We are a week into Ramadan; yet what Americans are unaware of amidst all this hype and hysteria about the potential for a 13 story community center (with a mosque) conceived by Muslims, being built 2 blocks away from Ground Zero as opposed to 10 blocks away (which is about how far away Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been holding congregations for years, serving the community of Lower Manhattan for 27 yrs), is that Ground Zero has been invaded by symbolic flags of Islamic conquest for years, now:
: Halal food carts spotted ON Ground Zero!
A reader writes in to sound the alarm about another sacrilege that we’ve all somehow overlooked:
One thing I haven’t seen anyone write about is the presence of Muslim food carts MUCH closer to Ground Zero. There are at least two, depending on the time of day, along West Broadway between Vesey and Park Place. One is practically on top of the Ground Zero construction site, outside the Path station. Aren’t they an “affront,” a “provocation”? Muslims engaging in in-your-face commerce on sacred ground, with the word HALAL prominently displayed on their carts! Where’s Palin when we need her??
This is an outrage! It’s a slap in the face to all Americans. Would we have let udon noodle stands open shop at Pearl Harbor? Or allow sushi to be served aboard the USS Nevada just 9 years after the day that lives on in infamy?
Why isn’t this “creeping diarrhea” making frontpage headline news?! I am so sick of the media bias!
Granted, they most likely have the proper mobile food vendor’s license, and aren’t breaking any laws (Can we get some lawyers on this, right away, just to be sure? Perhaps find a loophole…). So we are appealing to Muslim food peddlers’ sensitivities here and demand: Go peddle the halal somewhere else. It is inappropriate and distasteful.
Especially during the month of Ramadan.
Of course, this “Islamization” of America’s food isn’t limited to Ground Zero. This takeover is happening all across the country!
Stop the Islamization of American food!
Ramadan…no wonder the BLT taste so damn good this time of year…
I am sure you guys really believe in this . . . what is it that liberals do so well – moral equivalence.
Nice try. The more you write the more ignorant you appear.
Unfortunately, it is legal. We can all do what you are doing and let others know what it is. I just found out from your post. If I see the word “halal” I will know not to give them my business, just like I don’t give China any more of my business than I have to.
I’ll say what I said in my post. Some people have a difficult time discerning eating food from practicing religion.
Having spent a lot of time in the Middle East, I will eat Halal as often as I can find it. I love it and also Kosher food I had in Israel.
Seems some people do not understand clearly what I am writing. In previous comments, I compared the extremist writings with that of the National Socialist writing of WWII. If documents are written as principles of a group of people, then I suggested strongly that one must believe the documents ARE the principles of that group. The Nazis stated clearly their intentions. Only a small group of “fear mongers and alamists” pointed this reality out. Over 95% of the population of Europe refused to heed the warnings.
And so it goes with what is happening among our fellow liberal citizens. To warn about the writings and the documents in front of one’s face which are easily accessible to anyone who looks is to be a racist. History speaks clearly about how Islam interacts with infidels. TRUE ISLAM cannot, will not coexist with another religion in a peaceful manner. The moderates of Islam are silent for one of two reasons – fear of reprisals or sympathy and support for what is happening. Either way the truth is not pretty.
My comment about the sarcastic blog above was a slam to the writer of the blog who was trying to play the moral equivalence card as if one is equal to the other. If one thinks the Muslim mosque is inappropriate, then phoney logic would mean that eating or selling Muslim food would also be inappropriate. You insult us with such sarcasm.
No one that I know of would say that the Muslims do not have a right to build a mosque wherever they see fit according to local laws. Freedom comes with responsibilities and IMHO, these Muslims who are pushing this center, have refused to accept these responsibilities. Follow the money trail and what has been documented about the person pushing this center. Tolerance is not the name of the game.
If the majority of people in the area believe such a mosque is inappropriate for whatever reason, then in the name of tolerance (which historical Islam does not have) these Muslims should not be intolerant to these peoples wishes in order to exercise their rights to build and worship. I would be completely in support of such a center if there were places for Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Jews to worship alongside Muslims. How do you spell FAT CHANCE. It is phoney and has nothing to do with inter-religious tolerance. Follow the money and read the writings of those who would build such a place.
The initiator of this thread seems to be hell bent on being the voice of Islam on this site. An apparent attempt to goad people into conflict. He just can’t seem to let it go.
The author of this blog is not attempting the evil he is being accused of, very sad form of debate and I know you all are better than that.
We did not write the blog but simply responded to a sarcastic attack using moral equivalency as a means to get his very obvious message across. Dare voice disagreement with his views with honestly held reasons and logic and be sarcastically accused of also being against selling Muslim food at the questioned location. This is a very liberal style of attack and it is I who thought this site was better than that. Not a person I know would dare make such a dumb attempt at sarcasm.
I say leave it alone once and for all. I, for one, am totally convinced the whole mosque thing is a sham just as the Flight 93 memorial is a sham. This is exactly how followers of true Islam proceed IMHO.
Germany recently closed a mosque because it was used for Jihadist activity:
They have apparently not shut down any pushcarts.
All this post does is make clear that it is not Muslims themselves that are objectionable.
Thanks for the opportunity to clear the air.
Rauf won’t answer his phone any more. He won’t answer questions. Perhaps if he thew open the door and opened his books to allow all to see how this mosque is being financed many people would feel better. The silence and secrecy only adds to the mystery.
This is a spoof post, right?
Yes, Granny.
@CHill:
Jesus Christ…relax! This was tongue-in-cheek humor.
Maybe none you know personally. But wake up and smell the qahwa.
That’s been covered pretty extensively by Mata.
Throw a temper tandrum loud enough and even they might be capable of appeasement.
The man has a 27 year history of interfaith dialogue. He is supported by rabbis and priests who know him and have worked with him. The center is more than just “a mosque” and if it gets built, will be open to those of all faiths:
CHill writes:
We have been.
@Donald Bly:
You must have the initiator of this thread confused with Dr. John and Mike’s America.
But sure, the initiator of this thread is posting his opinions simply to “goad people into conflict”.
Missy, thanks for #8.
@drjohn #10:
I covered that one, remember?
Seems to me that this issue comes down to two things: rights and politics.
The (proposed) builders rightfully own the property and are American citizens. To that end, in my opinion, it is dangerous for our government (federal, state or local) to infringe on their right to do with that property whatever they like. Such an act would set a precedent for property rights of other Americans to be similarly infringed whenever the government decided their planned building was distasteful.
Politically, this is undeniably a slap in the face and an insensitive place to build a mosque. If the builders were genuinely interested in “bridge-building” (Rauf’s words), they would see that this plan to build a mosque in this location is inciting more angst than unity. If their goal was sincerely to bring people together, they would do it somewhere else.
In my opinion, while I find the idea of a mosque near ground zero to be very offensive, it should not be the government that prevents it from being built. Given how much traction the public outcry against this building has already gotten, for the planners/builders to go through with it will surely expose their agenda for what it is: a symbol of conquest and indifference to the American people they claim they wish to endear themselves to.
@drjohn:
Unfortunately, there are comments posted all over this blog that are making the exact opposite point:
There are those here who have stated unequivocally that all Muslims are the same and that, by extension, all mosques are the same.
Shameful broad brush swiping is what it is.
Absolutely shameful.
Strangely, the number of people here who are willing to stand against such bigotry and stereotyping is very slim.
This is not the first time a religion has been targeted for extermination in our country.
@Word
Sure I do. It’s recall provided a little background for the contrast.
Wordsmith,
This is a little off topic, but I am working on the homework assignment you gave me in a previous thread. Here is an answer I received from Investor’s Business Daily regarding a poll conducted by IBD/Tipp concerning the attitudes of Muslims worldwide on the subject of the use of terror.
I rest my case… since the “initiator” of this thread openly admits it is an effort to goad the readers into conflict.
From Wordsmith’s Post #13
There are plenty of other topics we could spend time discussing/debating, I wonder to what end is the purposeful use of this blog to create conflict amongst the readers.
According to Bloviating Zepplelin’s blog this AM, it appears that public pressure has the muslim world rethinking about building the GZM. Going to move to another site in a gesture of reconcilation.
David Paterson offered an alternative site and was refused.
@wordsmith,
If no one gets your attempt at humor, maybe it wasn’t funny. Maybe people don’t need to “lighten up”, maybe you just weren’t funny. If the writer has to explain the humorous/sarcastic post it’s poor writing, not poor reading.
Skat, I have to agree. Truthfully, I at first thought the site had been hacked by some lunatic leftie until I recognized the name of the author.
Quick note:
The blog author shows his “halal food cart” article as being filed under “HUMOR”.
It’s really OK to sell foreign food at Ground Zero. Falafel is non-denominational. Also, tasty.
@A_Nonny_Mouse, Granny,
A blog tag of “humor” shows the author’s intention, but it doesn’t mean readers will actually get his sarcasm. I doubt many people read the tags before reading the post. Even if they do they still may not think it’s funny. I know I didn’t/don’t. The poster’s moniker is “wordsmith” which infers real writing/communication excellence – this fell flat.
As an aside, as a Christian I take offense at Christ’s name being used profanely.
@Chill,
Thumbs up!
Now, take this statement… and think about us normal Freedom loving Whitebread Americans… and understand that WE see this mosque as part of the creeping attack of the stealth Jihad…
Kind of puts this in a bit different perspective…
Pingback: Tweets that mention Peddle it Somewhere Else -- Topsy.com
@Aye Chihuahua: I have said for some time that Islam should be declared a terrorist organization. There are only two things I need to know about the Koran to base my decision:
(1) Muslims are REQUIRED to kill or convert the world. If they can’t convert me, they are REQUIRED to kill me.
(2) If anyone leaves the Muslim religion, they are to be killed.
Try again to convince me that this isn’t a terrorist organization.
The countries who are mostly Muslim have areas that infidels are not allowed because we are considered worse than the sweat off of a pig, and a pig is their most unholy critter.
What we should do in Iraq and Afghanistan is spray water with pig blood in it over enemy territory on a regular basis to match how long it takes a Muslim to cleans themselves after toughing any part of a pig. They believe that if they die while “unclean” that they won’t go to heaven and get their 72 virgins. Keep them unclean and they won’t dare fight until they are clean.
I remember one story where one country returned the body of one of the Muslims in the skin of a pig. This meant he couldn’t go to heaven because he was “unclean” and would go the other way.
Even these Moslems, you ignorant fool?
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/
http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/27/time-to-take-sides/
And your last little historical story was never true, but was used to motivate Jihadist killers.
You and your idiot-ilk are giving ammo to the Islamics. Those who are working to do EXACTLY what Jews and Christians did with their horrific biblical entries are NOT helped by the likes of you. Wanna see my big ol list of hateful crap in the Bible? I gotta LOT of em.
Can you say A B R O G A T E ? Google it.
You know NOTHING about Islam, nor the struggle going on within it to modernize and counter those who continue to preach hate. The battle lines of which are right here in America.
You (and millions of others) need to educate yourselves, or you are doing nothing but helping the radicals with your ignorant rantings; “See! They hate you!” is the cry of the day, and their bullying continues unabated.
There are indeed Wahib-based Imams running too many Mosques in this country, (and within the government itself) and until you know who the players are, you would help most by shutting up, and getting out of the way.
When and IF you ever grab a hold of your senses, and wish to actually LEARN something about this titanic struggle, just ask.
Some of us actually read/ask/learn.
FWIW
http://planet-iran.com/index.php/news/19414/comment-page-1
@Susiepuma
That’s a good site for people to bookmark. Not only for timely news, but for Persian/Iranian history as well.
@Patvann: @Patvann: If there are peace loving Muslims, they should branch off from the radical Muslims and form their own sect. They would have to declare they do not have the “convert or kill” mentality, that anyone can leave their sect without being killed, that non-Muslims are not infidels, that there is no such thing as “honor killings” in their sect, that men and women are equal, they let us into their places of worship without having to join their sect first, and their women can dress they way they want, then I will believe that that sect is at least trying to look like a peace loving religion.
Until that time, they are still terrorists who want to kill me. Someone who is a member of the Hell’s Angels, but doesn’t like some of the things they do, is still a Hell’s Angels.
People like you who say the Muslim religion is OK are like the people in some scary movies who see nothing wrong with someone or critter even though everyone else does. Later on the person or critter kills or eats that individual. Maybe when you see their open jaws coming at you, you will see them for what they are. Just like the movies, it will probably be too late. But, at least you knew them for what they are before you died.
You better run!
Here comes the scary Moslem monster!!!!
http://guyism.com/2010/08/miss-usa-rima-fakih.html
But But But ALL MOSLEM’S WEAR BURKHA’S!!!
And don’t ever respond to me unless you’ve actually read what I’ve posted and/or linked to…unless you actually DO enjoy looking like a ignorant hateful asshat.
Please check out Breitbart’s Big Peace for the article by Christine Brim titled “Ground Zero Mosque’s Hidden Websites: Follow the Shariah”. It tells how many years this has been in the planning, by whom, and it’s purpose for the extra floors to be added on, which is to INSTITUTIONALIZE SHARIAH IN AMERICA!!!
@Donald Bly #19,
Whatever the purpose behind creating conflict, it seems to have led to calling Smorgasbord an idiot who knows nothing about Islam – unlike the extremely knowledgeable Patvann! I may not agree with all of his statements, but certainly many of Smorgasbord’s ideas are backed by Andy McCarthy @ NRO – apparently another no nothing would doesn’t want to educate himself about Islam.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243899/tolerant-pose-andrew-c-mccarthy
“In the United States, there is no threat to religious liberty . . . except where there are high concentrations of Muslims. Not high concentrations of al-Qaeda sympathizers — high concentrations of Muslims.”
Oh, that we could ALL be as intelligent and knowledgeable as Patvann! Maybe Patvann can start tutoring Andy McCarthy!
@Smorgasbord – You might enjoy Andy’s viewpoint if you haven’t already read it.
susiepuma; hi, next time you go to MCDONALD, try to say as fast as you can,
I want a DITANGGUNG HALAL wraped up” .bye
with a poker face
@silvernana: Whenever you want someone to go to a link, just copy-and-paste it into your comment like this: http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2010/08/17/ground-zero-mosques-hidden-websites-follow-the-shariah/
It will automatically turn to a direct link to click and and take you there.
There are deep seated viewpoints on this topic. Wordsmith doesn’t want to inflame Muslim sentiment against America yet makes a habit of continually creating threads that inflame the sensibilities of a large portion of the FA readership. This is creating an animosity amongst individuals that otherwise agree on 99.9% of issues.
With 77 days left to rally the troops to deal a crippling blow to the progressive/socialist agenda, dividing our ranks by constantly foisting this subject to the forefront is counterproductive. If we don’t focus on the task at hand, worrying about radical Islam or even moderate Islam will be immaterial because we’ll be too focused on getting ourselves fitted for a new set of Mao Pajamas with an Obama Icon on one sleeve and a Hammer and Sickle on the the other.
Wordsmith: Do us all a favor and drop the subject… at least until after Nov 2nd. and then if you still need to get the last word in, you, as an official author on this site will have ample opportunity to stoke the fires of dissension.
I’m sorry… but who began the mosque debate again, Donald Bly? And who actually kept inflaming it when the debate wasn’t an echo chamber?
And who is the latest one trick monkey?
Hint… wasn’t Wordsmith. Wasn’t me, since I’ve never created one post on it. Aye’s created only one himself… the comic aspect version.
INRE dropping the subject. Dang… wanted this done from the onset because it’s not going to come out well. But with GOP candidates in their local districts, now using opposing their local mosques (i.e. NOT at ground zero) as a campaign point, the GOP has sealed their fate on this as an issue.
In other words, your request comes too little, too late. Damage is done.
@skat: @skat: I ain’t no idiot, but I do confes to bein reel ignorunt in a hole lot of aireas. Islam is one of um. All I need to no bout it is, convurt or kill, leve it and ya shud be killed, and women are jest a pece of property to be used and killed at the will of men. No further lurnin neded.
I read the article earlier. I had forgotten that I can’t go on certain Muslim property because I am unclean. I will cry myself to sleep for a long time over that.
Gee Mata… who the hells name is at the top of this thread as the author… Let me give you a great big clue just in case your cataracts are interfering with your vision…..
WORDSMITH – Doh!
You make it sound like opposing the mosque being built there is a bad thing for the GOP.. well guess again, it isn’t. If you think losing the Muslim voters in this country is a big deal… you’re absolutely mistaken.
Errr…far be it from me to be a contrarian
but do I hear someone trying to push the barn door closed?
I cannot fathom how some claim to believe in the Constitution and yet defend Islam and the building of this mosque? This is like Nazis are bad but Hitler is a righteous dude and I am inviting him over for dinner. Islam strips away all the rights, privileges and freedoms enumerated in the Constitution. Rather than welcome it, we should be doing everything to kill off the vile beast. We already accept that the KKK is evil, as are the Nazis; now Islam should finally take it’s place along side those ideologies.
SMORGASBORD: ULTRA funny, you should have your own show on FOX, bye
Then perhaps, CHill, you should “get out more” on the internet. First of all, the Muslim have the right to build Cordoba House according to local laws. That isn’t sitting well. Understandable. But it’s not just Cordoba House, as the local favorite conservative pundits like to say.
How about TN, WI and Temecula, CA… places no where near ground zero?
How about the Staten Island mosque they stopped, another Geller moment of triumph, and again no where near ground zero?
Or how about NJ, GA and Morada, CA… not to mention Switzerland and other Euro nations?
I’d say most of us recognize the conflict with Cordoba House. This does not adequately dismiss the other locations where mosques are under assault, when there is no conflict with 911 attacks.
Apparently my cataracts are far superior to your selective, senile memory, Donald Bly
Mike’s America – 4 posts
drjohn reader posts – 5 posts and one waiting in the wings
Wordsmith – 4 posts (except for funnies, which you all changed to a mosque post, and his joke “drawing” in response to your taunt INRE “fear”)
Curt – 1 post
Aye – 1 post
This makes for 9 + 1 (pending, which he’s triumphantly announced as coming soon) serious anti-Islam/mosque/Rauf posts by Mike’sA and Drjohn to Wordsmith’s 4 posts in counter. Curt’s post was neutral since it was about “evidence” that he put a question mark about as true. Aye’s was pure comic relief.
What was your senile point again about who isn’t letting it go?
@Donald Bly #19:
I was being sarcastic.
It would have been nice if we could have had a civil debate, minus the condescension; minus the lecturing; minus the personal insults. But the tone was set early on and only degenerated from there. Tried to apologize to Mike. He himself didn’t own up to his own contribution to ad hominems, ridicule, and snide remarks. Even apologized to you (don’t remember you responding, so don’t know if you saw it or even cared).
Donald, my purpose isn’t to inflame readers and create a conservative eat conservative civil war. I just wanted to provide an alternative look at a situation, rather than fall in lockstep with an amen chorus, intolerant of anyone straying the path and challenging the majority view.
@Donald Bly #37:
I’m not the one always trying to get the last word in. I have trouble enough as it is finding the time and energy to respond to the onslaught of angry commenters, as well as debate to those who wish to engage in it, rather than simple name-calling and insults. It takes two to tango, and you’ve been a more than willing dance partner.
But I have weighed in the consideration of Nov 2nd, and would have loved to have refrained. But this is like asking me to look away when I see my friends doing something I consider to be wrong and harmful.
Unfortunately, even though only about 19% of the country is paying attention to the story, it’s not going away, but is only heating up; especially after President Obama finally weighed in. It’s now entered the public mainstream. So should we ignore the news, or provide commentary on it? As far as I can tell, Dr. John’s done as much as I have to keep the issue alive on FA (and Mike before that, early on). My previous one took on a more neutral position, mostly to report what was news worthy- Obama commenting, finally.
Polling indicates majority Americans are opposed to the GZM. In the short term, this might not be a political loser for the GOP. But I fear the long term consequences; and I don’t see the opposition as being in the right on the issue. I acknowledge that there are thoughtful, intelligent, non-bigoted people who disagree with me. But along with that, we get comments like #42, #27, and aye’s list in #16. Whenever it’s pointed out, with rare exception do I see any of those who oppose the GZM call out bigotry for what it is and distance yourselves from the rhetoric. Of course, you yourself are in agreement in regards to Islam being a “gutter” “religion”. None of us has to like Islam. But to take on this conspiratorial belief that all Muslims are being commanded to kill or convert and that Islam itself is the enemy….this becomes an automatic win for the global jihad movement, and we become pawns in al Qaeda’s master plan. They themselves failed to convince the Muslim world to rally to their side. Yet you’d never know it from listening to the conservative din on Islam.
Opposing mosques being built everywhere, no where near ground zero, is just the fodder the lib/progs need to paint the tea party and conservative leaders (i.e. Newt, and now the revered Pamela Geller) as bigots. Congrats….
Need clarification? See @my links above to CHill. You think this is good?
… pardon me, but *you’re* mistaken.
@skat #25:
Geez…cripes!
I appreciate that there are no Christian radicals who will be issuing a fatwa for my head.
That said, if a non-radical Muslim takes offense and peacefully protests…say…Danish cartoons as opposed to engagement in violent rioting, would you be sympathetic and respectful of his belief in the Prophet Mohammad as opposed to, say, bin Laden’s belief in Mohammad?
You two can have your “last word”. My request was to focus on other issues… apparently that isn’t going to happen as long as these threads keep getting created to fan the fire. It’s your blog, I’m simply a guest here so i will acquiesce to your wisdom and spend my time elsewhere trying to get conservatives elected to office.
Andy and I have had numerous exchanges, and in every case of nuanced departure, I have gotten the upper hand. I am a big fan, and own all his books. It’s obvious that most of you have never heard of him before today. If you had, you would have remembered this from one of his recent columns:
This is primarily because unlike some of you, he never tried to put words/deeds into my mouth, and spent the time to READ what I wrote him, and his words; I never miss an article.
He, (and the rest of you) are 100% correct that Islam AS A HISTORIC WHOLE is exactly what you (and I, and Andy) say it is. 30 years of research and study made that one of the easy first-lessons…
When we’ve discussed the budding abrogation movement that is happening here and elsewhere, and he and I came to 100% agreement, that these folks must be supported, and that whole-sale bigotry against 1.2 billion human beings is 100% wrong. some of you loudly disagree with that premise. To those, I will now more loudly exclaim; “You hateful IDIOTS!!!”
I don’t think but 3 or 4 of you have truly bothered to look into what I’ve wrote, to get my “feeling” about this particular Mosque, it’s backers, and the constitutional constraints put upon us by those we all revere. To those people, I will break it down into simple terms;
Proposed Mosque: Bad form, bad manners, bad place. Last place one should be, even if the Mosque is deleted from the plans.
Mosque backers: Liars, apologist’s, and suspicious. Never trusted Rauf at all.
First amendment: The most important one we have. Works well in both directions. More powerful than Islam.
I fear no counter-posit by anyone in this regard, Andy included, and I will fight to my last breath against those who espouse bigotry and cant….Be they Moslem, or be they fellow TeaPartiers.
I’ll make this my last words on the topic, unless one would like to learn, rather than emote.
Donald, we would like what you want as well- getting conservatives elected into office. Not sure that Mata and I agree that the majority conservative stance on this issue is a clear political winner. But politics aside, I think she and I take the position we do because we feel that it is the right thing.
This isn’t about “getting in the last word”. I don’t see how you think Mata, myself, Aye, Patvann…any of us who express a different voice from yours is “fanning the fire” and extending the debate. I suppose it’d be easier if FA were merely an echo chamber of amen choir boys and gals.
I think that’s fortunately not the case.
My latest McCarthy book is The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America
@Smorgasbord #31: Are these Muslim women trying to convert or kill you? Or are they opposed to the Taliban’s puritanical Islamic extremism?
Do you support our Muslim allies around the world- targets of the global jihad movement- or do you condemn them as the enemy, as well?
I dont think it goes with the blog but I just want to mention that
THE HALF MOON is bloody in color, a very unusual color. bye to all.
Americans may be worried, I’m speculating, that Muslims are going to have special “rights” that exempt Muslims from “tolerant” behavior. “Moderate American” Muslims, if they exist, may not want some of those jihadi clerics coming to mosques in America. Maybe “moderate Muslims” don’t agree with Christians being attacked in Malaysia, but they never speak up – at least not to my knowledge.
I was driving in London, proves I’m crazy, with 3 daughters. We were trying to get to York. We got lost and wound up in the “Muslim” part of London. The women were in burkas, following their “man”. It was a frightening experience, if that makes me a Islamaphobe, so be it. I’d say it makes me alert to a dangerous situation.
By the Park Lane Hotel, in a Starbucks, 2 Muslim men having tea, cake, etc while a very pretty, miserable looking young wife sat by herself with a son about 3. They had NOTHING. She avoided all eye contact. Her husband did come over to chastise her while we were there.
Muslim women are subject to sharia in England.
I’m for tolerance and religious freedom, but I’m not for Muslims transforming America into a country with Muslim enclaves that don’t follow our laws and the Constitution.
@Smorgsabord,
You’s gots enuff lernin’ fer me!
@Donald Bly,
It seems that, for some reason, they want to denigrate Flopping Aces followers. Whether that is their intention, they are giving the impression that we are a bunch of ignorant, stupid, prejudiced hicks.
Whatsamatter, Smorgasbord… never made it beyond prospect status and feeling disgruntled? LOL
Now, as a friendly word of advice, I wouldn’t be making broad class warfare against the Red’n'White. And that you do so as a tremendously poor analogy makes me wonder if you actually know any 1%’ers personally, or just decided to watch too many B movies late nights.
@skat:
Malaysia Muslims Denounce Church Attacks
Wonder if you missed this post. Or this comment with link to 500 Muslim religious leaders who denounced the 2005 London bombs?
Muslims do speak out. And they oppose and are slaughtered by extremists on a regular basis.
I don’t think anyone here cares to endorse burkas. But who really wears burkas?
burkas, beheadings, honor killings, kill or convert….how many of the 1.5 billion actually live like this?
There’s much to deplore; and as inextricably tied as Islam is to culture, some of the practices can be traced back to regional cultural traditions and norms.
And there is a bit of difference between European Muslim immigrants and American Muslim immigrants.
Sorry if that’s the impression I’ve given you. Insults, condescension, lecturing, and denigration has not been a one-way streak, however. From my perspective, the intolerance has been coming from your side of the farm. Neither Mata, Aye, nor myself have called all conservative opposition “Islamaphobic” and “bigoted”. However, we’ve been lumped together and lectured to as if we are in the “Islam is a religion of peace” politically correct camp of CAIR-lovers.
From Wikipedia:
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Sarcasm is rarely “tongue-in-cheek” humor. You simply blew the humor away.
Patvann: Since I live under the NEW Dispensation called Christianity and not the OLD called Judaism, please relate all that “horrific biblical” stuff and a list of “hateful crap” you think exists that relates to Christians. Make sure you use it as moral equivalence to what is in the Quran. Idiot-ilks (this is often called name calling when is incapable of reasoned discussion) like me would truly like you to explain away the concept that love on one’s fellow man somehow relates to killing all the infidels one comes across or at least lying to them to get the upper hand.
Wordsmith: Your sarcasm was read correctly by me and others as a slam against our disagreement with you and others desire to see the mosque built. Raul still believes that America itself was one of the causes of 9/11 and refuses to this day to declare Hamas as a terrorist organization. Compared to al Qaeda he is probably a moderate but then Mussolini compared to Hitler was also a moderate.
I, for one, believe that Muslim have a right to live and worship as they see fit. They are also free to hold whatever hatred they have for their adopted country as long as they keep it to themselves. I have placed my life on the line numerous time in the Middle East to guarantee these freedoms. No one will be allowed to call me a bigot simply because I find the mosque offensive.
The community has the right to determine what can be built and what can’t be built via local codes and restrictions. I am a capitalist but that does not mean Walmart has the right to build where ever it wants without the backing of the local community. Many places across America have rejected Walmart eventhough the land would have been private and not violated existing building codes. The communities have the final word.
The President screwed up in a huge way by commenting on the issue. His press secretary had it right to begin with.
A voice of wisdom they’ve never heard
A vision of truth they left undisturbed
Why is their what and who is their when?
Evil so devastating again and again
@Mata
LOL!
Richard “Dicky” Smith (San Jose Chapter) used to live across the street from my folks…He would have the prospects mow the lawns, and take the garbage cans down for all the neighbors on the street. My mom dug the old dood, (after a while) and he sent me killer boxes of treats while I was away in the Navy. He died when I was away and I sure miss the old bastard!
In a sense in was what Hamas does in Gaza, but in reality, he really did like all of us, and we him. He never asked for a thing, and he made it very clear to his boys that nothing “bad” (illegal or immoral) was to go down there…UNLIKE Hamas, who uses the civilians around them as shields, and associations as barter.
@CHill:
Nope. You came in midstream into the debate. Click on the category and trace back to the comments sections. That’s what galvanized the post.
I didn’t want to see the “mosque” built. But what I oppose is the view that Islam itself is the enemy. It’s the view that al Qaeda wants us to have, but one which Muslim majority rejected. Their indiscriminate violence is opposed even by radical Islamists and fundamentalists who have rejected jihad theorists. But rather than marginalize the extremists, some apparently want to do bin Laden and Zawahiri a favor and broaden the war.
So do Ron Paul and Rand Paul and Michael Scheuer. How does holding the “blowback” opinion on America’s foreign policy make Rauf a radical Islamic terror sympathizer? He may well be; but so far the “proof” and “evidence” is no more alarming than views commonly held by anti-war Howard Zinn-reading blame America first liberals, and isolationist/non-interventionist blame America firsters, like the Paul Bearers.
One of bin Laden’s stated grievances against the U.S. was its presence on the Arabian peninsula.
Now al Qaeda theology doesn’t need an excuse to hate the West and the U.S. But just because someone may wish to “understand” what motivates the Islamic terrorists and points to U.S. foreign policy as a culprit does not make one a radical nor a terrorist sympathizer. There are far more quotes of Rauf condemning the attacks of 9/11 and Islamic terrorism.
How was your view concerning moderate Muslims enhanced by your sarcasm toward those who were offended by the possibility of the mosque being built? I still do not understand the connection.
I do not buy into the liberal concept that US actions or US citizens’ remarks will cause thousands of Muslims to join the ranks of al Qaeda as terrorists. This is pure fiction. A moderate Muslim is a moderate Muslim because of:
1. his personal upbringing, his personal experiences and his training
2. his intellectual and academic research into humanity
Terrorists are terrorists because:
1. training
Check out the background of most of the terrorists. Like the National Socialists in Germany, the children were abused early with Nazi training. How long have Muslim kids all over the world been trained to become jihadist. Try three decades or so. A Muslim does not go to bed at night after reading the FloppingAces website and then wake up to become a terrorists. Most Muslims do not even read English, let alone what US citizens and others say. Terrorist trained Muslims have been trained since they were children to the concept of jihad and Jew and infidel hatred.
One of my English professors once told the story of how she was working at a large New England university (Columbia, I think) and was working with ESL students who had not passed their TOEFL to get into the university. The students were asked to present a person who was their personal hero. A student from Oman, a sweet and beautiful young Muslim girl (according to the professor) did a presentation about how Hitler was her personal hero because he had killed all the Jews. She had never met a Jew, would not know a Jew if she saw one yet – training does wonders for young minds. The professor, BTW, was Jewish and the stupid little girl did not even know it.
Terrorists are not born overnight. They have been trained meticulously for decades. What I write or believe has absolutely nothing to do with “making terrorists.”
Also, I consider Truthers and the like to be extremists and not moderates. so your argument continues to fall flat.
@CHill.
Thank you for noticing that I said “Biblical”, not “Christian”. Now take that logic to the next step.
Once you do that, it negates the rest of your straw-man argument against my stance.
Just to head you off…I know full well the Jews have abrogated most of Deuteronomy, which is the same thing the reformers of Islam are trying to do in-between getting killed for it.
As a Christian, I love them as I love myself, so I want to help them succeed. Is calling all 1.2 billion of them “inherently evil and unfit to be Americans”, as some impart, part of that equation?
-Didn’t think so. Only an ignorant dolt would make such bigoted and un-Christian statements.
skat, obviously you are female and seem to suffer under the delusion that Muslim women crave servitude. Some may, some may not. In both the UK and in America, they have that choice. As suek and I have discussed on another thread, it was Muslim women that put the kabosh on Shariah in Canada because any extreme of that practice was anti women’s rights, as well as against the laws of the nation… and also was exactly what they fled to western countries to escape. Yet in the UK, where you became so terrified merely at the sight of women in burkas following men, the government prosecutes Shariah penalties outside of western law… i.e. stoning, beheading, honor killings, etal. Did this escape you?
Yet here you are, automatically assuming that westernized Muslim women crave exactly what they were escaping. WTF?
INRE those women in burkas… not required in many a Muslim/Shariah country, BTW… they had a choice. Just as Amish and Mormon women make their choices in relationships and religion. In Iran and other oppressive countries, they do not have a choice. Islam and Shariah are not practiced and reformed uniformly in all countries. Yet if they decide that is how they want to live out their lives, who are you to judge them?
Instead you make it seem as if the US is suddenly going to become Iran because Cordoba House gets built. Please…. such hyperventilation and wild speculations do little to address our very real problem manifesting itself in our Congress and WH… creeping Euro-socialsim.
INRE this:
This is a debate of a hotly contested issue, and for a myriad of nuanced reasons. No one on this site approves of Cordoba House. However more than a few – including GOP candidates running for office – disapprove of mosques being built all around the country…. no where close to ground zero. This is documented hyperbole, and now… because of bloggers and so called “conservative” leaders like Newt… it has become a losing campaign issue. We are all smeared by the extended hype of Cordoba House to all of Islam. For this, I have little forgiveness and hope the midterms damage from the fallout over the real issues of fiscal irresponsibility is minimal.
As I pointed out above, there are 9 (+ 1 pending post) that are anti-Islam/mosque/Rauf. There are 4 posts that are “not all of Islam” counters. This is more than 2 to 1 balanced in your particular opinion’s flavor… and yet you still whine.
If you can’t handle anything other than an echo chamber, without feeling personally assaulted, I suggest you’re hanging in the wrong venue. I might add that if you want to genuinely examine the “denigration”, I suggest you start reading the “ground zero mosque” category of both posts and commentary from the beginning, and ask yourself where the very liberal/Alinksy’esqe assault/ridicule INRE opinions originated. I believe that Donald Bly was shut down with his horse manure with the same facts, and decided to tell us we could have the “last word” as he put in his “last word.”
In other words, he had no answer to the absolute facts he tried to muddy, and bolted the sand box with his tonka toys…. for now.
If, after reading from June to today on all that has transpired, you continue to believe you … the majority opinion and post thrust here at FA… is still being assaulted as a “bunch of ignorant, stupid, prejudiced hicks”, then I guess you really don’t “…gots enuff lernin’ fer me!”
‘scuuuuuuuse me, but that’s “Muzzie Teamster” to you, Word…. LOL
@ilovebeeswarzone: I’ll wait until they make me an offer.
@Wordsmith: #53 Are these Muslim women trying to convert or kill you
I clicked on your link with Firefox and Safari and neither one took me anywhere.
“Do you support our Muslim allies around the world- targets of the global jihad movement- or do you condemn them as the enemy, as well?”
During World War II our problem wasn’t with the German or Japanese people, it was with their leaders. They were dictatorships that brainwashed their people to do as they were told. It is the same in Muslim countries. It ain’t the people, it is their leaders.
All I have said all along is that Islam was created to take over the world. Would you or anyone else support any of the other religions if they adopted the “convert or kill” mentality? By the way, that is how the Catholic church used to convert in other countries. That is all I need to know to not want anything to do with it. How many other countries will have to bow to their laws before you realize they go into a country with the idea of converting it to an Muslim State?
I am one of those who thinks this has been covered enough. Nobody is going to change my mind and I ain’t going to change anybody else’s. I believe that conservatives can disagree on things like this and not have it effect our focus to get the libs out of office.
If you have read my “Why is arguing with a truck driver like wrestling with a pig in the mud,” I think we have too many pigs wrestling in the mud here.
@MataHarley: #56 I’m going to show my lack of lernin again and guess that “Red’n’White” means the Hell’s Angels. If it was a bad choice, at least you got my meaning.
I have no idea what you mean by, “…never made it beyond prospect status….”
I’m guessing that “1%’ers” means Muslims. I have seen enough of how women are treated that I don’t like it. Try wearing the black burka in 100% temperature for a few minutes and see if you do. (No, I didn’t try it). I don’t sweat much and 80º is too much for me in shorts and short sleeve shirt. I even feel sorry for the cowboy movie women and their heavy clothing.
One thing this post has caused me to do is remove flopping aces from my favorites, meaning I’ll never be back. All the sniping and name calling serves no useful purpose. When 2 or more people on a thread call someone else an idiot, I’m moving on. And when an author attempts to get readers to attack each other while they sit back and rub their hands together, it’s time to move on. One poster here had it right. If your attempt at sarcasm falls flat, maybe it was your writing and not the readers interpretation of it. And it did fall flat. Wordsmith indeed. Signing off.
tewllsy: hi, MAY I say, that there is many posts that are completly diffrent from each others dealing with many subjects that you would surely be interested to survey:
JUST to leave is most radicaly cut some habit that you uses to enjoy,
I might say that with all the posts here,and they realy get them in, one after the other,
YOU are sure to miss on the fun, as we get to be a group who enjoy being together and enjoy the new commer who share sames ideas: YOU should reconsider also because of the incoming
important challenge, AMERICA will have to confront, and for this, we must stay together,as diffrent minds do for the same cause. bye
@CHill:
I agree that moderates aren’t going to align themselves with the jihad movement, even if they feel offense, insulted, or maligned by those who lump them in as indistinguishable from the kill or convert Islamic extremists.
However, you certainly aren’t winning any “hearts and minds”, neither. Most of the committed, ideological jihadists come from middle-class to upper class backgrounds and are well-educated.
Others are not so religiously devoted so much as attracted to a romanticized sense of political ideology against the great western imperial aggressor.
Not all radical Islamists are a part of the jihadi movement. You have what David Kilcullen refers to as “the accidental guerrilla” where we are “creating more terrorists”. Do you think abu Ghraib (how it was perceived and propagandized) created more terrorists and global insurgents or not?
I cited Kilcullen in the other post you responded in regarding how theology is not the driving factor when it comes to predicting violence. Kilcullen writes,
I’d say that there are those who fall into the camp of potentials for radicalization. They are vulnerable and “at risk” and are influenced by either our actions or the manipulating of perceptions of our actions (distortions, misperceptions, anti-U.S. propaganda). Some of these are also made to be “at risk” due to environmental factors of poverty, crime, and a sense of disenfranchisement and lack of acceptance and sense of identity-loss in immigrant communities. This creates opportunities for extremists to offer explanations for their miseries as well as a plan for a “way out”.
There are good deal of falsehoods and conspiracies (and “the narrative“) floating around in Arab nations.
Magdi Khalil and like-minded Muslims provide a counter voice. But they are undermined by those who feed into the Arab paranoia and jihadi propaganda that the West is hell-bent on persecuting Muslims and Islam.
Kilcullen further writes,
CHill:
That misses the point. Forget the Paul Bearers, then. Think in terms of holding political opinions. Does holding a political critique of U.S. foreign policy as a contributing factor automatically make one a terrorist-supporting radical?
@twellsy:
Evidence, please.
@Smorgasbord #66:
Try it now. Thanks.
Wordsmith:
Doesn’t sound to me like you are the “baiting for trouble” kind of guy as your sarcastic remarks made me think you were.
“However, you certainly aren’t winning any “hearts and minds”, neither. Most of the committed, ideological jihadists come from middle-class to upper class backgrounds and are well-educated.
Others are not so religiously devoted so much as attracted to a romanticized sense of political ideology against the great western imperial aggressor.”
Well-educated, you might have added, to become jihadist at a very early age. Bet you that each and every hard-core terrorist got the same education at the same age. Want to take me up on that bet? Most Arab nations now have schools that specialize in this kind of propaganda education. Again, the parallels between the National Socialists in Germany and the Islamist in the Middle East are remarkable. Historically, one can find a lot of “connect the dots” stuff from the Muftis visit to Germany in the 1930s and entire battalions of Muslim Nazi soldiers in the Balkans. The Nazis and these early jihadist shared the exact same agenda as far as Jews went. Compare the propaganda campaigns of the Nazis with those currently going on now among the population of Arabs and other Muslims. Same thing all over again.
Have read some of Kilcullen and he obviously knows what he is talking about. His writings do not necessarily disagree with what I wrote. Accidental terrorist. Want to make a bet about these accidental terrorists and their education at an early age as well?
Hearts and minds, you say. I have access to the heart and mind of one individual at a time. The majority of Muslims do not read English nor do they care what I or you write or think. I am in Thailand and I treat all people as a Christian would – with respect and charity. Go back to the latest article on your own blog and see who really cares about what is happening outside their own little life circle. Human nature – if it does not affect a human personally, priority drops immediately. The problem is the hard-core terrorist feeding the baby jihadists and accidental terrorists the same crap they were fed and fell for. Whose fault. The leadership of that particular country that allows and often supports such “brainwashing.” I strongly believe that the training has more to do with the budding terrorist than anything you or I or the whole Western world says. Matter of fact, we could probably all go to the Middle East with giant hugs and loving charity and the same amount of terrorist would show up to blow the crap out of all these huggers.
Not sure I buy into the concept of theology being a poor indicator of terrorism. Guess it depends on one’s definition of “theology.” Was National Socialism a theology? Is Marxism a theology? Certainly jihadism is a theology and not even Kilcullen could argue otherwise.
In the end, I believe that bigotry is an action and not a thought. To be a bigot one must act a bigot. Just because someone states that he or she does not like Muslims or does not trust Muslims does not make them a bigot. If, however, they treat a Muslim with disrespect based on these thoughts, then bigot they are. Just like that little Omani Muslim girl, clueless from her training as she actually was very attached to the English professor I wrote about who was a Jew who she professed to hate.
Seems to me we are singing the same song from the same sheet of music. Your sarcasm still sucked big time.
CHill….can’t really see much in that last comment to disagree with….’cept the last: I still like the suckage of my sarcasm in this post.
The thing is, jihadism is an ideological offshoot from Islam. And what I disagree with others on is in regards to Islam as practiced by those who do not fall into the enemy camp of violent radicalists, convert or kill extremists, militants, and committed jihadists.
Personally, I believe Geert Wilders has the right take on Islam. Proof – They’re trying to kill him.
@minuteman 26:
Are they trying to kill you too?
Aye – Don’t know and don’t care. Just trying to get the word out that Islam is a threat to this nation and bust balls on ocasion.
@minuteman 26:
Over and over you’ve tried to convince us here that Islam is the enemy and that all Muslims are the same…and that they’re eagerly awaiting the opportunity to kill or convert you.
Yet you “don’t know and don’t care” that someone or a group of someones may be trying to kill you?
Really?
Basically your premise is that Geert has a position that has made him a target, your position is the same as Geert’s but you “don’t know and don’t care” if you’re a target…
Seems your premise is flawed and that all muslims are not the same after all because, if they were, then you would be a target as well.
And if you really believed all you’ve written here you’d “care” enough to “know” for sure.
@Smorgasbord, no problem. Be happy to give you the inside education on scooter trash terminology.
Red’n'White is what we call Hell’s Angels. One point for you.
Prospects are those being initiated into the clubs. Like Patvann pointed out, they are given the low down deeds and trash tasks by clubbers as part of their initiation. They can be easily ID’d by only have half the “rocker bars” on their jackets. Rocker bars meaning the curved patches at the top and bottom of their logos. Prospects will not have the bottom rocker patch until they are full fledged membership. If you are around the clubbers, it’s those you keep an eye on, since they will be sent out for any mischief or nefarious doin’s.
1%ers are what we call all m’cycle clubs (or gangs, as many non riders like to call them). The phrase came into being because there was such a small percentage of those who ride who actually join clubs like these… Hell’s Angels, Vago, Mongols, etc.
Well, twellsy, we’ll be sorry to see you go, but you must have been desperate for an excuse. No one called anyone an “idiot” on this thread. Now Smorgasbord did get called an “asshat”
… then again, he’s come up with some pretty extreme solutions. Besides, he’s been around a while and I’ve never seen him sulk away or not stand his ground… right or wrong… on his opinion. He’s not a thin skinned kind of guy.
But Smorgasbord perceived himself being called an idiot (instead of asshat… LOL), and skat felt like she was being called part of a “bunch of ignorant, stupid, prejudiced hicks” Her words, and those have never been uttered by the rest of us.
Sure can’t help if those being debated decide they’ve been personally insulted. But the name calling you are using as your moment to exit is not only sparse, but mostly a figment of imagination.
Had you done what I suggested to skat above, and go back thru the ground zero category of posts and comments, you’ll find that the group assault/ridicule originated with the more outspoken anti-Islam/mosque/Rauf crowd…. first labeling anyone who disagreed as “Muzzie Teamsters” or Muslim apologists. Then claiming erroneously that we had labeled everyone who opposed as Islamaphobes. I might add that we were also all accused of being “dense”, “naive” and completely uneducated to Islam in general.
Therefore the hypersensitivity and exaggerations being bandied about are all of their own (the anti-Islam/mosque/Rauf group) making. Apparently it was their actions which, as you claim, have driven you away. So if you are leaving, it would be quite nice for you to accurately identify just which group was being demeaning.
To all:
Wow what an exciting thread. Now this is why I love Flopping Aces. I’m not personally interested in any sort of echo chamber where everyone agrees without any sort of dissent.
Oh and Wordsmith, I think your article was funny and I got that you were just being a bit of a smart ass! Hah
Ron. H
Aye – I’ve been shot at before (2 tours in Vietnam) and can handle that part of it. My concern is more for this country than anything personal. I still play with things that go bang and have a permit to carry. Living in South Texas, drug gangs are a more imediate threat, however there are many like myself that will not allow Islam to do to this country, what it is now doing to Europe and other parts of the world.
@wordsmith,
Agreed that some, very few Muslims speak out against violence against Christians or against other Muslims. Is it because of fear of reprisal? If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with the fanatics, the fanatics wouldn’t be Imams, revered, etc. If the vast majority of Muslims are moderates, just wanting to peacefully co-exist, they have the power to take back their religion, at least in America and England.
I don’t see evidence that Muslim American immigrants are different than Muslim English immigrants were. I really doubt Brits ever expected Muslim women to be wearing burkas, be subjected to sharia courts, etc. It’s a slow progression – just as Muslims explain. When the President gives speeches praising Muslim women clothing (Cairo) he’s sending the wrong message.
Without a doubt, if Americans weren’t afraid of offending Muslims, no one would support this mosque at GZ. Reaching out is one thing, I’m sure everyone supports that. Different rules for Muslims is entirely different – that’s what this mosque represents.
@CHill61,
I agree with you. I don’t think Americans are creating terrorists by opposing the Mosque.
I did see the other posts @ the time they were posted. WOW! The hateful comments, insults between Flopping Aces bloggers, obviously FA bloggers insulting each other, and followers were flying. So it’s strange, to me, that FA would again stir up animosity with such a sarcastic post. In my opinion, the tone of the bloggers towards followers has sounded like elected Democrats lecturing their dumb-dumb constituents – not towards me, but towards some of the others. I don’t think it serves a useful purpose, but it’s your call. Flopping Aces has been a great site.
Ron H: hi, I bett, it must hurt to be smart, sometimes, SPECIALY when you dont want to be. bye
Haven’t had time to catch up, so I haven’t read them yet
Just adding links to more info:
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/08/bloombergs-quiet-investments-in-sharia.html
http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2010/08/17/ground-zero-mosques-hidden-websites-follow-the-shariah/
To ilovebeeswarzone:
I must admit that I didn’t understand your post:
“hi, I bett, it must hurt to be smart, sometimes, SPECIALY when you dont want to be. bye”
Was that an insult or a compliment? I realize that there is a language barrier but the way you phrased your post sounded a bit insulting. If this is not the case then I apologize for misconstruing what you said.
Ron H.
@twellsy: While I would hate to lose any reader the last thing I want this blog to become is an echo chamber of “right on!” “your right!” and so on. While every author on here has conservatism in common, its all on different levels…which is just what I was striving for when starting FA.
Ron,
A total side note.
It’s good to see you around.
Don’t make yourself so scarce.
Thanks Aye!
I read FA daily but don’t always comment because truthfully it can be a bit intimidating to tread the waters here. You are all so knowledgeable and quick on the draw so I feel as though I really have nothing of substance to add. I will however chime in just to let you guys know that I’m still around and “lurking”.
I love this site!
Take Care
Ron H.
Heh. Just tried to edit the comment above, since I see that the “bigpeace” link had already been posted. I did the “click to edit”, and it said I didn’t have permission to edit. ????? (213+ minutes left)
Since Muslims are exempted from Obamacare for religious reasons, as it is, from my understanding, against their faith to purchase insurance because they considered it a form of gambling; are they exempted from having to carry automobile insurance and homeowners insurance also?
Or… since driving is a privilege not a right, if they carry auto insurance in order to afford themselves the convenience of automotive transportation, would they then also be able to claim religious conviction in order to opt out of Obamacare?
It is my understanding that those that claim religious conviction as a tool for opting out of Obamacare are exempt from the penalties for not carrying health insurance. If, at some point they become extremely ill and then choose to opt in to a pre-existing condition plan… would any penalties that they had previously been exempted from be retroactively collectible? Or… will they simply be considered a special class?
Just curious….
Ron H: hi, I surely did not say that to insult, sorry if it sounded that way,
I LIKED your comment SO I meant that WORDSMITH is VERY smart and , HE gave us so many comments, that sometimes he must have feel tired of us, and just wanting to drop everything.
I apologyse for not being more clear before. bye
A moderate Muslim speaks:
we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel.
Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?
As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.
Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wzDdzs6e
@ Mataharley 63,
No, I suffer no such “delusions”. Some women may chose to wear a burka, but many are forced to wear one. Muslims women may want to escape sharia, but that isn’t happening for many because Western governments are being “tolerant” allowing Muslims to engage in activities that no one – Christians, non-Christians, etc, would be allowed to engage in. It isn’t only the Muslim “women” unable to escape Islamism when Americans, French, Brits cave in – it’s also Muslim men. It’s just much more visible for women with the burkas.
At any rate, somewhere, it may have been on O’Reilly, the author of the above article said that “political correctness” regarding Islam since 9-11 has made life in the West much harder for “moderate Muslims.
@Donald Bly #90:
Several years ago one of them ran into my car twice in the same parking lot. (He was unable to back up his car within the allotted space.) When I asked to see his license, he produced a Virginia license with an Hispanic name on it. He was no Hispanic, and neither was the woman in the car with him. He ordered her to get back in the car in a language other than English or Spanish, and she meekly complied. When I asked to see his insurance card, he first gave me an optical insurance card. When I asked to see his car insurance, he gave me another card. I did not recognize the name of the company, but I wrote down all the information while he watched. Later I informed my insurance company of the accident and gave them the man’s insurance info. They called me back and informed me there was no such company. I called the number myself and it just rang off the wall. Sooo. It seems that at least some of them have paperwork, but it’s bogus.
@Skat
WoooP!! THERE IT IS!!!
If it wasn’t for all the damn lefties on the planet, none of this “creeping” Sharia would be happening. Along with them supporting the terrorist-side of the “Palestinian issue” since the 60′s, and too-many folks-to-list keeping us on the middle-east oil teet (don’t drill here! No nukes! No coal!)
-It’s no wonder they feel more emboldened after every step…and richer.
@ Mataharley,
It’s irrelevant whether “British Muslim women” want to wear burkas. Do Muslims want to be “British”? Do Muslims want to be “American”? If they do, it’s understood that some “customs” are unacceptable. I might want to move to Saudi Arabia and become a citizen for any number of reasons, but I’d have to expect to wear non-American clothing. I also object to burkas for security reasons. Muslims can wear it all except the head covering with little slits for eyes. If they want to wear a burka, go to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. What if some religious group suddenly had a revelation they always had to wear ski masks?
Since I so obviously think like a woman, I’ll say I doubt Muslim women want to wear that garb – not the burka. How many of those women are free to say what they want? How many of those women just picked up and moved to England on their own so they could exalt in their new found freedom and wear a burka?
@Patvann#94
Agreed!
@Wordsmith: #53 All I get is a message saying the page can’t be found. Women never have wanted to talk to me. I guess Muslim women are the same.
Thanks for the reply Toothfairy… I realize your account is anecdotal but it does seem that the “protected classes” can exploit the system without a great deal of outcry from the greater population because the devil is in the details and when bills are 2500 pages long and no one has read them before they get passed… a lot of injustice can be accomplished in a single sentence.
skatblue, sometimes with a debate that has gone on since June, we end up having to repeat things we said in the past. So it’s like playing catch for someone who walks into a movie halfway thru, and wants to know what the plot is. And in this instance, I have said in the past that I am against the banning of any clothing in the US (not Saudia Arabia or other nations… *my* country). But with that are some caveats where face coverings should be banned for security… check points, perhaps universities as that Shariah loving country, Syria, is doing to their own Muslim population for safety, courtrooms, police stations, etc.
I also fail to see why you’d compare you going to Saudia Arabia, and accepting the fact you have to adopt your clothing as that is a good thing. Or that we should adopt the same attitudes. It is why Muslims escape these oppressive rules by coming to the western countries. Daisy Khan, and most American muslim women do not wear burkas, hijabs or other 3rd world Muslim country clothing. But for some reason, everyone thinks that Shariah councils means everyone… not only Muslims… are all the sudden going to be forced into burkas. This is truly absurd. Look at Egypt, Pakistan, Kuwait… and number of Muslim countries where their population dresses in modern clothing, albeit not as suggestive as here in the States. Hang, even the Iranians… most certainly under oppressive religious rule… don’t have a nation of women in burkas. So sometimes I have to wonder where all this BS comes from when it so contradicts with reality.
I think that should answer your next question, about how many women and their families did escape to Canada, US and other nations to escape this. Suek and I went back on forth on this women wanting oppressive Shariah after escaping oppressive nations on another thread. You may find it interesting to read that exchange all the way thru, starting with this comment that started it all. Please note that one of the links she, herself, had provided when trying to prove women were victims and oppressed in the UK had… in the same article… the fact that the Canadian Muslim women were instrumental in putting the kabosh on a Shariah parallel law system there.
I did not support the Archbishops advocation of Shariah in the UK in 2008, and still don’t. I don’t support it here. But then, it really depends upon what they are asking, doesn’t it? Obviously… as suek and I agree… no Shariah council or arbitration/mediation system can decide and implement something that is against our nation’s rule of law. So I don’t fear that stoning, beheading and honor killings are suddenly legal in the US. Hang, they aren’t legal in the UK either. But I do see where they need to resolve some civil differences, such as divorce settlements. This isn’t much different than the Jewish courts we have here in the US.
But people hear “shariah”, and all they can think about is Afghanistan. Shariah and Islam are implemented differently in every country. In the UK, the women can choose not to have an issue settled in Shariah councils, and use the British system instead. It requires voluntary participation by both parties, just as arbitration/mediation panels do here in the US. They are not without options. However they have to decide if their freedom to take that option is more important than remaining under an oppressive spouse.
And as I pointed out in the other thread, there is little difference in fearing death or abuse from a Muslim husband and a battered non Muslim wife who has to make the same choice. Choose life and freedom, or servitude and/or death or injury. In our country, in Canda and the UK, Muslim women have that choice. But in other countries, they do not have the alternatives.
I don’t anticipate the US becoming Afghanistan/Shariah, and would be armed and ready if anyone ever tried. That would take a Muslim violent overthrow in this country they’d never survive.
@Donald Bly: “Since Muslims are exempted from Obamacare for religious reasons, as it is, from my understanding, against their faith to purchase insurance because they considered it a form of gambling; are they exempted from having to carry automobile insurance and homeowners insurance also?”
The Amish and Mennonites can also be exempted from the mandatory health insurance requirement on religious grounds. (The same insurance/gambling issue.)
Some Mennonites do drive automobiles. In Georgia, a recent bill would allow them the option of self-insuring instead of purchasing auto insurance policies.
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2010/04/bill-to-permit-mennonites-to-self.html
skatblue…
Be aware that Mata is blind to the intent of those muslims who wish to impose islam on the rest of the world. To argue is pointless. She chooses to ignore reality when she says “I think that should answer your next question, about how many women and their families did escape to Canada, US and other nations to escape this.” in spite of the fact that _no_ women and their families “escape” to Canada, the US and other nations. No woman can leave a muslim country without her male “escort” whether it’s father, brother or husband. In fact, she can’t even leave her home without an attendant male. She has no family – the children, after a certain age ( I don’t know what it is) belong to the father, and she cannot take them away – even if he divorces her. Mata wears rose colored glasses. So women cannot escape _to_ Canada or anywhere else. _Maybe_ once they’re in Canada etc, they might be able to escape – though I doubt it. She is certain that all muslim women will reject the demands of shariah as soon as the political system in which they find themselves will permit it, and that will move muslim males to accept a reformed islam.
In fact, Mata…if what you say is true, then it is even more important that we support those you claim are moderates who are trying to break away from traditional islam by recognizing what it is that they are trying to escape from, and supporting them by proclaiming loudly and clearly that we will never tolerate islamic “justice”.
@Mate
INRE to your last 3 paragraphs.
Ya know I luv-ya-baby, but there has been a couple of instances where some leftist judge has indeed “left it to custom” while ignoring our own laws. Fortunately, the appeals process worked, and the cases were adjudicated in a manner consistent with actual American law.
(“Law! What a concept!”, he spits)
It was in New Jersey and another, and I owe ya a link, but if left to leftist’s, the camel will poke it’s nose into our tent very far. It’s the leftist’s that we must remain focused on, not Islam. For it is they who enable the Islamofacist.
Here’s something that is maybe being overlooked in all this GoundZeroMosqueStuff. ™
If the left is so damn adamant about separating church from state (thank you Hon. Black, you KKK-member, SOB) then why is the Obama/Clinton State Dept paying Rauf to hobnob with whom ever he’s hobnobbing with, in absolute secrecy?
What in the H, E, Double toothpicks is he doing/saying while acting as a de-facto representative of this country?
Now THERE’S a question that the Right ought to be screaming about!
Or are we now OK with using tax money to send the Archbishop of L.A. to Poland and Mexico under a press blackout to do whatever he deems needs doing, done? (untangles tongue)
(This comment sponsored by: Rhetoric R Us.)
@minuteman 26: The religion of peace doesn’t want to kill anybody. They are just playing with him. They really have quite a sense of humor, don’t they?
@Minuteman # 26
So do I, (CC in Cali is still allowed) and when that day comes. I’ll be right in front of you.
I served, too, and my son does now. Please don’t think that I am blind to any threat that may be brewing.
@Smorg.
Too many do want to kill. Over 15,500 dead by their hand since 9/11. Learn that most don’t, and that over half of that sad number were other Moslems. Learn also that over 80% of all “Moslem countries” don’t speak/read Arabic, and that in most of those same countries, the only “official” Koran is written in Arabic.
YOU might know more about Islamic history than most Moslems.
Honestly think about that.
@suek 100,
Got it. Time to move on – thanks for the info.
Skat…please use either skat or skatblue as your username, not both. Thanks.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a Sufi Muslim–not exactly the sort whose cultural center would likely serve as a front for Islamic extremism.
>>The Amish and Mennonites can also be exempted from the mandatory health insurance requirement on religious grounds.>>
So…what do you have to do to get the exemption?
(I feel a conversion coming on…!)
>>Time to move on – thanks for the info.>>
No need to move on – just wanted to catch you up on the situation. The ground has been plowed _multiple_ times, and to mix a metaphor or two, our positions are pretty well cast in concrete. Plows don’t do much with concrete… except maybe push it around a bit!
suek, shame on you for your demeaning commentary, and chutzpah presumption to speak for me. Apparently, dialogue with you is fruitless, and you continue to misrepresent not only my views, but insult me as to my involvement with researching the global Islamic jihad movements for almost a decade.
I am not “blind” to anything, save perhaps to my assumptions that you actually comprehend a dang thing I debate with you one on one. I assure you, I won’t give you the benefit of that doubt again.
The differences between you and I is I am well aware of the minority jihad goals, and also well aware of the Muslims (especially women and more modern westernized families) endeavoring to reform Islam.
And I have no idea where you come up with the “no women and their families can escape” commentary. You back that up extreme “no women can…” with what source? Are you unaware of movements similar to Civil War railroad underground that do this every day? Are you aware of even the small numbers of American women, married to Muslim men that attempt to implement oppressive anti-American rights, that do this battle daily?
Where there is a will, there is a way. And westernized women are not the only Muslims that want reform. They are present here, and in other western nations. They are not clamoring for those nations to revert to Afghanistan…. save in your limited views and fruitful imagination. Worse yet, you even ignore their own successful battles, merely to spread your blanket victim mentality.
Yes, it is important. So where are you on this issue? I’ll tell you where…. you manage to smear them, and their chosen religious beliefs, with your every comment. You impose your own infidel “scholarly” knowledge as arrogantly superior, by painting all Muslims as terrorists and craving oppression.
You will win no friends amongst them with your pervasive ignorance on the implementation of Shariah councils or their laws from country to country. It’s a one size fits all mentality with you, and no amount of evidence alters that.
And your demands they hurdle hoops to meet your satisfaction are equally reprehensible. If you said, “Mata, prove to me you agree with me, or believe this, by doing …. or I don’t believe you… tagiyya”, I’d personally say, screw you. I need to prove nothing to you. I wouldn’t care if we were in 100% agreement. Your demands for performance are nothing short of personally offensive.
And do me a favor. If you don’t quote my words exactly, and provide the links, never presume you have the power to present how I think to anyone again.
>>Time to move on � thanks for the info.>>
No need to move on – just wanted to catch you up on the situation. The ground has been plowed _multiple_ times, and to mix a metaphor or two, our positions are pretty well cast in concrete. Plows don’t do much with concrete… except maybe push it around a bit!
Except that his claim to “Sufi-hood” is not backed up by a traceable timeline.
-His vitiae is not public, except where and when he want’s it to be, and his past commentary leaves much to be desired. Especially if one was indeed a true force for spiritual-only Islam.
@Aye Chihuahua:
Aye Chihuahua #76
“Are they trying to kill you too?”
Let’s try an experiment. Write a letter to the Muslim organization telling them that you will never be converted to the Muslim religion and include the Mohammad turbon head picture and let’s see what response you get.
Look how many people were killed over that picture. The way I understand it, the countries the people were killed in, the press didn’t print the picture. What’s your next defense for the “religion of peace?”
If somebody new to FA started reading the posts on this story, I am guessing they would think that FA is a Muslim web sight.
I still don’t see why you and the others at FA have a problem with people believing the way they want to about the Muslim religion. I have mentioned several times that I am not a church goer, but you haven’t tried to get me to join one. Are you trying to convert me to Muslim. I think it is fair here to ask what your religious preference is, if you have one, and also the ones who seem to be trying to convert us to Muslims.
Why can’t we stop the bickering and let each person have their own opinion? My mom was one who always had to argue with people who disagreed with her. She would go on and on about the littlest things she disagreed with, to the point that not many people wanted to be around her. I hope that isn’t what’s going on here.
MataHarley #79
I grew up in small town USA, and glad I did. I also grew up a loaner and am still far behind the lingo of almost everything. Some of it I wish I hadn’t learned.
>>Are you unaware of movements similar to Civil War railroad underground that do this every day?>>
>> Are you aware of even the small numbers of American women, married to Muslim men that attempt to implement oppressive anti-American rights, that do this battle daily?>>
No. I am not aware of either such actions.
Links. _PLEASE_.
As for the rest – I’ll let others form their own opinions and judgments.
@Donald Bly: Here’s some more info on Muslims and car insurance. On IslamQA.com there is an article titled “Ruling on car insurance.” It is also identified as “fatwa No. 102969.” (I’d include a link, but they didn’t provide one.) The ruling declares:
In the UK, however, they seem to have figured out how to come up with halal insurance. An article printed in the Daily Mail on August 16, 2008, provides the details. You can read it at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1045959/Sharia-car-insurance-For-time-Muslims-buy-policies-line-Islamic-lawhtml.
I couldn’t find any info on Islam car insurance in the US. Maybe Salaam Hala Insurance will open a US branch.
Exactly… and that means reading the linked cyber conversation… which you did not include in your presumptuous summary… themselves.
I, however, provided the link to the conversation. A “we report, you decide” moment which, apparently, you decided to usurp with your comment, and skat decided to blindly accept as accurate.
oh yes… as to the prior… of which you are blissfully unaware… do your own dang homework this time. I’m done doing it for you.
Correction #114: Make that “Salaam Halal Insurance.” (I tried to edit the spelling on the previous post but the text jumped up and down like a demented rabbit, so it was impossible to put the cursor where I wanted it.)
Mata…
I _think_ I’ve read every comment you’ve made in any of the related threads. I _think_ I’ve checked out all the links you’ve provided. Perhaps not. I’ll try to go back and check. But. I have _never_ seen one that indicated what you claim. I even asked you specifically for some suggestions for reading what you feel is a more “balanced” view of islam – but you declined to provide any names, links or any other info. Surely it wouldn’t take that much to copy and paste. If for some reason you don’t want to do so on a public forum, I’m sure my email addy is available to you.
Request is still in the air. Certainly I’m not the only one here who would appreciate seeing info that would clarify to us why you hold the positions you do.
@Smorg.
(Please Aye…Lemme have this one)
In regards to your first paragraph..,.Do you really wanna do this? You might have the trucker mentality, but you have just met an immovable object. Old stubborn SeAL’s don’t move very easy.
Let’s play out that scenario for real, shall we?
Go to: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/contact.php
Enter in your “challenge”, and direct it to the attn. of M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D.
Refer to this post, and in particular YOUR comment/challenge. Hell, post the question itself, and if ya need a image, I got 6 ready.
You have 24 hours to do so. If you do not verify that you have submitted it, I will submit it within the context of your posit. I’ll post the text of my query for you to approve beforehand, but I’ll submit it regardless, if you do not respond within 4 hours.
I’ll be happy to make any changes you want, but only during that 4 hour window.
Are you up to the challenge?
In reality, this last comment by you PROVES that you never bothered to read what I’ve posted, even after I gave you the link many comments ago. Yet you still persist. A link that is connected to those you refuse to admit actually exist.
I will repeat. You have met an immovable object, and ya shoulda learned something from your mom, other than spending your life fighting to be out from her psychological maladies.
Keep pushin…Please. It tickles.
@Smorgasbord:
Actually my experiment and the testing of Minuteman’s hypothesis has already been conducted. His hypothesis was found lacking because if all Muslims were the same, and all Islam/Muslims are the enemy, as he claims then he would have already been targeted in the same fashion that Wilders has.
Not only has his hypothesis been proven to be faulty he demonstrated through his “don’t know and don’t care” statement that everything he’s been typing all this time was nothing more than just words.
Hyperbolic much?
This site is full of a wide variety of topics ranging from politics to current events.
If FA were indeed a “Muslim site” do you think for one second that the hateful, vile, bigoted things that have been written here about Islam would still be visible for all to see?
You are certainly entitled to whatever opinion you wish to have about Islam or any other topic. No one is depriving you of that.
Of course, if you choose to post your opinion on Islam or any other topic then you should be willing and prepared to have your viewpoints challenged.
If you don’t want to be challenged on your opinions then you’re certainly welcome to keep them to yourself.
No, I haven’t. I don’t figure that it’s my place to proselytize you here on a public forum to try and get you to go to a church.
Now, if I knew you in real life I may invite you to come to church but I certainly would never force my beliefs on you or anyone else.
Sorry, but I had to literally laugh out loud at that one.
Trying to convert you to Muslim? Really?
Have I tried to kill you or convert you? Have I subjugated you or threatened you?
Of course if all the things written on these pages about all Muslims being the same and all of Islam being eeeeviilllll then one or more of those things would have happened already right?
Well, if you feel the compelling need to know, I am Southern Baptist. I grew up in a Southern Baptist family, and my family and I are active in our local Baptist church. I’ve posted that information once already.
No one here is trying to convert you to Islam any more than we are trying to proselytize you to become a Baptist or Jehovah’s Witness or Rastafarian or anything else.
That’s an absurd argument with absolutely zero foundation in fact.
Again, you’re entitled to whatever opinion you wish to have.
If you don’t want your opinions challenged on this topic, or any other, then don’t post them for public consumption.
suek, you have never asked me for a “more balanced view” of Islam reading. But I can tell you that Wordsmith has provided those at every opportunity.
But INRE women, which is where you and I have focused our comments, again I refuse to do your homework. Sorry… but for this 48 to 72 hours, I have no time to do it for you. But I will say at least three names for you to do your own.
Shirin Neshat, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Rifqa Bary … the last of which even the notable tea party leader ‘phobe, Pamela Geller, has worked to capitalize on for her 15 minutes of fame, as if it were her own achievement. All women to be applauded for seizing the opportunities of escape. The first one even brought it to Hollywood to appeal to the most base of education levels.
Well, I see that during the time it took me to compose my response in #120 PatVann pretty much wore you down to a bloody stump.
You may need to catch your breath for a little bit before you respond and that’s understandable.
Evidently, Smorgasbord, you are as math challenged in the Wm Ayers “social justice” public education curriculum as Donald Bly.
As of 24-48 hours ago, the posts that were anti-Islam/Rauf/Cordoba house were one more post than 2 to 1 against the counters.
What… no “echo chamber” to please you? Not enough “majority” to float your boat?
Too bad…. go sulk over a brew somewhere, dude, and get over it.
Oh… Smorgasbord… don’t forget that while you’re in that brew bar, watch for those half rocker bar prospects! You know how evil they are too… LOL
Yup… I know that, Patvann. We’ve been there, done that… suek and I. As I said, it’s no surprise that a lower court performed a travesty of justice. But that is why we have appellate courts.
The genuine travesty… as I again said before… is if the higher courts upheld the lower court’s erroneous judgement. As our system worked as it should, I see no problem For two reasons:
1: There is recourse all the way up to the SCOTUS and
2: There are always robed ones who should be stripped of their robes, IMHO. The NJ judge was one. Suggest you talk to the Jersey’ites about that one. But he isn’t the first judge to issues a bad ruling, nor will he be the last. However there is another level available to us via our system. And so far, and in most instances, it is working as planned.
>>suek, you have never asked me for a “more balanced view” of Islam reading. But I can tell you that Wordsmith has provided those at every opportunity.>>
Not true. I’ll provide a link tomorrow. I too am out of time at the moment.
Finished with thread #1. Gleaned one bookmark from Word on that thread. Which I will check. Also dug out one of my own – no that’s not true – someone else (unk at the moment) provided it. When I finish, I’ll provide a list.
>>Shirin Neshat, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Rifqa Bary>>
Of these three, I’m familiar with two. I don’t think you give Pam enough credit.
I’ll research Shirin Neshat.
That’s pretty slim pickin’s to rest your faith on…
suek, Geller has nothing to do with Rifqa… save trying to capitalize on her efforts for personal gain. Maybe… as I suggested before.. you should delve into Geller’s own efforts to stop an Arabic school and her involvement in stopping a mosque being built at Staten Island (just a sample of her personal views). For years, Geller considers all of Islam a threat, and doesn’t know how to separate Islam from jihad.
It’s a common problem. But Geller makes a living exploiting it.
BTW, suek… INRE this:
My thanks for revising recent FA history and commentary. I appreciate your efforts. Genuinely.
@skat: “we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel.”
So, us non-Muslims are still considered “infidels” to the “moderate” Muslim. What are “moderate” Muslims supposed to do with us “infidels” according to the Koran?
After Muslims conquer a territory they build a mosque or convert the major government or religious building into a mosque. It is a symbol of there conquering that territory or country. They want to show the world that they conquered that part of the US territory. They are turning the Congress building into a mosque.
@Mata
It’s those facts that keep me optimistic, and on the side of what’s left of our constitution.
The next (sooner rather than later) focus that the TeaParty (and the rest of us) eyes ought to be on, is judges. Closely followed by taking back the school districts.
Yup, Patvann..… me, too!
Reality is that lower court decisions rarely give the desired result. You have to have the money to keep going to get justice. But that’s a whole other story. Ultimately, however, the planned system does work.
@Smorg 129
Maybe you thought I was being hyperbolic. That maybe I WASN’T calling you out on your “challenge”.
That would be wrong. White on rice, stink on doo. I’m your new best-friend, buddy! Bored and retired, with nothing else to do.
You read what I wrote in comment #119, where I took up your dare. And you come back to this thread and pick out a 37-comments-ago post to respond to?! (#92)
Weak. Ya didn’t even have the stones to just say “Eff-off”.
I want real bad to see how much weight you’ll REALLY give to your resolute and sacrosanct opinion…(#112) Ya know… that we are all supposed to simply accept your opinion without any bothersome questions. Like your mean-ol’-mom didn’t ever do.
I just got my first hint, and ya got about 22 hours left.
Any questions? Clarifications? Wanna see how I get when I don’t like ya?
There’s an article on Yahoo today titled “Some Muslims Question Mosque Near Ground Zero.” You can read it at:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_ground_zero_mosque_us_muslims
There are some new names here to add to the “moderates” list. It’s good to see that more of them are speaking out.
@suek #126:
Not true what? A link to what?
@suek #118:
suek, perhaps what Mata means about “do your own homework” is that a more “balanced” view, or perhaps one that is an alternate view, can be readily found if that’s something you seek in earnest.
Go to your local bookstore and pick up Sumbul Ali-Karamali’s The Muslim Next Door. A book I’ve cited a couple of times, already. If you don’t wish to buy it, flip through to chapter 7 on Women in Islam and simply empty your cup for one brief moment; just suspend what you know or think you know and listen to a different perspective from someone who lives Islam and who does not feel oppressed by her faith; someone who is not an outsider looking in.
Aside from Ali-Karamali’s book, I also cited this one for smorgasbord, but also taken to task by you:
You dissented and I told you to take it up with her (a “cop out”) because she is pushing the argument. I’m not. She believes the oppression of Muslim women is not the result of Islam, but the result of 7th century development of Islamic law by religious male scholars who favored pre-Islamic cultural traditions and norms over the feminist reforms that the Quran had to offer.
Pg 126, she writes:
Pg 122:
She points to women in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan as examples of a few of the places where Muslim women are oppressed; and that some Islamic countries have a long way to go yet with respect to women’s rights but claims it is a cultural issue, not a religious one.
Pg 127-8:
Here’s something else to ponder over…And yes, I’m citing Juan Cole, someone who I generally disagree with on political and historical perspective. But read this:
@Ron H. #80:
Thank you, Ron! Glad someone could see humor in the post…even if it was tasteless humor.
@suek: If you’re young enough, there’s a better way. Go to Mexico, become a Mexican citizen, sneak into the USA, and then you will qualify for a free education, free health care, and even get some of my Social Security money. You will also be exempt from some of our laws.
@Smorgasbord #66:
I just fixed the link again and tested it this time. It should work. But if not, here it is:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/08/15/women-fighting-the-taliban-115875-22488557/
Thanks for letting me know.
Nice-job, Mr. Word. Everyone needs to know who Sayyid Qutb was, and what seeds he laid.
The other easy-one to research and remember is Khomeini of Iran. He used the Commies to take over and turn hundreds of years of historical tolerance on it’s head. (The Shia-Persian hero Cyrus lived in peace with Jews and Christians in his kingdom, and never treated them less than the Moslems.)
Oh… Then Khomeini had the Commies killed, lest they wake up.
Yes, and just think if Jimmy Carter had done a better job of supporting the Shah…where would we be today in regards to Iran and the nuclear threat? 1/2 of the rise of Islamic militancy we face today? There would not have been a reason for Rumsfeld to be caught shaking hands with Saddam.
@Patvann:…
Perhaps Smorg is stuck somewhere, drinking his woes away under the watchful eye of a 1%er wannabe.
Yo, Smorg…. word to the wise. Never enter one of these dangerous American haunts to drink away your inability to respond without knowing where where the back door exit is. Ya never know when one of those dangerous, take over America type m’cycle gang members lurk if you don’t know how to read their jackets, ya know.
@Patvann: “I’ll post the text of my query for you to approve beforehand, but I’ll submit it regardless, if you do not respond within 4 hours.”
This sounds like something the liberals would say. Are you one of them. I might not be on the computer for a day or two, but you only give me four hours to respond? You are going to send it even if I don’t respond? Obama wants people like you on his team. I am a night person or I wouldn’t have read this before tomorrow afternoon.
I am not “pushin” anybody. It almost sounds like you are challenging me to a fight. If so, you win. I have never been in a fight and don’t ever want to.
You have just proven my point. If you do go through with your “threat,” what do you expect them do to me, and is that what your objective is? If they target me and kill me, then will you believe they are a terrorist organization? Will you attend my funeral, or send condolences to my family? Or will you be one of the ones celebrating?
@Aye Chihuahua: “This site is full of a wide variety of topics ranging from politics to current events.”
My statement was:
If somebody new to FA started reading the posts on this story, I am guessing they would think that FA is a Muslim web sight.
I was referring to THIS story and comments. This is still my favorite blog because you all cover more issues that I feel like responding to.
“If you don’t want your opinions challenged on this topic, or any other, then don’t post them for public consumption.”
Believe it or not, I was just about ready to sign off on this story and just read the comments from the others. I am one who can talk about any subject as long as it is neutral. When both sides form their opinions and won’t budge, it is time to change the subject.
I have to wait to see if Patvann turns me in to the Muslims, then I will be leaving the comments section.
@skat #82:
American Muslims are vastly different than European Muslim immigrants. Most American Muslims come highly educated, whereas European Muslims are primarily laborers and blue-collar workers. With this comes limited education and skills and limited upward social mobility. Europe has as much to blame on themselves as upon the immigrants for the lack of assimilation. It’s not simply a matter of them wanting to set up a “nation within a nation”. According to Gallup’s 2009 polling, 69% of Muslims living in France and 72% in the UK consider themselves struggling and only 23% in France and 7% in the UK say they are “thriving”. Many Muslims in Europe live in depressed areas of high unemployment and are treated as second-class citizens. They might share a certain amount of blame for the alienation; but the burden does not rest entirely with them.
Pg 14, John Esposito’s The Future of Islam:
56% say they are struggling, however, in a post-9/11 world where they are under increased scrutiny and suspicion.
Gee…imagine that?
Also…
According to a Pew study a while back, most Muslim Americans appear to have integrated themselves into mainstream America. Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and falafels:
There are a couple of points to be concerned with, however:
@MataHarley: “Evidently, Smorgasbord, you are as math challengened in the Wm Ayers “social justice” public education curriculum as Donald Bly. As of 24-48 hours ago, the posts anti-Islam/Rauf/Cordoba house were one more post than 2 to 1 against the counters.”
I was referring to the FA bloggers on this story. It seems that most of the FA team don’t see Islam as a threat to the USA. I do. I have to agree that I am math challenged. I only had general math in school.
“…go sulk over a brew somewhere, dude, and get over it.”
I don’t drink, but I might try a little extra soda or fruit juice.
Terrorists are poor and uneducated? Wow Word, it looks like you dropped a big load of BS with that one. I could have sworn that you yourself had stated in the past that many if not most terrorists are middle class or higher and well educated. The poor uneducated terrorist angle is one pushed by liberals, and we know how reality challenged they are. Am I reading the meaning of what you posted incorrectly?
With the possibility of that part, I don’t disagree with the rest of your post.
@Hard Right:
I have and I did. HR, please re-read the comment(s) again.
Comment #70
In regard to the article being tasteless, is this a condemnation of Halal cuisine? That is insensitive.
How dare you call me a halalophobe!
I just want it served somewhere else.
@MataHarley: “…watch for those half rocker bar prospects! You know how evil they are too…”
Since I am a non-drinker I don’t do the bars. I don’t know what that means.
Why all the hatred directed towards me? All I have been saying is that the Muslim religion is a terrorist organization from the time it was formed. No different than the different kinds of communism that some countries are under. All of them would rule the world if they could. Islam would too, if it could, and it is spreading.
I don’t get mad at people who disagree with me. From your tone I am guessing you go along with Patvann turning me in to the Muslims, since you said:
“Well, I see that during the time it took me to compose my response in #120 PatVann pretty much wore you down to a bloody stump.”
This post is angling more towards violence. What is going on here? As I mentioned earlier, after Patvann lets me know if he has turned me in to the Muslims I will leave this one. Not because I am being beaten up on, but because I have suggested a time or two before that it is time to change the subject, and I had decided before I got the hate mail that I don’t want to read about the two sides not changing their minds any more.
@Smorgasbord: Smorgasbord, what is remarkable to me is the question you ask in #112:
You mean Islam?
Is this a serious question?! Or just a “slam”? (no pun there…no, really, there isn’t one).
I think somewhere else you asked if I were Muslim. I took it as an attempt at an insult. But were you actually sincere and serious in posing the question?!!!
Ya know…
That’s just so sad, I’m gonna leave ya alone.
*walks away dumbfounded*
de gustibus non est disputandum -In matters of taste, there is no argument.
Halal is not exclusively a Ground Zero cuisine. It is being served in several cities across America already and no one has ever complained of it being tasteless. Unfounded and baseless criticism is in poor taste at the very least.
@Patvann: #132 You said you were going to do it anyway, so why comment? The challenge wasn’t meant for you in the first place.
As I mentioned earlier, you have verified what I have been saying about the Muslim religion. What would happen if someone wrote to the Muslim headquarters and said they were not going to be converted and they included a picture of the cartoon of the Mohammed turban bomb? Is that what you are wishing on me?
“Any questions? Clarifications? Wanna see how I get when I don’t like ya?”
Is this how “Old stubborn SeAL’s” get even with people they don’t like? I just try not to have anything to do with them.
OMG! Smorgasboard.. you’ve become pure liberal, water cooler PC, sans sense of humor, and pure victim! How sad, dude….
First of all, there’s no “hatred”. You brung up Hell’s Angels and how evil they were, and I educated you to the Red’n'White plus prospects. The stuff you don’t know outside of late night B movies. I make a joke about it and I’m directing “hatred”?
I’ll repeat what Patvann said…. “walks away dumfounded”…. WTF? Lighten up, dude. I see happier people on barbituates, and that ain’t an easy task.
You sure you don’t drink? Because I didn’t say that. Then again, I’ve heard Aye Chi and I “look alike”…. :0) Ms. Ukrainian me has never seen Mr. Hispanic Aye, so I’m not sure where that blood line crosses. Especially since my people didn’t immigrate from both Ukraine and Hungary since the early 1900′s.
I dunno… why don’t you ask Minuteman? He’s the guy ready to take up arms tomorrow on it all. “turning you into the Muslims”… that ought to give ‘em a laugh. Personally, Smorg, don’t think they’d care if you inhabited the planet or not. Something about small peanuts. But congratulations on finally admitting you have achieved full lib/prog “victim” status.
@Wordsmith: I agree that things are changing in some areas, and I am glad of it. One question I have is does the Afghanistan constitution have the same rule as Iraq’s does that Islam MUST be the national religion? What I would like to see is the Muslims that don’t believe in the killings and that women should at least have more rights than they do, form a separate sect of the Muslim religion, like several other religions have.
I love SEALS! They are Navy guys, right. Kinda reminds me of that former MN Governor, what was his name – Jessie “The Body” Adventure or some such.
Hey, Smorgy, I will be on your side. In all the dissimilar air combat training the AF has done against our fellow departments of the military, we never lost. That is correct. One of my many AF pilot buddies used to tell me endless stories about “rope a doping” those TOP Gunners from the Navy. Easiest prey to take out in the world because they are so “immovable” in their approach to problems. Even pilots in AF training could take them out they were so “immoveable” in the way they fought.
Ya, see Patvann, it is like this in the real world. You Navy guys have always fought a two dimensional war in the air. Don’t have to worry about what is behind you or beside you. You guys attack front and down ONLY. Now think about how AF goes about the business of winning wars. When one flies the air force way one worries about ALL dimensions at the same instant and all the time. USAF pilots are by far the finest pilots the world has ever seen. How do I know? Been there watched them.
Immoveable means only one thing in war, in life and in spirit. You think you are never wrong and refuse to change your mind when proven wrong. Now don’t go flexing those powerful muscles of yours just yet. I did not say you were wrong, just hinted that you might be. This means you will have to flex what little brain power you have left from learning how to be Mr. immoveable object – THE SEAL.
Yeh, I love those SEALS. Spent a whole year studying Hebrew with one in Washington DC. Got to know him real well. He is my friend as you are Mr. Patvann. Front and down on the ground means you win. But suggest strongly that you have a lot of intel types like me around to protect your rear and your sides. Together with my AF buddies up their in the sky – no one can beat us.
Come along Smorgy. We are gonna have fun this week!
Where there is a SEAL there’s a way
eating up smorgasbords every day
it’s how they face their projects
remaining such immoveable objects
@MataHarley: I’m reading my emails in the order they were received. Some have links that I go to and read. This is starting to sound like kids on the playground. Would you want your kids to talk like this to other kids? I also try to stay away from dangerous places, let alone enter them.
uh yeah… you mean that heinous place that has women elected to Iraqi parliament, and dare to walk around Iraq without being in burkas? And they already have demonimations in Islam… even if you aren’t aware of them. That education has been provided in past commentary. Time for a reread, guy. The archived category is above. Hint… called “ground zero mosque”
They (Iraq) aren’t perfect. But they sure are the far cry from the picture you and ilk paint of what the US will be if Cordoba House is built.
oooooo… yes… FA vewy scarwy place… perhaps you need CHill at your side. And if you don’t want your cyber body guard, stop casting the stones, dude.
I stand, with my mouth agape.
Slightly aghast at myself for slapping the loudmouth at the bar, (then finding out he’s autistic), while some drunk continues to egg him on.
“Get up! Hit him with your face again!”
@Chill
Hebrew has always been taught at the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center in Monterey California. The Washington school is reserved for very small classes of the more obscure languages, and for the diplomatic corps.
It has been this way since the mid 40′s.
@Wordsmith: # 151 It was a serious question. The way several FA bloggers are defending the religion made me wonder. The way I understand it, Muslim and Islam are used to mean the same thing. I hear and read it both ways.
I am getting a lot of comments directed at me about the moderates in Islam, but when I refer back to the Koran’s “convert or kill” and the fact that if someone leaves the religion they are supposed to be killed, I get a lot of flack about it.
I have also said I believe the religion was started as a way to take over the world. The things I mentioned above verify that to me.
Several of your bloggers have been trying to convince me it isn’t a terrorist organization, but it is one of those things that they have their opinion and I have mine and neither side will change their mind. I am trying to only respond to their comments now because I have said I am ready to change the subject and will stop reading the comments shortly.
I believe everybody has the right to their own opinion, but when it gets to the point that each side is basically saying the same things over and over, it is time for a change.
Keep up the good work. FA is still my favorite blog because you all post more things that I feel like commenting on than any other blog I go to.
@CHill: After I stopped laughing, you reminded me of the fighter pilot that came upon a cargo plane and did some fancy maneuvers and asked the cargo pilot what he thought of them. He said they were great and then said, “Watch this.”
The cargo plane flew strait for about five minutes until the fighter pilot finally asked him what he did. The cargo pilot told him he stood up and stretched, went to the bathroom, and grabbed a cup of coffee and a roll.
I’m one that says that anyone in the service is on the same side and doing the same thing: Keeping me free. I even have a problem with the old war movies that show different branches of the service and start fighting about which one does a better job. I hope stuff like that didn’t actually happen.
A chain is only as good as its weakest link. All of the links are just as important as the other. The office workers are just as important as the front line fighters. They are all needed.
There is one exception, my son is in the Air Force, so it is a little more important to me than the others.
You mentioned how good our pilots are. During the first Gulf War a news report said that two of our planes took off on a bombing run, ran into two enemy Migs, switched to fighter mode, took out the Migs, switched back to bombing mode, and finished their mission.
I almost forgot to mention that it is Jessie Ventura. My brother lives in MN and said he was glad to see Jessie go.
@MataHarley: I can’t even ask an honest question without being ridiculed. It wasn’t even you I asked. I don’t always read the complete comment every time. Some are pretty long, and if it seems that it is the same thing that has already been said, I skip the rest of it.
As far as the demonimation of Iraq, I hope it will stay that way, but I will wait until we have been out of there for a while and see if it stays that way.
I have said from the beginning that according to the law Cordoba House is legal to build. I don’t understand why the commission who decides what businesses are allowed would allow it that close to Ground Zero, especially since I found out that the Muslims like to build mosques on land they have captured.
Just because it is legal now doesn’t mean it can’t be cancelled. One place that was approved for a casino in Jew Jersey was cancelled because enough of the residents complained. Maybe not enough New York City residents complained about it.
As Patvann can attest, we are all on the same team. Good hearted ribbing is the name of the game. When I said I love our SEALS, it was not sarcasm. Those guys are very special and I would not want to have them as my enemies. They are simply the best at what they do. Likewise, the Navy pilots are simply the best at what they do which is fleet protection. We all have our own missions and strengths and weaknesses. Together, we make up the finest human beings I have ever known and worked with. Liberals can talk all they want about the military, but it is special to be a member of it and relying on brothers and sisters in uniform to cover one’s axx when the chips are down.
My sister-in-law lives in Wayzata, MN, outside Minneapolis. Really nice place if it weren’t for all the weirdo liberals that live there. Reminds me of California – beautiful place but way too many fruits and nuts for my liking. Plus in Minnesota it is cold.
What does your son do in the Air Force?
@MataHarley: “Never enter one of these dangerous American haunts to drink away your inability to respond without knowing where where the back door exit is.”
What I meant was I don’t go into places that I know are dangerous. I ain’t a macho man and I don’t have anything to prove. I didn’t know that FA was a dangerous place for me to be. If that is the case, I will let as many people have my back as want to. The way I understand it, whenever soldiers on the ground come under fire, one of the first things they do is call for an air strike.
@Patvann: It wasn’t me you slapped in the bar. I don’t drink and haven’t been in one for years except if it was the only place open at night for a meal. You might not want to go back in the bar until you find out who it was you slapped.
Your stooping to the liberal’s level when you start the name calling. Some of the things the Tea Party Patriots and other Tea Parties discourage is cussing, name calling, racism, and be particular what kind of sign you use. I am guessing you are not one of us.
Patvann: Is this the immoveable object coming at me again? Now I begin to wonder about who you really are.
Let me make it perfectly clear and if you have doubts, suggest you do a Google search on Foreign Service Institute, Roslyn, Virginia. I studied there twice – Hebrew and Thai. My Chinese training came from DLI in Monterrey. In fact, Mr. Immoveable Object, I met my wife of 35 years while studying the Hebrew language. She was a hairdresser (Chinese-Thai) who worked in Fairfax. The Hebrew linguists (12 of us in my class) were housed at Andrews AFB with our records located at Ft. Myers.
ALL diplomats are provided their language training at FSI. Hebrew has never been taught any where else. At the time I studied, the military called it Special Arabic. Now if you still want to show just how true my comments are about immoveable objects, I will be glad to send you a copy of my graduation certificate as an honor graduate from FSI with the word HEBREW on it. Better yet. quit being such an immoveable object.
This is not a matter of opinion because you are dead wrong. Either that or I just developed dementia and am living in a dream world of my own making. Stand by one . . .
Nope. I am right. My diploma states clearly – Foreign Service Institute.
BTW, Anacostia (DLI East Coast) was closed shortly after the last Vietnamese linguists were trained there and whom lived with us at Andrews AFB. Duhhhh, do you suppose an AF linguist knows something about language training?
Smorgy: How is that for close air support?
@CHill: #165 As you know, with each base change comes a new job. He will be transferring to Canada in January and I don’t know what he will be doing. One thing he has done is help with the logistics of getting supplies to the troops.
While he was based in California he got airman of the year. He doesn’t brag much, and we had to find out about it from his wife.
Patvann: I had not done any Google searches on Hebrew since I moved to Thailand in 1992 after graduating from FSI in Thai. Had no need. What I sent was knowledge based on personal experience. Thus, I thought I might check it out to make sure of my own knowledge.
Seems Hebrew has been taught at DLI in California since 1984 http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/2454/monterey-gis-master-hebrew-viewing-israeli-sitcoms/
I graduated from FSI in 1974 in Hebrew and moved to the Middle East the following year. I happen to have known about NO HEBREW AT DLI at that time because I was stationed at Castle AFB, CA when selected to reenter the world of linguists. Thought I would only have to move a little over 100 miles to Monterrey but instead found I had to travel over 3000 miles in less than five days. I called DLI and found the news out a day before i got my final orders.
Prior to 1984, no Hebrew was taught at DLI. All my colleagues graduated from FSI.
Just thought you should know. One website does not make one knowledgeable about a subject even if that website is DLI.
Shalom Alekha
@CHill: The only thing I can add to that is that I graduated from high school. I’ll let you know if I need another air strike.
PATVANN: YOU kow that I am your friend, I have to tell you that YOU are getting
PHYSICLY GETTING into a QUARREL with OUR OTHER friends, INCLUDING threats,
I surely hope that you will dismantle those, by telling SMoRGASBORD,that you wont do any of those agaisnt him: AS you know that TRHEAT would be treason against one of FA group that we also consider friend:
THese SUBJECT bring the divide wittin us at FA to deep,
each opinions belong to the one who send it, could be chalenge with a limit
BECAUSE of that FACT, WE must not fall into the bait like rats,
WE {not me], are too smart to fall in that trap, and we should know the limits of how far to challenge a buddy,which is diferent than challenging a opponant,which can go further, but also has its limits. bye
@Chill
RE: DLI
Then I shall have to belay my last. I was there in the early 80′s, and the that was the history of the place as they taught us. (Spanish and later Russian for me.) I’m not sure what website you’re referring to.
The AF Para-rescue trained with us. They are one group SeAL’s never rib, because they are the ones that evac us when things go bad. (In reality, I don’t recall ever us ribbing anyone, except the politicians of the day.) There is no group of SF that have as much physical, and mental training anywhere in the world….or as much respect by the Navy and Marine operators.
They are indeed guardian angels, and I will never forget their efforts in Grenada to try and save ST-4.
My “Immovable Object” was in regards to bigotry, (and you know it) and here I shall stand. It was not me that refused to open my mind to new information, it was the man you now so adamantly defend. If by defending that stance, you agree that all Moslems are some sort of ticking time-bomb of hate and violence, then I shall stand in YOUR way, too.
-Just as I did when “all gooks are commies” was in vogue 30 years ago.
@Smorg
You’ve asked questions, we’ve given answers, history lessons, religious lessons, links and everything else in the book to satisfy even the thickest and most paranoid of heads.
You had DEMANDED that we show you an example of reformist Islam and after providing you with the link and the name, your response (without ever going to the site) was that they are a “Muslim headquarters” that’s “ready to kill you” if I was to send them a picture of old uncle Mo with a bomb in his turban. How he would get your address, you don’t say, but that statement alone tells me that I need to leave you be. “Uncoachable” is the word I’ll use.
-Sorry man, but there is nothing else to say to you regarding Islam.
@Beez
I threatened no one, and I will ALWAYS quarrel with people who hate and fear all persons of a particular group. Loudly and vigorously.
CHill – I have a friend living in Thailand you might know. Retired Army Major, nickname Zippo. Ever run into him. Would give some of the liberals here a run for their money.
@Patvann:
You’d likely be interested in reading CHill’s pontifications on Islam:
There’s much more on that thread, but that gives you the essence.
@ Curt,
Strangely, I’m not aware that I was posting as both skat & skatblue. I haven’t changed anything, just put my comment in the little comment box. I did get a error message and I didn’t think my comment had posted. Sorry for any confusion, but whatever happened was unintentional. Hope this posts as skat.
@suek,
I like your mixed up metaphor, but I don’t have time to plow concrete.
I’m only commenting to push this thread closer to #200… Then I’ll pounce on the privilege, assuming I’m quick enough, to make the 200th posting.
DONALD BLY: hi, there is lots time,DONT count on it, I’ll beat you to it.
I got the last 200, and I’ll get this one too!
PATVANN you got the last one because I let you have it, WELL NOT THIS ONE,
IT MINE,all mine, me myself and I OWN it, and the world[ the free world].
@Donald Bly:
@Patvann:
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Wanna bet?
AYE CHIHUAHUA: hi, HOW much? bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:
$2.00 which is, of course, 200 pennies.
ok 18 divided by 3 give us 6 each, unless somone else cut our neck
HOW much in CANADIAN money. bye
You can just send me two Canadian dollars when I win.
No conversion necessary.
we have loonies and tonies no paper below 5dollards.
do you still have paper 1 dollard, and paper 2 dollard or metal loonies and metal tonies
*strolls slowly past…kicks a pebble…whistles a little tune…*
Hi guys!
@Patvann: #173 As I mentioned earlier, the problem isn’t with the people, it is the religion. That is all I am referring to. Most Muslims were born into it in a country that that was the only religion allowed. They were taught from childhood to hate infidels, just like the Japanese and Germans and others were taught to hate others for thousands of years.
The link you sent was the comment page if a person wants to make comments. That is all the page was. There wasn’t anything else to read. You said you were going to send it in for me even if I didn’t. To me, that is a threat.
If there are reformists in Islam, all I have said is that they should break away from the main religion and form a branch of it if they want to stay Muslim, otherwise they are worshiping from the Koran, and you know the rules in the Koran.
I have seen different documentaries where soldiers of both sides were brought together to meet. One such one was the pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor and the sailors who were attacked. Both sides understood the pilots were only doing what their emperor told them to do. One thing I remember was that the pilots told the sailors that they were amazed how many planes they lost in the second wave.
The United States has made friends out of enemies for many years: England, Germany, Japan, etc. Those countries had to be defeated first. I don’t see how we can be friends with Islam until they drop the Koran teaching of killing and treating women like they do. As I said earlier, the ones who want to change it need to separate themselves from the Koran and write another religious book. They can use the writing in the Koran and leave out the parts they don’t like. This is all that I have been saying all along.
PATVANN, I have your back, if you let me run at the last minute,
SMORGASBORD: hi, I see you here to get that 200 from us, and I’m the one who will
take it. bye
UNLESS MATA decide to cut in,
or WORDSMITH, or CURT, or DR JOHN
AND my laptop is ALMOST in flames.
@Smorgasbord:
The religion is nothing without the people. The people give legs to the beliefs.
The people also have the option to pick and choose what they do with the things that their holy books teach them. The Bible, for example, contains a set of standards and instructions. Do all Christians follow all of those instructions? The answer would be “NO”. If you’re not familiar with Biblical teaching I can illustrate a wide variety of things for you just off the top of my head.
Just because it’s written in a book, or taught during worship etc, does not mean that all will follow it.
Your repeated insistence that all of Islam is the same and all Muslims are evil is simply not based in fact or reality.
If it were, then we would have seen exponentially increasing incidents of Muslim violence against non-Muslims within this country as their population has increased.
You should power down that laptop so it can rest.
Your comment could easily be taken that you are calling people Islamophobes simply because they want it elsewhere while falsely claiming you are joking. Not saying you are doing that, but it could definitely be taken that way.
Yes I understand you are kidding Word, but it also could be looked upon as the type of insult liberals deliver. They say something nasty and then claim they were just kidding. After seeing it so often, it can be felt where not intended.
Thanks for the comment heads up. I knew something wasn’t right. The problem with these huge threads is that they are hard to keep up with if you get busy elsewhere.
Are you guys competing for 200? Hmmm, better do it in the middle of the night, I usually get up at 4:30, bwahahaha. …..3 more.
Nope. Someone else can have 200. I may hold out for # 300 tho.
It’s late here on the east coast…..
time for bed.
Oh, I forgot to say
200
You bastage.
New rule. No admins allowed.
AYE CHIHUAHUA THAT”S why you sent me to cool my laptop ,I just reopen to miss it by a minute
WHERE do I send your reward? congratulation it will be your last win,
I’ll make sure of that, MISSY gave you a push, I know her game, she made me win one just like that before over DONALD BLY. bye
PATVANN can you get over your lost and stay cool, I’ll help you on the next, I feel sorry to have drop your back, but my laptop was angry in fire, bye
DONALD BLY: THE DINGO ett your stick again, I’ll get you another, bye
SMORGASBORD ,we had no chance they would have beat us if we would have win. bye
Aye Chihuahua: And I also recall people here stating emphatically that no one calls us fourteenth responders names like bigot. Best go back and read your response to my “Islam is not now nor has ever been the Religion of Peace except when everyone on the planet is Muslim” status. I stand by that statement. It is not a bigoted statement but one of fact. Read the Quran and related books. A religion’s philosophical tenants define the religion. One of Christianity’s tenants is charity toward others. The love one’s neighbor as one loves oneself concept Just because Christians do not follow this tenant does not mean that the tenant is not part of Christianity. Bigot is as bigot does.
How many Muslim friends do you have or have you had over the course of your life? How much time have you spent in the Middle East? Have you ever had students who were Shiite, Sunni or Sufi? Have you ever spent your spare time exchanging ideas with Muslim colleagues from Iraq and Iran on a daily basis? Have you ever traveled to areas where the Sufi were the predominate religious group interacting with them and enjoying their hospitality? Have you ever given a Muslim a gift that you picked up in Kashgar depicting the Ishtar Mosque on a beautiful silk scroll and then getting several books about Islam in return? You are more than welcome to call me what ever silly little name you like, it does not change the facts that Islam, as presented in its most revered writings can be depicted as I have depicted it. This, of course, has nothing to do with individual Muslims and how they choose to worship their religion.
No one is called a bigot here, right?
Could it be that tasteless remarks lack seasoning. Serve the Halal entente and you will have an interesting cuisine for the mind. Serving elsewhere indeed, we worry over Halal while the Marxists have us on the menu, is that tasteless?
Patvann #173: Having spent all that time with the SEAL, I knew you were also a linguist by trade (and an exterminator by hobby). As you saw, I quickly belayed my earlier comments about never to 1984 and onward. I have read your writings and agree with your way of thinking. Aye Chihuahua got carried away with his finger pointing. All the questions I posed to him are questions based on reality. I do not have to tell you what Islam doctrines are or are not. Anyone can read them. The problem is many people (especially liberals) read these doctrines then powder them up to look pretty and then turns around and denies they exist, calling anyone who points them out names that, of course, are not called on this website.
I meet only one person at a time. My response has always been one of Christian charity and love. I love my fellow humans even with all the spite and ugly spots we all have. Some times people just project onto others the faults they themselves have. Maybe that is why we have several lurkers comment about the liberalism of this site. MMMM, I wonder!
minuteman #174: Is Major Mark Smith still living here! I have been living and working in China for the last three years (just returned here in July) so I have had no contacts with people I used to know.
I guess this means I know Zippo, huh? Would be interested to know if he is still around. I will not be able to get out for the next three weeks because of my eye operation I had last week. I only have kept up with the guy who was checking my mail at the local military establishment.
HARD RIGHT: hi, what is the problem?, DONT you like THE number 200, ? WHY not ?
DOES it come GENETIC or from a wound on the head?, 200 is a ok number,did it done
something against you?. NO I am sure. well ,this post wont make the 300comment, so you miss a chance to feel like a winner, it wont come back, because I’ll win the others one. bye
NOW I’ll let go my build up anger all on you, because the others scare me. bye
@Smorgs
*sigh*
I’m sorry sir, you have said no such thing at all. You have so far refused to accept that there are REFORMERS doing exactly what you now claim you want, and I and others spoke of it, many dozens of comments ago. You could have easily navigated to the Home-page of the site I posted to begin reading the columns and articles-of-position, but even now, you have not.
But you just got a whole lot closer to understanding your own angst about Islam, and seeing 5 pretty good paragraphs of position coming out of you deserves an equally thought-out response…
Let’s look at a snapshot of the Koran. There are a little over 100 entries calling for death to non-Moslems. There are about 60 that say nice things about other religions. Obviously that would be a good place to begin “trimming”.
But should they? Or should they come to the reality that these bad-passages are now a threat to Islam?
Like the Jews did.
The Old Testament is essentially the Jewish religion. (I’m being simplistic here, so stay with me).
Now it’s really easy to go read certain chapters that are STILL in the Bible, and find all the stuff about how to treat your slave, who you can screw, how to dress, what to plant, how to properly install a railing on your roof so your slaves don’t fall off…and on and on, up to and including war.
Right?
Do you see any Jews following that stuff? No! Not even the most hard-core traditionalist does any of that stuff. He would curse that Rabbi who would even suggest it!
Yet it’s all still there, 3000 years later. Still shockingly “bad”.
The Hebrew’s came to the realization that if they kept that crap up, they would either kill themselves, or get killed. They had LOT’S of wars back then amongst themselves, and with others. After they had had enough strife, and were on the verge of extinction, they modified and ABROGATED (and in many cases ignored) those old stories and laws. They chose to see those “bad” things as what they were…a product of their time. They kept it all in, so that later generations would learn from it.
-Which is also why the Christians kept the Old Testament as well. But even then, the Catholic Church had to go through it’s own internal and external strife before getting it’s act together. That’s why history records the REFORMATION a few hundred years ago….the result of which, took power from the Popes, and created the Protestant versions of Christianity starting with the Lutherans (Martin Luther of Germany), and expanding into the dozen or so Christian “sects” we know today.
-But they all still use the same Bible, with the same old-Testament “bad” stuff, don’t they?
Granted, the Koran has a lot more to be abrogated and ignored, but it is being done. They have a long road to travel, and the pressure to stay violent is huge. Not only by those with the guns, but governments, and Leftists who have been stoking these flames for almost 100 years against the notion of America, and the freedom we represent for all men.
WW1 was the end of the last Caliphate, and the re-emergence of violent Islamic thought. WW2 gave them the power to hook up with Hitler, and make it happen. The Leftist’s and opportunistic politicians have enabled them to this day.
America is the only place left on the planet that can let that essential evolution happen, so let’s find them and cheer them on, instead of lumping them into a singular pot of hate, shall we?
After-all. even after the “Shores of Tripoli” that cemented our beloved Marines into our collective psyche. Jefferson did not forbid Moslems from these shores.
Let’s follow that lead, shall we?…Along with the lead the New Testament gave us about love conquering hate.
We can do that by publicly supporting those reformers, loudly rejecting the multicultural crap by the liars of Islam and the Left, getting off Mideast oil asap, and killing lots of Jihadi’s.
#208: From now on thou shalt be known as Pat “The Logic” Vann. Now go up there to MN and run for governor!
I will still be clapping as you leave the room.
@Chill
Actually, I am a dual-mastered engineer by trade, a father in practice, with science, history, and a 70 Camaro as hobbies. The SeAL’s were both the preparation for that life, and a culmination of swimming with the Santa Clara International Swim Club for 8 years.
I’ve been an avid reader and writer since childhood, and had Catholic nuns for 12 years making sure that foundation was solid.
I have several good Moslem friends, and have been to several of the ‘Stans for Uncle Sam after 911. Working in the semiconductor-equipment industry gave me a chance to visit many countries, without having to make a plan to kill any of them…
Except for this one jerk manager at Samsung in Korea…
(edit/added)
P.S. And I hate Jesse with a passion. I’ve owned smarter goldfish.
Patvann: How about a tri-mastered retiree in foreign affairs, English and business administration who is recuperating from eye surgery before starting off on another adventure. Have been giving some thought to some of those Central Asian Newbie countries. My wife and I spend a month among the Sufi Muslims of Western China (Xinjiang) traveling the silk road. Talk about hospitality heaven! Mostly Uygars but also some Uzbeks, Tajiks and some really exciting kazakhs thrown in on horseback.
We are addicted to travel. Lived three years in Cambodia back when it was pretty unsafe and now three years in China. MMMMM, USAF job switches average about three years each as well.
China was truly eye-opening. Am just sitting back waiting for the “right” wrong article to come out about China to jump in and share some pretty great things we saw and did among the university students there. At my going away party, almost 100% of the students declared their disdain for Mao and the communist party. The universities are very open with the direction from the top to teach truth where ever it leads. Gotta do that to be competitive but . . . no surprise as to the outcome.
Let me know when you run for governor and I will volunteer my services.
edit also added: Jesse is really some kind of fruitcake, isn’t he? He probably thought that the WWF was the real deal as well.
@Chill
Nice!
I’ve never been to the Mainland, but I’ve been to Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, and Japan a bunch of times each. From what I’ve heard from the Chinese I have worked with, it jibes with your observation. I smell a revolution within a decade or so within that pressure-cooker.
Now…Can you build every aspect of a kitchen from scratch?
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu80/Patvann/DSC00196.jpg
Far-view:
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu80/Patvann/DSC00195.jpg
As I stated earlier: Front down and on the grown YOU WIN. Now I know who to call to help me finish my Chinese compound (hsiheyuan) in Hua Hin.
Chill, Pat…you need to put those experiences down on cyber paper and write a post or two about them. I know I would love to read them, and I bet a lot of FA readers would also.
@Curt
I don’t know…reading about home-remodeling is kind boring, and my white-papers pertaining to depositing metals onto silicon wafers in a vacuum will positively make eyes glaze right over.
-I’ll have to think up something a bit more engaging.
@Chill
-Gesundheit.
Yeah….just reading that description made my eyes glaze over, but I have a feeling there are some stories from your younger days…and hell, living abroad and your experiences there, that would make interesting reading.
@CHill:
Labels are certainly applied as they are applicable. I never claimed that they weren’t.
If the shoe fits etc etc.
I went back and re-read your posts on the thread where you entered this conversation. Your words are there for all to read and evaluate.
You try and give yourself an escape valve by saying that you don’t actually act on your beliefs therefore the label doesn’t apply. However your thoughts and beliefs, expressed in your own words, fit the classic dictionary definition. Stereotyping would also be an appropriate descriptor.
My opinion of your beliefs stands.
I laugh at your opinion as if someone as brilliantly moral as you has the right to hold such an opinion of another person. Ever heard what they say about opinions? Facts bite hard. Bigotry takes action and I will challenge you to find anyone on the planet who knows me and will call me a bigot. What I wrote was factual information concerning the documents that define the religion. But let us not have facts get in the way of name calling. Islam is what is Islam is. Only very ignorant or self-annointed liberals would say otherwise. Guess one does not have the right to criticize a religion here either, huh? Enjoy your opinion and make sure you get back to the other members of the authors here and tell them they are liars for saying no one does name calling.
@CHill:
Isn’t that precisely the position that you took regarding those who have chosen Islam as their religion.
Why yes, I believe it is.
You claim to only judge people as you meet them…yet you cast a wide net with your words regarding people that you specifically said that you have never met.
Bigotry is not only beliefs put into action, but thought processes as well. Look it up. Heck, I even posted a link to an online dictionary to make it easy for you.
Your escape hatch has failed and you’ve become enmeshed in your own words.
Aye: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. (Wilkipedia}
Read it carefully as bigotry involves more than just writing thoughts down on a blog. If you need help with the English, ask as I have a masters in English.
I am not hostile to anyone but apparently you are.
Enjoy your English lesson especially when you exhibit intolerance, irrationality and animosity to those with whom you disagree. Philosophizing about a religion based on the doctrines of that religion is not exactly casting a net on anyone.
Let me guess – a liberal, right? Do you need a list of names that you can call me? Got lots of them if you can’t think of any. Go ahead. Get that last word in to make yourself feel powerful and in control.
PATVANN: that’s why we’r engaging you here, if you want, we can step up the “engaging ”
A few more notchs.
I see that you spend the night here ,and put some glue on this post,
I’m coming to the rescue. bye
One last point Mr. Aye:
One of many sources for my statements(oh, I mean bigotry):
http://www.politicalislam.com/principles/pages/five-principles/
Aw crap…. I go to bed and you folks not only steal my 200th post…. ya’ll go into over kill with an extra 22 on top of it.
One cannot sleep around here! Or the dingos will ‘et your stick…
@Patvann…. nice job on the kitchen… not everyone can build kitchen cabinets from scratch.
Pat, your kitchen is beautiful, nice job, a real wife pleaser! Bet your family leaves the house happy every morning, I would just want to sit there and enjoy it all day!
In my house…. the wife doesn’t even know that we have a kitchen… let alone where it is.
PATVANN: I’m glad MISSY mentioned it, I would have miss that; It’s a unique style,
Beautifuly made and designed, I love the color, very natural and appeasing,
I could have been a good helper on that; I’m proud of you, fantastic job.
HOW long did it take your spare time to do?. bye
DONALD BLY: why did you have to hide the kitchen from your wife?
IF you have a too big house, just cut it and rent the other side,
BUT you’ll need some research to do on the tenant before, because once they are in
they demand all kinds of rights, and you become hostage . bye
@Bees…. I didn’t have to hide the kitchen from the wife… she has some kind of genetic GPS system that guides her away from things like, stoves, sinks, and dishwashers. I also learned all about being a hostage over 25 years ago when I discovered that combining the words “I” and “do” instantly transform one from free bird to hostage.
CHill- Ref 206- Believe Zippo is living in Bangkok. Tell Curt to give you my e-mail and I’ll forward his info. Got an e-mail form him this am ref GZM. Doesn’t care much for commies and Islamists.
@Chill
Strange reaction I see here…Aye and I have been in lockstep this whole time, yet it is only my posit you’ve recently come around to accepting. I would ask that you to re-evaluate his words.
RE: Kitchen
The kitchen was built for my brother and his wife (99.98% for the wife) for their 20th wedding anniversary. It was a hideous mess before, and I stripped it down to the wall and ceiling-studs so that I could work with a “blank slate”.
I designed the cabinets, routered the doors, and rough-cut the panels, but it was my brother in-law (who owns the specialty-tools needed), who did the final cutting for the flush-mounted hinges, and dovetailed drawers, final-cutting and such. Then I did the assembly, staining, hanging, mounting and other work to build in the dishwasher, trash-compactor, lazy-susan shelving (on sealed bearings) and a bunch of other little touches. I added low-voltage lighting under the cabinets, installed sun-tubes, raised part of the ceiling, put in can-lights and did all the tile/granite work after replacing all the wiring, plumbing, and wallboards, which is now water/fireproof Hardiebacker, and not drywall. The sink is cast iron, and extra deep, with a built-in soap dispenser. If you’ll notice, the “island” has no visible supports. That’s because I installed pre-stressed steel rods under the granite and substructure, in the same way bridges are made strong. The flooring was straight-forward, and the final touch.
My brother’s wife was out-of state taking care of her mother who had become very ill. Her mom recovered, but she was despondent over missing their anniversary when she left. Ray wasn’t feeling too good about his situation either, because he had been out of work for 8 months.
My wife was the one who came up with the brilliant idea of the surprise (and much of the lay-out and material choosing). Ray was the “ultimate distractor” (and helper) during her month away, while I “went to town” with the best skills I had to offer. She had no idea what-so-ever what she was coming home to.
It cost them nothing but beer and munchies, (he bought the fridge, though) but I was paid the most I have ever been paid for any job, at any time in my life, when she came into that kitchen and promptly collapsed in joyous tears. She is still the envy of the neighborhood 5 years later.
(another view)
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu80/Patvann/DSC00193.jpg
@Don.
I could turn that now-wasted space into a private “man-cave”, for ya!
@Patvann:
Very, very nice job on the kitchen Pat.
My wife is making noises now about the kitchen being the next major project on our list….the never ending list of things that need to be done in a house from 1880.
I plan to build the cabinets myself and I hope I can do as nice a job as you.
PATVANN; wow I also like the computer in the kitchen space.your brother did a good routing job ,so all classy.
I also love MY DREMMEL router, I made some nice things with it, LIKE a 4 pannels divider with top and bottom OAKLEAVES carved in row of different one side by side,with my router,funny ,I took the design on a pillowcase; plus I woodburn designs taken from many children’s books, like one
is a little boy with long ears pointed riding on a owl,and things like that, and on both sides, and
I colord each one to his diffrent color, and last, I apply varnish to it 6 coats, it took me a year,
I was stranded in the house because my husband sikness could not be left alone 24hrs, so this peace is along with music what prevent me to loose my sanity at this time which has past,
@Beez
That sounds beautiful! I like how you made a very-personal touch with the artwork! Ideas can be found everywhere!
-I hope your husband is now with good health.
PATVANN thank you, but HE is where there is no more suffering, and he wanted that, but I prolong his life so he would not himself end it. . bye
@Beez
Oh I am so sorry…
PATVANN,thoses years are far away,and I HAVE died and reborn to follow a new direction completly different
AND beyong my wildest dreams, just beginning for me. bye
@Bees
I think that I can speak for most of us here in telling you how sorry we are for your loss. We are also very fortunate to have your voice amongst ours. Thank you.
Although my wife can’t find the kitchen… I’m an avid cook and a big fan of Thai food which I have been fortunate enough to become skilled in creating. A year in Thailand and eating cowpot cooked along side the road made a believer out of me…. a heaping plate of cowpot gai all for a quarter…. you just can’t beat eats like that. And it’s fast food… most dishes done in under 15 minutes from start to finish.
johngalt, thank you, I WAS relathing to past years, THE tears have dried to make room
for a shining beautifull renewal of my life which I accept as a gift and allow things to happen and follow the road to it, like a rebirt after having to fight with living hell itself for to many years.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Your Canadian $2.00 is worth about $1.91 compared to American $2.00 right now.
We have loonies in the USA, but they are not currency. We call them democrats. Down here a crazy person sometimes is called a loon, and a mental institution is sometimes called the loony bin. Right now I think that would be the proper name for Congress because they have more loons than sane people.
We have tonies, but they are awards for entertainers.
When I visit another country one souvenir I try to get is one of each of that country’s coins. My favorite is your $2.00 coin with its metal within metal design.
The first time I was in Canada the money was confusing because you use the same terms as we do: Dollar, quarter, etc. The first time I bought something I wondered if they use American money until I got the change. I had no idea how much the change was worth and trusted the waitress to give me the right amount. A person should know the exchange rate for any country they visit. They should also try to spend all of the currency they have from that country before they leave it because the neighboring country might not accept it.
I didn’t think about that when I came back to the USA. I was talking about the Canadian money I had and someone said they would buy it, so I sold it to him. I hadn’t started saving country’s coins at that time.
DONALD BLY , hi, so you are the chef of the kitchen, those thai recipys include many veretables I think and would be cook in a wock and with oil?. sound good healthy food. bye
SMORGASBORD: hi, IT would be a pleasure to send you and I must send one
I owe now to CHIHUAHUA, but I have no where to send it.
IS there a box at FA that I can send to a name? I dont know. bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:
You really don’t owe me a thing Ms. Bees.
Just keep participating and making yourself a part of us here and that would be way better than anything else I could ask for.
AYE CHIHUAHUA: thank you,for being so gracious, I made a deal and I will owe you until I find a way to send it, So if it take longer the interest will accumulate, bye
CURT did someone delete the comment to SHANNON from COMMONSENSE,I receiced it in my mail
A while ago, I went to check and it’s not at SHANNON. bye
@Bees…. One cannot cook Thai without a bottle of fish oil… It is a must… extract of anchovy.
@ilovebeeswarzone: I forgot to mention that I have been in Canada several times and have several of each of your coins. If you still want to send me some Canadian money, that is fine with me. How much are we talking about?
@ilovebeeswarzone: If you don’t have the trash automatically delete the emails, it will still be there. I keep mine for at least one year for that reason. Just put “shannon” or “commonsense” in the trash search window and it will list all emails with those names.
Patvann #231: How can I reevaluate being called a bigot based on a response that starts out with “Islam is not a religion of peace and never has been.” Do believe the content is about the revered principles on which Islam was established and can be seen in the Quran, Hadith and other documents. I have not gone back and read what I wrote specifically but the intent was to point out how difficult it is to know who is following the these tenets and who is not.
As I recall, I used the example of what happened in Iran in the 70s with the hostage taking and thousands of foreigners kicked out. My unit flew cover for the evacuation and I personally helped hundreds of families be comfortable as they waited on flights home from Athens. The stories they told were pretty consistent in that their Iranian friends turned on them and many stated they had been faking their friendship until the right time.
Bigotry. I would say it is more like factual data.
The kicker in this little episode and one in which even Mr. Aye will have trouble overcoming is when I asked him if Islam has specific requirements on how Muslims should treat infidels (and Kafirs) in their holy documents. He refused to answer the question (which is undeniably yes) and changed the subject to individual believers of the faith and their relationships. All I could do at that point was shrug my shoulders and realize he was clueless about what I was writing. Even he should have realized (especially since the subject sentence started out with Islam and not Muslims) that I was writing about philosophical and political Islam. I was picking oranges way up in the orange tree while he was applying manure to the ground around the tree.
Suggest he refrain from calling people names in knee jerk fashion based on blog posts written in response to issues which are controversial. One should not have to parse words carefully at a conservative website. Such knee jerks can be found all day among liberals. Mr Aye reminded me of my dear brother in Oklahoma who looks hard to find things I write to use against me as a weapon of name calling. He, too, is a dedicated liberal.
Twas not a very impressive show of restraint on his part and, of course, any misunderstanding on the content was my fault since as Wordsmith found out with this posting – the written word does not portray intent as well as the spoken word.
@CHill:
Therein lies the problem.
You haven’t even refreshed your memory regarding what you’ve written yet you insist that you’re correct.
Hint: You got off on the wrong track in your very first post and it went spiraling down from there.
Run along now Mr. Parchment Diploma. See if you too can discover what is abundantly clear.
PS…. That definition of bigotry that you provided fits you perfectly. If you need help with the English, just let me know.
Aye: OOOOOH, such brilliant tactics to redeem thyself. You are truly an intellect of immense proportions.
Do the holy books of Islam dictate how believers are to treat infidels (kafir)? Now it is your turn to get the gist of the content. Funny how you still refuse to answer the simple question and realize what it was all about. Why ask such a question?
Parchments are nice things to achieve. Maybe it is time for you to try to achieve one.
Nice place you have here – NOT!
You obviously have not kept up with other bloggings.
The definition also fits someone else as well. (You probably do not understand to whom I am referring)
IT”S too regrettable, that this hot subject has succeed to divide SMART COMMENTERS who stand their ground on each side, but all belong to the same party, and same ideal,
OF restoring AMERICA which is sinking deeper into debts from bad policys,
AND destructives AIMS as to DIVIDE and HATEFULLY use the racist card , and the bullying tactic
to insult the people who dont accept to be governed bye such incompetance..
THERE is so much anger in a majority of AMERICANS, who must be patient until the time come du, to vote rightfully for RESTORING AMERICA.