The Mosque issue isn’t going away and it just got more interesting. Apparently Steve Emerson, Executive Director of The Investigative Project on Terrorism (a large storehouse of archival data and intelligence on Islamic and Middle Eastern terrorist groups), has unearthed hours of audio in which Imam Rauf sounds not so moderate after all. The audio hasn’t been released yet, nor the context, but from the sounds of it….the context won’t matter a whole lot:
Steve Emerson has unearthed 13 hours of audio tape of Imam Rauf. Emerson and his team of investigators has spent the past four weeks going through the newly found material. Rauf is a “radical extremist cleric who cloaks himself in sheep’s clothing.”
Among the shocking revelations Emerson’s team will reveal next week — they found Rauf:
Defending wahhabism – a puritanical version of Islam that governs Saudi Arabia
Calling for the elimination of Israel by claiming a one-nation state, meaning no more Jewish State.
Defending Bin Laden’s violence
Ace takes Obama to task for his support of the Imam and the Mosque:
Remember: You — Obama and the MFM — went out a limb to vouch for this guy, putting the whole of your credibility and judgment behind the proposition that he is a well-meaning, peaceful moderate and you’d have to be crazy to think otherwise.
~~~We know the first, second, and last defense that will be screamed by the left: B-b-but Bush said he was moderate….!
Yeah? And? Bush didn’t stake his political future on the man’s purported “moderation,” either.
Let Me Repeat: Obama and the MFM staked the entirety of their credibility and judgment on the assertion that this was a moderate man interested only in peace, and of course in no way a supporter of terrorism, and anyone who suspected otherwise was an ignorant bigot with a heart full of hatred.
So let’s see. Let’s see.
Let’s see whose judgment was sound and whose judgment was really full of ignorance and hatred — hatred for the concerns of their fellow Americans.
You can hear Emerson on the Bill Bennett show earlier this week:
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Let the fireworks begin.
If that’s true, that will certainly bypass all those pesky Constitutional issues that graw at my craw… i.e. changing laws to prevent Muslims from building, despite being within legal development ordinances.
If he’s proven to be linked to terror, perhaps the Bush finance laws can come into play. However before celebrating, there’s two pesky details….
1: Bush used this same Imam for the same “outreach” overseas efforts. Did they not know if Rauf’s mosque is a terrorist stronghold?
2: Since we haven’t heard Emerson’s evidentiary tapes, and he did this interview almost a week ago, is Rauf’s mosque *not* a terrorist stronghold, and this is another “let’s hype it up and prounounce him guilty in advance in the media” maneuver? After all, we have Mr. Mantra, Hannity, constantly moving on his disinformation campaign – saying that Rauf demands America become Shariah compliant when Rauf has all over his books that America and the Constitution *are* Shariah compliant. And why did Emerson go onto these shows, without backing up his claims with even a few soundbytes? Why hold back the tapes for weeks if what he says is true?
So is this this actual evidence? Or is this twisted hype?
Hey… I’m all for it if real. Bring it on. But if it’s just another rewording to make it sound like he’s a “Hamas supporter”, all you got is media misinformation driving it. And what would be needed is enough legal reason to deny that building from going up to calm some.
Then all that’s left is the problem with the rest who simply hate all of Islam (i.e. Geller, Newt), or those who want to stop mosques everywhere, chase ‘em out of the country, and deny them all Constitutional rights based on prejudice.
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I am a bit confused as to why the tapes are hyped instead of raw data dumped out into the public. Is there audio specialist teams examining these recordings to ensure the person on the tapes is indeed who it is and legal teams examining how to legaly release these recordings? I guess I am used to the gaming culture where materials are dumped onto a forums index or community IRC channel within seconds of acquistion of such data without concern or awareness of the legalities of the data dump.
Yup, Mr. Irons… the media “release” method here is somewhat questionable. Promises, promises? And if media is quick to release military intel via WikiLeaks, why a two week hype, with not so much as even out of context soundbytes to accompany the claims? Also, Emerson is a frequent Fox News guest as one of their regular “consultants”. Why take this to Bill Bennett’s radio show, and then wait for Pamela Geller to pick up on it four days later? Did Fox say “bring us the audio proof, or no dice”?
Head scratcher… something seems somewhat amiss. All we can do is see if they release the tapes, and in what form… severely edited? Or in total?
Could be a language problem. If they are as stated, chances are that they are in arabic…
Who do I trust?
Maybe the last Taliban guy that shot at me and hit me.
Was he a Southern Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, Amish or an Orthodox Hebrew type?
Was he a Scientology type or a Mormon, or a Christian Scientist?
Lets stop this Islamic Tolerance business right now before some folks decide that visiting FA is like a date with my ex-wife. I am tolerant to a point but getting my nose rubbed in notions of tolerance by folks that should know better is not on my agenda.
In this reguard, in the culture I grew up around, such “raw” data almost instantly hits the net on some mIRC chat channel or a private forums index where it is shifts into the forward community that is public and then viraly spreads towards adjacent sites (4chan for example). The Wikileaks scandal over military data was one such example of the “here and now” culture that is the gamer mentality that racks the majority of such forums, so it is exteremely odd as to why such “hard hitting” audio is taking a life time in internet terms to hit the broadcast channels. This is nothing about tollerance towards something, but a highlight in how awkwardly slow this “infromation” is taking considering private business data is daily dumped on priacy channels almost hourly without concern (which I don’t advocate). Hell beta code for Half Life 2 back in 2003 was dumped onto the net faster than the time of “discovery” of these supposed audio files to the radio show annoucement about them.
My assumptions are there are legal issues to examine, voice verification of who is speaking (in this day and age, it is exteremely easy to get voice masking software and even headsets/microphones), and as Suek pointed out that it could take awhile to translate if the audio is not recorded in English. It’s just I do not like how this feels to my gut in how “long” ago the audios were discovered versus their public annoucement.
For all you that like to look to the Supreme Court and its interpretation of the Constitution.. let us not forget that the First Amendment’s free speech clause is subject to limitations if there is a “clear and present danger”. The freedom of religion clause should be no different if a religion is a “clear and present danger”.
Of course we’ll have to see what these audio tapes really reveal before I and several others that are ignorant of Islam move into “I told you so” mode.
Signed…. an Islamophobe
@ Donald Bly: We are a Land of Laws and have several thousand more than the Founding Fathers would have ever approved of.
Are we a Land of Justice or just a Land of excessive Laws and excessive Tolerance and not so much Justice?
When you FA Folks get it figured out please let me know.
BTW, the last six Mosques that I saw in AFPAK looked like a Georgia Gun Show with enough ammunition to win WWII several times over. There was more Composition 3 than soap to wash
every pair of hands and feet in Kandahar or Kabul. That is not Classified info.
Freedom of Religion is pretty keen stuff but Shariah Law is not Constitutional by any stretch of the imagination.
Take Care All!
“told you so” what, Donald Bly? Even if Rauf trained in a Bin Laden camp, does this “prove” that all of Islam is a “clear and present danger” and that all Muslims are enemies? Or would it simply mean that Rauf, himself, was proven an enemy? Naturally, you’ve already made that assessment. But not on any evidence (i.e. Perdana donating to Free Gaza like Carnegie Foundation, or US policies contributed to OBL and Bin Laden like so many of our elected lib/progs have said and believe). Simply because he’s Muslim.
What a joke….
But it would be good news if there was a way to stop Cordoba House within legal parameters… simply because it’s really getting old listening to all the blanket hatred. Oh wait… then there’s the Tennessee mosque, and the NJ mosque. And two in California you can whine about….
Plus maybe we could dispense with all the anecdotes about Muslims in ME countries, and how they must be exactly like Muslims here in the US.
Or perhaps we’ll hear the last of how we’re to be killed and converted, when the millions of Muslims here have neither done massive killing/converting of infidels, nor killed their apostate ex Muslims…. you know, the bunch who are out there protesting mosques along with Geller? Listening to you all, the US streets must be running red with the blood of unconverted infidels for decades to centuries.
And yet not one person here can relate a tale of an American Muslim making the slightest attempt to convert them to Islam. Don’t you think that’s a big missing ingredient to the rhetoric? Behavior of American Muslims doing exactly what you self-proclaimed experts say they should? ooops…. reality bites, eh?
@MataHarley:
Everytime my gr-grandson and I visit the corner gas station together they pick him up and give him a sucker. I’m beginning to suspect that they are getting ready to convert him or are throwing me off guard so I’ll be distracted the day they plant the IED in my car. Never again will I let them give me a bag of chips because they say they appreciate my business. It’s just the small bags, can’t appreciate me all that much or they would be giving me a free fill up.
Probably, but then I doubt any of the posters here are in prison where conversion by Americans is a wholesale proposition.
Neither, I imagine, do the posters here hang around the masjids in Dearborn and other mosques in inner cities destroyed by years of failed social programs, nor around NOI HQ, or any of the other places where “Americans” troll for converts.
You are sorely deluded if, because you don’t see it, you don’t think it is happening.
@A Fine Bunch of Rubens:
That could also mean conversion to…..a number of hardcore gangs. I doubt any of us are converts posting from prison, Curt could probably confirm that for us.
There are a number of neighborhoods I prefer not to hang around or even drive through from the Quad Cities toChicago and into Indiana. Thankfully, none of my friends in our personal melting pot happen to have the violent tendencies we know people in communities across Northern Illinois experience daily. My son sent me two hours out of my way on my last trip to Indiana just to keep me from making a wrong turn because I was making the trip by myself.
Last time my daughter and I drove home from Midway, she took a wrong turn, a young AA man approached our car at a traffic light with a baseball bat, if he meant to scare us he succeeded. We also built a home in a rural town…..with a cluster of loud and mouthy skinheads living in it. Some made negative comments about “the kind” of friends we had and they didn’t appreciate them coming into “their town.” We’ve since moved, they didn’t drive us away either.
We have dear friends that have had their temple fire bombed twice, they bought property next to my cousins home in the country and have to hire armed guards for protection.
We have had Muslim friends since the 80′s, as their sons became of age, they were sent to Bosnia to fight, are back now, married with children and running a string of successful restaurants the parents started with just one dingy little place in a bad neighborhood, to busy to convert anyone.
Also had a Muslim family in our Cub Scout pack, their boys participated in everything, even the pledge.
There are bad people in every race and religion, personally, we’ve always found the good people far outnumber the bad and I believe that includes Muslims.
BTW, got any numbers for the Muslims that are rejecting the “conversions” and moving on to better the lives of their families?
I have had American Muslims attempt to convert me. I also know Americans who have converted [reverted] to Islam.
I’ve had Muslims attempt to convert me in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Egypt, Israel and Thailand as well.
It’s that type of religion. It’s similar to Christianity in that regard.
Quick name a Nation that converted to Islam peacefully or peaceably.
Can ya do it?
Name a nation that converted to Christianity peacefully or peaceably?
There are several.
Islam is not now and has never been a religion that converts the masses through evangelical processes as a primary means of conversion. Historically, conversion to Islam has been violent conquest.
Every country that is Islam is such due to Islamic Armies.
Chrisitanity did not develop that way. Now they became Militantly Messianic over time and gradually shifted away from that as well.
So for all of you Muslim Apologists who do not know your history, pls, read…study…then come back and we’ll speak.
Until then, you’re simply speaking out of ignorance.
I hope this site will publish excepts from this tape. But, in the mean time, I hope everyone will acquaint themselves with Imam Rauf–instead of the negativity about him which has been promoted on this site. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/u-s-sends-muslim-center-imam-to-arab-world-to-promote-religious-tolerance/
@MataHarley:
Emerson has been pretty reliable in the past. He has not been a sensationalist prior to this. The possibility that he is merely seeking his 15 minutes could be stated, but personally, I am betting against that. He made the statement that he is waiting to conclude his investigation prior to releasing the tapes, so let’s wait and see what he has. My popcorn is ready.
Well now, Dawood Khan, you must be engaging in tagiyya – or perhaps posting from the afterlife – since I’ve have been assured here from above reproach infidel scholars that if you do not convert, you must be dead. /sarc
And what is this dogged determination to compare American Muslims to Muslims from other countries? That same school of thought then assumes that all Christians, from country to country, are alike… or all females, or …. Cultural differences, education, conditions vary greatly from America to the middle east countries. It’s an absurd attempt at fear mongering. Maybe those of you who insist that “all Muslims are alike” should read the various studies out, and save yourselves some further embarrassment. To name just a few, i.e.
1: Harvard Kennedy Schools March 2009 report, “Muslim Integration into Western Cultures: Between Origins and Destinations”
2: Pew Research’s May 2007 study, “Muslim Americans: Middle class and mostly mainstream”
3: Woodrow Wilson’s Int’l Ctr for Scholars June 2003 study, “Muslims in the United States; Demography, Beliefs, Institutions”
A Fine Bunch of Rubens, I know many people who have been in prison… not one of them came out a gang member, or a Muslim. But according to the sage scholarly infidels here, we could certainly take care of prison overpopulation by throwing in a few Muslims, who tell us they will kill any who don’t convert. That’ll sure drop the numbers, eh?
Are there some that attempt to convert here and there in the states? Of course…. There’s never a black/white nor absolute statement that can be made (except by all too many of you about Islam in general). But Muslim evangelism in the States is a drop in the bucket compared to Jehovah’s Witness. Then of course there’s that pesky detail about all the ex-Muslim organizations out there, walking around as apostates alive and well. What… no piles of dead ex US Muslims reported in the US news?? Must be a cover up, eh?
This parroted meme is simply beyond “the willing suspension of disbelief”, and a sad attempt to instill unneccesary fear. Global Islamic jihad is to be detested, fought and defeated. But that is not all Muslims.
But thanks to Cordoba House, now Muslims will be able to wander around the States, or even assign a political leaning, to those who have expressed such hate rhetoric to them in blanket religious class warfare. Nice goin’….
Missy… your corner store stories make me fear for you and your grandson’s life! I mean, who knows what could be in those little bags of chips, eh? LOL /sarc
MataHarley, I have to ask. Where did I type that all Muslims were alike. I went back and looked and did not see it.
As such, I assume that you are speaking to some other person.
I’ve lived amongst Muslims. I’ve worked with them. I’ve supervised them. I’ve befriended them. I’ve traveled with them. I’ve performed ablution, and knelt and prayed with them in their Mosques. I’ve ate with them. I’ve danced with them. I’ve attended weddings with them. I’ve been rocketed with them. I’ve hid behind shelter with them. I’ve shared dangers of many kinds with them. I’ve shared dreams and goals with them. I’ve worshipped with them. I’ve discussed religion, philosophy, politics and history and war with them. I’ve stood in a field beside a stream and pissed side by side with them while discussing the weather. I’ve done just about all that a man can do side by side working and living with Muslims. And I’ve done it all across the “Muslim World” from Central Asia to India to Southeast Asia, to the Middle East and Northern Africa.
I’ve met Sufis, Ismaelis, Twelvers, Shi’a, Followers of Ali, Sunni, Wahhabis, Deobandi, etc…
Not one of them were alike.
Just as no two people in the world are alike.
That said, religion is religion. The thing that all of these have in common is Muhhamad, the Qu’ran with it’s Pillars of Faith, the Hadith, Mekkah and her Ka’aba. Each had varying levels of belief and each viewed Islam in their own way. Each viewed the Great Islamic Schism differently. Some were firm believers and some were Muslims simply because they were born in lands wherein Muslim reigned Supreme at their birth. Some were lost from Islam, detached from the Sunna and knew nothing of their religion. Others knew of it and were repulsed by it. And some, like me, were both repulsed and drawn to it.
Now, if you want to discuss something rationally without attempting some odd twist on words that suit your purpose of vilifying others, get with me.
I find it fascinating that in the same breath you accuse someone in a backhanded manner of bigotry while expressing bigotry against that same one. Your superficial knowledge gleaned from reading a few studies is unimpressive. I’d be more impressed had you quoted the short stories of Yusuf Idris or the histories of Arabshah or even the books of Karen Armstrong.
Next time, try your silly immature slight with someone else. Your slant ways insult came out a bit odd when you are expressing disdainful bigotry yourself.
Now, if you wish to converse, I’m willing. If you wish to spout silly epithets and act a child, pls do that bullshit with someone else.
Thanks and DO have a nice day.
The greatest danger of Islam is that it is a religion GREATLY moved by peer pressure.
Read the story of how Shariah was included in the Afghan Constitution.
I have sat in a room full of Muslims. Twenty or so of them. All being irreverent. All carrying on and cursing and talking of drinking and carousing and picking up women. Some speaking about drugs. All discussing the taliban and how they hated the religious system in which they were forced to live.
In walks in one devout person. One “good, uncorrupted” Muslim. Suddenly, everyone in the room was as devout and good a Muslim as was he.
This happened more times than I can count.
Islam is a religion of the Mob.
In America, it should be different. As education levels are higher. That said, American Muslims have done their fair share of terrorism.
The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood al Qutb studied in America. His time in America pushed him towards a more deliberate observance of Islam and towards a more strict interpretation.
Islam , in it’s current form, can not peaceably co-exist with other cultures. With the notable exception of the Sufi and Ismaeli sects which are comparatively small and who al Qaeda, the Wahhabis and the Taliban have sworn to destroy.
Over time, there may develop a new Islam just as occurred with Sufism and the Shi’a and the Ismaeli developed.
The Ismaelis have lived in the West for a long time and have assimilated in fine manner. They seek education and they seek to improve the lot of their fellow Ismaeli. Read about Agha Khan and the Agha Khan Foundation. There is real power there.
The Ismaeli are Shi’a, though. The Shi’a, with the notable exception of Khomeinis Revolution, have historically been persecuted by the larger Sunni and have been more internally focused.
The problems stem mostly from within the Sunni house. Specifically, the followers of al Wahhab. The greatest danger being that Saudi Arabia is officially Wahhabist and are spreading their brand of violent Islam all over the globe. The rise of the Taliban can be traced straight back to Saudi funded Wahhabist Mosques, Madrassahs and other creations in the NWFP and the FATA.
The Ground Zero mosque is a gross error in judgment by this man and his wife. Their stubborn attitude in the face of opposition is distinctly unSufi.
That said, if the Mosque is not funded by Revolutionary Iran or Wahhabist Saudi Arabia, I have no problem with it.
If, however, it is funded by Revolutionary Iran or Wahhabist Saudi Arabia, I am against it.
@Mataharley…. What Dawood Khan said!
To the latter, I was including many others here on FA that have made such statements over the course of this debate since June. Most especially Donald Bly – who gave us a little rewrite of the 1st Amendment, and labeled Muslims exempt from the 1st Amendment because the religion was “clear and present danger”. So the fact he, in particular, tries to ride your higher road coattails is downright hilarious.
Perhaps you’ve missed the tone of the debate many have set here… including Donald Bly…as documented here only in part. To that, we can add a couple more in recent threads:
I trust you will find these over the top? But according to you, I have “slanted bigotry”. Okay… strange yardstick measure you got there, dude.
To your own comments that triggered my supposed “Muslim apologist, ignorant” response:
In one breath you say you’ve had Muslims trying to convert you… something I have to laugh at since all the infidel experts here say you should be dead for not doing so. You did not regale us with any specifics on those American Muslims you say tried to do so, or how they responded when you were unwilling. Then you leap to the other countries… where I try to point out that American Muslims are not the same as middle east Muslims.
But apparently you already know it all, yes?
Then you come back with a full comment on all your Muslim comrades, friends, etal… all of which seems to belie your last paragraphs to we “Muslim apologists”, as you hypersensitive victim types like to call us when we call you on class warfare, and say we’re simply ignorant of Islam.
Well you must be in fine company, because there are a lot of self professed infidel scholars here, telling us all about Muslims and the Qur’an with their every breath.
All those friends you told us about? They are Islamic or not? If what you say is true, you should be condemning the remarks by so many on these threads (as I’ve linked above) that sweep your friends up into the “all Islam is terrorism” nets. But instead you attack those of us who dare to suggest that not all Muslims are alike, nor terrorists – only for you to turn around and avow that the religion will demand they convert us via violence, and not evangelism?
So are your Muslim friends included in that? Or do they have a “get out of Gitmo and pass Mohammed free” card you issue? Which is it?
Now, if I misunderstood your “generic” comments about how violent and agressive Islam is – and you really only meant to say that violent Islam doesn’t include the friends you know (and whom we did not know about at your comment) – well geez. So sorry. But when you make blanket statements, we can’t know you’ve included your own little, undisclosed caveats.
Oh yes, Dawood… your @latest comment above #18 did nothing to dissuade the argument that you paint Islam with the big brush… i.e.
There is a great reform effort taking place with Muslims… they, however, are not enjoying the support of all too many Americans, as I’ve pointed out here. Instead, if they are reformers, they are engaging in tagiyya. Muslims can’t win with some in this crowd, sez the “Muslim apologist”.
INRE your comments here:
Hate to break it to you, and perhaps it’s because you are entering this conversation so late in it’s length, but that places you squarely in the opinion camp with me, Wordsmith, Aye Chi, Skook, Old Trooper, Curt and a few other of we “muslim apologists”. But I welcome both your clarification and statement. And yes, that grudging support still includes we think it’s a piss poor idea. But if done within the scope of our laws, we are not willing to discriminate because the very development is offensive to us.
ADDED: You can catch up on the very long running debate by reading thru the 29 posts involved on this discussion.
Now, INRE the funding… there is no funding at this time. Which, of course, makes all the accusations and demands for investigations more humorous. In fact, Cordoba House has a long way to go, and funding will not be embarked upon until after their non-profit is set up. That, alone (if it’s not rejected) can take months. Then followed by plans… all before the fundraising is begun in earnest.
Class Warfare?
What Class are Muslims?
What race are Muslims?
Get it straight. I’m getting confused.
Do I hate them because they’re all poor or because they’re all some other race?
Get it right, so I’ll know what I am. Please. I’m so tired of being confused.
There are millions of Muslims out there who don’t care about any of this.
They care only that they can feed and shelter their children or that they can have a family and raise them and keep them secure.
That’s life.
You seem to be sayiing that there is no threat from Islam.
I beg to differ.
Islam itself is not the threat. No more so than Christianity is or was a threat now or in the past. Religions are religions. The people of these two religions are quite diverse.
A threat does come from Islam, though. It is an interpretation of Islam that endangers many on this planet.
Failure to realise that is a mistake.
Wahhabism and it’s relative movements and Revolutionary Iranian Shi’a Islam.
Most Muslim apologist downplay these threats.
The Eastern Roman Empire downplayed the threat from Arabia once. It no longer exists.
The Soviet Union downplayed the threat of Islam and it’s fighters. They no longer exist.
You’ve apparently not befriended a Muslim if you have never had a Muslim attempt to convert you. Every Muslim with whom I have ever developed a relationship, no matter his geographical proximity or location to me, has attempted on some level to convert me. If they believe, they believe it is the right thing to attempt to bring you over. Most will do it for the same reason that Christians attempt to convert me. They do it out of love for a friend and a passion for their faith.
Religion is simply not for me.
I could really care less what any other has said on here. I know what I know, I know what I have experienced. I know what I have seen and felt and breathed.
I’ll ask you the same thing that I asked Bob Merkin.
From whence did Islam spring? How did it grow? How did it come to possess the lands in which it now resides? How did Islam spread? What is the jizya? Who paid it and why? On what side did the Ottomans fight during World War I? On what side did the majority of Muslim tribes and countries fight during World War II? Who attempted to import Hitler’s Final Solution to Jerusalem?
Islam has been a violent religion. As has Christianity. Islam was born of the sword and spread far and wide by the sword. Compare that to early Christianity which spread through faith. Christianity did not become an instrument of State until Constantine hi-jacked it in his bid to become Emperor. Islam began by conquering Mekkah and converting it into a holy city and turning out all of the pagan religions and co-opting the Ka’aba into the Shrine of Allah. Islam then spread by the sword reaching and overtaking Europe, Asia, India, parts of China, Northern Africa, Central Asia and parts of Southeast Asia.
If Islam is not a violent religion then why was it spread exclusively by the sword from 632 CE to the Ottoman Empire.
The State is an Istrument of Islam.
That is a great difference between Islam and the West. Not between Islam and Christianity for if the Roman Catholic Church had their way, all States would be an instrument of their bloody and violent religion as well.
I am no apologist for Christianity as I am no Christian. I claim no religion, though, I attempt to study Buddhism.
My home is the West. Our way of life is superior in many ways. Islam is a drain on the world just as Christianity was for a 1,000 years or so.
Even so, there are good points to Islam.
And Muslims are not exclusively Muslims. That is not the only part of their humanity or their self. There is much more to the Arab than that he is a Muslim. There is much more to an Iranian than that he or she is a Shi’a Muslim. There is much more to an Afghan than that he or she is a Muslim.
That said, when they get to the point of becoming what is known by us in the West as the Taliban, they are no longer any thing more than a monster and the source of their motivation is Islam and strictly Islam.
How can something that was born of the Sword and spread by the sword in a river of blood be anything but violent?
This is something that no apologist has even been able to explain to me.
How can a religion that developed while it’s adherents were at war be anything other than violent. Every conquest that was made during the development of the religion of Islam and the writing of the Hadith was done on horseback on the road to battle, aimed at the conquest of Nations and peoples. Yet, this is not violent.
Explain to me how this religion is not violent.
It’s tantamount to denying the Judaism and it’s Books are not violent. Even though they tell of conquest and battles and massacres.
How is the Old Testament not violent?
If it’s book is not soaked in blood, then no book is soaked in blood.
Born in conquest. Spread in conquest. Not violent. Someone please explain that to me.
Fought the West until the Fall of the Ottoman Empire. We had about a 50 year gap wherein Muslims were so down that they could attack no one of consequence. So they started picking on the Jews in Palastine. And they fought with the Hindus in India.
Starting in the 70s….BOOM! Islam explodes out of the starting gate with Global Terrorism.
The Cold War ends. BOOM! Islam explodes again. Bringing terrorism to new heights.
But Islam is not violent.
It’s just a few of them.
It’s just the few that are in any way in touch with any other culture. lol
Muslim dissidents in the Phillipines, Thailand, Russia, Eastern Europe, Europe, America, China. Muslim wars and genocide in Africa.
But no…Islam is peaceful.
This shit cracks me up. It’s like saying that Christianity was peaceful while the Popes were fighting with the Monarchs of Europe for control of the Continent.
A religion is a reflection primarily of it’s leaders.
Nearly every Muslim country on the planet is “lead” by a Muslim Despot.
But Islam is not violent.
And the Soviets weren’t communist sons of bitches…
Personally, I think it will never be funded.
And if funded, they’ll never get a Union which will have the workers to build it.
____________________________________________________________________
I can go into the whole history of Islam if you wish. I’ve done practically nothing but read about and study it for the past 7 or 8 years. it’s a fascinating history.
And when I say that Islam is a violent religion, I do not necessarily mean that it is a bad thing in my conception. I have a grudging respect and admiration for it.
Though, I would be no part of any religion and especially not one that expects me to submit to some imaginary God creature so that I may become the slave of a mere mortal.
Some of my heroes are Timur the Lame, Saladin, Richard the Lion Hearted, Babur Khan, Genghis Khan and his grandson Kubilai. Those are heroes of the old history. Timur has a special place in my heart as does Genghis as I wish that we would wage war after their manner.
Democracy is of the Mob. Islam is of the Mob. Christianity is of the Mob.
Witness Evangelism.
Witness Plato, Socrates and Aristotle.
Witness the streets of the Islamic World when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammad.
I witnessed that with my own eyes. No trick of Fox News.
Witness Ashura when Shi’a celebrants meet up with Sunni crowds.
There is much to be admired in the writings of the Qu’ran. The same can be said of the words of Jeshua of Nazareth as well as Siddhartha, Confucius and many other men of wisdom.
That said, there is nothing in any of them that compels me to worship them exclusively.
@Dawood Khan, this isn’t all about you… so sorry. You make generic Islam statements that elicted praise from one of our in house “all Islam is bad” commenters. Obviously, you… like the the rest of us and even the Muslims seeking reform… recognize that extreme interpretations of Islam is not a good thing.
The odd thing is your opinion differs little from my own… that Cordoba, if within the scope of our laws and not funded by terrorists… should be built despite our dislike of the idea. And that not all Muslims are “Islam” terrorists, as suggested by all too many here.
Like I said, much of this is your late entry into the discussion, without some background on the extreme tangents against all Muslims taken here.
But I find it interesting you choose to assault me, and I hear no tut tut from you on the linked comments I provided above. These get a pass from you, but you find a “Muslim apologist” just irresistable? Why is that, Dawood?
An interesting source:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AbulKasem50623p2.htm
@Dawood Khan… clarification welcomed. And agreed to. Personally, I wouldn’t go near the religion as a choice. No more than I would Mormon or Amish. Nor will I choose to judge those that do select it, as long as they are participating in America and following our laws.
BTW, I agree about the likelihood of funding. It’s a hot potato, and when done thru a non-profit (combined with the debate raging), the contributions will be closely monitored. Terrorist funds are harder to move around in int’l banking since the Bush years, and ordinary businesses may not wish to deal with the repercussions of donations associated.
Because I conceived you to be blindly defending a religion about which you seem to know very little. Admittedly, I could well be wrong on that point.
And if a poster seems not so intelligent, I find no interest in discussing much with them. You seemed intelligent, if apologetic, in the discussion.
I responded initially to this. Didn’t pay attention to whom I was responding.
It seemed to say that Muslims do not attempt to convert [revert] folks to their belief. I was simply saying that they do. They believe in this act just as do Christians. It is part and parcel of being Muslim to spread the religion. Both peaceably and violently.
You posted afterward as if you were denying that this was the case. Seemed to me your general vibe.
Then you seemed to be calling me a bigot or at the least lumping me in with folks who hate Muslims.
I do not hate Muslims. Nor do I hate Christians. I simply think that their religions are full of shit and baseless mythology based upon the ramblings of the insane. Ever actually read Revelations???
I don’t really hate anyone. I do hate institutions which have enslaved men and women for centuries. Islam is one of these. Christianity was one of these. For the most part, it has been reformed. Even though, they find a new and stupid cause every so often such as the “Sanctity of Marriage” Amendment which I find laughable.
@Dawood Khan, considering the months we’ve gone at this, it gets tiresome having to repeat the same things over and over. Frankly, three of we authors… myself, Wordsmith and Aye Chi… jumped in at the onset since the entire wave of “all Islam is bad”, “all mosques should be prohibited” was becoming the sing song of the commentary.
If you go thru the thread category link I provided above (starting at the last/oldest and working to the most recent), you’ll get the gist of how it’s all deteriorated. Ultimately, the anti-Cordoba House began their own Alinsky narrative, saying that if we grudgingly supported it’s construction, we were “muzzie teamsters”, and if we called out those (like those comments I linked) as dangerous ‘phobes, we were saying everyone who opposed were ‘phobes. Personally, I think the ‘phobes are relatively overt over the span of all the threads.
Way back on July 30th, after a month and a half of heated extreme accusations and commentary, I noted that people loosely fell into certain attitudes:
1: Those who outright support it, with no caveats. No one on this site, ever….
2: Those who don’t like the development, but have accepted that the legal process has been determined by local authorities and community and aren’t willing to do law changes based on discrimination.
3a: Those who have decided that Rauf is a radical without any evidence, and Cordoba House should be stopped at any cost… including altering laws to reverse the current legal decision. Will Emerson have that “evidence”? I don’t know. Supporting a one nation state isn’t exactly unusual, and is shared by more than a few at the UN (she spits….). And I’m waiting to hear what proof in transcripts there is for Emerson’s statement that Rauf, a Sufi, supports the Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia.
3b: Those on record that Cordoba House should be stopped even if Rauf is a “moderate”… whatever that guideline is. The above group sometimes say they are just fine if the mosque is “built elsewhere”… but they are also silent when the more extreme movements are shutting down mosque developement, located no where near Ground Zero, all over the country.
4: Those who believe that Muslims and Islam have no place in the US, that there are “enough” mosques in NYC or other places, and should be returned to “their nation of origin”.
I, myself, fall into the second range of attitudes. We have a very high percentage of the 3b’s and 4′s here tho. From your first comments, it seemed you were engaging in the rah rah Islam is all bad dance. In your subsequent comments, you have made yourself more abundantly clear. That, in itself, is appreciated… but even more so that it didn’t take four or five more threads on this never ending subject to come to light.
INRE the question about American Muslims, engaging in evangelism… this is, again, after months of being told by our self-professed infidel scholars that they are under orders to convert or kill any infidel. I’ve asked this question before – who’s ever had any Muslim them approach them personally for conversion – and no one has responded with an actual event. You are the first. It was, in some ways, almost a trick question since they spent so much time saying you’d be dead if you refused.
I don’t believe in absolute extremes. Therefore I’d never say *never* does a Muslim attempt to convert, but I did find it interesting that this mandate has not yet occurred in anyone’s daily life (except yours) after all their lecturing to the contrary. Dang… millions of Muslims in this country for decades/centuries, and no dead from failing to convert? I would also assume this happens less in modernized western nations, than in the tribal villages of Afghanistan.
And your last paragraph INRE enslaving type institutions? Couldn’t agree more. But then, some people genuinely seem to need a support system, and remain blind to it’s flaws or illogic. Don’t know what to do about that one… except hopefully have minimal humans, well educated so they don’t feel the need to flock to Jim Jones type cults.
I forgot to add… when you said this:
… I’ve made the same point. I was only met with “but they don’t kill you”, or “Christians don’t fly planes into buildings” type retorts.
In other words, they were saying Christian evangelism was acceptable. Islamic evangelism was nefarious in intent. No exceptions.
For all you useful idiots and pseudo intellectuals who believe Islam is the religion of piece, you might want to check out toays Yid With Lid blog. Read “Aug 23 1929. The Arabs Massacred the Jews of Hebron While the British Watched.” Aug 23 might be a suitable day for the IDF to unleash the dogs of war on those threatening their nation.
Let me tell you where my focus of reading has been since 911… not on how Muslims in general view Qur’an interpretations in their myriad of denominations, but on how, specifically, the global Islamic jihad movements choose to interpret that text. Just as Christianity has their various arms of Espicopalian, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, so too do Muslims. And much of their religious practices are influenced by the cultural society and engagement in the nations where they live.
What I found fascinating was the interplay, and power rifts, between the jihad movements… most especially how they worked in tandum to defeat a common enemy, only to return to internal battles to jockey for battle.
For example I was heartened by the power rift in the Old Taliban, under Bhutto’s created Mullah Omar’s Afghan group during Pakistan drought days, with the New Taliban in later years. She may have been a moderate reformer in some’s eyes, but she packed her admin who created and funded the bad guys for a protection racket. Like most leaders in Muslim nations, the blind eye is often given in return for favors. Then came Pakistan’s Taliban under Mehsud (now deceased), and rivaled the Old Taliban for power in Af/PAK. The same occurred with Saddam’s mutually beneficial alliances with jihad groups in order to use their contacts and routes for bypassing sanctions and the OFF (Oil for Food) UN scandal. And the dances done between Hezbollah and the Wahabbist AQ affiliates.
There was no doubt to me that bad guys have their disagreements, all outside of normal Muslims with their own reform issues. And that we’d find instances of Sunni types doing business with Shia when the end goal was mutually desired.
Of particular interest (and still stored on my desktop) is Zawahiri’s “open meeting” with the press and his responses to selected questions back in 2008. It was labeled Part One, and I have never found a Laura Mansfield translated Part Two available. Too bad. But the views of their extreme interpretation of the Qur’an are obvious… and I do not construe them to be a common scholarly interpretation for Muslims in general.
Another struggle that captured my attention was between al Sadr and Zarqawi (prior to his death, of course). al Sadr was higher on the scholarly food chain both in blood line and education, and his resentment for Zarqawi’s popularity as a down and dirty rebel leader played much into the Iraq theatre strategy.
Of late, the eyes should be on the increasing chasm between Ahmadinejad, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, and a very disgruntled more modern Muslim youth population, increasingly rebelling against both. In the long run, I’m betting on the sheer numbers of youth making changes in Iran internally…. if for no other reason than the youth overtaking the older fundamentalist ruling class. Just depends upon how much damage the existing religious and elected powers do in the interim.
So on Islam studies in general, nope… never been my focus. But I am not uncomfortable in the realm of Islam, as viewed thru the eyes of the global Islamic jihad movements, and the despots that take advantage of their services to maintain power.
@minuteman 26, if Bebe and the IDF are to stand on date significance, they will be two days too late.
According to news reports, and following on the heels of John Bolton’s talking head appearances days ago, it will be too late. Russia is slated to fuel and fire up Bushehr plant today.
Too late to strike post fueling the reactor for repercussions of fallout.
And, as ever, always grateful for your fertile fodder in the #4 category….
… signed, a better informed “useful idiot” than you
Another worthwhile article. It’s a presentation given in 2004, and discusses “islamism” as opposed to islam.
http://www.danielpipes.org/2196/the-challenge-of-islamism-in-europe-the-middle-east
@MataHarley
As Dawood so aptly pointed out your propensity to twist words… I won’t delve into too much further.
My “re-write” of the 1st amendment NEVER SINGLED OUT ISLAM
In my 1st post on this thread in regards to “clear and present danger”… do you see the word Muslim anywhere in post #7? However… if the shoe fits… wear it… you Mata are just as Dawood describes… quite quick to twist words.
In past posts you have given the impression that Freedom of Religion is sacrosanct… I contend that it is no more sacrosanct than Freedom of Speech which the Supreme Court applies the test of “clear and present danger”.
I will leave the arguing of what Islam represents to Dawood… he’s got you outgunned in his knowledge of Islam. You are way outmatched.
@MataHarley
You further distort facts by attempting to attribute comments to me that I never made…
Not a single one of those comments was made by me… not the ones you included in the blockquote of the post or the comments to which you linked.
Actually, Donald, had you taken a trip to the link I put in my comment #20, you’d see right after I included those blockquotes, I addressed your rewrite, saying it fit right in there.
Now you’ve tried to play the “meaning of ‘is’… is” game several times with your Amendment rewrite. Unfortunately, your supporting commentary makes it quite plain you were addressing Islam in your intent.
So I guess what you want is a little blockquote of your own comments that makes it quite obvious how you feel about Islam, and how busy your mind stays on figuring out acceptable ways to exempt practicing Muslims from Constitutional rights. And, of course, it becomes obvious that you insist that any one who practices Islam must be bent on overthrowing the United States.
There ya go… happy now? I misrepresent nothing. I simply allow your own commentary to dictate my final assumptions.
@Donald Bly #19:
Really, Bly?! Seriously?
Dawood speaks for you when he writes this:
Interesting to know you, Donald Bly, have no problems with “the mosque” should it turn out not to be funded by Khomeinites and wahhabists.
BTW, Donald: in reference to your “rewrite” of the Constitution…
…. two points:
1: You did not address mandatory conversion on pain of death, as you morphed in your later explanations. It said “advocates for the overthrow of the US Government and the Constitution of the USA”.
2: So, in the same vein, how about exempting political realms of thought and parties that also advocate for the overthrow of the US Government and Constitution… ala the Communist Party, even the progressive wings of Democrats. They are, after all, busy chewing off the legs of that document as we speak endlessly about this dang building. Can’t even leave out the extreme right, busy clamoring for rebellion, and dryin’ out their powder.
So you want to ban written doctrine of religions for overthrow, but want to leave political party platforms out of it? Why? Because they aren’t Muslim?
And just how do you square either exemption as being part of the founding of this country’s principles?
@wordsmith, I think Donald Bly was so happy thinking I was “outmatched” by someone who actually shares my opinion that he totally missed the ensuing conversations.
@Mata… yes, I’m happy now… and I’ll stand by each and every one of those statements. Each is written with a view of 1400 years of violent Islamic history, which Dawood quite eloquently expressed in a previous post on this thread.
However, your previous post WAS misrepresenting my position and attempting to attribute to me comments that I have not made. You simply got called out on your misrepresentation, but misrepresent you did.
I don’t have any problem with people as individuals, no matter what faith they have. I first make my judgments based on what I see, and how they interact but I WILL NOT simply dismiss the written doctrine of a religion simply because some of the adherents are nice at the moment. Especially when 1400 years of history has proven that their doctrine AS WRITTEN is one that is not compatible with modern society (read that western civilization) It has always been my philosophy that no two individuals can possibly have the same religious beliefs because every individual has a unique perspective. Kinda like … is the blue I see, the same as the blue you see!
No misrepresentation, Donald Bly… you just thought no one kept any list of the weird commentary coming from what I used to think were Constitutional conservatives.
Therefore, to show I was not misrepresenting your intents, I had to do your homework and provide the specifics that lent support to your own misrepresentation that you intended to exclude only Islam…. not political parties… from Constitutional rights because you believe everyone in that religion wants to overthrown the US.
pathetic…
@Wordsmith… I absolutely support Dawood’s position…. I have never, not one single time… taken a stand on the Ground Zero Mosque either way. Have at it trying to find any post where I did.
@Mata… it appears that once you got your ass handed to you … you now claim that Dawood and you share the same opinions… Not from the way I read it.
@Mata….
Another fine example of twisting words…
Since I haven’t addressed the issue of the Communist Party at all… it means only that… I haven’t addressed the issue and no inference can be made concerning what I have not addressed. Nice Strawman there.
pathetic….
@Donald Bly:
Really?! Well, that’s interesting. Wonder what it was that gave me that impression then? I’m not up for sifting back through comments at the moment, but will just have to take your word on it.
So I guess if Cordoba House isn’t financed by wahhabis or by Tehran, then you are now on record as standing unopposed to its presence near Ground Zero.
I think that just may put you to the “left” of Mata, Aye, or myself.
If you’d stop reveling in what you perceived as personal and satisfactory revenge, you might reread @Dawood’s comment above and you’ll find he doesn’t have the blanket negative disdain for Islam that you possess…. only in the way some interpret and act upon that interpretation.
Need some excerpt help? Here ya go…
Here’s a bit more insight to a more rational mind than yours.
There’s another thing you have missed from Dawood:
Iman Feisal Rauf is a Sufi…. one of those at odds with Wahhabis. Now what would remain to be proven by Emerson with his claims is if Rauf’s Sufi’ism is just a lifelong front to hide a closet Wahhabist.
So what was that you were saying again?
Yes, Donald… I asked you that question in the original thread to you I linked above, and just like now, you dodged the same then. Probably because you can’t be a supporter of Constitutional rights, and say what you’d like, eh?
There is no strawman save in your attempt to skirt answers to incriminating questions. If you want to ban “religions” that have written agendas to “overthrow the US government”, how can you ignore political party platforms that do the same?
@wordsmith, Donald Bly has before said he has not taken a stand on Cordoba House. As much as I can tolerate sifting thru past threads, and I’ve already archived most of those that I think have pertinent interest, this is true. He pretty much confines all his commentary to Islam at large, and never addresses Cordoba House specifically.
Sounds like a personal reading problem then, Donald Bly. Actually, Wordsmith is correct that objections generally remained confined to the method used to stop Cordoba House, and whether it’s changing laws to discriminate against Muslims. And all of us have stated that Rauf accepting terrorist funding was unacceptable in anyway. Therefore since the beginning, all of us have shared one common bond – we all find the choice of Cordoba House extremely offensive. Dawood stated it wasn’t a good choice, but supported it if there was no terrorist funding. I guess that means we all have weighed in….
…. except for you, I guess, who has chosen not to “take a stand” on anything but all of Islam as an enemy of the United States of America.
@Donald Bly:
Ahem:
Seems rather clear what your position on the GZM is, eh?
Oh yes… forgot that was his lead in to his 1st Amendment rewrite, Aye Chi…
@Wordsmith…. I will continue to NOT take a stand in regards to the Mosque… I do think it isn’t what one could consider a real seeking of dialog and healing and I’m wary of the motivation. However, if it isn’t stopped through some constitutional mechanism… I would not want its construction stopped in violation of the constitution. What I do agree with in regard to Dawood’s position is the history of Islam and the way in which it has been spread throughout the world via the sword.
@Mata
You are the big believer in the wisdom of the Supreme Court… it they deem the communist party a “clear and present danger”… then I guess they can do any damn thing they want. It is not necessary for me to comment on anything simply because you want me to comment. The communist party does advocate for violent overthrow, which sets it apart from the progressive movement’s goal of overthrow from within. If the people of this nation are stupid enough to adopt socialism and whatever that leads to as our form of government then Ben Franklin will have been prophetic… “We have a Republic, If we can keep it”
@Aye… Touche
I guess that could be considered as a position on the GZM. It was meant as was an indictment of the intolerance of Islam towards other faiths. A what’s good for the gander is good for the goose proposition and not an endorsement one way or the other although I can see how you might think it is.
My position is and always will be…. Islam is an institution that western civilization should never turn their backs on thinking that they will be as peaceful tomorrow as they “might” be today. Their history proves that one should be extremely wary regardless of the pleasantness of some.
Now… I’d much rather discuss other issues, but I got sucked much further into this thread than I really wanted to get sucked in, since Mata choose to infer that comments not made by me were mine and make me the whipping boy of bigotry.
Gotta go… I’m meeting Skookum for dinner shortly.
SCOTUS never ruled on the Socialist Party as a political party or organization being a “clear and present danger”. That ruling was confined to the upheld conviction of Charles Schenck…. not the party at large.
Nor can you claim your 1st Amendment rewrite is confined to the “violent” overthrow, since you only used the word “advocates”. But we finally have something we can again agree upon. “We have a Republic, if we can keep it.” Waste much more bandwidth and campaign talking points on Cordoba House, and the more likely we can indeed find ourselves losing it.
@Donald Bly #52:
I just don’t understand this “tit for tat” line that so many have been using about “they can build a mosque there as soon as we can build a Christian church at Mecca”, or some similar phrasing.
So, we should become more like the Saudis?
That’s a real head scratcher….
Oh my… really now, Donald. Portraying yourself as “the victim” really isn’t a becoming sight, guy. May I remind you of just how this started?
In your comment #7 you were impatiently frothing at the bit to say “I told you so… As I pointed out, if Emerson found evidence that Sufi Rauf was actually a Wahhabi extremist in disguise, it would prove that Rauf – not Islam – was a bad guy.
Then in your comment #19, you got all excited thinking you found a new, eloquent voice to echo your all of Islam is an enemy sentiments. But oops… that didn’t turn out well either. Especially when you accused me of misrepresenting that’s exactly your stand.
Thus I drag out the Bly archives for you. Which, in your own words confirm that yup… all of Islam is the enemy, and advocates for overthrow of the US government.
Out of all that, you derive that:
1: I attributed comments to you that were not yours, when the entire comment I linked to was addressed *only* to you, and taking you to task for your 1st Amendment rewrite? and…
2: I made you the whipping boy of bigotry?
Actually, Donald, the comments I used as examples of bigotry when talking to you in that past linked thread were far worse than yours. Yours is more subtle. But as you like to say, if the shoe fits….
I’m not figuring that’s much of an insult since you really are looking forward to your ‘phobe badge.
You’ll enjoy Skookum. Eat, drink and be merry. Hopefully you’ll find other subjects to chit chat on in that time.
One last thing.
I said that if it had no ties in funding or support from Wahhabist or Rev Iran sources that I had no problem with it.
I never said that I supported it.
Personally speaking. At times, I feel that America should pass a Constitutional Amendment stating that no Mosque shall be built on our lands until Saudi Arabia opens their lands to other religions.
I get so tired of Saudis and especially the Saudi Royalty preaching tolerance to us when they are the most intolerant group of peoples on the planet.
Allow them to build secret halls as are allowed in Saudi Arabia. But nothing more.
Saudi Arabia should be pushed in exactly the same way that they are pushing other.
@Mata…. I never said that the Supreme Court ruled on the Communist party as a “clear and present danger”… What you saw was a typo.
It should have read “IF”… not it.
Had dinner with Skookum last night… It was a delightful experience with one exception. As we were turning in to the farm where Skookum was working on some horses, a rather large pick-up truck rear-ended my wife’s brand new car. Less that 500 miles on the beast, we hadn’t even gotten our plates yet. My wife was in tears but everyone was okay.
Dinner with Skookum and the great conversation took the accident off of both our minds. Skookum has some amazing talents. He had my wife hold out her arm, he then placed a hand on each side about 2 1/2 inches from her forearm. He slowly moved his hands, never touching her arm, up then down the length from her elbow to her wrist.
My wife described the feeling of heat permeating her forearm, it was an amazing experience. Reminded me of Karate Kid.
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
DONALD bly, hi , I like that story, AND the moral of the story is;
DONT buy any frog with a scorpion on top, bye
Question: how can you tell the difference?? Or are we supposed to just take it all on “faith” that “these” muslims, and this mosque, and this imam, are not like some of the “others” who lived among us as our neighbors..while plotting to cut our necks? Or help in some way towards that cause…even as the good people who go there to pray are unaware. There is no doubt…most muslims don’t follow the same extremist code…despite the fact that it’s pushed HEAVILY by well funded people here …and states like S.A. How do you know? And if you can’t know..for sure…then the only thing you can do is to try and take precautions best you can to protect the ‘larger’ population. Post 9/11, we have lost some of our freedoms in order to protect the larger whole. Why? We aren’t “all” terrorists? Not all terrorists use hi-jacking or planes to commit their crimes? The whole point IS to catch us off-guard in someway. Somewhere we are NOT looking for it. While we have to protect ourselves against everything. Any reasonable person would understand “why” they have to go through more stringent security before getting on a plane..EVEN THOUGH they are not remotely, nor look like nor act like a isolated “terrorist”.
The man who owned the ME restaurant that my wife and friends and I used to frequent…talk with him, etc. Gone. Material support for terrorism (money, etc.). He was connected with the travel agency/news stand on the corner (also gone). The guy that sold ice cream to the kids…gone. Turns out all these “nice” mulsims…OUR NEIGHBORS..who lived next to us, who shared bread with us, and smiled at us…and attended the local mosque, were at the same time…using that trust to betray us. So, given that, I ask again…how can you or anyone else possibly know the difference?…who to trust? Who not to trust? Or how much we can trust. Given the deception and it’s purpose..nobody can know. How much “freedom” are you willing to give up ..in order to reduce the chance of another 9/11 happening again? Would you…stand in line for an hour or more? Be searched? Have your luggage gone through? How about have your phone conversations listened into if you call a known terrorist location overseas? Good muslims (and anybody who even remotely looks like one) are being searched and inconvenienced everyday. A plane was stopped just recently because somebody thought something was suspicious and called it in and the FBI ended up walking a Pakistani couple off the plane, searching them, and then releasing them, delaying the flight. They don’t like it..we don’t like it…but we all understand “why” it’s necessary.
NYC has been, and “is” a target…and one “should” have more than a passing concern in these areas…if recent past events are not surely a reminder that good, neighborly good, mild mannered muslims can turn out to be the ones betraying us. There are constant reminders on subways, airports etc. “if you see something, say something”, long lines, random searches, etc. I won’t even mention the imam in Queens, that everyone defended, and spoke to his honor and his commitment to fighting extremism, his long time in the community, etc., getting deported for lieing to FBI to cover for a would-be bomber that could have killed hundreds if not thousands of people and created havoc and financial damage that would be unrecoverable for a long time. Our neighbors! Well respected, long standing “Americans”….stabbing us ALL (good muslims included) in the back. So, I ask again…how do you tell the difference…other than reading the names off the knives in your back? And how do “we” protect ourselves while still maintaining our dignity and sense of freedom…who we are…while doing so?
There are apparently plenty of muslims just as opposed to this new location for this already divisive mosque/community center as well for the same reasons..because given the circumstances…it’s just going to make things harder for them in the current environment we all live in as well. What do we call them? Killers of religious freedom? Racists? Ignorant ? Or Islamaphobic?
And where was your cry for “Freedom of Religion” when they refused to give permits to rebuild the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11?
I’ll keep my head on swivel around here thank you very much just like anybody else will do if they want to stay alive…including our fellow good muslims who also die at the hands of these betrayers. Because that’s the only real defense any of us have. And I’m speaking as someone who carries the scars from previous experience, as well as numerous close calls. You can call that anything you like (Islamaphobia, etc). I just call it common sense and trying to stay alive.
No Bees… the moral of the story is … Don’t buy a scorpion with a frog underneath it!
DONALD BLY, YES you are right, I think; WHEN did you read that you are right?
bye
@Bees…. It’s been a while… normally I just get called a bigot and an Islamophobe. Mostly by those that can’t conceive of the idea that a scorpion might just stay true to its nature even if it is talking sweet. Which I’m happy to say are a minority.
Hey guys…This is worthy of your perusal. He looks at the changing attitudes Americans have for Moslems. (With graphs!)
Excerpt:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH17Ak01.html
PATVANN: hi, you can dig up the good links ones who are unexpected, what I,
see is who can read minds, THEREFOR, why take a chance on the name of tolerance, if It’s only on our side;
THEY have,nt prove anything that they are tolerant yet, THAN we cannot take their side as tolerant.
the next move is their own: TOLERANT OR NOT TOLERANT,THAT is the QUESTION,
AND being in their position to influence their followers, they are oblige to show AMERICANS; who
spill their blood for the freedom including their FREEDOM; what
they represent and who they are, because they are the one who started, that, they are the one responsible for the anger from the ever tolerant AMERICAN. for not seeing like real AMERICANS
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I don’t subscribe to the theory of tolerance. That speaks to the underlying tension that is assumed by the need for said tolerance. If cultures or peoples can not accept one another, there will never be peace.
Acceptance of differences is the key.
Tolerance is a liberal fallacy. A liberal utopian fantasy.
@Dawood Khan
“Feared, or respected? I say, why not both?”
Putting a healthy fear in the hearts of one’s enemy is paramount.
We should be able to earn the respect of the masses as well.
The problem is that our critics within and without trump up and shout to the top of the mountains our failures and excesses and remain silent on the good that we do.
No one mentions that our Navy patrols the seas at a cost of nothing. This has not always been the case in the history of our planet. Most powers have patrolled the sea lanes at the expense of others. Britain is the only country who can claim to have done anything near to the service that we do in that regard and even they pale in comparison.
America and Americans give more to the world in the form of Charity and Aid Packages than any other Nation in history. I believe that Americans give more to charity than over half of Europe.
We have our excesses. We have our failings. We also have our excellent aspects and extraordinary achievements as a Nation.
America being in power and being the leader of the European Nations is the cause of the end of incessant global wars. While Europe was the power of the land, there were constant wars in Europe that spread out to the globe and affects all and sundry. The American projection of strength over the world has halted their constant strife. Though, no European will admit to this.
Since the rise of America as THE World Power, there have been no global wars and there have been no major wars between the European Powers. Europe has been at war either amongst themselves or with others since the time of Alexander.
Only since the rise of America after World War II have they been at peace. Relative peace.
That would not have been possible without America.
Dawood Kahn: hi, TO think TOLERANCE, it’s to leave the responsability to them to back up from the building and they said, it’s too late ,too much involved, well what is involved on this side,
Is far more, than they can never estimated: they knew to keep a low profile from the beginning, they knew of the sensitivity of the location, yet they went ahead : they had all the advices to stop ,
SO they are to blame for the anger directed at them, they produce hatefull division among the people, they own the problem. they are the one to repair it.
@Dawood Khan:
Wouldn’t tolerance be a necessary precursor to acceptance?
@ilovebeeswarzone
Actualy, it goes deeper, and into somthing within the American pshyche that many pinheads in DC, and in other countries fail to remember.
With the Freedom of Speech, comes the Freedom to tell you ‘you are WRONG’! With Freedom of Religion, comes my RIGHT to disagree with your religion.
Somehow the PC crowd tried to create a Right not to be offended by anyone…yet I don’t see that Right anywhere in the Constitution.
With your Freedom, comes my Freedom and Right to be an Asshole, and we Americans are getting angry enough to once more… become just that.
During WWII we plain lost our temper, and the world saw true total war being waged…
Right after 9/11, the world was Afriad we would once again loose our Temper, and folks like Khadafi and others caved…. but we used restraint… so the world no longer believes we have the cojones to loose our temper…. they mistake forbearence, for a lack of spirit.
They are wrong…
@Aye… 71
Speaking for myself? Why would I want to accept the current incarnation of Islam? With the way it treats women, and gays, its Sharia law, and the way it does NOT support Freedom of Religion of conscience?
Thus, if I am not going to accept this barbaic philisophical system, why in the heck should I be full of “tolerance” for it?
@Romeo13:
I was thinking in broader terms, not about the Islam issue specifically.
Any sort of change or new set of circumstances occurs, especially change we don’t like, is dealt with in stages. I see tolerance as being one of the primary steps in the process, acceptance coming later.
As to the Islam issue, not all practitioners of the religion treat women and gays in the fashion that you seem to be alluding to. Not all practitioners prescribe to virulent/violent Sharia law.
Just as not all Christian sects are the same in their beliefs or religious observances.
I can “tolerate” and “accept” moderate Muslims while drawing a clear line of resistance and rejection when it comes to the radical or extreme adherents.
But to the PC crowd TOLERANCE is an end unto itself…
It’s ignorant. At it’s base, it is bigotry. It’s basically a statement that though we’ll never like it, we’ll pretend we do. It’s hypocrisy in its basest form.
Islam is not a horrible religion. It has beauty. It does. You’ll have to either study it or trust me. The Egyptian form of Islam so captivated me at one time that I nearly converted. And I’m one of the most blasphemous sons of bitches that you will ever [EVER] meet.
The people of Islam are mostly nice. They’re hospitable. They take hospitality to extremes. I’ve many Muslim friends. They’re fearful of both the extremists and of us. It’s probably a strange place to be for them.
Don’t ever make the mistake of thinking that all Muslims accept or think that violence is the norm. Islamic history is no different than the history of the West. Episodes of violence and war interrupted by periods of peace and tranquility. We are all guilty of this.
It’s not Islam. It’s the beast within. Just as the Inquisition and similar episodes of WEstern/Christian history were full of inhumanity interrupted by periods of tranquility and brotherly love and transcendence.
We are all, after all, but human…
@Aye 74
How? Is there some secret Moderate Moslem Handshake I don’t know about? Please tell me how you can tell a moderate from a Jihadist… Becasue when I was in the Mid East I sure could not tell them apart… unless the guns happened to be pointed at me.
And the key point is that ISLAM is not changing… Islamic teachings remain the same, but Moderate Moslems are like Cafeteria Catholics (who are pro abortion). They are not following all the dictates of their relgion is they are moderate.
And that, is the problem.
So… Where are Steve Emerson’s Imam Rauf tapes?
If you Google “Steve Emerson” Imam Rauf tapes, you’ll now find 28 pages of links to heated discussion of their outrageous content–even though no tapes or specifics about what’s on them have yet appeared.
ROMEO 13: I had 2 comment for you and it did not pass, so I’m tired , and I just wil
say, that I agree with what you said, that IT’s deeper, and right fully so. bye
GREG ,I say, they might have been stop for public view, by friends on higher ground. bye
WHAT else.
@Greg
Be careful what you wish for.
We on the right have learned well how “things work” in the modern media age.
-Notice how quiet Rauf and his excuse-makers on the left are. If YOU were accused of lies that called into question everything you’ve worked for in the past 9 years, would you remain this quiet?
If you were as widely read, and economically vulnerable as Emerson and Geller are, would you put out a lie?
The fish has bit the bait, and the setting of the hook can wait. They are waiting for the “fish” to swallow the bait, and wiggle the line.
@Patvann
Yep, they are playing for time, trying to ride out the News Cycle.
@Patvan, #80: “If YOU were accused of lies that called into question everything you’ve worked for in the past 9 years, would you remain this quiet?”
It’s hard to respond intelligently to statements an accuser claims you’ve made, when he won’t even tell you what those statements are.
What I wish to know is what the guy said. If I knew I might form some opinion about it. Until then, I’ll be forming an opinion about Steve Emerson and how he seems to operate.
@Greg
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You sit there, religiously checking in on this site, hearing about who has what “evidence” that we on the dreaded “right’ have in store for you, and you do NOTHING to educate yourself.
Instead you come back and blindly lash out, while steeped in ignorance.
You never googled, yet you now sit there and bitch.
I’m sorry, man, but even the BEST (or worse) of my liberal foils can fucking GOOGLE shit.
THIS is why we treat you with such distain. WE DO YOUR FUCKING RESEARCH FOR YOU!!!!!! But at the same time find ourselves defending some goddamn regurgiitated pap HANDED to you…which you so faithfully repeat here.
Here, Google this, you lazy POS:
Atlas Shrugs
(i just tried every combination of Emerson tapes/recordings/mosque, and 10 other variable versions and the pertanant site came up. I tested google, bing, and yahoo, so don’t fuck with me. But I just handed you the short way.)
The worse part is that I know damn well that you will NOT read more than one damn paragragh, and that you will the come back here and make some sort of stoopid judgement based on it. READ FOR ONE DAMN HOUR ON ONE FREAKIN SITE, YOU WILLFULLY STOOPID LEFTIST.
GOD how I dispise the willfully stupid.
@Greg
Ya know what really sux about being a “wingnut”…
I’m feeling guilty for not knowing if you are 22 or 72. If you are closer to the later, and are actually THAT unaware of the modern methods of information-gathering, I will back off and devote the time nesssary to teach you the in and outs of the internet… With no ill regard what-so-ever.
I was born in 1961.
Dc: hi, I hope you like a bit of humor here, YOU came in after DONALD BLY gave the story of the FROG and SCORPION; SO, you start your comment with this”how can you tel the difference”?
SO I could’nt resist it,here I say,to continiue your question “there is one who’s on top,
AND one under. bye
SOMETIMES, I look on the banner right, where the comments are from each person,
AND more than you would think, there is a follow up from one to 2or more first few words of each , and it come,realy very funny, many times, check it up.
I’m uncertain what “information” I’m supposed to have so easily gathered.
Is there a transcript of Emerson’s tapes out there somewhere that I’ve missed? I’m not particularly inept at digging information out of the internet, but haven’t been able to find anything of the sort.
I don’t form opinions based on out of context comments. Something like this, I presume, is supposed to be enough to lead me to a conclusion about Rauf:
It isn’t. I understand that the statement has a larger context. I understand that–however uncomfortable such a statement makes me feel–from the viewpoint of the Muslim world, it might be seen as having some basis in reality. It’s not necessarily “anti-US, jihadist rhetoric” just because it’s critical of a past U.S. policy, or just because Pamela Geller wishes to characterize it as such.
If incriminating sound files or transcripts ever come to light I’ll give them every consideration. Until then, I’ll assume they’re being kept in a shoebox somewhere, possibly along with the Whitey tape.
If Emerson has really got something, he should put it out there and resolve any confusion about what Rauf really is. A single clear statement where Rauf calls for the elimination of Israel would be enough to do the trick for me. People are claiming Emerson has got that.
There’s enough incriminating past statements by Rauf and as of this week his wife Kahn to question their motives. But… sometimes you don’t get it spoon fed to you. I’ve had to sit through hours and hours of video of Center for American Progress seminars and speeches that it would numb your mind… no transcripts… but ultimately IN THEIR OWN WORDS… statements that would shock most Americans, strategies, tactics, etc… but… it is THEIR OWN WORDS… no nice tidy transcript…
Greg, get off your ass and put in some sweat! Video is an amazing medium but unfortunately… you just can’t do a quick search of some text and get to the goods. But… you can’t dispute words out of their mouth like you can dispute the veracity of text on a page.
What’s sad Greg, is that that particular quote isn’t enough for you to determine that he ain’t what he claims to be, unless you have no ability whatsoever to parse out that statement.
The “basis” you have convinced yourself to look for isn’t there.
Why? Two things spring to mind:
1. It is true that in it’s entire history America has killed more NON Moslems than AQ has. That fact has NOTHING to do with anything going on in regards to the West confronting radical Islam today, or in the past. Islam has killed over 100 million in it’s history…Does he (or you) wanna go there?
2. It is a bold-face and provable lie that America (and the rest of those who participated in those sanctions) killed 1/2 a million Iraqi children during the 90′s. The “context” in this matter is that Saddam diverted money and supplies that would have helped those children….Regardless, the number was never close to his claim.
Yet you want to give him the benefit of the doubt…waiting for some “context’….
What kind of context? Explore it for us!
I agree with Patvann on the historical reading; and I agree with Greg on the Rauf statement as non-proof of any radical ties to Islamic terrorism and militant sympathizing.
What Rauf has been “caught” saying thus far is hardly alarmist beliefs. If you never saw his name associated with the sentence(s), you could just as well see a pacifist multiculturalist liberal or an isolationist/non-interventionist conservative echo the same type of criticism of the United States on foreign policy, “creating more terrorists”, “propping up dictatorships”, etc. How is his historical opinion on Hiroshima and Dresden any different than one held by an anti-war pacifist? How many of them also blame the U.S. for sanctions rather than Saddam that led to “the death of half a million Iraqi children”? During the 1st Gulf War, we intentionally destroyed the Iraqi water supply and then denied Iraqis materials needed to rebuild the supply and purify the water system. Thousands were denied clean water and waterborne illnesses became epidemic. According to the WHO and Unicef reports, over a million Iraqis died as a result, half of which were Iraqi children under 5 yrs old. I hold Saddam accountable. According to Islamic law, poisoning the water supply amounts to terrorism and killing civilians and children in warfare is strictly forbidden (in the views of “moderates” and “peaceful” Muslims who do condemn terrorism from those they say “hijack their religion”). It’s why al Qaeda has to look to Qutb and Taymiyyah to find justification for acts of terrorism that is condemned by most of the Islamic world.
We don’t like liberal opinion and their perceptions of history drives us nuts. But political differences should not be confused with radical Islam and alignment with Islamic terrorism; at least no more than we’d hold any liberal accountable for giving aid and comfort to the enemies of our country.
There is 1400 years of Islamic history where installing Islam is first attempted peacefully and when that doesn’t work… by the sword. That’s just Islam’s history… I don’t expect that ideology to make a 180 from its past practices.
@Donald Bly, #91: “There is 1400 years of Islamic history where installing Islam is first attempted peacefully and when that doesn’t work… by the sword.”
Christianity has a very similar history. People simply tend to view the history of their own religion and culture in a more favorable light.
What might the indigenous people of North, South, and Meso-America tell us about the arrival of Christianity with the European invaders?
The same thing was true across much of the world during the era of European colonial expansion.
If you go back earlier, there were the Crusades; earlier still, Christianity was initially spread across Europe at the point of a sword. The forced conversion of entire populations is a big part of the story.
As with Islam, Christianity also has a long, bloody history of violent conflict within its own context. The wars and violence between European Catholics and Protestants must have seemed endless.
Yes Greg… I am well aware of the despicable acts of the Catholic Church in the early days of Christianity… however, despite the failure of the early Christian Church to actually follow Christ’s doctrine, the written doctrine of Christianity NEVER advocates for the kind of behavior and actions in which the Catholic Church engaged. The early institutions of Christianity, IE the Catholic Church failed miserably, they became corrupted by those that sought power and wealth at the expense of those that truly sought to follow Christ’s message. Hell.. it used to be a capital offense for a layperson to even own a bible. And the Bible itself, New Testament, is a construct of the Council of Nicea and the Emperor Constantine. The majority of the “books” that make up the Bible were written by Paul, which makes much of the doctrine of the Bible the doctrine of Paul, not Christ.
I’m not a Paulist… I look only to the words, and deeds and teachings of Christ. Very much in the vein of Thomas Jefferson, who compiled only Christ’s words in a volume. Paul claims to be a Apostle, then uses his own words and those of his traveling companion to justify that claim.
The Crusades, were a response to the conquest of previously Christian lands by Islam, and the Islamic invasion into Europe through Spain.
The inquisition… absolutely no excuse for such evil.
You will find my objections are centered around WRITTEN DOCTRINE. And even though I feel that Paul co-opted Christianity, the NEW TESTAMENT does not advocate for violence or forced conversion.
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