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19 Dec
Sell Out! Nebraska’s Sen. Ben Nelson (D) Gets His Price for Health Care Vote
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Saturday, December 19th, 2009 at 8:47 am | 597 views
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Another blogger, one of my fellow medical professionals wrote:
“The current health care system works nothing like a free market system. Enormous barriers to market entry and competition permeate a heavily-regulated system. Tax schemes skew consumption and resource allocation; government backed guilds control the supply of providers. We have heavy regulation and control of medical devices and medications; government-funded research is patented for private profit and patent laws function as price supports. The government says who can treat me, how they can treat me, what I can and can’t put into my body and from whom I may make purchases of what I put in my body.”
She is absolutely right. And Americans will continue to pay 40 to 60% more for medical outcomes comparable to those achieved by other first world economies because pinhead conservatives defend, tooth and nail, a professional guild system and a highly regulated marketplace that raises costs to patients, while pretending that they are defending free market principles and small government. Conservatives are, for the most part, absolutely clueless about the economics of the American health care system that has largely been cobbled together and regulated on the basis of rent seeking. Conservatives have offered nothing, zero, zip, nada, to stem consumer bleeding that fills private pockets with the gains of government granted privilege and marketplace regulation.
Until I hear something indicating that conservatives have even the remotest clue about the economics of health care, I will take their complaints about democrats as a case of self-deluding black pot-kettle syndrome. Had conservatives actually acknowledged, in some fashion, the underlying tension between government regulation of quality and pricing, we could have had an interesting discussion. As the debate actually unfolded, it was nothing more than a collision of nitwit partisanship on both sides.
@A working Doc
Replace the word Conservative with Republican, and I agree with you. The two are not the same.
Milton Friedman, The Heritage Foundation, Ayn Rand, Cato….Those are in direct opposition to the likes of McCain, Bush and others like them.
I suggest you look around more, especially on this site. There are lots of Republicans who see what you see, and have expressed better ideas. Unfortunately, none of them are elected yet.
@A working Doc: I’m sorry you missed the many GOP elected officials, including a number of physicians, who expressed the same concerns you have.
You can’t be blamed for not hearing about as their opinions are not covered by the media and Democrats vote against every single one of their amendments to legislation.
And so, I disagree with Patvann that “none” of these common sense conservatives have been elected yet.
To a Working Doc: Jeffery Flier, Dean of the Harvard Med School has written extensively that the bills proposed by the Dems do absolutely nothing to reduce costs (or bend the curve as the big O is want to say), do nothing to improve the quality or quantity of medical services presently available to Americans, and do nothing to improve medical outcomes. I tend to trust his perspectives as it took considerable courage for him to go public in the context of the political realities of medical academia. Indeed, Dean Flier’s view is also the consensus of every responsible medical professional who has read the bills, understands the proposed structures and has considered the matter. It is also the conclusion of the CBO, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic. Doc, these guys have credibility. The current bills layer on over one hundred bureaucratic boards and agencies, add hundreds of thousands of government employees, and add further and enormous complexities to the problems that you perceive not to mention the huge costs, extensive taxation and inevitable fiscal waste. In other words, the evils which you describe (and in my opinion greatly exaggerate), are only aggravated by the pending measures. The fact that the proposed “reforms” are supported by approximately 40% of the population and opposed by approximately 60% suggests that Americans aren’t stupid. Finally, the introduction of criminal penalties into the health care delivery system should open your eyes wide. Not only is the failure to obtain medical insurance criminalized, but a doctor’s decision to utilize a treatment that is not specifically approved by one of the boards is criminalized as well. Further, medical innovation is heavily taxed and in some instances prohibited. Rationing is overt and clearly imposed. Doctors are compensated not on the basis of the quality of their outcomes, but on the basis of services that they don’t provide.
I suggest that you take some time away from your busy practice and read the most recent iteration of the Senate bill and also, HR3200 which is the bill apparently passed in the House. It is, of course ironic that there is no Senate bill at the moment and the final bill is being written behind closed doors. One wonders what surprises await us there.
You are very partisan and spout most of the Dems talking points. In fact, the majority of Americans are highly satisfied with their health care arrangements. Here in California and elsewhere, Kaiser Permanente provides excellent medical services at reasonable costs without any of the regulatory overhead contained in the pending bills/proposals. I am a highly pleased participant in the Kaiser Senior Advantage program which I will lose if either the Senate or House bill passes. There are about 14 million seniors in the same position. So much for Obama’s promise that if you like your health care now, you won’t have to change. There are good solutions and the Kaiser model is one of them, but I defy you to spell out what portions of the pending proposals/bills appropriately address any the defects that you enumerate. Like so many on the left, facts just don’t seem to matter to you. Instead, we get these endless rants and political attacks.
Republicans have repeatedly proposed incremental changes that promise cost control, reduce irrational mandates, and address the issues of defensive medicine. Every economist who has addressed the cost problem has concluded that as long as we rely on third party payers, health consumers will have no incentives to participate in the control of utilization or of costs. Therefore, Republicans propose an expansion of health savings accounts which are under the control of the consumers and which encourage medical thrift. Medical related litigation imposes a heavy cost burden on the system not only from the huge costs associated with litigation itself, but also by encouraging the practice of defensive medicine which economists have estimated adds about 20% to the overall costs of medical services. (How are your malpractice premiums working out?) California and other states have enacted medical malpractice reform that has driven down these costs and there is much more to do. I say that as a litigating attorney that has practiced for nearly 40 years.
State mandates are out of control. In California, insurance must cover acupuncture, chiropractic, and a whole host of procedures and services that are outside of mainstream medicine. Likewise, in New York, Michigan and New Jersey (those are states where I have some familiarity) among others, there is a whole host of insurance mandates which drive up the costs of insurance and drive up the costs of medical services. The pending bills threaten to add to that mandate burden rather than reducing it to a baseline that will provide a reasonable level of medical services to insureds at reasonable costs. Again, in the opinion of every study that I have read, and I have read lots, allowing insurance to be sold and/or purchased across state lines would substantially increase competition and would drive down insurance costs especially with the mandate reform discussed above. Not one of these elements is contained in any of the pending bills.
Finally, the left holds up Medicare as the model. Medicare suffers a fraud loss that is estimated to be a minimum of 17% and as high as 25%. Medicare denies coverage much more frequently than private insurers. Finally, the reimbursement rates of medicare are generally inadequate to cover the actual delivery costs to the providers. The result is that the providers charge the insured at higher rates so as to cover that shortfall. This has been publicly confirmed both the Mayo and the Cleveland clinics.
Republicans acknowledge that the system has its flaws and that there are elements that should be reformed. However, they do not have the hubris to presume that they know how to completely take over 17% of the economy in 2000 pages. Moreover, Republicans do not believe that government is capable of efficiently managing very much. Go to your DMV for a lesson in government efficiency. Look at the pending bankruptcies of California, Michigan, New York and New Jersey to see how big government handles the business of the people. I have lived in all four states. I have always been interested in such matters. I have seen the train a’coming and it ain’t pretty.
Disturber.
@Mike
By “none”, I was (badly) inferring the members of our little site. There are indeed some true Conservatives serving as Reps, and I see that number rising in 2010.
@ Disturber:
JFK’s book Profiles in Courage is billed as “a collection of stories describing acts of bravery and integrity by eight U.S. Senators”. Such a book couldn’t be written today due to lack of subject material.
Question: Who is it that sells their favors for money, and works at 1AM?
Answer: The U.S. Senate, of course.
Hello all,
I am the one who wrote the blog post about Republican leadership stepping down that was alluded to earlier by John Cooper. First of all, thanks for reading and linking. To the next comment by Mikes America that it is insane to ask Republicans who asked for earmarks to step down from leadership positions I strongly disagree. First of all, Mike should read the whole article. Secondly, I didn’t ask for them to be purged from the party, I asked them to step down from leadership positions, and I stated they don’t deserve your vote in the PRIMARY.
All of the huge earmarks that were jammed through by democrats used the Republican example as a justification. This nation is in a terrible crisis in terms of the unconstitutional nature of our government and the way in which Washington D.C. spends money. Attitudes by Republicans like Mike are exactly what gets these guys elected over and over again. They lean conservative around election time, then proceed to spend like crazy and vote for unconstitutional bills incessantly. Then, we are surprised when a majority of the public gets disgusted with both parties and won’t show up at the polls.
There needs to be a clear choice in America. If voters want huge amounts of tax dollars to go to pet projects, silly studies and bridges to nowhere, then they should have a party for that. If they want to throw the Constitution into the trash heap and turn this nation into a socialist country, I suppose they should even have that choice. However, they should also have the choice of a party that respects the constitutional limits on federal power, refuses to waste the taxpayers hard earned money, and stands by the principles in which this country was founded. The Republican party is the only party anywhere near that right now so it is the logical choice to deliver such choice to it’s members.
If Mike wants to vote for members who waste his tax dollars and trash the Constitution, he should leave the party also; there is a party that would be glad to have him; they’re called democrats and they do that kind of thing consistently. As for me and mine, we want a responsible, constitutional party to choose.
God Bless,
Keith D. Rodebush
http://ignorancebreedstyranny.blogspot.com
@Keith Rodebush: Your attitude explains exactly why we now call Nancy Pelosi SPEAKER of the House and Harry Reid MAJORITY LEADER of the Senate.
When you say I “should leave the party” you are expressing that INSANE purge mentality which is more responsible than anything Mitch McConnell did or did not do which now puts the Dems takeover of health care on a glide path.
My goal has always been to elect a conservative governing majority. To get there means we have to put up with the occasional Olympia Snowe. Your attitude and short sighted thinking would have her and many more currently serving in the U.S. Senate become Democrats. In short, the GOP would become a permanent MINORITY party and the Democrats would rule forever!
To suggest that I support candidates who “waste []tax dollars and trash the Constitution” Is absurd. Shame on you. Sadly, that’s the typical reaction we get from many folks who have never done anything to advance the cause and can only be counted on to complain. Are you one of them?
Other than run your mouth off tearing down the GOP I don’t know what you have done to actually make it better. Myself, I’ve been working on campaigns and supporting conservative candidates for decades. I’m the veteran of multiple statewide campaigns in Ohio and went all the way to the top working in the White House for Ronald Reagan. I’m happy to have worked for or been associated with the founding fathers of the conservative movement. Google John Ashbrook if you want another clue.
I strongly encourage any and all who believe in conservative principles to get involved in their local, state and the national party. But please don’t sit here from the sidelines and preach to those who have already won their battle stars that you somehow are a superior variant of conservatism. It’s annoying to those of us like myself who have actually made the personal sacrifices necessary to advance the cause and your attitude is ultimately one of the primary roadblocks preventing the conservative movement from reaching that ultimate goal of a conservative governing majority.
John Cooper: I stand by my earlier, what you called “childish”, bit of namecalling. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to expand on exactly what the problem is. Mr. Rodebush is a perfect example of the problem.
P.S. I am very happy to see that 75% of the readers here agree with me and are satisfied with the job the GOP Senate leadership did!
Bravo, Keith.
Mike–
I’m just glad that your low expectations for Senators doesn’t extend to…say…doctors or airline pilots.
“Well, Dr. Smith meant well, but unfortunately the patient died…” “Captain Jones has thirty years senority and tried his best, but unfortunately the plane crashed…”
We’ll know very soon whether playing nice is a good strategy. Personally, I agree with Charles Krauthammer, not your popularity poll.
@Mike
The Repubs we’ve had since 2000 vs the present-day Dems reminds me of choosing between fast-Jihad, or slow Jihad.
I choose no Jihad, and had McCain won, we would still be on the at same slow path that brought us Prescription Drugs, SChip, Shamnesty, Harriet Meyers, a doubling of the debt even if we don’t count the wars and numerous other things that would make Reagan and Goldwater spin in their graves.
Had McCain won and continued this “Demo-light” program, would you still be so adamant in your support of the GOP?
BTW, your poll has NOTHING to do with this topic. It asked ONE narrow question about ONE Bill, and did NOT address the larger issue of: “Are Republicans worthy of our support if they continue to act like Democrat-light?”
The voters and the Republican leadership needed a wakeup call. I thought that happened in 2006, but evidently it didn’t because the stoopid Repubs did what they always do, and put forth the oldest, most senior person who’s “turn” it was, NOT who was the best man to beat the Dems. Between 2006 and 8, they did NOTHING to further the cause of Conservatism.
So it finally took an Obama to wake the Leadership (and the voters) up, yet as far as I’m concerned Steel is still stuck in the old “checkpants” methodology, and only last week seemed to have woke up, after talking smack about the TeaParty movement.
What I can’t figure out is your “Republicans no matter how bad they suck” attitude, when you’ve spent time with Meese.
Yes Republicans need to win, but if it leads to the same place as Dems will take us, but just take a little longer, that what’s the freakin point?
The voter-led push to the Right was NOT done by the Republican leadership. They (begrudgingly)followed US. We saw in their support OF THE WRONG CANDIDATE in New York-23, that they STILL don’t believe that we WANT TO SUPPORT THEM IF THEY WANT TO SUPPORT US!!!!!
They (most of them, not all) still don’t seem to get that if they go Conservative, they will win every election they can muster up. If they hold to principle, they will win.
They put up another McCain, I will stay home AGAIN. In my home state, if they put up another Arnold, I will stay home, BECAUSE THERE IS NO FREAKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ARNOLD/MCCAIN AND PETERSON/OBAMA other than the speed in which they lead us all to hell.
Look at how many established Repubs bashed Palin… A lady with an 80% approval rating in her state, yet gets crapped on by McCain’s own staff for the money THEY spent on her.
Why do I get the feeling that had Obama had an “R” behind his name, your would support him?
If you still have connections within the party, tell them to go where their voters are: OVER HERE ON THE RIGHT! If they do that, I will vote for them. If they do that, I will support them with my VERY considerable wealth, If they do that, I will spread the word for them.
But no. I already see my state Republicant’s supporting Meg freakin Whitman over Insurance Commisioner Steve Poizner! A lady who thinks global warming will kill us all, liked Van Jones, supports dual-language education, and wants to expand MediCal, when Steve (who lives down the street from me) fights to get his name spelled correctly in the press-releases put out by the party.
@John Cooper:
Funny…I’m the one often accused of “playing nice” (indirectly by Mike’s America, btw).
@Keith Rodebush:
That’s why primaries are for teaching lessons…general is for standing behind the Republican candidate. Which you acknowledge in your post.
Basically, Keith, you and Mike are on the same team, lobbing snowballs at each other and getting a bit ruffled up under the feathers. In some sense, you might be talking past one another.
You say you’re talking about not supporting the less-than-fiscal-responsible Republican in PRIMARY. You say you’re not calling for a party “purge”. Yet some of your rhetoric seems to call for just such a purge. I don’t think either you or Mike want wishy-washy Republicans like Olympia Snowe in leadership positions. But you do have to factor into the equation electability and the districts in which they represent. A pure conservative Republican could have zero chance of winning in the general….so sometimes you do have to put forth a candidate you only agree with 70% of the time in order to beat the one you will agree with zero % of the time. There has to be a balance between taking into account electability and the desire not to “compromise” core conservative principles.
What Mike is trying to get across is that those who advocate a party purge and threaten to go third party is a strategy for defeat and permanent minority status. Every election is important.
The country is rather (more or less) evenly divided between liberals and conservatives. So having the temerity to think that “if only a TRUE conservative were elected to represent us” will the American people rally around and vote him into office….well, that’s just not the case. Because that candidate, unless he has something else going for him, stands to alienate half the votes AND the ever-so-important moderates and independents in the middle. It’s THEIR votes that need convincing and winning over.
Republicans who fared better than McCain in ’08 in states with close elections were those candidates perceived, like McCain, as “independent” or “moderate” (like Lindsey Graham, Gordon Smith, and ….er….Susan Collins- doh!). I know they stick in our craw, but the alternatives would be….?
In those places where McCain was on the ballot with a local conservative candidate, I don’t recall a single state where a Republican further to the right than McCain ran better than him.
Reagan is now embraced as the gold standard and the measure by those who tout themselves as Reagan “foot soldiers”. But I think some of them are the same ones who, 30 years ago, criticized Reagan as not being “Reagan enough” (i.e., true conservative) for them. They can only jump on the bandwagon because they ride on the coattails of his post-Reagan Era popularity, embraced and acknowledged today by even many of those in the Democratic tent.
Now did Reagan play “nice” as you accuse Mike of playing; or did he play smart? I’d say Reagan played nice and he played hard….and above all else, he played it smart.
From an earlier post:
Medved:
Please note Doug Hoffman’s race is one of those rare exceptions to the rule of voting for the conservative candidate over the party candidate. Medved and Hewitt both advocated for his election.
Talk about insider trading. This makes Madoff scam look like kids play. They should all be in Jail. Revolt NOW take our country back
@Patvann:
Mike’s one of the last guys to say anything positive about McCain. Not one FA author supported McCain during primaries. But what Mike understands is not throwing away elections. That you support the one of TWO parties that best represents the issues you care about the most; and that if you wish it to move further to the right and be more like you, the best way to go about it is to effect change from within the party. Not destroy it. Not shrink it.
And in regards to McCain when it comes to fiscal responsibility, how has he not been a conservative?
How are they acting, right now, Patvann? Conservative or no? I’d say they are hearing the voices of conservatives such as yourself.
Our problem is that we here at FA are further to the right than most of the country. What we have to do is attract those voters in the middle and those who are independents.
So what Republican candidate in ’08 would have won that year against an uber-candidate on the opposition team, riding in on a “glass-ceiling breaking” tide of hope and change against 8 years of Bush fatigue, from both left and right?
Espousing conservative principles would not have been enough to win that year.
You actually didn’t vote in ’08?!
Most conservatives, did by the way. They didn’t stay at home but pulled the plug AGAINST Obama and FOR Palin. But those who didn’t come support McCain basically acquiesced the country to Obama. Costly lesson to try and teach the Republican party, don’t you think?
And if you had to do it all over again now that we’ve had a year to see “hope” and “change” in action?
McCain lost not because he didn’t win over the conservative voters, but because he lost the moderates and independents (yes, including some conservatives entranced by the message of “hope” and “change”).
I understand not supporting him in the primaries. But in the general? Not supporting him wasn’t bad for the Republican Party…it was bad for America.
Whom did Mike’s America support in New York-23, hmm?
@Wordsmith said: “Basically, Keith, you and Mike are on the same team.”
I’m beginning to wonder. It seems these so-called conservatives only seem to want to fight conservatives who have actually WON elections and not Obama. Is that a coincidence?
I really do wonder.
I’ve been aware for quite some time how the Dems manipulate these little spats in an effort to get some on our side to stay home. And as Wordsmith noted, they have stayed home. That attitude is the one which is directly responsible for our loss of Congress in 2006 and the White House in 2008. The entire nation has suffered enormous harm as a result. Would true patriots behave this way?
As much as I would like to have as many votes on board in 2010 it looks like we won’t need to bother too much trying to convince this handful of malcontents to break their longstanding habit of sitting on the sidelines. The Independents who are flocking to our cause in droves due in large part to our GOP leadership in Congress will more than make up for the absence of these purgers.
They can complain all they want and no one will care.
What a shame! But they have no one to blame but themselves!
P.S. Wordsmith: You are so very right about Reagan. I saw firsthand how he worked to build the party based on conservative governing principles. And yet, there was this small band of malcontents who accused him of straying from the true path as THEY defined it. It’s the same attitude we are dealing with now. If Reagan were here he would tell them to get involved and make a difference. But they didn’t listen to him then and they won’t listen now. Reagan’s 11th Commandment was: “Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican.” These malcontents would call that heresy. Well, I guess I’ll listen to them if they start winning elections for anything greater than dog catcher. Until then, they are irrelevant. My poll shows that clearly.
P.P.S. Apparently I need to remind Patvann as well as our Purger friends that I took my conservative criticism of John McCain directly to the man IN PERSON and at length:
http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2007/11/john-mccain-visits-mikes-america.html
Just the same as I did with a number of the other GOP presidential hopefuls in 2008. I don’t just sit around and complain about the GOP. I DO SOMETHING about it!
@ Mike
I am sorry I said that you would support Obama if he had an R after his name. That’s a low-blow, and I don’t believe it for a second. But knock it off with claiming your poll vindicates what it does not. Please.
It’s also off-putting to see a man blindly support even the worse of Republicans simply because of that specific letter..There’s got to be at least ONE Republican you want to see gone!
Like Word said, we here at FA are all more to the Right than most. I also like to think we kinda have a ‘brotherhood” (and sister!) of sorts here. But like many brothers, we are sometimes given to sparing with each other, but inevitably come back together when it matters.
And when it matters, I can assure you, I’ll be right next to you.
@Word.
I read both your responses carefully.
I grew up loving McCain like a favorite uncle. He was my hero. I came of age under Carter, and all my friends thought I was nuts for going into the Navy during his admin. When they heard I was going into Buds, they freaked. I put principle above all, regardless, and I am a better human because of it. But I saw him in action the past 8 years, and I got more and more despondent about him every year.
I’m having a hard time continuing this, because of one man’s name mentioned in your rebuttal.
Arlen Specter…Howd that work out for us, huh? Toomey would still be there for us had the Party supported him, but they didn’t did they? He almost won with no support from the leadership at all, but by THE PEOPLE!
*ok…calm now*
I’m in California…Do you really think ANY republican vote mattered in this state in 08, other than the local issues? The state party leaders never even tried to win for McCain, why should I have? I don’t think I heard one ad for him during the whole damn election season.
Frankly, this country needed Obama. (You can pick your jaw off the floor now.)
They needed to see what happens when the left gets it way. They needed to see Progressivism in it’s cold, dark reality. And now they do.
Now they get to watch the media lie, and then die. They needed to look inside and see what matters. They needed to teach themselves what the Constitution is all about, They needed to see what their schools have done to their children..And now they do.
They would not of, had McCain won, and yes I underestimated the cost of Obama.
When my youngest was 2, he HATED wearing a jacket and would fight his mom every time. When I was alone with him, I let him get his way when I knew damn well it was 40deg and windy. After a half an hour in the cold, he never fought his mom about a jacket again. (Yes, I brought the coat along, but he didn’t know it till I showed it to him.) The Indies and some Republicans are like my then 2 year-old.
The Party is hearing us now. Because we scared them. I am now supporting it from the inside, precisely for the reasons you and Mike say. Funny how attentive they suddenly are! Last election, they took my money, but ignored me at the meetings. Now they listen intently, and are scared to ask me for money. I (along with some BIGtime potential donors) have a meeting with Ron Nehring the first week of the year, but I view Tom Del Beccaro (the vice-chair) as more attune with us. Ron (the chair of the state party) is still stuck into who’s “turn” is it instead of “who can win” (followed in priority by “who should win”).
I fully understand the need to win first, then govern. But the leadership didn’t seem to agree with me, you Mike, or John or Kieth. It’s was always “But XXXX has been loyally waiting”. I have a feeling Ron has listened to Tom this time around because of the TeaParties that NEVER would have happened under McCain happened, and the leadership is finally listening to the folks who put them there.
Indies lean Conservative, but quite frankly, they are ignorant. They voted for Obama because he was packaged well. Like the new Madonna Album, or Nike shoes. I actually heard many times from them that Obama was more Conservative than McCain. “He was more honest”. “He’ll fix the budget”…and on and on. Of course I knew the truth, but nothing I could say could change their minds. Now they know. Now they are informed. Now they understand marketing. Now they know the difference between Conservative and Liberal. They fill my inbox with questions and statements, like they never have before.
But you’re are 100% right that a Dem would have won, even if it was Satan himself. Which proves my point about America (those Indies) needing a wakeup call even more than the Republicans did.
But would he have won had the Republicans behaved like Republicans SHOULD have behaved all those years they were in power? Hard to say, but the race was closer than the Left likes to admit, and I think they could have.
But I don’t give a damn about the Party if the Party thinks SPECTER is worth saving. At the same time, I know going third party is foolish. I messed up, stayed home, when I should have been out there convincing more people, and maybe putting some money where my mouth was, and loudly bashing (well…actually quietly and eagerly) the leadership like I do now.
I agree with Reagan “70%” quip, but the twits like Snowe aren’t even 20%, and I believe THAT kind of RINO is who John, Kieth, and I envision as needing to be “purged”, and don’t think we three are demanding 90% or even 80 or 75.
Unlike some people, I can freely admit when I screwed up, or make a wrong decision, and will never again stay on the sidelines. I underestimated how freakin stoopid and out of touch the CA Republican leadership is, and it is refreshing to see them ask for help with messaging. They find it hard to believe how far honesty and integrity go in a straw-poll. Although I don’t like Meg, they think she’ll win because she’s more photogenic than Steve, and she’ll be our first woman Gov. Maybe they’re right, but it sticks in my craw how easily Meg is willing to change her professed views to “look” more conservative all of a sudden….Arnold was once claimed to be a conservative too…
Maybe I’ll get the opportunity to have some one-on-one time to see if she’s worthy of my dollars…If they let me that close to her.
AND YES I WILL VOTE FOR HER IF SHE’S OUR CANDIDATE, but I will support Steve in the primaries. But if they put up someone in the Specter or Snowe mold, I will not vote for them. I will write in my own name….Or Skook’s…Or Curt’s.
*damn I’m getting longwindy here…*
Now. How do we get rid of open-primaries where the Dems vote in who we get to vote for?
The issue is whether you vote for the good of the country or for the shibboleth of ideological purity. The damage to this country resulting from McCain’s loss is immeasurable. Whether the Republicans will be able to reverse all of this damage is certainly not clear even if they were to gain control of Congress and the White House. The election of Obama is the result of many factors and certainly Bush fatigue was one of them. But the uncanny ability of the Republican party to shoot itself in the foot is surely another. Nominating a 72 year old to compete with a young, energetic, and bi-racial candidate was a sure recipe for defeat. I was hopeful until I happened upon an Obama rally in Corrales, New Mexico. In that small town people were streaming in from all directions to the rallly site, and there was virtually nowhere to park. The enthusiasm was palpable and he delivered the same old speech to tumultuous applause. I then knew it was all over and I can tell you, I felt a sense of fear, for I truly understood what was happening and what was likely to happen.
It could not be clearer that unless we retake Congress in 2010 and I mean retake it big time, Obama could well win a second term. The resulting paralysis would only perpetuate the mess that he has created and I fear that the Republicans in Congress would get the blame. We need to win and to win big both in 2010 and 2012, and any Republican who sits either election out because of an absence of ideological purity on the part of the party or on the part of the candidates will share responsibility for the losses and for the resulting damage to the country. There is simply too much at stake.
I remember the Reagen years very well. I did not vote for him the first time and did the second as his Presidency was responsible for turning around my perspective. However, he clearly directed his appeal not only at the solid conservative base, but also at those whose values were shifting from their Democratic upbringings to a more, but perhaps not pure conservative perspective. We cannot win these elections without the young voters, the college and university students, and the Hispanics. We are not going to get those votes if we insist on absolute conservative purity simply because the majority of those voters have not had enough life experiences to appreciate and to truly understand the wisdom of pure conservative values. If we are going to build a coalition that will endure and will ultimately freeze out the far left, we must treat the electoral process as an educational process and to my mind, that means educating these voters as to what we believe in, how we stand on the issues, and most importantly, how we will implement those values when we hold office. You don’t get an education in one full swoop. It is a gradual process and it is an exercise in self delusion to believe that these key voting elements will adopt ideologically pure conservatism without seeing us in action. They will never see us in action if we don’t win elections. We can’t win elections without bringing along the majority of independents and we can’t attract them in sufficient numbers if our banner can only be followed by the perfect and the pure.
California is a perfect example. This was a Republican state. When the Democrats started their ascendancy, the California Republican party zoomed to the far right, ideologically pure, but electorally impotent. California’s mess is the result. Was it good for California to sacrifice the state on the alter of ideological purity? Tell that to the bankruptcy court as that is where this state is heading. Same with Michigan (I am a Michigan grad), New Jersey, where I was raised, and New York where I went to grad school. (No I am not responsible for all four of these disasters.) Let us not let the perfect get in the way of the good. We need to regain control and then educate the American people that our stewardship of the government will restore the republic. It is not going to work the other way around.
Disturber
@Patvann: I ignored your low blow as I assumed you were under the influence of the purgers when you wrote that.
Sorry if you don’t like my little survey but it’s the best indicator I have as to what the readers here think. It just so happens to correspond in a fashion to the polls which show people coming over to our way of thinking. The two are not dissimilar.
I’d suggest you read @Disturber‘s comment and consider it carefully if you find my experience and expertise unconvincing.
@Patvann:
How’d it work out for him being driven out of the Republican Party prior to the healthcare bill vote?
Specter disgusts me, make no mistake about that. But we tend to remember the RINOs for the things they do wrong than for the things they’ve gotten right. And yes, Specter got a lot of things wrong.
I would have favored Toomey. And Hugh Hewitt’s book was written in 2004, so it’s a bit dated. Didn’t follow his reaction in regards to Specter’s defection.
That said, in general, I agree with Hewitt and Medved in how they take electability AND principle into account. The two need to be weighed together to win elections. Loyalty to ideological purity doesn’t cut it when you’re dealing with a country where you need to sway the votes of those who don’t agree with you on everything.
Actually, my jaw’s just fine because I understand where you’re coming from, perfectly.
No. Ideological purists who sat on their hands needed to see that happen. Who did they hurt? Not the Republican Party. They hurt the country.
Again: Primaries are for teaching lessons. General is for winning them.
Who else needed convincing? The moderates and independents who voted in Obama. Who bought into the snake oil and belief that he would govern from center-left and not radical left.
All of us here didn’t need to see an Obama presidency happen, to understand how destructive it would be for the country. We knew that before it came to pass. Which is why I had no problem with voting McCain/Palin. Doesn’t matter if I held my nose or not to do so.
As they say, elections have consequences. How do you roll back what is going on now? Not by losing future elections to teach lessons.
Excellent points, Patvann.
@Disturber.
Good points, but as a man who’s been here since my dad moved us out from Wisconsin in 1964, and who has been voting since I could in 1980, I’m wondering when exactly we went “zooming” to the Right? Jerry Brown, our own “Governor moonbeam” from 75-83? Republicans Deukmejian and Wilson were NOT hardcore Righties, and both had powerful Dems to contend with in the Senate. Grey Davis was a Dem, with a Dem senate as well. Now we have Aaaaanold.
In fact Reagan, who was our Gov between 67 and 75 was the only Conservative we’ve had here in my almost 50 years on this planet. Our Congress holds more power than our Gov, and it has been in Dems in power most of the time I’ve been here.
I particularly liked this comment:
Let us not let the perfect get in the way of the good. We need to regain control and then educate the American people that our stewardship of the government will restore the republic. It is not going to work the other way around.
Conversely, let’s quit settling for bad over both the good and the perfect.
A lot of things were against us in ’08 to make an Obama presidency a reality. But the election wasn’t a complete landslide wipeout. The timing of the financial crisis with 8 years of Bushonomics an easy, simplistic scapegoat to fingerpoint out really helped sink the McCain/Palin candidacy in combination with running a lousy campaign and being linked as more of the (Mc)same as Bush. Add to this, a fawning media, Hollywood, and a national obsession with seeing glass ceiling breakage and a yearn to be perceived as a non-racist nation….
Seriously, in ’08 a lot was stacked against us with no counter-cult personality with similar charisma to capture the imagination of Americans looking for leadership and a belief that life for the past 8 years the sky has been falling and the apocalypse is at hand.
Agree.
In regards to what you said about marketing, and stupid voters and independents, moderates, and those who simply don’t follow politics on a day to day basis like you or I, something else from Hewitt’s book that I think is worth considering:
@Patvann:
The problem I see, is that there is a conservative chunk of movement activists who won’t even accept an 80%er, which I think someone like McCain’s ACU ranking hovers around, when averaged out over the course of his Senate career.
He’s just developed a legendary stature of Republican apostasy that’s become larger than life and greater than the facts; and no conservative feels they can trust his “maverickness”.
As Hugh Hewitt likes to characterize him, John McCain: A great American, a lousy Senator, and a terrible Republican.
Patvann, I agree with you that (here in California) we have had Republican governors and that they have been less than far right, but as you also note, the power in this state is in the legislature that operates virtually in secret in Sacramento. There is no effective news coverage of their antics and the Dems have this way of concentrating legislative power in the Speaker of the Assembly – think Willie Brown and Don Perata, two crooks if ever there was such a thing. This is where the Repubs have failed, for they either nominate far right candidates that are not competitive, or fail to support candidates that could win. The recent special election over Tausher’s seat is a good example. Garimandi could have been beaten if a serious campaign had been waged, but the Rep candidate was on his own and simply couldn’t match the fire power that the Dems brought to the table.
We have to gain control over the legislature. Life in this state is being destroyed by excessive taxation, over-regulation and profound government intrusion at every level. In the meanwhile, the huge compensation schemes for government workers are sucking resources away from essential competing uses. I live in Moraga. The fire chief for the Orinda-Moraga fire district retired with a pension of over $250k in his early fifties and then took a job as a chief in another district for another $175k. I don’t care what skills are required in a district with about 35,000 residents. It ain’t worth that level of compensation.
I have no idea how California is going to recover and if it can recover. I understand that the current deficit is $20 billion and counting. The health reform bill will add billions to the cost of MediCal. The roads are falling apart – think I-880 and the good school districts are now relying on parent donations to maintain what they can of educational standards. With the sales tax at nearly 10%, billions of dollars of purchases are going on line to avoid the taxation and it is far too intrusive and very difficult to collect the corresponding use taxes.
As for Michigan, my two kids were undergrads at the U. of Michigan (following in Dad’s footsteps). They had part-time jobs and made a cumulative total of $1,800 in 2007. I filed the appropriate tax returns in Michigan and in California. Last week I received demands from the Michigan Tax Collector for full audits on both kids. Even if they took the entire income that they earned, it could not cover the cost to the government of this foolishness. The tax returns were correct, by the way. This is the efficiency of government in action.
I intend to fight hard to defeat the Dems both in Washington and in California. It is essential that we have these discussions and that we speak out at every opportunity. There is hope, but the road is long.
I couldn’t upload this to YouTube because of the 10 minute rule, but I uploaded this on FA’s server for download:
One may quibble or full-out disagree with some of Medved’s points (some arguments I anticipate critics making and not brought up in this radio hour, he’s addressed previously). But his perspective is worth listening to.
@Word
Damn good points. It all comes down to message delivery, then standing by that meassage.
@Mike
What I’m “under the influence of”, was 8 years of watching a majority of Republicans acting like they were invincible, and them forgetting what “Republicanism” is all about right up until they were out of power, and lost the presidency. I feel betrayed, and that tends to piss me off for a long time.
You should do another poll. This time ask two questions: (my answers)
1. “On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate Republicans between 2004 and 2008?” (4)
2. “On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate Republicans now?” (7)
Your other poll only asked about recent Republican actions concerning the health bill.
@Disturber
You do some great posting.
I’m here in the corner where Los Gatos meets San Jose and Campbell, and drove up 280 to 101 into Petaluma, then back down 101 and 880. Yes, 180 miles/day for 4-1/2 years …These roads suck, and we pay close to 90cents a gallon in taxes to pay for them.
Now I stay home in “Galt-like” fashion.
Misery loves company, so it’s good to have you near!
@Patvann: I’ll do another poll one of these days. But right now, I am content to know that 75% of our readers AGREE WITH ME!
So there!
That was a great discussion fellas. Mike and I have had this discussion before. I don’t think any of us believe the Republicans were doing that great between 2004 and 2007. Thing is, and I’m sad to say it, I don’t remember complaining to them about it. I speak for myself. I write both Senators quite a bit. My congressman is a waste of space, so I don’t even bother. I have sat on the sidelines quite a bit, but thanks to Mike I have become involved with my local GOP.
On another note, someone here suggested that the Senate Republicans propose a bill that states Congress, now serving and retired, be required to live with the laws they enact.
They aren’t going to propose that one their own. Maybe we can get the Tea Party folks to start a petition, or we could start it here and start passing it around the blogs and get the Tea Party interested. If we get enough support to get it in front of Congress, who knows?
@Aqua: Thanks! I’m glad you are getting involved with your local GOP. That’s the way to change things. Just look at the progress our girl Skye has made with her group in Pennsylvania. And of course she’s not going to get mad and go home if she doesn’t get her way 100% of the time and I doubt you will either… Some of these Purgers I’m not so sure about.
As for requiring Congress to live by the same laws they enact for the rest of us that was one of the Amendments the GOP put forward with health care and was shot down. It was also part of the Contract with America that was enacted and Dems overturned it.
My, my, my funny to think how even those little RINOS went along with all that back in 1995. I guess they weren’t so awful after all.
IMHO, we need TRUE conservatives…. Olympia Snowe is a perfect Example of a RINO…. she is too far left TOO OFTEN…. That said, there is no such thing as a “Perfect” Candidate…. one you agree on all points with. Abortion is a shining example…. I’ve heard a lot of folks claiming “if he isn’t against this i’ll not vote for XXX”.. that is STUPIDITY on Steroids!!! Mr. XXX might be dead on 90% of the rest, but to hand the seat to the opposition because your own “pet peeve” wasn’t butt kissed is insane… you’d wreck the state/nation over a single issue? This is too often a problem with the RIGHT…. libs don’t care long as the possibility of some of some bonus down the road exists…. they know THEIR party LIVES to dole it out!
And worst of all, the “single issue type” is more often then not a Hypocrite!!! If you are a true Conservative, to truly believe in “Freedom”,, MANY things YOU don’t like you’ll have to tolerate… because as long as these things are both “legal” AND Constitutional…. they stand as a right.
Just because YOU don’t like it doesn’t mean you can ban it or deny it… THAT is what the LEFT is always doing to US!!! They don’t like Guns…. They don’t like you making too much money .. etc etc, and they try to force THEIR will, NOT the Constitution, on us….. So I wish a bunch of people who CLAIM to be on the right, would ACT like it!!! Leave stamping your feet and pouting if you don’t ” get YOUR way” to the Childish left… that’s THEIR bag!!
I’m not angry nor flustered with Mike. I’m simply stating my piece. Again, Mike needs to read closely. I said that if he wanted unconstitutional programs and pet projects funded with his tax dollars then he is probably in the wrong party.
I stand by that.
Is that what you want, Mike? Unconstitutional government takeover of every aspect of our daily lives? Let’s assume the answer is no, for arguments sake. Then what is your cure for the Republicans who vote for that stuff? We call their office, we write letters, we email and they just go on and do it anyway. What is your answer to that type of non representation? At some point you have to be willing to kick them out regardless of the immediate consequences or you simply have no principles; and moreso, eventually you have no real choice. You are simply voting for socialist or socialist light. I will not do that. I respect the forefathers too much for that. I’m not arrogant enough to think they didn’t really know what they were talking about when they wrote the U.S. Constitution. I assume that they were much brighter and well read than I ever hope to be. Perhaps Mike believes differently, which is still his right, thus far.
Have a great day!
@Keith Rodebush: I really wonder where you have been during the past 40 years when I have been working to achieve the conservative governing majority. I don’t see any answer you have provided here that documents your efforts.
Frankly, I really do wonder whose side you are on.
No doubt Obama thanks you!
@Mike
Ya mean while you trained under the worse foreign policy adviser this country has even had? A man who trained Carter, and single-handedly started our present problems with Afghanistan, Iran and Islam, beget the Trilateral Commission with Rockefeller, helped give away the Panama Canal, and was against both wars with Iraq? A man against confrontation with Cuba during the missile crises, supported Johnsons Great Society, supported Hubert Humpfrey, and planned the Iranian-hostage rescue debacle that killed 6 of my fellow SeAL’s? A dickhead that voted for Obama, and hates Israel?
Personally, as a conservative and a warrior, I would have beat him to death the first day of class, but then, maybe we’re not as Republican as you.
Let’s NOT average his voting record and see how he ranks. Say like year to year in the past 8 years? Considering he’s made a habit of screwing the GOP on important votes, he deserves his current reputation.
Yes he’s been voting against the health reform BS, but that’s self preservation, and little more.
um, Guys…I’m no Lawyer, but I CAN read, and I just did a quick search on the RICO act….. isn’t the BRIBERY that has happened in the above story (with Nelson, Landrieu, Dodd, and who in Massachusetts??) enough to qualify???? It fits the description…. so can it be charged?? Question is, is there anyone in the Federal lineup with the Cajones to BRING IT?!?!?!
Just curious….
@Hardright
Here is a breakdown of his scoring over the years. Ben Nelson has about the same numbers.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/mccains_acu_ratings.html
Thanks Patvann, that was exactly the point I was Making.
Yeah, yeah…that Hoven post was linked in one of my post-primary posts, when McCain Derangement Syndrome was shooting us in the foot.
McCain is a conservative. Maybe not the kind you like nor the kind you trust. But a conservative nonetheless. As I included in my comment that Hard Right extrapolated from: McCain: A great American, a lousy Senator, and a terrible Republican.
@Hard Right:
HR, you’re at the point where no matter what McCain did that you’d agree with, you’d never give him due credit for honest motives. Go ahead and keep tearing into him, even when he does what we want him to do. Good grief!
Ok….I’m done defending McCain in this post, btw. Leaves a bad after-taste….
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@Wordsmith: I have to say I have been a lot less disappointed in John McCain than usual.
I take full credit:
http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2007/11/john-mccain-visits-mikes-america.html
I’d rather him voting replace Harry Reid as Majority Leader than doing the opposite.
And I certainly can’t imagine not voting for him knowing that the other name on the ballot alongside his was SARAH PALIN!
If her selection wasn’t a sure sign of where McCain’s heart is I don’t know what could be.
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