Law Professor Richard Esenberg writes about the the legal challenges coming against ObamaCare, whether those challenges can stop it, and why this bill is so dangerous.:
Still, the individual mandate may be different. Professor Barnett writes that “[w]hile Congress has used its taxing power to fund Social Security and Medicare, never before has it used its commerce power to mandate that an individual person engage in an economic transaction with a private company.” It’s one thing to be subject to regulation because you are providing for yourself what you would otherwise buy in an interstate market. It’s quite another thing to argue that, because your refusal to consume a product may affect interstate commerce (if the young and healthy do not insure, the old and sick will have to pay more), you can be made to buy it.
Some scholars and lawyers prefer to emphasize Congress’ authority to tax and spend to promote the general welfare. Jack Balkin, for example, thinks that this makes the case for the constitutionality of the individual mandate “easy.” For Professor Balkin, there is no need to construct Rube Goldberg-like scenarios of commercial impact. “The government can make you pay taxes,” he says. Because the failure to insure will result in a tax (as opposed, I guess, to a stint in Leavenworth), there is nothing to see here.
Perhaps not. There is certainly case law that, while not mandating that conclusion, provides some substantial support. But it ought not to be that easy. The power to tax is, the power to destroy. While taxes may have a regulatory purpose, there should be some limitation on the ability of Congress to accomplish by taxation is there truly no limitation on Congress’ ability to coerce through taxation what it cannot do through regulation? Should Congress really be able to take, as is the case here, up to two percent of a person’s income because she has failed to do what Congress cannot compel her to do? Does a fine become permissible as long as it is connected through the Internal Revenue Service?
Without getting into the doctrinal ins and outs, this should not – and might not be -as easy as my old law review colleague believes it to be. There may yet be room to argue that Congress’ enumerated powers impose some limit on its power to tax, particularly when the tax is imposed in an effort to coerce certain behavior or to penalize a failure to act. Were I to wager on the question (which may turn out to be an exercise in reading the mind of Anthony Kennedy), I would expect the Court to uphold the individual mandate. But the day that it does will be a tragic one for the Republic.
The reason will not be the survival of ObamaCare. It is, I think, a poorly conceived proposal that will do more harm than good. As written, it seems likely to fail and, if not abandoned, may well lead to a single payer system. But we have survived worse.
It will be tragic because the notion of a Congress limited by the scope of its enumerated powers will have finally suffered the coup de grace. The Bill of Rights (once famously – and now ironically – thought to be unnecessary given the structural limits on the power of the national government) will become the only limitation on the power of Congress. If Congress can require you to buy health insurance because of the ways in which your uncovered existence effects interstate commerce or because it can tax you in an effort to force you to do anything old thing it wants you to, it is hard to see what – save some other constitutional restriction – it cannot require you to do – or prohibit you from doing.
I appreciate that many people – including most of my colleagues in the legal academy – see nothing wrong with this. There are, to be sure, still political constraints on Congress. Even if Congress can ration trips to McDonalds, it won’t.
The extent to which you are comfortable with this may turn on the extent to which you are comfortable with the centralization of authority and, in a world in which Congressional enactments are increasingly delegations of authority to bureaucrats, your confidence in the capacity of experts to “get it right.”
Tom Maguire asks, where will it stop?
Since the topic is health, suppose the government legislated that all of us must submit to semi-annual weigh-ins, with testing for nicotine use and illegal drugs, subject to an income tax penalty for declining the test. Suppose the Congress also mandated that we must sign a “Consent to Search” form allowing the Food Police to conduct snap inspections of our kitchens, in a zealous quest for excess butter and ice cream.
Oh, but that would never happen right?
Yeah, just like we thought the government would ever be allowed to FORCE us to buy something…or else.
But either way, whether it survives the legal challenges or not, this bill will be a war for decades to come. The debate is not stopped. Every year we will have one funding crisis after another. Every year we will be taxed more and more. What will we become if this does survive?
We only have to look at Great Britain to get a glimpse of the future. The National Health Service—socialized medicine—was created in 1946 and touted as the envy of the world. It’s been a contentious issue ever since. Its cost and coverage are perennial subjects of debate. The press, especially England’s most popular newspaper, The Daily Mail, feasts on reports of long waiting periods, dirty hospitals, botched care and denied access to treatments.
A Conservative member of the European Parliament, Daniel Hannan, last year in an interview on Fox News denounced the NHS as a “60-year mistake,” declaring he “wouldn’t wish it on anybody.” As prime minister, Margaret Thatcher bravely cut NHS spending in the 1980s, but current Tory leaders regard criticism of the NHS as too risky. “The Conservative Party stands four square behind the NHS,” its leader, David Cameron, said in response to Mr. Hannan.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi believes ObamaCare would have a more congenial fate—that it will become as popular as Social Security and Medicare with voters. She’s kidding herself. Social Security and Medicare were popular from the start and passed with bipartisan support. ObamaCare is unpopular and partisan. It’s extremely controversial. Its passage is far more likely to spark a political explosion than a wave of acceptance.
What have the Democrats brought upon us? They don’t know and they don’t care. As the funding crisis worsens the lies about more benefits while costing less will be spotlighted. The lies that the state Medicaid programs will flow smoothly even if 30 million new people are added to the rolls will be spotlighted. The lie that it will cost only 900 billion or so over 10 years will be spotlighted.
The Democrats have created a new entitlement as our economy is sinking.
This should answer just how irresponsible they can be. Doesn’t matter what it costs, what it does to our economy, what it does to the republic. All that matters is retaining power, and they think that giving people free stuff on the backs of others will keep them in power.
Question is, are they right?
Interesting article appearing in Chicago Tribune (shock!)
“Act II: Slaying the Health Care Legislation”
“The question with the passage Sunday of Democratic health
legislation now becomes: Who will arrive first to slay this monster,
the voters in November or the U.S. Supreme Court?”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-oped-0323-byrne-20100323,0,2003916.story
The author offers that precedent was established when the courts struck down major components of FDR’S New Deal.
Interesting, quick read.
I have two questions for your group. I hope you don’t mind but you do
sound knowledgeable.
#1 If you refuse to buy OBAMACARE you are to be fined.
If you further refuse to cooperate with this ungodly president
the IRS Man is to come to you.
WHAT DOES THE IRS MAN DO TO YOU?
#2 According to OBAMA’s Great (???) plan, the federal government
will pick up the tab for:
a) Everyone who works in the Whitehouse.
b( The Senators and their families.
c) The Representativs and their families.
d) Numerous Aides for Senators and Representatives
and their families.
Now we understand that the Declaration Of Independence states
“…..THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL….”
The DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS/WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY
DOCUMENT! IT IS THE DOCUMENT FROM WHICH OUR WONDERFUL
CONSTITUTION WAS CREATED…it was actually a history of our nation
at the time and proclaimed what the Founding Fathers wented forevermore.
It is what “….WE THE PEOPLE WANT FOREVERMORE…..!” I KNOW I DO!
Which brings me back to my silly question…Why can’t I and my family
have the same deal that OBAMA is offering his friends and co-workers?
Now if I have too much to say, will the IRS man throw me into jail/prison?
Will TIM GEITNER and TOM DASCHLE and a host of other friends of
OBAMA be in there with me? I truly believe that it would be a travesty
to arrest me if he never saw anything wrong with his collegues buddies
being rewarded with great jobs for not paying their taxes/fines.
tess, as one person’s answer to your questions:
When you throw enforcement to the IRS jurisdiction, it is the same as if you didn’t pay your income taxes. They can do garnishing of wages to attaching a lien to your real estate assets that are #1 in line ahead of your primary lender. Generally they take about 3 years for the latter, but the lien and harassment can commence prior to that.
Don’t know if there is a “question” in your #2.
MataHarley, are you really that anal or is this just another liberal’s eloquent way of diverting reality? The answer is all the above except the one at the end of the story gets the shaft!!
I have a question about Obamacare., If 26 year old children will now be covered under their parents health insurance, who pays the premium? Does the premium stay the same? Does the employer pick up the tab? Does the insurance companies absorb the added costs?
not-so-common-sense, what the heck are you referring to? tess’ #1 question was legit. Howver the IRS does not race to arrest you because they can’t collect… they just pay out if you’re in jail. That’s a fallacy many labor under.
#2 was rhetorical. We all know why we can’t have what the elected elistists have.
so what’s your point?
As both the Executive and Legislative branches of government have by and large ignored the Law of the Land it will be up to the individual States and the Judicial branch to take this Illegal and Un-Constitutional bundle of crap to the curb. Both branches of Our Government have utterly and totally failed America with this scam. This is overreach and abuse of power at base level. See the 10th Amendment for details. The Commerce Clause in no way allows for this nonsense. The Constitution does bestow this authority on any branch of Government at State, Federal or local level.
The phrase: Rope, Tree, Politician comes to mind. Pitchforks and Torches come to mind as well with tar and feathers applied liberally to these arrogant criminals as Due Process.
In the meanwhile it is up to the American Voters to raise hell about this tyranny and vote out every single fool in office that voted for it, took payoffs for votes and did not stop this bad bill from becoming law. There is no excuse for this act of treason or any need for a Socialist Program that is not affordable, is not reform in any sense and is destructive and non-constructive for the Citizens that depend on MEDICARE Services that have been bought and paid for. The Law contains no Tort Reform, only a hideous cost and a layer of bureaucracy that is simply unnecessary and unaffordable.
The IRS is well known for draconian efforts and it’s ability to separate you, the taxpayer from assets, resources and act like the class bully in a three piece suit at their whim and your expense. Seizures of Assets, Tax Liens on Property all manner of other mischief are within their venue. The cost to fight them in court is always a King’s Ransom and can go on for years. They are Not Your Friend.
(What the devil is with the smiley doodads here?)
You all need to be defending the Home Front more aggressively from these Enemies of the Republic!
Take Care FA Pardners and Stop this Treason!
MATA i have basic dow ,i can copie it for you …come back?
This monstrosity of legislation is just another reason to move one’s business out of the United States.
God knows under these conditions I wouldn’t open a business in this socialist nightmare.
hi OT2 i see you are very angry too it must be morning for you right now so good day to you and
goodnight to me.
ilovebeeswarzone, bright and early here on the wrong side of the world. Another day ahead. 06:20 Hrs and 49F. High of 76 expected here today.
I have some NATO visitors due in today for a mind bending session. They call it a briefing. I call it something else. A lot of expectations on their part. If they could send more troops it would be taken more seriously on my end. So far they are all hat and not much cattle. Just doing more with less here but they are impressed so it is working.
“THESE are the times that try Men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but “to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER” and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.”
Tom Paine
I’m standing tall here.
Good Night and Take Care!
The route that the IRS must take if you don’t pay you insurance premium is a fine. If you don’t pay your fine it specifically states that you cannot be arrested or put in jail for nonpayment. It says that you cannot have your property taken or a lien placed against it or your wages garnished. It is not clear how the IRS will enforce this mandate. Unless they hire all new non IRS trained people, there is going to be some big problems. Enforcement IRS agents carry firearms. How do they NOT arrest or jail you?
Based on what you’ve written Inspectorudy, that is a major mistake by the writers of the bill. If the GOP is smart, they should exploit it by denying via filibusters to stop the IRS from getting that power/funding to do it.
C’mon all you malcontents, just pay up. After all “This is a big fucking deal!!”
(do I really need to///?)
By the way, the MSM is already saying the GOP will fail in Noember….the propaganda war has started.
This health care thing is insane. It is unconstitutional, unworkable, and they do not have any money to pay for this. We do not need it, do not want it, and we will not stand for it and we will not acquiesce to it, and we will not cooperate with it. WE CANNOT! We do not want socialized medicine! This is a violation of our civil rights and it will not, cannot stand.
These criminals should all be impeached and run out of town. They do not realize what a sleeping giant they have awakened. They will soon find out. I am ready for them. Numerous states are already suing the feds over this. Then there is the Supreme Court. Then there are the people to be heard from. Their voices are exploding over the Internet.
Economically this whole thing is out of the question. We could not afford it even if we wanted it. There is NO MONEY FOR THIS! THERE NEVER WILL BE! There will be rationing of health care. The freeloaders are all jubilant over the passage of this montrous plot, but they have had their reward and will get theirs in the end.
What have we become, a nation of sheep? Of cattle? We cannot let them screw us like this! To hell with this “New World Order” BS! We know what sort of bleak future they “plan” for us. To hell with their plans! Let’s make our own plans! It will be a far, far better world when these evil bastards are gone permanently from this earth. There ain’t enough room on this planet for the both of us!
They won’t stop with “health care,” guys! They are going to “microchip” you eventually. They are going to invade every aspect of your life! They are shooting for ABSOLUTE CONTROL over every aspect of your life. THAT IS THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL! You will have NO SECRECY from Big Brother. They will know EVERYTHING about you, your health, everything. Your money will all be digitized and if you get out of line, they will empty your bank account. You won’t be able to buy food or anything! CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE! THEY CAN TURN YOU INTO A NON-PERSON!
Watch the (late) Aaron Russo video (8 parts on You Tube) if you don’t believe me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvHLedFyfnU
Our Founding Fathers could not have foreseen this abuse of technology, but they certainly understood the nature of tyranny and they warned us in every way that they knew how not to fall for the “sops” and other temptations like “free health care” BS.
Anybody wants to talk more, visit my blog where I talk a lot more about this and I have many great links to back up what I say @: http://the-gimlet-eye.livejournal.com/
Well, Inspector Rudy, that would be very interesting to read. However I see no where in HR 3590 where the IRS Code is altered that if you do not pay fines and penalties, they cannot enforce that in the usual IRS manner of liens and/or garnishment of wages. What you suggest is a specific rewriting of tax codes as it pertains to this. And I’ve been all thru this bill and see no such language.
Perhaps you will tell us on what page of the 2409 piece of crap that is now law we can find this?
As far as arrests, ultimately you can be jailed. Not directly for deliberately remaining uninsured, but for the resulting evasion of payment for IRS liens. Has worked quite well in the past.
A true nightmare, AZ sen. said if Obamacare went through the state would go bankrupt, others to follow.
We are about to see a Civil War fought on paper by the states…. The States Vs. Obama…
@ilovebeeswarzone: That is a very kind offer, Ms. Bees… but somehow I can’t see myself getting revved up over reading a book on Dow Theory. But I do thank you. I’m assuming this is somehow related to rich wheeler and the “thread that shall not be named”? LOL
How about the Equal Protection clause.? The fact that Congressmen are not subject to the “reform” sounds like a violation to me.
“You should have the same healthcare senators do” Sure, just we have to pay for it. HA!
It can’t be stopped, any more than Social Security or Medicare could have been.
Well hes targeting the wrong generation to F* with. Don’t mess with the AARP generation aka boomers and older. They aren’t like the young who have a “whatever” attitude. Keep messing with there Medicare and Social security and the last great generation will take it to the streets again with slogans like “Shut up and go to your room”. I’m starting to see that here where I am they are starting to organize.
Hello, Is this not the beast: The Leviathan?
Empirical proof of the Higgs thesis.
We’ve arrived. They tyranny is here. Our republic, endlessly touted as a democracy, has now degraded to an oligarchy. rapidly accelerating to a tyrannical monarchy. King Hussein Barry Soetoro, and his court: Prince Harry, Princess Nancy, et al. Right down to the court jesters: Bin Biden, and Bawney Fwanks. Thanks Curt. for using that enlightening John Marshall quote
My father used to throw that quote out to me, perhaps a million times. One of the most important quotes in history.
And, the Leviathan does what it does. Hence, this government expansion is not at all coincidental. What better crisis than this “health care” issue? What’s really creepy is the thought, that: As this is post is composed, the Beast also has its eyes on this internet. And, those who might dissent. Our constitution, and all who embrace it, are in real danger here.
Wake up call.
And apparently any bad thought about President Obama is considered dissent in his eyes and those of his Obamatons. Either you like him or he hates you… Free thoughts going out the window.
Hes got his list, his list with names *cough* McCarthy *cough* and the witch hunts begin. YOU’RE A WITCH!
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MATA may i had that it not a book but numbers and years and names,bye
I have MANY reservations about this system ever working. I know I will oppose it. But I would like one small thing to be done, if it is to become the Law of the land. I want to see annual or even semi-annual check ups for the downtrodden that have to subsist on Section 8, welfare, food stamps, DEFACS, and all the other support programs; and if at anytime they show ANY indication of narcotics use, alcohol abuse, STDs, or other poor choices in proper health maintenance, they loose the support payments and have to find their own gainful employment.
Over the years I have personally given many people, help. But I will not repeat the gift, when they squander it foolishly. The situation must be addressed as a Parent/child relationship. If you need my help, you will also receive my suggestions for getting yourself out of the situation you are in. If you choose not to follow my suggestions, don’t come back for more help. This is not Racist, Sexist, or anti-social. This is how you build a Community of responsible people that raise the potential for the Community to be successful and grow in positive directions.
you know, as this win end has developed ,he only wanted the end win… no matter how his side of the party would loose their jobs or even if the majority of AMERICANS refused it as clear as it was… even if the errors in the thousands of pages would bring conflict in the whole country,even if he surely was aware of breaking the rules of the CONSTITUTION,,,he repeated I WON again so it was only to win,nothing else.
Who wins?
Labor unions (specifically, the SEIU). All health care employees will be obliged to join the SEIU, and their dues will go to support Social Democrats. Republicans need not apply.
Non-employed persons, who will have one more government entitlement. Why work when you don’t have to work?
Who loses?
All employees in the private sector, whose benefits will decrease and whose taxes will rise.
All persons with assets. Say goodbye to your investments, as they will disappear in the coming hyper-inflation.
All Senior Citizens, who will discover sooner or later that a Death Panel will cut off all future medical care (at least according to Prof Robert Reich, who should know).
Alas that I have seen this pattern before, in fiction as well as history. See J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King, the return of the hobbits to The Shire.
Do yourselves a favor. Go read The Declaration of Independence again, and determine for yourself whether the depredations imposed by the British Crown on the Colonies are being repeated.
And then respond appropriately.
Wooden Horse-AMEN. There would be so many failing the test, it would revive the economy in about 5 seconds. No more budget deficit.
Mata, I saw the part about the IRS on Fox where they had a couple of staffers from the Hill talking about the consequences if one did not buy insurance. They actually put it on the screen in quotes and said that the language like ALL of the unwritten language and rules of operation by the new bureaucrats has not been firmed up yet. It makes sense in a way because if only 10% of the population decides to NOT buy the mandated insurance then jail could not be an option unless “Camps” were set up across the fruited plains because the numbers would be too large to jail all of the offenders.
Hillbuzz is formulating a strategy to get to the major Dem donors. Apparently Sarah Palin is targeting some specific Dems too. There’s a lot more than this post over there about this measure. The threads over at Hillbuzz are a must read:
http://hillbuzz.org/2010/03/24/who-are-the-20-leftists-sarah-palin-is-targeting-and-how-can-we-help-her/
Seems doubtful you can ever remove an entitlement, short of bankrupting the country. The requirement to buy insurance seems the only aspect that might not survive a court challenge, but consider the alternative – if it fails, the government can just roll out the single-payer plan they wanted all along, and accomplish the same effect.
The Democrats continue to hammer the dwindling pool of high earners and savers to pay for their plans. Ultimately this will be self-defeating, as those people won’t work for nothing. The economic activity will move out of the country where possible, or underground for those willing to break the law, or simply cease for those who can afford to retire from the rat race. Once a uniform mediocrity is achieved, how will they pay for programs without beginning to hit farther and farther below the belt? Apparently recognizing this, the new punitive taxes aren’t indexed to inflation to create another AMT-like monster that won’t be noticed by the average guy until well after the current officials are out of office or dead.
US top tax rates will be higher than those in Canada, once state/province income taxes are included. It will make sense for high-income or high-net-worth individuals to move there. It’ll save them money and unlike in the US, they’ll actually be covered by the system they’re paying for rather than excluded from it.
P.S. since all of their entitlement ticking bombs are going to blow up one by one over the coming decade or three, I almost want the Democrats to remain in charge, so everyone can see that there is no one else to blame for the mess. You broke it, you bought it. Only when the socialism implodes will the MSM and the average zombie voter finally get it that there isn’t a pile of free loot just waiting to be redistributed, that someone actually has to produce things, someone has to save and invest for the future to have any capital infrastructure.
So, you lost on the substance and you lost on the process and now you want to litigate. That pretty much sums it up, eh? Lol.
This bill stipulates that “Free preventative care for all” must be provided.
Who is endentured to provide this?
Where in the Constitution does it allow for one man to be forced to serve another for free? I thought we did away with slavery.
If we can be forced to provide free preventative care for all what else we be mandated to provide without compensation? Can we be mandated to work for two weeks a year for nothing?
This cannot possibly be Constitutional.
@Dirty
Yup. We learned it from the Gay-marriage folks. Thanks for the lesson.
Free preventative care, hmm. What does that cover? Sex ed to prevent STDs? Foot checks for diabetics? There’s a deep-seated belief in health professions, that if only we could get those patients soon enough, before they are sick, we can prevent their problems through screening and education, and then–costs will go down! As you can imagine, the cost effectiveness of proving that a past intervention delayed or prevented illness is pretty hard to pin down, except as a global trend. But since correlation does not equal causality, and that is a trend over a long period of time, and many other things are going on that affect health at the same time, it’s a squishy feel-good conclusion often.
@Inspectorudy, this is hint of truth. As I said, the IRS isn’t going to jail you right out of the gate. Nor are they going to send Curt to your door if you don’t purchase insurance, or pay the penalty.
The way they are getting away with this for the Constitutional battles is they are labeling this regulation of interstate commerce, and throwing the accounting/collection to the IRS to verify the regulations are being followed.
When you don’t pay your property taxes, the county or city tax assessor is the “IRS” enforcement arm. Again, Curt doesn’t show up at your door. If you have a lender, they pay it for you then up your payment to a PITI payment that includes collecting for both your homeowners insurance and property taxes in a escrow account for the following year’s payment. If you don’t have a lender, they slap a lien against your property… usually a couple to three years downline. IRS and all other tax liens supercede the 1st postition morgage lender, so any sale has proceeds first paying off the tax assessor and any IRS collections. If you have no net proceeds, they slap a judgment on you.
In the case of income taxes, again after time… not immediately… they place a lien against any assets. If you don’t have assets, they file a judgment. And they are relentless in collection. If, after time, you don’t pay, they most certainly will jail you.
So are the Hill staffers correct in saying you won’t get arrested for not paying penalties or purchasing insurance? Technically yes. But they most certainly use the IRS methods of collection, and I haven’t seen any language that dictates a change in the IRS Code that states to the contrary in the bill.
Bad news for you, Wooden Horse… it has become law of the land as of yesterday morning’s signing. What has *not* become law of the land is the supposed “reconciliation bill” that the House Dems sold out for as a promise to “fix” a bill they don’t like. I’ll be darned why they call it reconciliation. The House approved the Senate amended text as is, and sent HR3590 on to the POTUS for signature with the identical text. Therefore there is no “reconciliation”. Technically, this is a “fix it bill”. And the Senate is not going to say yes to the same language.
The House Dems were fools to trust the Senate Dems… or else they were paid off sufficiently to accept what they don’t want. But there’s no future references to this. It’s enacted. It’s here. And battling it down, from what I’ve been reading so far, is going to be a long shot.
It can be repealed, but not until 2013.
Could the next Republican Congress and President mandate that lawyers provide pro bono work 50% of the time?
This is only a symptom. Unfortunately, the cure is a dangerous one, that cure, IMHO is a Constitutional convention. If the language of the “interstate commerce,” and “general welfare,” clauses are not tightened up and mad absolutley clear we will loose the country. We also need to eliminate the “anchor baby problem.” I would also like to see the income tax replaced by a sales tax but that probably will never happen.
The problem with this approach, of course, is the chance that we could actually loose things like the 2nd amendment and get something ludacris like a “right to health care” put into the document. I’m clutching at straws here because I just can not understand how so many so called Americans can be so easily bought.
We can not rely on the whims of political parties, we need to go straight to the source on this.
THE gimlet eye it was very interesting reading your blog until i read about the both partys not being as better as the other,i think that in november people should vote for the Republican party as all on the same side to win and until then it is to promote the all for one votes so that nobody get confuse as we know not every one has your knowledge of politic as i read in your blog,..bye
Quite a few states are apparently already leading the charge…
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/texas-joins-florida-and-other-states-in-filing-lawsuit-against-unconstitutional-health-care-deform/
Apparently, states can already opt out of the mandate…..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/wyden-health-care-lawsuit_n_511748.html?ref=twitter
@Cary:
“…provided that, as Wyden puts it, “they can meet the coverage requirements of the bill‘.”
I.e., they can “opt out” as long as they don’t “opt out.”
That’s misleading. They can opt out only if they set up their own mandated system.
@drjohn:
They are a slippery and sleezy lot.
yonason
And that was being kind!
I just heard an anecdote about 0 that’s relevant to the plans of the future. I’m having some repairs done, my electrician’s wife works for Safeway, we’re talking about how people’s health habits can be surveilled through their grocery “club” cards (i.e. buy a lot of booze? cigarettes? fatty meat? your store knows all about you and could tell your insurance company which might decide you are a higher risk) and he was well familiar with the idea because Safeway pioneered this. Their employees are required to have minicheckups every six (?) months. Then if their cholesterol is low, say, they get a certain discount off their health insurance. Or, their insurance rate could go up if they gained weight. Now this is extremely sensible from the insurer’s standpoint because they keep a close watch on the status of their pool and adjust rates accordingly. What could be better? If it wasn’t so intrusive. But people are slaves to health insurance now, they will do anything.
And here’s the punchline. Last year 0 gathered a number of executives to hear their ideas about health insurance costs. One was the CEO of Safeway. 0 was especially taken with his ideas. I guess this answers my own question about the “preventative care” that will be “free.” It will be our mandatory inspections to see how fit we are. I have to say, this is the public health professional’s dream, to control health. This is why I quit the APHA this year. I got tired of reading about all the “disparities” that are burdening the world. I even had a naughty thought that maybe, just maybe, if certain groups always come in last in health, no matter where in the world they are or what has been done, it could be that they are genetically inferior; this is an unspeakable thought, I know. Especially to liberals who are sure that throwing money will make people equal. And no preventative care is going to take care of that.
it’s very dangerous if the money factor is the prime interest in the GOVERNMENT health care and it also a possibility that it will,the PEOPLES will loose their individuality and be treated like robots,
ilovebeeswarzone–
I’d say that’s why we’re freaked over it, money is always the primary interest in government. And it would be ok if we could clean out the corruption out more often. This is one of the lessons from Jesus’ saying “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto Gd what is Gd’s” To me this is saying, you don’t get better government in a theocracy, you get worse religion. However, He never advocated overthrowing the government, because the world needs governing.
pat i agree of your comment except that i find that the leader of a SUPERPOWER should be chosen very wisely by his people because he could be very deceifull by being gifted with a tongue that could lead his country into chaos and incapable to fix that,,bye
pat there is 2 pat on the other post[democrat admit...]now which one are you ?the one on 14th in the other post or the one below on the other post, bye
drjohn and yonason —
I am betting that neither of you knew that about the bill, did you? Here all this time the GOPers yelled about the mandate being unconstitutional, and now we know that the “mandate” is optional? W.t.f.? What was the purpose of giving you cons 72 hours to read the bill before it is voted on, if you weren’t going to read it anyway?
ilovebeeswarzone,
I’m the Zonie who responded to #14. But I’m not #14. Once long ago I was registered as a Democrat because in this state you had to choose one or the other, since then we can register as an Independent and that’s what I am now. The downside is that I can’t vote in either primary.
and I’m the pat that wrote the posts above you, Bees.
so pat one of you will have to take a number thank’s for clearing it and you’ll have to get in touch with the other pat so you can take a diffrent number bye now i will answer the other pat
@BRob:
Are you really that stupid? “You don’t have to use our plan, as long as what you do is exactly like our plan,” means it ISN’T “OPTIONAL,” moron.
Sign the pledge…
http://repealitpledge.com/
as found here…
http://www.c3headlines.com/
Mata, this was just put up on the Daily Caller concerning the IRS and the HCR bill.
Now Democrats are touting protections they have added to limit the reach of the tax man. “The bill specifically prohibits the IRS from confiscating taxpayer assets, from using liens or levies, or imposing criminal penalties of any kind — including jail time — because of a lack of health care coverage,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office said in a statement.
The health care law signed by President Obama Tuesday says that, “notwithstanding” other federal laws, taxpayers “shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty” for failure to pay the fines
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/24/democrats-tout-restrictions-on-irss-reach-in-health-care-law/#ixzz0j9xS0ySV
I don’t have clue as to how you fine someone but can’t enforce the penalty for not paying the fine.
Pat pat pat Patvann.
It’s like some sort of strange vortex of snake-haters.
@Inspectorudy:
So, Inspector Rudy. Just out of curiousity, and since there is no language in the bill that Obama signed into law that I can find that alters IRS Code, would you be inclined to believe the same bunch that said kids are covered from day one… ooops… we mean from 2014?? LOL
Don’t get me wrong. I know on which side you live, guy. What I’m saying is there’s a lot of media and a lot of mouth pieces going on about a 2409 pg bill that the lot of them never read. And now they are getting caught with their knickers down by stuff they promised that just ain’t so. I suspect this isn’t the last of it either.
So let’s go back to what I said. Can they jail you for not paying the fine? No. Not directly. But if that leads to liens or judgements for indirect reason, they can garnish wages and have you jailed.
Let’s examine the opening line of the “no criminal penalties” bit they are touting… It says:
What is IRS Code but one of those “other provisions of law”??? This is precisely why the Joint Committeee on Taxation sent off a note about IRC 7203, which addresses *willful* failure to file or pay….
Now let’s use your own link to prove exactly what the Joint Committee on Taxation said is, and remains, true:
So let’s go back to the beginning again. If you do not pay, will they immediately jail you? Attach your assets? Place a judgment against you?
No.
Will they investigate *why* you didn’t pay, and demand proof of your inability to pay?
I’ll bet my bottom dollar they will… they are desperate for that cash because it’s built into their lyin’ ass budget.
Now, if they determine you are *willfully* not paying a fine or penalty, they most certainly can impose that “other provision of law” that is “not withstanding” by using deliberate tax evasion. And this is exactly what the Joint Committee on Taxation was pointing out.
Are they seeking to jail impoverished people? No. But they will prosecute conscientious
objectors in a heartbeat.
So, as usual, Pelosi is either dumber than a box of rocks from Skookum’s back yard, or she is lying thru her teeth. Either one works for me.
@BRob:
Once again commenting on something you have no knowledge of, eh?
Best read the posts above you before you beclown yourself again.
yonason and Little Dog –
Let’s take this SLOW shall we?
Medicare and Medicaid are voluntary programs for the states. They don’t have to take the money and they don’t have to be involved. Obamacare includes billions of dollars to every state to fund the transition. So there are two ways of getting out from under the mandate:
1) drop out of Medicare and Medicaid altogether, or
2) create your own program.
If your argument to a judge is that “Obamacare involves the feds forcing a mandate on individuals to buy insurance”, my first question as a judge is
“How is any individual harmed by having medical coverage, especially of there is a subsidy to buy it?” The laws against suicide, too, encroach on individual freedom . . . but is anyone harmed by that? And
“If the government forces hospitals to provide care to anyone who shows up, why can’t the government force the individuals to have some financial coverage for that care, so the rest of us are not burdened by the uninsured’s un-paid-for care?”
Y’all still haven’t given me an answer to either question, but I am still waiting. These two questions alone will sink the cons’ lawsuits. But it gets better . . . .
The judge will then ask
“Mr. McCollum, isn’t it true, as the US attorneys state here, that the states can opt out of the mandate by getting a waiver and setting up their own plan?”
“Yes. But that plan would have to be universal.”
“But that is a deal between the federal government and the states, that it be universal, correct? Not a mandate on the individuals in the State of Florida that they have their own coverage?”
[McCollum, cornered] “Um . . . sorta. If I follow you.”
“We can agree that a mandate on the State of Florida to cover all its citizens is different than a mandate on the 23 million individuals to get their own coverage, correct?”
“Uh . . . can I take a bathroom break?”
“No. I am almost done here. A mandate on the State of Florida to cover all its citizens is different than a mandate on the 23 million individuals to get their own coverage, yes?”
[indeciferable]
“Mr. McCollum, isn’t it also true that the states can opt out of their federal mandate by opting out of Medicare and Medicaid?”
“I really need to pee . . . .”
“So wouldn’t it be fair to say that the mandate on the states is actually through the Spending Clause power? You can get rid of the mandate by not taking the federal money by not having a federally funded Medicare and Medicaid program right? You can have a completely state funded program, or no program at all, and there would be no mandate?”
[McCollum wets pants] “Yeah . . . I guess so . . . ”
“Mr. McCollum . . . did you actually read the statute before you filed your lawsuit?”
“That was someone else’s task. I just signed it.”
[judge turns to fed's attorneys] “I will not entertain a motion for sanctions until 30 days have passed, enough time for them to rethink their complaint.”
* * * * *
That, cons, is why the most curious law suit argument is toast.
This is the first “right” that we get, that the government forces us to partake in…
We have Freedom of Speech, but nobody is forcing us with threats of jail and fines if we want to sit down and shut up.
This is the first “Right” that forces another to give away their property to another. Can we all now get plumbers to work for less then their costs? Yes, “time” is a persons property…just ask any lawyer.
SPEED BUMP?, or DEATH KNELL?
Hopefully the latter.
_________________________________________________________________
One way or another, ObamaScare (and virtually every other Demoncrat initiative) MUST be stopped or reversed.
PATVANN the more pat the more snakes w’ll catch
bye
patvann –
As it stands now, you have the “right”, via federal mandates on hospitals, to receive care even if you cannot show you have the money to pay or insurance to have a third party pay on your behalf. So please explain to me what is so wrong about you being required to pony up for insurance to pay for the care you have the right to demand?
And since this is done through the tax system IF you don’t get insurance on your own, how is that any different than government taking tax dollars to pay for something else that benefits you, like the air traffic control system?
And the better point — how are you harmed by having private health insurance?
You cons are freaking out over a philosophical opposition to something that is good financial planning and basic common sense: adults should insure themselves and their children against catastrophic medical expenses, which can amount to the millions in a bad case. Only today’s cons would find this basic point of adult responsibility to be some kind of Hitleresque policy of “government tyranny.”
You really have your head pretty far up the Obama/Pelosi/Reid rear tranny, don’t you, billy bob. No one argues that having insurance is responsible, and desireable. The problem is that health insurance has become cost prohibitive. And your party getting into the business of price fixing insurance premiums, and adjusting payouts to accommodate for the costs, isn’t anything close to a logical cure. None of it does anything to stop the reasons health costs are rising. And it’s not because of insurance provider profits.
What is most objectionable is what you, yourself, wrote…
Yes.. it is government tyranny. Personal responsibility is not to be construed with compliance with government mandates, backed up with the full force of IRS enforcement. And that’s your flaw. You figure to control people’s “responsible” characteristics by tort. That is the definition of tyranny… imposition of oppressive conditions by outside agencies or by force.
This is quite natural for you… a cradle to grave nanny government type. It’s just not natural in the country created by our framers and founders. Thus the “philosophical” opposition you so easily diss.
@BRob:
What’s wrong is that the government can’t run it, will destroy quality health care, drive prices through the roof, and ration what little they remain able to supply. What’s wrong is your scenario is a fairy tale that can’t work, like all other failed socialist programs.
The private sector is what has made America great, not the government. Every time government gets involved in something, they screw it up. Government’s job is to make sure we all play fair and stay honest, and to come down on those of us who don’t. Government innovates nothing, except waste when they try to.
And why are they so incompetent? Well, apart from not knowing as much about medicine as Doctors, or about insurance as insurance companies, they are crooks.
@MataHarley:
Nice. You’re always a joy to read, but you seem to be getting even better. That little vacation must have been restful?
Billy Bob’s thought process would lead to the gov. telling us what “Healthy” food to eat. Say good bye to all of the fast food and pizza parlors. Say goodbye to any form of alcohol too. Then there is the “Sports” activities that we stupid humans indulge in like scuba, sky and muff diving that can be injurious to our health that would banned to save on potential health related costs. The speed limit in our new gov underpowered, mandated automobiles would drop to 50mph or less. Motorcycles would be out naturally. Movies would have to be G or PG to prevent any type of imputed violence. All knives would only be sharp one inch in from the point which could not be pointed to prevent injury. Guns? Forget the 2nd amendment and all of the violence that is generated by honest citizens. Remember we all have to pay for the good and the bad guys health care. So if you actually shot a rapist or robber it would cost us all more in the long run. This list could go on and on and it will if the nannys in DC don’t butt out of our lives.
Just triaging here on the home front, Yon. Swamped with work, it was tax time and I had to incorporate the new biz I started. And when I did get free time, I’ve been researching/trying to second guess brief arguments on the states’ challenges. Oddly enough, there isn’t a plethora of SCOTUS or district opinions on unfunded mandates. Interesting, eh? Might be time for one….
@Blob
You can always identify a NeoFascist by the way they conflate words and meanings to suit their own purpose.
I do NOT have a “Right” to receive care…I have “permission from the state”. Learn the difference. You have a Right to bear arms. Should we fine you if you don’t own the “required” caliber weapon? You have “permission from the state” to drive a car….Or should we tax you for not driving?
I already pay for my own benefits. So should everyone else. Why should you pay for mine, and visa-versa? The government takeover of Healthcare payments have nothing to do with the need for air-traffic controllers, because there is no existing private version being run out of the market.
I’m not. I want to keep it that way. With Obamacare, my privately paid-for insurance is jeopardized, AND I have to pay more in taxes to support those who don’t prioritize their life’s bills.
Adults SHOULD insure themselves. Why won’t Obama and you Fascists let us? Why won’t you let the cures proven to work be put into place?
Answer: POWER
Mata, yonason, etc. –
I keep coming back to the practical and you people keep going off on these Randian flights of fancy. You may THINK that government is evil tyrannical, etc., but the reality is that our ELECTED GOVERNMENT is a function of the choices the voters of America have made. You want to live in a state of nature where you can do whatever the hell you please? Be my guest. But that ain’t this country and never has been. Feel free, however, to find one that is more to your liking.
I love how you cons always dodge discussing the government benefits you suck up with gusto. But guess what? You non-insurance bearing weasels get your broken legs set on MY DIME. So I, for one, am pretty happy that, in exchange for getting that care, government benefit leeches are now required to get insurance for you and your unfortunate offspring. Now maybe the hospitals will have to offer less uncompensated care . . . you know, that other category your cons don’t like to address when you talk about your “right” to have health care and have no insurance.
It is not “government” driving up the cost of health insurance. . . because, before Tuesday, the feds weren’t even involved in health insurance! No, it is people with no insurance who run up a $107,000 hospital bill, then don’t pay it. Funny you cons never discuss how wrong it is to have a “nanny state” when you are sucking on the government teat . . . .
MATA I might add also the danger of the ones who will try to collect the tax or the fee is about caracters that are on the bully inclined might push it at your place and get you angry enouph to throw them out and you go to jail or pay the fine ..and that was a sneaky tactic from the employee ,a scenario.design in advance to shine,the more they would get the higher they get in rank
@Blob
Oh. My. Gawd. The fact that the Fed is responsible for 40% of all healthcare expenditures, is completely foreign to this twit…I guess Medicare is paid for with cookies and unicorn scat.
This boy is willfully retarded.
Really dood. You have nothing else to offer here, other than entertainment.
While everyone bandies about the health care mandate aspect of this, you are completely ignoring the gigantic tax increase. Let me do the math for you BRob: someone in the top tax bracket in a state like California will be paying 39.6% + 3.8% + 9.3%, more than 1/2, on interest income from his or her savings. Once inflation returns, most of that “income” is actually just inflation on the original principal. For example, if inflation’s 3% and interest is 4%, you keep 2% nominal but lose 1% in real purchasing power. How can you defend that as fair? More than that, is it wise to effectively punish savings and use the tax system to reward or increase consumption in an economy that’s already borrowing to cover a shortfall between production and consumption?
Make no mistake, the ultra-wealthy, including the big Hollywood stars, ball players, CEOs, trust-fund heirs, and wealthy litigators won’t be paying these taxes – their armies of lawyers and accountants will see to that. The goal of the ultra-elites is to buy the votes of the masses by stripping the wealth of upper-middle-class wage slaves who don’t have these options, to achieve a uniform mediocrity. It won’t work, though – utlimately discouraging work and savings while rewarding the opposite is unsustainable. Once you’ve quashed enough economic activity, you’ll never close the deficits.
@BRob:
The voters were lied to, by the pols and by the MSM, and by clowns like yourself. The only time you dare to tell the truth is when you think it won’t matter anymore.
They called us all kinds of nasty names when we said it was Socialism, and that we were lying. But now THEY are calling it what it is, because they think there’s nothing we can do about it.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/sharpton-americans-overwhelmingly-voted-for-socialism-when-they-elected-obama-video/
But then, telling the truth up front isn’t something you are capable of.
THE GIMLET EYE: hi, LET me say that I visited your site and was very impress with all the difrents subject which you wrote very well, now I was wondering if you stop completly or for a while april but MAY JUNE JULY are not there. april was very interresting. bye
Hello, ilovebeeswarzone,
Thanks for the kind response! I’m glad you liked my material. I have not done much with my website lately, being so very busy with other matters. I’ve just been able to tinker a bit here and there the last few weeks. My main interests are politics, history, economics, government, law, and, of course, conspiracies. That covers a lot of ground, so don’t be surpised to see a wide variety of entries on various subjects.
No, I have not given up. I am planning to gear up again very soon with some new items of interest. There is no lack of potential material, that’s for sure!
Good luck
http://the-gimlet-eye.livejournal.com/