinted in an Egyptian daily.
BUT nothing happened.
Not for 3 months!
Only after a firebrand imam added 3 more fake Danish cartoons (and they were egregious!)
and took them on the road to mosque after mosque whipping up the hoards of, as you put it, dim-witted, wrong-thinking, easily excitable people, did the rioting begin.
Yes, it was 3 months after the original publication.
And it took 3 phony, horrid, in two cases pornographic additions, before riots got underway.
So, very good point, Greg.
Well now I guess we see the truth…Perhaps if we as Americans started blowing muslims up or burning flags of Saudi arabia and threatening mass violence against ANY muslim in the world, maybe then the GZ mosque builder would be less likely to build it? What this is showing the world is that the most violent wins. IF you kill enough folks in the name of your beliefs, then you hold power. Mmm..Maybe the Muslims are on to something. Christians must start being overly sensitive, and kill everyone that doesn’t agree with them…
Just as I read these comments from Black Five, I also heard callers on Radio shows from the theater of combat saying this maybe “Chum” it may make their job easier, by flushing the idiots out in the open.
IF we decide to cower behind the couch and allow these violent thugs to intimidate us, we lose. Not immediately of course, but over time we lose. OR it costs many more lives int he future.
Chamberlain would be proud of the appeasement.
I asked friends I have in Afghanistan if they were worried about this and they stated that in all the fire fights they have been in they didn’t think this would change how badly the insurgants wanted to kill them.
TSgt Ciz: Yes, you are right, I have seen the posters from both World Wars, they were not done by independent artists as a pure expression of art. I am sure journalists were also involved in the effort. The comparisons were weak in that respect.
This is a different kind of war. Like Indo China we are trying to win over a civilian population, a peasantry that is illiterate, emotional, and fundamentalist Muslims. ( I have never been there) To us it seems absurd that one man, a relative failure in life can unleash this provocation on America.
During WWII Walt Disney had one of his song writers create a song for a Donald Duck film. It was a parody on Hitler, and not very flattering. There was also another song, Hitler Has Only One Ball that went around the allied nations. It also was not very flattering. You see, at one time, this nation was not worried about insulting our enemies. In fact, we poked them in the eye at every opportunity.
Now we are more concerned with making them like us than we are with making them dead. News Flash: it doesn’t work. These people we are fighting are stuck in a 7th century mentality and there is no hope they will ever emerged from that mindset in our lifetimes.
I remember talking with a friend who was one of the first forces sent to Afghanistan. He was almost ready to retire from the TxNG, but he was a skilled sniper, and was ordered to deploy almost immediately. He kept a diary for his wife and new-born baby girl in the event he should be killed, but when he came back, he was reluctant to let his wife read it. But she did, and what he wrote shocked both her, and me. He spoke of how the Afghani tribemen were so backward, almost none of them educated, and were simply all war-lord wannabes. He also spoke of their “religious” beliefs. I have a grandson he was crazy about and he wrote in his diary about that grandson, and how he was glad that he would never have to grow up the way little boys in Afghanistan do. He wrote: “When I got here the guys would talk about how they would like to turn Osama bin Laden into a woman when we get him. From what I see, we should turn him into a little boy.” I will leave the reason up to your imagination.
This is the enemy we are dealing with. The use of modern technology (computers, etc) are only for the purpose of jihad. But then, we all know that jihad is really just a personal journey for living a religious life, right? That is what we have been told. Surely our D.C. elites, and their comrades in the media, would not lie to us.
We cannot win over an enemy we are will to appease.
Kudos, Delh. Your comment deserves to be a “signature”!
Because one exercises common sense restraint from the desire to “na naa nanaaa naaaaa”, and civil courtesy, it does not mean it’s appeasement, nor acceptance. It is simply what Americans have been doing since our founding…. learning to leave peacefully with our differences. We were famous as a melting pot for doing just that.
And I use the past tense of “were” in the paragraph above very deliberately, because I don’t like what I see lately, and who is taking charge of the “solutions”.
Well there’s a question with very interesting framing, Drjohn. My first reaction is to ask, “how many moderates are necessary to satisfy you, and how quick will you be to say they are committing tagiyya?”.
My second reaction is to wonder how many Muslims do speak against the violence that isn’t covered in the MSM, just so you can add them to “your count”… whatever that number may be? After all, our current a 4th column of government is deplorable as an information conduit.
But mostly, I want to compare “moderate Muslim” voices to “moderate non Muslim” voices.
You demand Muslim moderates speak out loud and clear, and in volumes. Yet have you spoken loud and clear on the Qu’ran bonfire? But of course you have… and you say:
Did you ever once stop to consider that you don’t want to be lumped with the Terry Jones bumf*#ks any more than Muslims want to be constantly lumped by you and others with the jihad movement they are fighting themselves?
And what is burning the Qu’ran but an assault NOT against jihad, but against their very beliefs?
And what do you say in criticism of Jones’ Qu’ran bonfire?
Well gee, congratulations. That’s really interesting that you finally got to that point for Jones, Drjohn. Because that is exactly what Cordoba House is all about… ill-advised, but a Constitutional right to build as a property owner when you have met all legal requirements for the local planning council.
Now, if you go back and read all your Cordoba House comments, are you as “nonchalant” about their rights – even when you disagree – are you are Terry Jones?
uh… nope
Do you think maybe a few of us notice your hypocrisy?
uh… yup
Obviously you are willing to … as Delh above notes on the money… exercise good manners in disagreement for Terry Jones, but you are not as willing to extend good manners with Muslims and mosques. And not just Cordoba House, Drjohn. You, like many, have been silent on the protests of mosques no where near Ground Zero.
Do you think we will not notice?
Take, for example, your comment above:
You mean like you’re all fired up about Cordoba House when they have NO funding, NO architectural plans, NO backers, and NO constructions crews? What do they have? Just a permit. They don’t even own the entire bloody building, fer heavens sake. But you’re all fired up, and the rhetoric for remedy and protests turns more violent with each passing week. Muslims at a Geller rally, there to support it, had to be rescued from the crowd by police. The TN mosque location was arsoned.
The obvious still lies in front of your (generic “your”, not just Drjohn) noses here… the problem is, and always remains, that conservative America’s perception is that all Muslims are either active, or passive, jihadists. And no laissez faire peaceful relationship with members of Islam will be had when you don’t concentrate on jihad as the enemy, and instead take aggressive public actions to condemn the all of Islam as an enemy worthy of extermination.
And oh, BTW…. for those of you who suffer from ODS. This inflammatory time is not of Obama’s making. Since May of this year, both Spencer and Geller have spear headed the Hate Islam escalation into what has transpired today. And frankly, the DNC should be paying them for their efforts.
Spencer and Geller are unpaid dupes, handing all the fodder the Dems need for midterms campaign strategy. Have you not noticed because you’re so all fired consumed with seeing jihadists behind every American corner, and your wives and daughters in imaginary burqas? The word came down from the WH *not* to campaign on “accomplishments”, and to focus on the negatives of “the party of NO” as a ruling power.
That’s the campaign in a nutshell… why the GOP/conservatives are bad for the nation. Conservatives/GOP/tea partiers are all considered the “party of NO”.
So where are we? GOP candidates campaign on stopping mosques, no where near Ground Zero. Piece of cake target for “anti-Islam” (like Terry Jones) slogans.
Pam Geller headlines at tea party protests and is the face of anti-GZM PLUS anti Staten Island and anything anti-Islam (for years…). This makes the fiscal conservative tea party movement a moving target for “anti-Islam” by association.
Conservatives shoot themselves in the foot since you can visit any conservative blog (including this one) and find the commenters ranting and raving about “all Islam” (not jihad) and mosques *anywhere* – while being benevolent to Terry Jones. Another piece of cake target for “anti-Islam” smear campaigns.
Meanwhile, while all the political right is consumed with Muslim boogiemen behind every corner, and envisioning the US becoming Saudi Arabia, the Obama/Pelosi/Reid socialist agenda marches on… unnoticed and unreported.
How long do you want to be a distracted dog, chasing the frisbee, while your owner buries the meaty bone in your absence?
FOCUS people.
This pastor(?) is just another nutball. Unfortunately, his stupidity puts lives at stake.
Yes, according to our laws, he can do this. He does not care about the consequences.
I could say this about the nutball imnan in New York.
” Lure the enemy will a small advantage;
Sow disorder among the ranks of the enemy, and attack when chaos erupts;
When the enemy exhibits no weak points, fully ready on your own side;
When the enemy is strong, avoid him;
Taunt the enemy into anger;
Feign weakness to create overconfidence in the enemy;
When the enemy needs rest, keep him active;
When the enemy is unified, seek to splinter him.
Attack when he is unprepared, and appear when unexpected. This is the secret to
military success, but because war always changes, you must use it with much
versatility”
–The Art of War
It would draw them out, work them in a frenzy and then the would be easy to spot and kill. General Petraeus lacks the killer instinct needed for battle. WWII killed off over 40 million people and none of the military leaders gave it much thought when it was happening. When the French stood in the way between the French and the Germans in Africa, the U.S. troops killed the French to get to the Germans. Let the enemy live in fear.
@Greg
Doesn’t matter. We in the West don’t respond to every so-called nutball who burns a Bible or blows up Buddha. We don’t threaten violence at everything. The silence is deafening.
They do not respect our freedoms to be stupid.
After all, we elected Obama.
@maty 43
Says the person who has never been shot at, just because they were American, and white… and in the wrong country (and hell, I’m not even a Christian).
You are eloquent… but sadly… wrong…
Please…. go read the Koran, with the understanding that just like Chirstianity…. where the New testement trumped by the Old (for Christians)…. later writing are trumed the earlier… and Moh was a WARLORD at the end of his life….
And understand that they would stop YOU from speaking… that YOU would be half a person… that YOU would have to cover yourself…
One of the really intersting things, is that Feminists… do not oppose the barbaric tradition that is Islam…. at least not openly where it would take a bit of courage…
So… very simply… if I was Islamic… I would tell you to shut up… beacuase you ARE female… and to get under your Bhurkha…
What, @Romeo13… more “I’m gonna be in a burqa” fear mongering from you?
Are all the Iranian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Kuwaiti, Canadian, UK, American women etal in burqas?
Who stopped Shariah in Canada, Romeo? Those Canadian Muslim women who, according to your visions, had no voice and all wear burqas.
Focus on something besides your fantasies and fear mongering that is belied by reality in even Muslim nations today, Romeo. We need conservative voices in the immediate fight against socialism. And it’s really becoming an embarassment that so many conservatives will eagerly chase the frisbee… tongues hanging out… whilst the masters are busy relocating the doghouse before their return.
You might want to reread even some of the FA threads….
Your silence on your own “moderate” voice certainly is deafening.
@ Gregory_Dittman, #45:
I was momentarily wondering if a quote from Conan the Barbarian might be coming up…
BRIDGES TO ISLAM
The chasm between Islam and Jahiliyyah* is great, and a bridge is not to be built across it so that the people on the two sides may mix with each other, but only so that the people of Jahiliyyah may come over to Islam. Sayyid Qutb, Milestones, 263.
I see the points from BlackFive, but where we we draw the line on ceding our free speech? Why is only Islam that can be offended by things and why is ok for them to offend us.
I told someone else, we should through some Bibles and Toras into the fire and the group that makes the loudest squawk gets kicked out.
I am afraid that the only long term solution to the Crazy Islamist is to nuke them back to 700AD and cut off all their funds. They will not stop trying to infiltrate and take over the US by subversion until they are successful, there is no chance in domesticating them leaving extermination or castration but we have allowed them to spread out so both of those are impossible now.
When I was young, I liked kicking the ant hill and then lighting them with gas when they came running out… just thinking aloud.
@Mtat 49
And just WHY are you not worried about it????
Because people like ME have kept that worldview OVER THERE.
Fear mongering??? Please go and READ the F’n Koran. Then go look at parts of Europe…. or say… Turkey? Which was a Christian Country right up until they were CONQUERED? Been to Jersulum??? I have….
If you are not in Fear of their Worldview… and how they wish YOU to live… I can’t help you…
Although… I will protect those like you… because I WILL not allow my DAUGHTER to be forced to live that way…
Irregardless of what Terry Jones… “Irregardless” is not a proper word. Its use detracts an otherwise very good post. “Regardless” is the appropriate word for that sentence.
Does it matter in the big scheme of things? No. But I used “irregardless” for years until a Lt Colonel corrected me during a briefing I was giving. That was embarrassing and it did hurt. But I realized soon after that he had done me a favor. He stopped me from looking an uneducated fool from that day on.
So, in the same spirit I’m passing that piece of advice onto you. You’ll be a better writer and speaker now.
You’re welcome.
Dangerous Dan the Grammar Man
@Skookum #41:
We would never have even heard of Jones if it hadn’t been for the left-wing media stirring up this tempest in a teapot to cause distraction ahead of the November elections. There is no low they will not stoop to in their efforts to depict all conservatives as lunatics, and they do not care about the ramifications this may present to our soldiers and other Americans serving abroad. If anyone will have blood on their hands it will be the MSM — and it won’t be the first time.
@ Toothfairy, #56: “We would never have even heard of Jones if it hadn’t been for the left-wing media stirring up this tempest in a teapot to cause distraction ahead of the November elections.”
Of course, we might also ask what media coverage has worked people like Pastor Jones up into a state. Working up Islamophobia and playing on irrational fears and anger is part of somebody else’s election strategy. Just like working up fear of undocumented immigrants.
Rmow13o… since you seem to deliberately misspell my name time after time, I guess I’ll return the favor… LOL I mean, guy, it’s only four letters. Typing problem perhaps? Or trying to drive home your disrespect for someone who has a differing opinion?
You assume – erroneously, I might add – that I do not “worry” about the global Islamic jihad movements. Rather absurd considering my author post history here, and on my previous blogs. That aside, you and I “worry” about two different things. I worry about jihad and their attacks. You worry about the very presence of Muslims, and some irrational notion that they are attempting to recreate oppression they escape by coming here in the US. The majority of you pepper this with history from the 11th to 13th centuries, assuming that humanity and societies never evolve. Your 300-500BC circa analogies of Turkey have little bearing on the US, our laws and current society. Any attempt to reverse Constitutional rights to conform to the distorted version of Shariah that OBL calls his own would fail. Therefore the jihad movements would have to attempt to seize this country via rebellion/war… and they’d lose big time.
Instead, while you chase imaginary jihad invasions from every Muslim present in the country, our population prefers to be lulled into socialism and promises of not-really-free government services. Your focus and emphasis is, as I will say yet another time, misplaced and misdirected.
No one will ever force me into a burqa since I’m armed, and one of us would die in their attempts.
And one more thing… stop insulting me as some imbecile by telling me to “read the Qu’ran”. I have read more than a goodly portion of it. A searchable version remains on my desktop as well as nine years of other links about Islam, jihad and Qu’ran that have built up into a monster database that’s out of control.
However… as Wordsmith has often noted… it’s placement in many versions is not necessarily chronological. And such a text of doctrine can be misinterpreted the same way a non believer reading the Old and New Testatments will do as they sort their own translations to the various Jewish and Christian demoninations created from the same.
Get real.. you highlight a few excerpts and texts, and you’re an expert?
Nor do I consider myself the Qu’ran expert you apparently do. Frankly, I’ll believe Jasser over you as an expert, and as he has said:
Catch those emphasized phrases? Same Qu’ran, different interpretations… just as many Christrian demoninations.
Lastly, rest assured you have no need to “protect those like me”, Rm13oeo. I can not only protect myself, but have ample personal friends and patriots with clear thinking minds as my friends. What I really want to know is – since you seem hell bent on chasing boogiemen in an entire faith population while ignoring the very real boogiemen in our Oval Office and Congress – just how do I protect my country against those like you? You’re not only off, MIA and chasing frisbees while the owners in the White House are moving your dog house, but you’re making it difficult for those dodging the *REAL* bullets with your rhetoric. You do our military no favors. Worse yet, you simply don’t want to hear that from them since it gets in the way of your phobia.
Dangerous Dan the Grammar Man, please feel free to correct my grammar (almost an archaic word) at any time, without remorse. I actually try to improve my grammar and vocabulary all the time, but I am worried that I might have some deeply ingrained patterns from the past that I am not aware of. Some mistakes like ending a sentence with a preposition are fun and can be called a matter of style. Irregardless is like trying to double up on the essence of a word and is funny when you think about it being one of the more common errors. We are a group of amateurs and we often make mistakes; actually there is rarely a post without an error of some type. I cringe while looking at some of my old posts; hopefully, that means I am improving and not just being overly critical.
Tooth: You illustrate an excellent point.
The Socialists or Obamaviks have much to gain by diverting our attention from their desultory performance and multiple failures. If they can splinter us into separate groups, they stand a better chance of surviving this November. Causing the deaths of American servicemen is only collateral damage to a Socialist, after all, very few of those coffins coming back contain Democrats.
Ahh….. I was wondering whose fault this all was. Thank you, Skookum, for pointing out the obvious fact that it’s Obama’s. But, boy, he obviously ain’t very bright to have orchestrated this clusterf*ck, considering any time he’s forced into a position of attacking Islamaphobia, it only reinforces certain “theories” endlessly propagated by his enemies, such as: he’s a secret Muslim; or (at the very least), he’s sympathetic to terrorists who happen to be Muslims; or, he’s a weak apologist soft on the War on Terror. So, yes, if one were to look at this sorry mess without a perpetual ax to grind, one might have a hard time finding a silver lining for Obama, but I’m glad you did your homework, threw a few catchphrases together (“Obamaviks”, “Socialists”) and figured it all out for us. All it’s missing is several paragraphs of pedantic regurgitation on the classics before the tacked on Obama smear and it could be anything you’ve ever written for this site. Considering this has nothing to do with politics, and is something most American’s regardless of political affiliation might actually come together on, it would have been interesting to see whether you had an original thought that wasn’t dependent on your hateful Obama crutch. He won’t be around forever, you know. Maybe next time.
Tom are you sure you want to admit that the MSM is a propaganda organ for the Liberals or Progressives or Democrats. For it was the quote from Ms Tooth that I was referring to.
I am flattered that you are familiar with my articles, even if it is only to know your enemy and ridicule the source. Pedantic regurgitation from the classics, I like the phrase, sounds like something you might hear from a university student flexing his vocabulary.
It was the first time for me to use the word Obamavik, I liked it at first, but then it wasn’t catchy enough. I thought it might make people think of Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, but there is a syllable missing in the middle of the word. We must keep trying, you never know when something will catch the imagination of the people or at least enrage Progressives. Of course, I should be working more towards Mao’s regime, since his people seem to hold Premier Mao in such high regard.
So you would like to see Americans unite on this issue, but if you see this as a coalition it is a weak one and where do you propose “we” Conservatives come together on this issue to link hands in solidarity with our Liberal Brethern. Should we praise the Reverend Jones for exercising his First Amendment or condemn the action and ask Mr Obama to stop the madness. Where do you stand, Tom?
Most of us have given Mr Obama the opportunity to perform his magic and unite the country; unfortunately, things are not going that well for us or Mr Obama or maybe you have a different perspective on the health of the country and the economy?
Yes, he wont be around forever and that is something we voters will assure in 2012. There is a warm-up election in a few weeks and we will be flexing our power and asserting ourselves at that time. We Conservatives expect to be joined by most independents and many former Democrats, shall we consider you one of us, the issue at hand is opening up so much of the common ground that Mr Obama has failed to find in his nearly two years as president.
Fill us in Tom, I am only a neophyte in political blogging, you seem to have such a command of the political situation and the written word, please enlighten us on your views and opinions. Are you a young Progressive Ideologue or are you a hard bitten card carrying Socialist who hangs out on Conservative blogs because the fare at Liberal blogs in so inane and boring?
Islam is the only religion that allows members in it that believe in killing to solve disagreements.
Here is my post on that. Truthfully, it is a mistake to give an inch to that group.
http://truthandcommonsense.com/2010/09/10/is-islam-the-breath-holding-blue-faced-petulant-child-standing-in-the-middle-of-the-room-holding-a-bomb-and-an-ak/
@Mata…
Sorry if you are “insulted” by a simple typo… Kinda says you are TRYING to be insulted, much like militant Islam…. I’ll be more carefull in the future when I address you… as you are suddenly like my 7th grade english teacher….
As to reading EVERYTHING you have written on this blog… or others??? Thats a rather intersting meme that I have not come accros on other sites…. sorry… I am not that ANAL as to read everything written on a single blog…. written by a single poster…. I have a LIFE….
But I go back to my main point… which is how, can you as a Western woman… with all the Freedoms the West gives you, wish Any inroad of Sharia law, and the restirctions that it would entail on YOU?
Please point out any country, where Sharia law is enforced, where you would even have the freedom to be having this converasiton with me????
You are an eloquent spokesperson for your beliefes… but having spent time in countries where Sharia IS enforced…. Its interesting to me that ANY Western Woman, would have ANYTHING to do with Islam…
And sorry ahead of time if I mispelled anything…. as that apparently dismiisses any rational thought put behind my opinions…. because apparently, its all packaging…. not substance, which is important….
@RHJunior: You are SO right. Like they needed provocation? This is just an excuse to do what they would be doing anyway.
Upon reflection…
I find it intersting that the people who run this site… take many disagreements with their philosphy or beliefs personaly… even to the point of trying to take things as an insult.
I have been accused of being “stupid”…. I have been accused of being insulting because of a typo….
Heck… I’ve been accused of having “blood on my hands”… because I stood with the founding Fathers on Freedom of Speech….
There is debate… where you can rationaly trade opinion… and there are places where invective rules… I would really hate for this to get the rep as one of those places….
A timely article for this discussion.
First, the Pastor has called off the Koran burning so everyone can stop making things worse by the incestent calling him vile names.
Second we have this as an excellent example of exactly why buring the Koran is not so brilliant an idea, yet, not such a demonic thing either.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Old Friend Challenges Bin Laden
September 10, 2010 – 12:58 PM | by: Amy Kellogg
On the anniversary of the 9-11 terror attacks in the United States, a former associate of Osama bin Laden has written a lengthy open letter to the Al Qaeda leader, highly critical of the organization’s actions, and laying out all the negative repercussions of them, on the entire world, both Muslim and non-Muslim.
Noman Benotman, a former Libyan Islamic Fighting Group commander, who fought in the Afghan war against the Soviets alongside Osama bin Laden, writes to the Al Qaeda number one:
“I write to you as a former comrade-in-arms. We fought together. We were ready to die together. Under the banner of Islam, we came to the aid of fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. To this day, I take pride in having fought against the Soviets and the Communists. We were in the right and no enemy could have stood in our way. This is no longer the case. After our victory, we became a curse for the very people we sought to help.”
Ed Husain, Co-Director of the Quilliam Foundation, a well-known counter-extremism think tank in London, says this letter is highly significant.
“This letter has been written by someone who was once a personal guest of Osama bin Laden. In personal and political terms, this document will trouble bin Laden because the letter asks questions that will embarrass al Qaeda and expose its failures. Will bin Laden respond. Time will tell.”
Benotman argues that bin Laden’s actions have brought disrepute upon Muslims. He sees no benefit to the people of Afghanistan—basically that nothing good has come from its being the training ground for the 9-11 attacks.
Bentoman now lives in London. He and his group never embraced the ethic of global jihad, rather they turned to trying to overthrow the Gaddafi regime, and replace it with an Islamic state. Subsequently, the group renounced violence altogether and has been granted amnesty for that by the Libyan government.
Benotman warned bin Laden in Kandahar in 2000 against using violence and attacks outside Afghanistan. In his letter he points out that Taliban leader Mullah Omar asked Bin Laden on several occasions to stop provoking and inviting American attacks on his country, but that bin Laden ignored him.
Benotman, in his letter, asks, “What has the 11th of September brought to the world except mass killings, occupations, destruction, hatred of Muslims, humiliation of Islam, and a tighter grip on the lives of ordinary Muslims by the authoritarian regimes that control Arab and Muslim states? “
He goes on. “Your actions have harmed millions of innocent Muslims and non-Muslims alike. How is this Islam or jihad? For how much longer will al-Qaeda continue to bring shame on Islam, disrupt ordinary Muslims’ lives, and be the cause of global unrest?”
Many people have asked since September 11, 2001, why there haven’t been more credible voices from the Muslim world speaking out against Al Qaeda. Benotman firmly does that in this letter.
“Muslims across the world have rejected your calls for wrongful jihad and the establishment of your so-called ‘Islamic state’ when they witnessed the form this has taken in Iraq. Even the Palestinians consider your ‘help’ to have had negative repercussions on their cause.”
Finally, Benotman brings consequences of the 9-11 attacks right up to the current moment.
“In New York, your un-Islamic actions have caused hurt, loss, pain and anguish to thousands of innocent people and their families. One consequence is that those Muslims seeking to build a House of God in New York are today being compared to Nazis. And now we hear that on the anniversary of your attack, an American preacher is even planning to burn the Koran in revenge!”
Benotman thinks it is time to engage in a debate with bin Laden himself as military interventions have not stopped Al Qaeda in its tracks. He is calling for Al Qaeda to stop its operations for six months to take a good look at itself, to find out really how the rest of the Muslim world sees it, and to seek counsel and guidance from Islamic scholars. Clearly these words are not going to get Al Qaeda fighters to drop their guns on the spot. But there is no apparent harm in an old friend laying out a whole list of informed arguments to Bin Laden. It’s not clear he is listening. But he has been challenged to answer to someone who once fought with him in the trenches.
Read more: http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/09/10/old-friend-challenges-bin-laden/?test=latestnews#ixzz0zCQhyuAF
@TSgt Ciz: You might be interested in this video, then:
fiat justitia, ruat caelum
let justice be done, even though the heavens fall
Wordsmith,
I have no illusions about Islam, believe me.
They are at a tipping point, much as Christianity was about 1,000 yrs ago ago. There are those who use the religion as a political force and a justification for the most heinous acts. And there are those who have come to realize that that is the road to becoming the opposite of everything they claim to love and aspire to be.
I want very much to be sure we support the side that is equivalent to Martin Luther nailing his letters to the church doors.
I think this is quite likely the 21st century version of Islam’s Martin Luther.
Thank You, Delh for the link to what the founding fathers said about Islam.
I can’t believe that professor just blatanly Lied about what they said.
While we must not let the perpetual rage of extremists influence the excercising of our rights and behavior, there is another side to this.
Yes it is a recruiting tool that endangers our troops and civilians, but also consider what this does to those Muslims who stand with us. Pissing off the people on our side or undermining support for what we are trying to do is just beyond foolish.
Yes he has a right to burn Korans. Should he? Nope. There is no upside in such actions.
Oh and Tom, your hypocrisy and projection are staggering. Leftists like yourself spewed hatred towards Bush for 9 (yes nine) years. Even after he was gone you blamed him for things obama and the other leftists in congress had wrought. You want to talk hate? We saw multiple rallys demanding the murder of Bush and the arrest/execution of him for “war crimes”. Yet you actually come here to spew hatred in defense of your messiah and accuse of us of that which you are guilty. You libs are mentally ill.
Eh, they would look for any reason to act stupid.
I say.. whatever… If they wanna destroy there own country over us burning books, well i wonder what it would take to get them to nuke themselves.
Skookum, I disagreed with your post and now I’m your “enemy”? Not only do you have a thin skin, but your choice of word highlights my suspicion that you’re rather intolerant of those who don’t subscribe to your point of view. It’s interesting that by disagreeing with you I’ve shown myself to be somewhere along the ideological spectrum of a “young Progressive Ideologue” to a “hard bitten card carrying Socialist”. You’re not given me much wiggle room. But it’s an instructive comment, for it betrays your black-and-white world view and your necessary fondness for labeling. Which brings us to Mr. Obama. You like hanging labels on him, don’t you? I pointed out that your essays function as a sustained smear campaign upon the man, and a rather effective one judging by the enthusiastic comments they receive. Do you deny this is your intent? You’re a valuable cog in the right wing attack machine – man up and own it. Is that too base a calling for one with literary ambitions and a fondness for Gibbon? I know you’d probably rather be perceived as a philosopher writing philosophical essays when – Bam! – you’re hit with flashes of insight linking historical events and persons to the present (i.e. Obama), typically in an unflattering, but instructive, light. That’s the more romantic way of looking at it.
Might I inquire though if, in fact, you work the other way around? For example, is it possible you decide the smear first and then reverse-engineer the essay? Let’s say you wanted to hint that Obama is a homosexual. Could you google famous homosexuals throughout history, zero in on leaders; zero in further on decadent leaders; zero in further on decadent leaders who, through their own personal moral failings, took an Empire’s into decline? Let’s say, hypothetically, you arrive at Alexander. You could then write an entire essay on how his immoral personal behavior was his fatal flaw. Can we use this lesson from history in the context of the present? Is there anyone we know who fits this pattern, who comes from a swarthy decadent background, who throws a baseball like a girl?
It’s great stuff, Skookum. I mean that. Driven by and filled with hatred, but when judged by their effectiveness as a tool to leverage and consolidate the biases and suspicions of your readers against the President, your essays have few equals.
Seems silly and purposefully provoking to burn a Quran. But, then…so does painting the virgin Mary out of “dung”, burning bibles, doper jesus t-shirts, or putting a crucifix in urine, gov sanctioned abortions, ….all of which are considered just fine here in America. The difference is…nobody is running around telling (warning) people off such behavior because it might create more right wing Christians, or Christian militia recruits, or jewish militants who’ll kill somebody because of what you did.
But, those within Islam …are to be respected?? and their religion respected? demands followed??? Islam has a problem. And their answer to that problem is that everybody else is responsible for what “they” are…and what they do. Don’t provoke the monster, or he’ll rampage…and you’ll create more monsters.
Here in the US…people seem to revel in our secularism. Stick it in your face. I think its juvenile and disrespectful to to ridicule people’s faith/religion, shun them, force their beliefs underground…but we do it everyday here in America just for good measure and nobody seems to have a problem with it…so long as its the christians and jews we do it to. But not the muslims. No..you can’t disrespect “islam”. You might even get a phone call from the state dept if you do!!!
When are we going to to WAKE UP and stop this shit? “Islam” has problems. I think it’s completely fair to point it out and treat them same as every other religion….. and that includes with contempt, skepticism, and even disdain and ridicule….and not be threatened by them, nor run from their threats. I think THEY need to get over it. Freedom “from” religion.
TOM, you look like YOU fit the pattern you so well describe.
@Dc
Great post. Thank you.
Why Skook, you have a stalker. You must have really cut Tom to the quick at some point. He actually insists on pretending you are guilty of what HE is doing. I have seen multiple psychiatrists explain such behavior on his part.
They call it projection, pathological denial of reality, and displacement.
Tom, look in the mirror and then take your Zyprexa.
@Romeo13, you sure are one of those “dish it out but can’t take it types”, eh? While you’re in the “reflecting” mood, you may to “reflect” on your own approach in commentary before claiming you’re the hapless victim of relentless assault. You can ask any of my siblings, and they’ll confirm that from childhood, I return fire with fire. I generally start out quite civil.
Now let’s put a bit of perspective on my brief interaction with you on this thread, shall we? And the reality is that I have never addressed you directly on anything until you decided to be highly insulting in @your comment #48 as a retort to @my comment #43, addressing Delh and Drjohn. In that single comment you managed to say to me… unsolicited… that:
1: I was ignorant of the Qu’ran
2: You promised I’d be wearing a burqa (because another mosque gets built? or what?)
3: I was a feminist with no courage (hang… I’m not even a feminist, but have ample courage)
4: And that if you were a Muslim, you’d tell me to shut up and don my burqa
5: And, of course, I’m completely wrong… but at least eloquent in my ignorance.
But you’re the victim of insults? Chutzpah…
Your comment 54 was particularly snide – a combination of generous and insidious, as you offer to reluctantly protect “people like me”, but only because your fear was for your daughter.
Oh yes… you are the picture of civility, Romeo. And always the “victim”.
And while you’re continuing your leaps to assumptions, you’ll notice I gave you a choice as to whether the two times that you addressed me as “maty” and “mtat” was a typo, or just a continuance of your barrage of condescending insults that ensued in your commentary content. You chose to inflate that as some sort of personal attack.
Again, my conversation with you here was unsolicited. I already have a solid foundation on where you stand on all of Islam after the month long debate. You see, unlike you, I tend to either remember, or get to know, the rabbit I’m dealing with. You’ve been around this blog long enough to know that I’m a Constitutional conservative. You’ve also been around long enough to know I’m a well-researched author in my presentations. I have to assume you know *something* about me after being an author for over two years.
Yet you still choose to project your air of superiority over the dumb woman you think you address.
Instead, you come up with talk about rationally trading opinions, while ignoring your own incendiary commentary.
But enough with the personal. You started, now feel wounded to the quick, so I thought I’d walk you back thru the thread with a new perspective. Now I’d prefer conversations not be that way either. But when you bring it on, rest assured I’ll match you.
INRE your specific questions:
If you’ll remember any of my comments previously about Shariah, you’d find that I’ve repeatedly said I’d oppose any form of Shariah courts or councils that have any power to usurp our laws. If they are, like the Jewish councils and our non Muslim arbitration/mediation agreements, issuing judgment within our laws via councils and panels, and the participants choose to accept their rulings willingly, then it’s difficult for me to argue that a Shariah court or arbitration council on civil matters is much different than a Jewish court or arbitration panel,
That said, I would still oppose it… just as the Canadian Muslim women did. And succeeded.
As for countries where there is Shariah law enforced in some form, and conversations with someone like you, you might try considering Pakistan, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, even the UK. Women in these countries not only are not mandated into only wearing burqas, they have had certainly expressed themselves. Even during the Iran election riots, many voices that were getting thru to the outside world thru Tweets/FB and blogs were women… until the Iranian government started shutting down outside communication indiscriminately.
Add to that, you are unfamiliar with Riverbend… a female Iraqi Muslim blogger who’s voice became famous internationally during the heat of the fight. There’s still Muslim women blogs around today… one dedicated to communicating about women in Islam called http://www.themuslimwoman.org. Here’s an interesting bit about Miss Indonesia Universe 2006, and how more and more Muslim women are ordering bikinis online.
Even Daniel Pipes had an article on the increase of Muslim women in beauty contests. Tho he chose to focus on their wins being affirmative action in intent. The current Miss USA, Rima Fakih from Michigan, is a Muslim woman. Here’s another laugh… she won Detroit’s Stripper 101 contest in 2007… LOL.
Must’a been hard to do wearing a burqa, eh? Oh… not quite.
I’d find it hard to accept she’d be clinging to her faith and bikinis, yet advocating importation of oppression in the US. And apparently, Muslim dominated Indonesia managed to churn out beauty contest winners without stoning or beheading them for their accomplishments.
So it might be construed that your comprehension of Shariah, and the changes within Islam in the western nations, is more limited and rigid than those who actually practice, and are working to reform, Islam. Again, read Jasser’s comment above:
Jasser was most likely referring to the fundamentalist clerics when he commented disdainfully on such “academic elitists”. But it most certainly can be applied to self-annointed infidel Shariah/Qu’ran experts as well.
Dangerous Dan: hi, YES I ‘m sure that you’r right, I sse the word IRREGARDLESS
I see IR and LESS mean the same, SO REGARDLESS is SAME AS IRRREGARD,
BUT IRRREGARD dont seems to be okay to put in a phrase, RIGHT?
bye
It sounds like Barbara Striesand is a potent troll on this site. Whewww! Please, God, don’t let it be!
F Islam.
atti, hi, WE will have to check the trols more. to find her, I have to say I like her songs,
SHE’s done so many good ones. bye
Hard Right,
I love your moniker. Well, I guess debate is beyond the poing when you’re “Hard Right”. Very tough indeed . “Would you like to hear the arguments, Sir?” “No, damn, you, just give me whatever’s most Hard Right! And a glass of sherry.”
Where is Smookum and where’s the Alexander post?
We Americans (all Westerners in general) are supposed to accept the Islamophilic excuse that “It’s just a tiny minority of Muslims who misunderstand that Islam is the Religion of Peace. Really!! So don’t blame all of Islam for what a few extremists do.”
So why isn’t the reverse true? Why isn’t announcing “We’ve got a few whackjobs of our own; so don’t judge the USA (or The West In General) by the actions of an isolated idiot” ALSO sufficient to deflect all this Islamic rage? Hmmm?
/rhetorical question
I DO understand why: it doesn’t suit their narrative.
They NEED to feel attacked, because “an attack on Islam” is justification for ANYTHING THEY CAN MUSTER AGAINST US, according to the super-duper holy scriptures wherein Muslims are the Best of People, and Mohammed is the Perfect Man Worthy of Emulation. Mohammed justified killing people for not submitting to his new religion because THAT was “attacking Allah”; he twisted the sense of things around so that “wanting to be left alone in peace” became the equivalent of declaring war on Islam. His followers do the same thing today.
As soldiers, we were required to respect Islam in Iraq. I was never one to always tow the party line. My thoughts were that if the people I was working with failed to respect me and my religious beliefs, there was no way I could show a respect I did not feel towards their religion.
I used common courtesy as my rule. I also made my thoughts known. I had daily meetings with at least 5-19 Iraqis respected in their communities. At first, they respected be for my rank. As We knew each other better, our respect grew to be mutual for who we were. We found first that when we got to know each other, we could talk about religion. Many are men like we are.
One of the Sheikhs told me that Saddam told the Iraqi people over their television that we would perish in the intense heat of Iraq. This gentleman conceded to me that while Iraqis retreat to their homes between 12:00 to 1600 daily, we continued to work and fight in the harshest heat. They never saw soldiers like us.
This led to our discussion of their daily lives. I learned how much was based on religion and how much was based on having a dictator for a leader. This was hard for them to differentiate. So much of their thoughts were molded for them by both religion as well as their leaders. Slowly, they understood how much they thought were religion was actually the result of some leader’s policy.
Throughout the bleak days of 2004-2006, these men provided intelligence that saved countless lives. They saw a vision of what their country and lives could be with their religion but with different leaders.
They did try to convert me with a smile hidden behind their hands. They told me they could help me get a house on the Tigris river. Since I was single, they even offered to get me 3 wives whose ages totaled less than mine (53 at the time). I knew they were kidding me, but I acted serious. I told them that I really was considering their offer. I would enjoy working with them, but, I never bought shoes with out trying them on first. It took them awhile to understand what I meant. They pretended shock and then we all laughed and patted each other on the back.
Are these moderate Moslems? I do not know. What I do know is that if others allowed, we would have been able to work and live together. We even discussed how funny they would look skiing the Colorado slopes in their man dresses.
During one of our very serious discussions, I talked about what life in the US was like. I told them about our freedoms to include religious freedom. They gathered around like children so they wouldn’t miss a word. Then I told them one of the major difficulties they would face in America. “In America, we put our table cloths on our tables when we eat, not on our head.” We all laughed and laughed at each other and ourselves. I miss my friends in Iraq.
Tom, I had a long day with other people’s animals and now I must see to mine.
I’ve already done a post on Alexander of Macedon, it is in my bibliography. I would not have dwelt on his supposed homosexuality, mainly because he had a great many wives and concubines. I think his theatrical flair and his willingness to dress in ethnic clothing caused resentment among his more dour and conservative Greeks. Thus a rumor mill started, that is still in action and no doubt fueled by the homosexuals. I prefer to deal with facts over supposition. A more contentious and worthy subject is his violation of the military and political standards of over extension.
As far as literary goals, I’ve already been a pro, so there is no magic in being published for me.
Yes, this is a Conservative blog: unless the president has an epiphany and manages to turn around the country with sound fiscal principles, you wont find the typical Obama chants with women who can faint on cue.
Now, I must take care of my four legged friends.
Oh, what is the reference to Gibbon? In Indo China some of the guys liked to eat monkey on a stick and even monkey brain. I will eat Grizzly heart, but carnivores are not really my fare (they stink when you skin them) and certainly not primates. I have never thought of eating Gibbon, that is disgusting.
Randy, that is the best comment I’ve ever seen on this site.
Skookum, can you provide a link to that Alexander essay, because I can’t find it and would love to read it. Thank you in advance.
Randy, Well said and Honestly Spoken.
Thanks Pardner!
Randy,
I would love to hear more of such experiences as you and Old Trooper have had as blogposts, and not just comments buried within posts.
Debate? Oh yes Tom, it’s clear that is what you want.
Again, you prove yourself a hypocrite and a loon.
OLD TROOPER2, hi,
this was a good POST, THANK’S TO Wordsmith.
we haven’t heard from you, for too long. TODAY 21 OF AUGUST 2011
you gave excellent responses here and good advices for all to take seriously,
thank you for that bit of wisdom.
hope to have you here at FLOPPING ACES, and home VERY SOON
BEST TO YOU, AND STAY SAFE.