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Sure! I can do dat. I’ll send it to you to massage when I’m done.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Well Well, a nest of right wing nuts. Preaching, pontificating, insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies. Wow! What a big surprise. Just like real life, a lot of hot air from the right.
Where was all the righteous indignation when the last administration lied about WMD to invade the wrong country? Where was your indignation when we had Bin Laden in our sights and Rumsfeld dropped the ball? Where was your outcry when every single terrorist in Gitmo has not been executed? Never mind Obama will take care of it for you.
You are preaching to each other and not helping the overall divisions in the US.
The vast majority of Americans want more controls on pollution whether it counteracts alleged climate change or not. Some of us actually want to leave a habitable planet to our children and grandchildren. I am sincerely sorry you don’t feel the same way.
Yep, it’s another leftwing nutjob delivering a common nut root rant.
jstol3
14 years ago
Hey Pragmatic:
The thread isn’t about Bush
The thread isn’t about WMD
The thread isn’t about Osama
The thread isn’t about Rumsfeld
The thread IS about
jstol3
14 years ago
Pragmatic:
The thread is about a bunch of lying Left Wing nutjobs who profess to be doing one thing under the guise of grabbing power and money.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
The thread is not about a woman being arrested in a park either.
Typical right wing nut cases. Carry On
Bobby
14 years ago
Pragmatic:
To continue with the thread, it is important to recognize the signs of a hoax; this
is true particularly when politicians begin discussing science.
When politicians, or scientists with an agenda, begin citing a “consensus of scientists”,
your BS detector should kick in. Science has nothing to do with consensus. Consensus
is the business of politics. The greatest scientists in history are great because they broke
with consensus; e.g. the earth is not flat, the universe doesn’t revolve around the earth,
and so on. Real scientists do not skew data or suppress challenges.
“So, there!” Little hands on hips, sticks out tongue. Now come the attempts at the…..last word.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Bobby.
I agree with you completely and currently there is a body of evidence that suggest that climate change has been overstated from the beginning. I still have doubts about it not actually taking place from varied reports on ice cap degradation and the loss of glaciers sheets world wide.
I understand that this may be cyclical in the scheme of nature but it has been measured to be occurring at an very accelerated rate. This is information provided by scientific researchers and not spun by politicians.
My question would be: What if it is the human race changing the climate. By the time any type of controls are put into place it may be too late if you are incorrect.
As for my original posting, I was just pointing out how the thread is set up to encourage political dialog, albeit skewed to the right. The subsequent responses just confirmed my initial impression, yours in particular notwithstanding.
@Pragmatic finally on topic says: “I agree that climate change has been overstated since the start but have questions as to whether the cycle we are currently in is man made or natural. If the natural has it been accelerated by man. all I have read indicates it has been accelerated. “
I’m glad you got that Bush Bile out of your system. There is research to suggest that Bush Bile actually causes global warming and I wouldn’t want you fined by the United Nations.
Obviously you have realized that the “questions” surrounding the issue here is NOT SETTLED. So certainly you might also agree that we should rush into spending $TRILLIONS on a problem that might not exist.
I’m sure you support programs to combat hunger, disease and illiteracy worldwide as I do. What a shame that instead of addressing these REAL problems we would waste so much time addressing a non existent problem.
P.S. Talking about “Obama bashing” while you openly engage in Bush bashing doesn’t lend much credibility to ANYTHING you might have to say.
Bobby
14 years ago
Pragmatic:
I got a chuckle out of Missy’s comment. It was very graphic.
I think that it is some of both: manmade and natural.
The melting ice is certainly bothersome. I just have a
hard time with doomsday predictions.
The largest issue that I have with the releases from
the Climate Research Center, if they turn out to be true,
is that it casts an extremely dark shadow on science itself.
We are in accord that the hard right and the hard left don’t
leave any room for debate on the issues (of any sort!).
Pragmatic
14 years ago
I thought I lost a post and re wrote my thoughts and posted them. Huh. Now my original shows up…Sorry about double posting the same info.
Let me ‘splain, Prag…. I saw a post in the spam filter, saw it was you, then set it free. Then when looking to catch up thru comments, I see you rewrote it. So I deleted one… I guess your second endeavor?… so you didn’t have a dual post.
’tis I in the background, bailing you out, then fixing the dual post. No problem on the double posting. You did the right thing as one of us may not be logged into set the spam filter trapped free…. LOL
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike,
Perhaps if you read my entire (edited) post you’ll see in my mind I was fully justified in my political rant. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities (although I doubt your reply was about offending your sensibilities but just offending me). That being said, I have to point out I can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte.
@Pragmatic said: “can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte. “
AGAIN WITH THE BILE!
Do you really think that’s the way to foster a useful dialogue on one of the most important public policy issues of our lifetime?
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike,
Since you have decided that my thoughts are not worth your time and posted as much and feel that I can’t contribute in any way to your narrow point of view, why on earth would you respond my posting at all? It seems as if you have an agenda other than discussing climate change. Could it be your right wing training is showing? Honestly I didn’t see any complaints further up the board from you regarding Left wing bashing. There was more than a little Obama and liberal bashing being posted.
Short of an explanation and your reticence to post anything negative about the right I have to assume you are just another right winger who is feeling the pinch of no real power at this point.
Best of luck 2010
jstol3
14 years ago
Pragmatic –
Is it your Left Wing bias that prevents you from seeing that we would not be discussing climate change at all if it were not for:
1. The manufacture of the issue by the Left as a vehicle with which to seize both power, money and elections.
2. Scientists who were all too willing to sell their integrity in order to help the Left with their agenda.
There was never any doubt in my mind that the whole issue was bogus. Climate has gone through radical changes for 4.5 billion years on this planet and will continue to do so with no help from man. What part of 4.5 billion years of change do you NOT understand? Everything from ice sheets covering the northern half of the country with glaciers a couple of miles thick to those same areas being tropical. There is a lot of climate change between the two extremes and man wasn’t even around then.
Science and history are not political in nature and should not be used to further political agendas.
Donald Bly
14 years ago
Well Well, a nest of right wing nuts. Preaching, pontificating, insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies. Wow! What a big surprise. Just like real life, a lot of hot air from the right.
The above is Pragmatic’s opening salvo….
I’ve gone back and read all the posts and the “insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies” pretty much begins with Pragmatic.
Pragmatic goes on to state
“If the natural has it been accelerated by man. all I have read indicates it has been accelerated.”
The whole issue behind “climategate” is that what you have read has most likely been manipulated for some reason other than “saving the world from CO2”. With the left so vocal about wealth redistribution… could it be real reason the left seems so willing to swallow this crock of crap.
I for one am grateful that I do not have to own an SUV gas guzzler so that I can navigate a glacier to get to a 7/11
PS.. Pragmatic, attempting to marginalize people as you did in your opening remarks only reinforces the idea that you aren’t debating with a winning arguement.
Andy
14 years ago
Harry Read Me!
OH Noes!
This isn’t the Harry Reid, we all know, is it?
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Donald Bly.
Did it escape your attention that there are no centrist or left wing posts here? Has it occurred to you there is a reason for that? I mean besides the normal insulting reasons Limbaugh and Beck has you spout? Perhaps they are not up to being shouted down by the right wing nuts acting like tea baggers and town hall meeting rable rousers.
The glaring problem with most of you posting here, isolation. Not listening to the other side at all costs. I can visualize you like a 6 year old plugging his ears and making loud nonsense noise so that you don’t have to hear a word spoken.
I stand by my initial post. This is a nest of right wingers pontificating and doing it for the benefit of each other. No other reason whatsoever.
I will continue to seek out knowledge regarding climate change, real or otherwise. I’m certain in 4 billion years your hot air won’t make a speck of difference in any case.
Since I have been accused of having sent an opening salvo, here’s a parting one for the evening: Even if you wanted to stop The President from signing any agreement, you cannot stop it. Even if he needs Congressional approval, you cannot stop it. You have no real power at this point as the right wing lost many major elections, including the Presidency of the United States.
“Pragmatic stands with right hand in air with middle finger raised!”
I find it entertaining to read that first one of his (and likewise with similar commenter’s) and then read the last one where they quit in a snit.
Frankly, I’ve been waiting around for him to ask a global-warming CO2 question, because in all likelihood, I could have given him a good, sound answer!
Out of every posted comment, he asked exactly one climate-related question:
What if it is the human race changing the climate. By the time any type of controls are put into place it may be too late if you are incorrect.
Answer:
We are not changing the climate, as shown by the data that the CRU covered up. If you would like specifics, please ask specific questions, thank you.
What you see is a person whose Prophet has been destroyed, and is now faced with self-doubt and emptiness. He reacts by lashing out because it is the only “tool” left in the toolbox.
MindJedi
14 years ago
Prag, I have to compliment you with regard to your honesty about Evidence lacking in regard to global warming. That it does seem to contridict your origional statements about this “nest” of narcisistic conservatives, is of a curious note to me. I have lived independantly in what has become the heart of the European Union for a substantial amount of time (2 years) I was born and raised in the great state of ALASKA. I am referenceing two drastically different cultures, one representing what you would call (correct me if I am wrong) “innovative and progressively minded” and the other, I will refer to as what the liberal movement in our country is now calling “Palin Country.” Growing up in Alaska had a profound effect on my world view. The most influencial component being the TENS OF THOUSANDS of JAPANESE, AND EUROPEAN individuals and families that would spend hours and hours reminding my family of how blessed we were to have been born in America, especially in Alaska. The stories and analysis offered by many influencial people from those nations has continued to help shape my perspective on what has and is happening in our great nation. I cannot tell you how many people from the greatest nations in the world other than ours have emotionally demonstrated their desire to have what we have. Living in Europe only proved to confirm the testimonies of so many people. WE CONTINUE TO TAKE OUR FREEDOMS FOR GRANTED, INSTEAD WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT OUR LIFESTYLE SHOULD AND WILL BE BETTER, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS..
And that is a simple truth.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Relax
You know, a guy could fit right in here as long as he’s willing to ignore the facts that don’t fit into the conservative agenda….and it looks like there are quite a few doing just that. Just a thought.
Okay, here is a question regarding the topic:
If, as I have been told by you, humans are not causing climate change and besides the all encompassing answer you are passing off as “truth” that it is just a normal climate cycle, why are the caps and the glaciers melting as fast as they are currently? Why is the tundra softening, why are rivers that froze every winter since human memory now only freezing to a fraction of the depth they once did?
Please don;t use the universal answer of “natural, normal cycle”. I think we all know there is more to it than that.
MindJedi
14 years ago
I think it’s funny that posters with a more liberal political bend, use phrases like “shouting down” and ranting on about “not listening at all costs”. I must beg to differ, go and live in any other counry and have real conversations with anyone who has a grasp of these issues, and you will find that wishful thinking does not translate into reality very often. It is the exception not the rule. That is another reason I love america, our country gives you the freedom to PURSUE your DREAMS, it does not garantee the fruition of them. That is up to YOU and your hard work. Which is why I am a conservative, because I believe you have the right to be an idiot without anyone regulating your waste oxygen.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mind Jedi,
I read your post and have to make a couple of comments. 1st is that I am an American. I love this country and all it represents. We have the best of the best and the worst of the worst and all things in between. I agree that given the choice, even our most hated enemies would move here. I lived in Central BC for some time next to the great state of Alaska so I know the beauty that that area of the globe represents.
My anger comes from the statements I hear by the rights “entertainers”. They say things like “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”. I’d like to know, take it back from who? I’d like to know just who fails when our President fails. Is the right so distraught over losing control of the country to actually wish for these things for our country?
In their crystal balls they predict Obama will be the worst President in history, after 11 months in office! Instead of positive concerted effort to raise this country out of an economic catastrophe, they instead look to place blame. They have been asked repeatedly to help mend this country and instead wish for it’s leader(s) to fail.
I started fighting back with rhetoric to do 2 things. One is to point out their own failures as they take such great pleasure pointing out the lefts shortcomings while ignoring their own. The next is to try to get to the bottom of WHY? If you put aside the ideology, we are all Americans.
I just hope as the years go by this country finds something to make it whole again.
jstol3
14 years ago
Gee, Pragmatic, I thought you left with your index finger raised. Unfortunately for you I am not willing to concede that there is more than “natural and normal” ocurring here.
During the glacial periods where did the water go? It became ice and covered the land.
When the glaciers melted where did the water go? It went back to the sea and the sea levels rose and covered some of the land.
When the ground which was previously covered by glaciers began to thaw what happened? The ground became squishy.
All of this happened without any benefit from man. Why do you believe that it is otherwise now?
When you inhale your body uses oxygen. When you exhale you emit CO2. Plants use CO2 and emit oxygen for us to use. We need each other and we exist on those gases. What is so hard to understand about that being a natural cycle?
What I just wrote is science. It is not Right or Left. It is fact and you and I both know it.
So, tell us, what is the problem with that?
Donald Bly
14 years ago
@ Pragmatic
Like the climate, political power is also in a constant state of change. And while we’re on the subject of political power, here’s a civics lesson. For a treaty to be ratified, it requires a 2/3 vote of the Senate. Pay attention in school and you won’t come off like you’re talking outta your…
I’ve seen Presidents come and Presidents go, that’s one of the benefits of being older than dirt. It also gives one a bit of perspective. I can remember the cries of “The coming ice age” in the mid 70’s. You were probably not yet a gleam in your daddy’s eye at that point. Hell, if Jack Kennedy were alive today… he’d be a conservative compared the wack jobs the dems have been electing now days.
I will continue to seek out knowledge regarding climate change, real or otherwise. I’m certain in 4 billion years your hot air won’t make a speck of difference in any case.
Pragmatic, based on your previous posts, I am sure that so long as “otherwise” suits your pre-conceived notions, then “real” won’t make one iota of difference in how you view the datum. I’m also sure that in 4 billion years the “cap and tax” bill before congress will not have made on damn bit of difference in our climate either.
I’m proud to be a “tea bagger”, tired of government excess and manipulation. And contrary to the way things might work in your world, I do not “spout” for others. I am capable of reason, research and response.
As far as you parting hand gesture, thanks, but I didn’t need the raised single digit, I already had a good idea of your IQ
Robert Peterson
14 years ago
Pragmatic,
I’ve read your initial postby and all the following replys, but have yet to see where anyone has gone to the root cause of the problem, which is Money! That’s always the motivation for those promoting one objective over all others.
Now I trust you are a firm believer in man-made climate change, personally I’m not, but that’s irrelivant; neither one of us is likely to become ritch over the subject, but Al Gore and others are, including a number of those scientists who are too willing to look the other way and jump on the money bandwagon of grants and projects too numerous to mention. If you have any doubts about that I’d suggest you investigate the Billions that are being doled-out weekly by the DOE and other government agencies for Clean Energy projects.
Fact is our world has a much greater tollerance for temperature change than does our speecies; considering the available temperature range in the universe from absolute zero to thousands of degrees at the surface of our sun and other stars, the small temperature variations experienced by Earth over time is amazingly minimal. The tendancy of individuals to percieve climate change within a lifetime is totally without scientific merrit, any meaningful sample of would require several lifetimes to acquire to be representative of any trend.
So it boils down to a discussion of profit, who makes it and who is left holding the bag! In any case you, me and everyone else on this site are more likely to get stuck with the bill than to profit by the actions of unscrupulious “Experts”. In that regard we’re all on the same side of the argument.
MindJedi
14 years ago
Prag, Being an American doesnt MAKE what we believe consistant with our Beautiful, if not messy history. As you have rightly stated, “the good and the bad and everything in between.” I too am an American, not just an american, but an ALASKAN. What makes my belief system of value to my nation is because–Specifically, I hold true the fundimental (and simple) truths that OUR forefathers established ON ONE SINGLE PAGE. I know that you are familiar with the DECLARATION of independance and the bill of RIGHTS that accompanies said article. It is those articles of liberty that not only make you and I an american, not only a citizen of the united states of america, but also (in my case) an ALASKAN. That is a right that is to be enforced by the FEDERAL mandates of our government (right or left) and is not UNIVERSAL. I do believe that there are politicians on both sides of the isle that are in their right minds. And like you, I cannot stand the political mind game that MSM tries to play with the masses. The duty of our public servants is to PROTECT what WAS established, not to change it based on current trends or World events. UNLESS WE THE PEOPLE have a vested interest in declaring it neccessary.
OUR CIVIL duty is not to agree with Mr. Obama, but to REMIND HIM and EVERY OTHER LEADER, of their SWORN DUTY….to UPHOLD our constitution and all that IT (at the hands of those who wrote and declared it with their very lives) was created to enforce. I do not believe that Mr. Obama really believes in the “simple” truths that shape our liberty. I do believe that he has based his political agendas on Sentiment and good intentions, but without tangible results to those ends, we might as well elect a Cooper Anderson who “really wants good things to happen for everyone” (see excerpt from bruce almighty). I will say again, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOUR LIFE IS GURANTEED TO BE FREE AND CLEAR OF DANGER, but I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT YOU BELIEVE, are in YOUR BEST INTEREST, EVEN IF THOSE DECISIONS (your RIGHT to choose) LANDS YOU IN A WORSE POSITION THAN YOU STARTED OUT IN. (see excerpts from the Bernie maydolf scandle)
Climate change. I am sure you are familiar with the findings in the northernmost parts of both of our countries of Mammoths being found with whole tropical berries, undigested in their stomachs. FROZEN SOLID. I am certain that didn’t happen slowly. Our Climate is changing, but only because IT IS a natural phenomenon (currently unexplainable to many people, unless they believe in creationism) The alaskan tundra is NOT softening contrary to popular opinion, it would be great if it would, (trust me, the retreat of perma frost would save the state budget some 100’s of thousands of dollars) and the Polar bears are NOT endangered. Just go to Barrow for a few weeks in December, you will understand quickly why people don’t go out by the ice/water when it’s dark out. And why there are signs up and down the entire coast of the small city that scream out DANGER POLAR BEAR WARNING. it’s because there are more now than ever before…. That is in an area that has been shared with humans for the past hundered years.
When my president, unopologetically alignes himself with the likes of self declared “socialists and communists”. And he adopts philisophical policies that are endorsed by people who have been found to have based their statements of UNBIASED SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS In regard to our economic policies on what has been found to be absolute fabrication of ANY DAGREE (see a geometric text on angles or grids) do not challenge his personal right and privalege to do so, I do however see that as grounds for empeachment based on the simple truth; that is our INDEPENDANDCE DAY, which was established a couple of hundred years before you and I were born. Mr. Obama does not have the RIGHT to use his current position to create a “new system of government.” Remember, “You can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear bad fruit.” “let your YES be YES and your NO be NO.” That goes for Dems and RePs alike.
Again, the answers are always much simpler in their true form.
@Sean: I believe you just proved who needs the anger management here.
Once again I request that you stick to the topic here.
If you are unable to do that without tossing in a bunch of hateful or obscene crap then your comments will be edited or deleted altogether.
That was my last warning.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mind Jedi,
Thank you for taking the time to explain your views on the politics you feel are involved in the research and how it affects the upcoming treaty meeting. Even though we disagree on the finer points of governing this great country you seem willing to discuss your views and not go out of your way to degrade my views. Thank You for the consideration.
Rabid politics sometimes degrades to insults and name calling. Winning an argument at all cost is something some people are ready, willing and able to do. I’m not one of them.
I sincerely hope that climate change is just a miscalculation or at worse a man made crisis. I am not a stupid person, just one that wants to question all sides and try to come to educated conclusions.
Thanks again for your time and insight.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike,
You are a true american, small case LOL
Thanks for the EDIT:)
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike Mike Mile,
The WHOLE post was profanity? LOL
That’s 7 more years of pure torture for you my friend. I can call you my friend can’t I?
Wow, talk about thin skinned… oh well I’ll try to tone it down.
Okay, I have read all the posts and looks like I am the only one to be censored. Now I understand the profanity being edited but the whole post? C’mon. New flopping aces Patriot act?
Anyway, Thanks for the info to all who actually gave some up. I do appreciate it.
First things first.
The very first thing you did was come into our sandbox and lay a turd. WTF did you expect from that?
The last thing you did was flip us the bird!
Now you act PRAGMATIC with you question (2 points for having a real question) but still feel the need to couch it in ad-hominem rhetoric.
How about YOU relax, realize and accept that you are not among those who think as you do, and open your mind to the possibility that we might be nicer if not initially shat upon. I seem to be able to go onto lefty sites without first making enemies, and I find that there is always someone willing to keep an open mind. You will find that here as well, but I will also clearly state that some may continue to bash the hell out of you. Apologies and a thick skin go along way, but starting out with the question (framed in a mature manner) is usually a good beginning no matter the alien audience.
Yet even your question concludes with an immediate dismissal, so it it really a question?
No. It is a the repeating of a sub-conscience statement you want very much to remain true, but the shock and realization that it might not be, slightly scares you because you yourself know that you do not have enough evidence to make a good case for your own position (other than what you’ve been told to think). I can fully understand this, and mean no disparagement is saying it. The media, the schools, the governments, and big-business have been working this into our collective psyche for over 20 years, an unless you have spent an inordinate amount of time doing your own research, I can’t blame you or anyone for defending AGW.
Having ones paradigm flipped over isn’t easy to come to grips with, no matter who it’s happening to, thus the establishment of a “pre-defense” mechanism built into your question.
We’ve all done it at some point, those who haven’t probably will at some point.
You just happened across a guy who eat this stuff up, and has been for those same 20 years. I know my chemistry, and my facts. I’ve learned enough to know that none of what we’ve been told has anything to do with warming, let alone CO2. But let’s take your questions at face value, and maybe a new path is laid open for you.
why are the caps and the glaciers melting as fast as they are currently?
Because they must, and have been for over 10,000 years. We are about halfway through an inter-glacial period. During the Medieval Warm Period (1000ad) which lasted about 200 years, it was about as warm as we see today, maybe a little warmer. The glaciers were much more melted than we see today. That warm period is also why we see increases in our CO2 concentrations, but that’s for a different discussion. Hundreds of years later, (late 1700’s) we got relatively cold again, and glacier-growth made-up a lot of it’s loss mass. Since that time, we’ve become warm again, and here we are. We have never exceeded “normal” and that fact can be verified by the data that CRU has held back, and by the words of their own scientist’s when they thought they would never be exposed. I have many quotes, by many of them, and I have their data. NOAA and the UN both quietly “corrected” the statement that the 90’s were the “hottest”, and we have known since 2003 that the 30’s were. (In the modern era.) It’s just that if they told the major media, they would look silly, and set the “Plan” back again.
It also depends on the glacier, and where it is, (and if it’s being reported on). Notice that the ones you hear about are in the northern hemisphere. Many in the south are still growing, including the largest ones in S.America and Antarctica. That place is freakin huge, but ask yourself why they ONLY seem to talk about the Western Shelf? The rest of the continent is gaining ice-mass at a rate never before seen, and has been for 8 years. A combination of more mass pushing the back of the floating glacier, and multi-year cyclical warm water passing under it, has made it break off. Larger breaks were recorded in the 40’s. This (relatively) warmer water comes to the fore about every 20 years. That water temp returned to cold least year.
If you like, I can direct you to the sea-ice site run by NASA, that let’s you watch the ice-amount day-by-day in the north pole and pole regions. You will see that the past couple of years, the ice is making a dramatic comeback in the north. This was predicted by the solar scientists. The ocean’s (surface-temps) have also dropped temps in that same time-period. The planet has stopped warming for the past 8 years, and is now been dropping for the past 2. AS PREDICTED. The fact that the sunspot activity is mirroring the period just before 1760 scares the hell out of many solar scientists because it got cold, and stayed cold for 50 years.
Those guys whose e-mails were snatched, did NOT predict this, nor were any of their 4 different computer models able to correctly “predict” temps when they have been tested against the past 50 years of actual raw data! They disparaged the solar scientist’s and actively squashed publication-papers of several of them.
That’s enough for now. I’ll talk about what CO2 can and can’t do later if you are still around.
Please enjoy your stay, and don’t put your fingers in the cages.
They are hungry, and they WILL bite.
Well OK, but by now you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t have anything substantive to say about the content of this post which is an examination of the poor quality of the science underpinning global warming.
Donald Bly
14 years ago
Gotta love Alaska… after all, I was born there, it must be a great place.
@Pragmatic
I will try to address issues that you brought up in two different posts.
If, as I have been told by you, humans are not causing climate change and besides the all encompassing answer you are passing off as “truth” that it is just a normal climate cycle, why are the caps and the glaciers melting as fast as they are currently? Why is the tundra softening, why are rivers that froze every winter since human memory now only freezing to a fraction of the depth they once did?
To answer the above I suggest that one possibility is Snowball effect in conjunction with solar activity. Snowball effect is a figurative term for a process that starts from an initial state of small significance and builds upon itself. This can work in two ways. Global cooling when the surface of the earth is covered by greater and greater amounts of ice and snow until reflective properties reach a point where cooling continues regardless of geological activity that might otherwise reverse the process. It takes some external event to reverse the situation.
In the case of global warming, we first must remember that the earth has been warming since the end of the last ice age, there have been numerous ice ages, and there is less and less ice and snow to reflect energy back into space. Once enough of the reflective surface has dissipated the process continues until some other event reverses the course. IE: Asteroid or Comet strike that basically puts the world into the equivalent of a “nuclear winter”
And the cycles repeat….
Now for your other issue(s):
My anger comes from the statements I hear by the rights “entertainers”. They say things like “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”. I’d like to know, take it back from who? I’d like to know just who fails when our President fails. Is the right so distraught over losing control of the country to actually wish for these things for our country?
In their crystal balls they predict Obama will be the worst President in history, after 11 months in office! Instead of positive concerted effort to raise this country out of an economic catastrophe, they instead look to place blame. They have been asked repeatedly to help mend this country and instead wish for it’s leader(s) to fail.
Barak Obama stated before the election that “We are 5 days away from FUNDAMENTALLY changing America”. Since that statement he has advocated for policies that will essentially take the US further and further down the socialist path and quite possibly bankrupt the nation through reckless fiscal policy while ignoring the number one item to which he should be focused. The creation of JOBS by losing the regulations and taxation that government imposes which stifles job growth. I hope that the current agenda of National Health Care Reform or National Health Insurance Reform or whatever they are calling it this week does fail. I hope that the Cap and Tax bill fails. I want any policy that moves us closer to socialism to fail. If Barak Obama’s agenda is to fundamentally change America into a marxist society I want him to fail.
I started fighting back with rhetoric to do 2 things. One is to point out their own failures as they take such great pleasure pointing out the lefts shortcomings while ignoring their own. The next is to try to get to the bottom of WHY? If you put aside the ideology, we are all Americans.
I just hope as the years go by this country finds something to make it whole again.
Yes we have an economic crisis but it was not caused by GW Bush… there’s another article on this site that details the timeline of Jimmy Carter’s Community Reinvestment Act and how Government interference in private markets has caused the problems we are currently facing.
I want all Americans to return to their roots and remember what made this country great… and it wasn’t Government it was the people.
jstol3
14 years ago
What a pity! Did we just see a dogmatic liberal self-destruct?
I don’t have any sympathy. I really don’t. I tried to reason with him but reason wasn’t what he wanted, was it?
The last time I joined a liberal blog site I was called names and the next day my userid and password wouldn’t work anymore.
Mike, you have shown far more patience with Pragmatic than they showed me and I didn’t even extend my middle finger.
I called the “Democratic” Party the Democrat Party – that was it.
BTW, Pragmatic, only until 11/10 will your beloved Democrats rule and only until 11/12 will this President rule and he may be forced out sooner. How do ya like them apples?
Pragmatic
14 years ago
My last post went poof! and self=destruct? HUH? Takes more than a couple of nasty remarks. Sorry to disappoint you.
Just wanted to let you know, I wanted to share my good fortune so I posted a link to your site. hope you don’t mind.
Desolation, could be because you’ve hit a a level beyond your Craigslist reading comprehension….
Fascinating commentary. ummmm May take me a nanosecond or two to digest such deep thoughts. LOL
UPDATE: where did his comment go??? Well, guess it’s a moot point, eh?
So Prag, was Craigslist buds one of your shared links? “Desolate” evidently masqueraded as spam quite well as he ended up in the garbage bin quite quickly. Then again, it’s an apt cyber handle considering his comment. All that vast wasteland between the ears….
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike, while I can post.
Isn’t the objective of this site to get out the information posted? If you look over the postings you’ll see I was engaged with the moderates who did not disparage me. So Mission accomplished!
I do have a better understanding of the rights take on climate change and how they feel about the upcoming summit. Once again, Mission Accomplished!
I’d also like to mention that you haven’t made a convert and no matter how many times I’m wrongly accused of leaving, you are wrong. Still here. Jumping to conclusions is an internet constant.
@Pragmatic: Once again a total lack of anything substantive.
You’ve had one or two interesting comments to make and the remaining 90% is crap.
You claim to have an understanding of the “rights [SIC]take” on this issue yet I haven’t seen you demonstrate that you even comprehend what this post is all about.
For the last time, do you have anything to say about this scandal in particular or climate change in general or are you simply looking to start a food fight?
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Pat and Don
Thank you both for the detailed explinations of both your politcal postions and scientific postions. I appreciate it more than you know. Thank you also for pointing out the pitfalls one may encounter while I’m behind the DMZ.
As Mike has pointed out several times, sometime I just can’t help myself when it comes to my political leanings. Believe it or not I am open minded and that is why I am still reading and posting.
That being said, I want you to know my original post(s) were posted out of a pure ignorance of this site mission. Let it be said that if the insults come out of my mouth again, I will be fully aware of my surroundings. Not that that would stop me but would be more,,,,meaningful, yes that’s the word:) Until that time I will temper my words and comments.
I need to get up tom work so now I have to head to bed but will re=read your comments and post my thoughts tomorrow.
Once again. Thanks to those who stepped up and sent out information and answerd my questions!
Hard Right
14 years ago
He probably had to ask someone else for those two good points, Mike. Now that he’s out of borrowed ammo it has to go back to spewing hatred.
Sounds like it’s calling for backup after getting it’s butt kicked.
Pragmatic
14 years ago
Mike,
Do you have to chime in and comment on every single post I make? Now you’re a spelling Nazi too? What exactly is your objective Mike? I mean if you can Kick/ban me, have at it, otherwise why don’t you keep your trap shut and “moderate” instead editorializing every single post I make?
You have mentioned I can’t help myself. How about you put yourself in check.
If you can’t take the explanations for my original postings as the truth, too Bad, so sad, get over it and cry me a river…. sound familiar?
Petty, petty, petty.
was that spelled correctly?
good nite
Hard Right
14 years ago
I think you’ve gotten under it’s skin, Mike.
Prag, I can spell a few words that describe you quite well. Hypocrite and projection.
As for your postings, they have been thoroughly debunked. YOU can’t handle the truth.
@Pragmatic: I’m not just moderating this post, but I am also a participant in the discussion. I also have a background in the global warming issue that goes back to the 1990’s when I worked for the Environmental Protection Agency in Washington.
So, if you ever do decide to come up with something substantive to add I’ll be all ears.
@ Mike.
Sure! I can do dat. I’ll send it to you to massage when I’m done.
Well Well, a nest of right wing nuts. Preaching, pontificating, insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies. Wow! What a big surprise. Just like real life, a lot of hot air from the right.
Where was all the righteous indignation when the last administration lied about WMD to invade the wrong country? Where was your indignation when we had Bin Laden in our sights and Rumsfeld dropped the ball? Where was your outcry when every single terrorist in Gitmo has not been executed? Never mind Obama will take care of it for you.
You are preaching to each other and not helping the overall divisions in the US.
The vast majority of Americans want more controls on pollution whether it counteracts alleged climate change or not. Some of us actually want to leave a habitable planet to our children and grandchildren. I am sincerely sorry you don’t feel the same way.
@Pragmatic: Your comment makes NO SENSE. We’ve heard all this HATE BUSH crapola before. It has NOTHING TO DO with the subject of this post.]
And if you think Co2 is pollution, STOP BREATHING! CO2 is just as essential to life on this planet as oxygen.
You just try growing food without it.
Now, GROW UP!
@Pragmatic:
Moby.
Moby.
Moby.
Condescention…check.
Strawman….check.
Does not address topic….check.
Holier than though attitude….check.
Yep, it’s another leftwing nutjob delivering a common nut root rant.
Hey Pragmatic:
The thread isn’t about Bush
The thread isn’t about WMD
The thread isn’t about Osama
The thread isn’t about Rumsfeld
The thread IS about
Pragmatic:
The thread is about a bunch of lying Left Wing nutjobs who profess to be doing one thing under the guise of grabbing power and money.
The thread is not about a woman being arrested in a park either.
Typical right wing nut cases. Carry On
Pragmatic:
To continue with the thread, it is important to recognize the signs of a hoax; this
is true particularly when politicians begin discussing science.
When politicians, or scientists with an agenda, begin citing a “consensus of scientists”,
your BS detector should kick in. Science has nothing to do with consensus. Consensus
is the business of politics. The greatest scientists in history are great because they broke
with consensus; e.g. the earth is not flat, the universe doesn’t revolve around the earth,
and so on. Real scientists do not skew data or suppress challenges.
@Pragmatic:
And, here comes the typical…..
“So, there!” Little hands on hips, sticks out tongue. Now come the attempts at the…..last word.
Bobby.
I agree with you completely and currently there is a body of evidence that suggest that climate change has been overstated from the beginning. I still have doubts about it not actually taking place from varied reports on ice cap degradation and the loss of glaciers sheets world wide.
I understand that this may be cyclical in the scheme of nature but it has been measured to be occurring at an very accelerated rate. This is information provided by scientific researchers and not spun by politicians.
My question would be: What if it is the human race changing the climate. By the time any type of controls are put into place it may be too late if you are incorrect.
As for my original posting, I was just pointing out how the thread is set up to encourage political dialog, albeit skewed to the right. The subsequent responses just confirmed my initial impression, yours in particular notwithstanding.
Missy, I like your attitude:)
@Pragmatic finally on topic says: “I agree that climate change has been overstated since the start but have questions as to whether the cycle we are currently in is man made or natural. If the natural has it been accelerated by man. all I have read indicates it has been accelerated. “
I’m glad you got that Bush Bile out of your system. There is research to suggest that Bush Bile actually causes global warming and I wouldn’t want you fined by the United Nations.
Obviously you have realized that the “questions” surrounding the issue here is NOT SETTLED. So certainly you might also agree that we should rush into spending $TRILLIONS on a problem that might not exist.
I’m sure you support programs to combat hunger, disease and illiteracy worldwide as I do. What a shame that instead of addressing these REAL problems we would waste so much time addressing a non existent problem.
P.S. Talking about “Obama bashing” while you openly engage in Bush bashing doesn’t lend much credibility to ANYTHING you might have to say.
Pragmatic:
I got a chuckle out of Missy’s comment. It was very graphic.
I think that it is some of both: manmade and natural.
The melting ice is certainly bothersome. I just have a
hard time with doomsday predictions.
The largest issue that I have with the releases from
the Climate Research Center, if they turn out to be true,
is that it casts an extremely dark shadow on science itself.
We are in accord that the hard right and the hard left don’t
leave any room for debate on the issues (of any sort!).
I thought I lost a post and re wrote my thoughts and posted them. Huh. Now my original shows up…Sorry about double posting the same info.
Let me ‘splain, Prag…. I saw a post in the spam filter, saw it was you, then set it free. Then when looking to catch up thru comments, I see you rewrote it. So I deleted one… I guess your second endeavor?… so you didn’t have a dual post.
’tis I in the background, bailing you out, then fixing the dual post. No problem on the double posting. You did the right thing as one of us may not be logged into set the spam filter trapped free…. LOL
Mike,
Perhaps if you read my entire (edited) post you’ll see in my mind I was fully justified in my political rant. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities (although I doubt your reply was about offending your sensibilities but just offending me). That being said, I have to point out I can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte.
MataHarley:
Thank You!
@Pragmatic said: “can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte. “
AGAIN WITH THE BILE!
Do you really think that’s the way to foster a useful dialogue on one of the most important public policy issues of our lifetime?
Mike,
Since you have decided that my thoughts are not worth your time and posted as much and feel that I can’t contribute in any way to your narrow point of view, why on earth would you respond my posting at all? It seems as if you have an agenda other than discussing climate change. Could it be your right wing training is showing? Honestly I didn’t see any complaints further up the board from you regarding Left wing bashing. There was more than a little Obama and liberal bashing being posted.
Short of an explanation and your reticence to post anything negative about the right I have to assume you are just another right winger who is feeling the pinch of no real power at this point.
Best of luck 2010
Pragmatic –
Is it your Left Wing bias that prevents you from seeing that we would not be discussing climate change at all if it were not for:
1. The manufacture of the issue by the Left as a vehicle with which to seize both power, money and elections.
2. Scientists who were all too willing to sell their integrity in order to help the Left with their agenda.
There was never any doubt in my mind that the whole issue was bogus. Climate has gone through radical changes for 4.5 billion years on this planet and will continue to do so with no help from man. What part of 4.5 billion years of change do you NOT understand? Everything from ice sheets covering the northern half of the country with glaciers a couple of miles thick to those same areas being tropical. There is a lot of climate change between the two extremes and man wasn’t even around then.
Science and history are not political in nature and should not be used to further political agendas.
The above is Pragmatic’s opening salvo….
I’ve gone back and read all the posts and the “insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies” pretty much begins with Pragmatic.
Pragmatic goes on to state
The whole issue behind “climategate” is that what you have read has most likely been manipulated for some reason other than “saving the world from CO2”. With the left so vocal about wealth redistribution… could it be real reason the left seems so willing to swallow this crock of crap.
I for one am grateful that I do not have to own an SUV gas guzzler so that I can navigate a glacier to get to a 7/11
PS.. Pragmatic, attempting to marginalize people as you did in your opening remarks only reinforces the idea that you aren’t debating with a winning arguement.
Harry Read Me!
OH Noes!
This isn’t the Harry Reid, we all know, is it?
Donald Bly.
Did it escape your attention that there are no centrist or left wing posts here? Has it occurred to you there is a reason for that? I mean besides the normal insulting reasons Limbaugh and Beck has you spout? Perhaps they are not up to being shouted down by the right wing nuts acting like tea baggers and town hall meeting rable rousers.
The glaring problem with most of you posting here, isolation. Not listening to the other side at all costs. I can visualize you like a 6 year old plugging his ears and making loud nonsense noise so that you don’t have to hear a word spoken.
I stand by my initial post. This is a nest of right wingers pontificating and doing it for the benefit of each other. No other reason whatsoever.
I will continue to seek out knowledge regarding climate change, real or otherwise. I’m certain in 4 billion years your hot air won’t make a speck of difference in any case.
Since I have been accused of having sent an opening salvo, here’s a parting one for the evening: Even if you wanted to stop The President from signing any agreement, you cannot stop it. Even if he needs Congressional approval, you cannot stop it. You have no real power at this point as the right wing lost many major elections, including the Presidency of the United States.
“Pragmatic stands with right hand in air with middle finger raised!”
@Donald Bly.
I find it entertaining to read that first one of his (and likewise with similar commenter’s) and then read the last one where they quit in a snit.
Frankly, I’ve been waiting around for him to ask a global-warming CO2 question, because in all likelihood, I could have given him a good, sound answer!
Out of every posted comment, he asked exactly one climate-related question:
Answer:
We are not changing the climate, as shown by the data that the CRU covered up. If you would like specifics, please ask specific questions, thank you.
What you see is a person whose Prophet has been destroyed, and is now faced with self-doubt and emptiness. He reacts by lashing out because it is the only “tool” left in the toolbox.
Prag, I have to compliment you with regard to your honesty about Evidence lacking in regard to global warming. That it does seem to contridict your origional statements about this “nest” of narcisistic conservatives, is of a curious note to me. I have lived independantly in what has become the heart of the European Union for a substantial amount of time (2 years) I was born and raised in the great state of ALASKA. I am referenceing two drastically different cultures, one representing what you would call (correct me if I am wrong) “innovative and progressively minded” and the other, I will refer to as what the liberal movement in our country is now calling “Palin Country.” Growing up in Alaska had a profound effect on my world view. The most influencial component being the TENS OF THOUSANDS of JAPANESE, AND EUROPEAN individuals and families that would spend hours and hours reminding my family of how blessed we were to have been born in America, especially in Alaska. The stories and analysis offered by many influencial people from those nations has continued to help shape my perspective on what has and is happening in our great nation. I cannot tell you how many people from the greatest nations in the world other than ours have emotionally demonstrated their desire to have what we have. Living in Europe only proved to confirm the testimonies of so many people. WE CONTINUE TO TAKE OUR FREEDOMS FOR GRANTED, INSTEAD WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT OUR LIFESTYLE SHOULD AND WILL BE BETTER, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS..
And that is a simple truth.
Relax
You know, a guy could fit right in here as long as he’s willing to ignore the facts that don’t fit into the conservative agenda….and it looks like there are quite a few doing just that. Just a thought.
Okay, here is a question regarding the topic:
If, as I have been told by you, humans are not causing climate change and besides the all encompassing answer you are passing off as “truth” that it is just a normal climate cycle, why are the caps and the glaciers melting as fast as they are currently? Why is the tundra softening, why are rivers that froze every winter since human memory now only freezing to a fraction of the depth they once did?
Please don;t use the universal answer of “natural, normal cycle”. I think we all know there is more to it than that.
I think it’s funny that posters with a more liberal political bend, use phrases like “shouting down” and ranting on about “not listening at all costs”. I must beg to differ, go and live in any other counry and have real conversations with anyone who has a grasp of these issues, and you will find that wishful thinking does not translate into reality very often. It is the exception not the rule. That is another reason I love america, our country gives you the freedom to PURSUE your DREAMS, it does not garantee the fruition of them. That is up to YOU and your hard work. Which is why I am a conservative, because I believe you have the right to be an idiot without anyone regulating your waste oxygen.
Mind Jedi,
I read your post and have to make a couple of comments. 1st is that I am an American. I love this country and all it represents. We have the best of the best and the worst of the worst and all things in between. I agree that given the choice, even our most hated enemies would move here. I lived in Central BC for some time next to the great state of Alaska so I know the beauty that that area of the globe represents.
My anger comes from the statements I hear by the rights “entertainers”. They say things like “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”. I’d like to know, take it back from who? I’d like to know just who fails when our President fails. Is the right so distraught over losing control of the country to actually wish for these things for our country?
In their crystal balls they predict Obama will be the worst President in history, after 11 months in office! Instead of positive concerted effort to raise this country out of an economic catastrophe, they instead look to place blame. They have been asked repeatedly to help mend this country and instead wish for it’s leader(s) to fail.
I started fighting back with rhetoric to do 2 things. One is to point out their own failures as they take such great pleasure pointing out the lefts shortcomings while ignoring their own. The next is to try to get to the bottom of WHY? If you put aside the ideology, we are all Americans.
I just hope as the years go by this country finds something to make it whole again.
Gee, Pragmatic, I thought you left with your index finger raised. Unfortunately for you I am not willing to concede that there is more than “natural and normal” ocurring here.
During the glacial periods where did the water go? It became ice and covered the land.
When the glaciers melted where did the water go? It went back to the sea and the sea levels rose and covered some of the land.
When the ground which was previously covered by glaciers began to thaw what happened? The ground became squishy.
All of this happened without any benefit from man. Why do you believe that it is otherwise now?
When you inhale your body uses oxygen. When you exhale you emit CO2. Plants use CO2 and emit oxygen for us to use. We need each other and we exist on those gases. What is so hard to understand about that being a natural cycle?
What I just wrote is science. It is not Right or Left. It is fact and you and I both know it.
So, tell us, what is the problem with that?
@ Pragmatic
Like the climate, political power is also in a constant state of change. And while we’re on the subject of political power, here’s a civics lesson. For a treaty to be ratified, it requires a 2/3 vote of the Senate. Pay attention in school and you won’t come off like you’re talking outta your…
I’ve seen Presidents come and Presidents go, that’s one of the benefits of being older than dirt. It also gives one a bit of perspective. I can remember the cries of “The coming ice age” in the mid 70’s. You were probably not yet a gleam in your daddy’s eye at that point. Hell, if Jack Kennedy were alive today… he’d be a conservative compared the wack jobs the dems have been electing now days.
Pragmatic, based on your previous posts, I am sure that so long as “otherwise” suits your pre-conceived notions, then “real” won’t make one iota of difference in how you view the datum. I’m also sure that in 4 billion years the “cap and tax” bill before congress will not have made on damn bit of difference in our climate either.
I’m proud to be a “tea bagger”, tired of government excess and manipulation. And contrary to the way things might work in your world, I do not “spout” for others. I am capable of reason, research and response.
As far as you parting hand gesture, thanks, but I didn’t need the raised single digit, I already had a good idea of your IQ
Pragmatic,
I’ve read your initial postby and all the following replys, but have yet to see where anyone has gone to the root cause of the problem, which is Money! That’s always the motivation for those promoting one objective over all others.
Now I trust you are a firm believer in man-made climate change, personally I’m not, but that’s irrelivant; neither one of us is likely to become ritch over the subject, but Al Gore and others are, including a number of those scientists who are too willing to look the other way and jump on the money bandwagon of grants and projects too numerous to mention. If you have any doubts about that I’d suggest you investigate the Billions that are being doled-out weekly by the DOE and other government agencies for Clean Energy projects.
Fact is our world has a much greater tollerance for temperature change than does our speecies; considering the available temperature range in the universe from absolute zero to thousands of degrees at the surface of our sun and other stars, the small temperature variations experienced by Earth over time is amazingly minimal. The tendancy of individuals to percieve climate change within a lifetime is totally without scientific merrit, any meaningful sample of would require several lifetimes to acquire to be representative of any trend.
So it boils down to a discussion of profit, who makes it and who is left holding the bag! In any case you, me and everyone else on this site are more likely to get stuck with the bill than to profit by the actions of unscrupulious “Experts”. In that regard we’re all on the same side of the argument.
Prag, Being an American doesnt MAKE what we believe consistant with our Beautiful, if not messy history. As you have rightly stated, “the good and the bad and everything in between.” I too am an American, not just an american, but an ALASKAN. What makes my belief system of value to my nation is because–Specifically, I hold true the fundimental (and simple) truths that OUR forefathers established ON ONE SINGLE PAGE. I know that you are familiar with the DECLARATION of independance and the bill of RIGHTS that accompanies said article. It is those articles of liberty that not only make you and I an american, not only a citizen of the united states of america, but also (in my case) an ALASKAN. That is a right that is to be enforced by the FEDERAL mandates of our government (right or left) and is not UNIVERSAL. I do believe that there are politicians on both sides of the isle that are in their right minds. And like you, I cannot stand the political mind game that MSM tries to play with the masses. The duty of our public servants is to PROTECT what WAS established, not to change it based on current trends or World events. UNLESS WE THE PEOPLE have a vested interest in declaring it neccessary.
OUR CIVIL duty is not to agree with Mr. Obama, but to REMIND HIM and EVERY OTHER LEADER, of their SWORN DUTY….to UPHOLD our constitution and all that IT (at the hands of those who wrote and declared it with their very lives) was created to enforce. I do not believe that Mr. Obama really believes in the “simple” truths that shape our liberty. I do believe that he has based his political agendas on Sentiment and good intentions, but without tangible results to those ends, we might as well elect a Cooper Anderson who “really wants good things to happen for everyone” (see excerpt from bruce almighty). I will say again, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOUR LIFE IS GURANTEED TO BE FREE AND CLEAR OF DANGER, but I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT YOU BELIEVE, are in YOUR BEST INTEREST, EVEN IF THOSE DECISIONS (your RIGHT to choose) LANDS YOU IN A WORSE POSITION THAN YOU STARTED OUT IN. (see excerpts from the Bernie maydolf scandle)
Climate change. I am sure you are familiar with the findings in the northernmost parts of both of our countries of Mammoths being found with whole tropical berries, undigested in their stomachs. FROZEN SOLID. I am certain that didn’t happen slowly. Our Climate is changing, but only because IT IS a natural phenomenon (currently unexplainable to many people, unless they believe in creationism) The alaskan tundra is NOT softening contrary to popular opinion, it would be great if it would, (trust me, the retreat of perma frost would save the state budget some 100’s of thousands of dollars) and the Polar bears are NOT endangered. Just go to Barrow for a few weeks in December, you will understand quickly why people don’t go out by the ice/water when it’s dark out. And why there are signs up and down the entire coast of the small city that scream out DANGER POLAR BEAR WARNING. it’s because there are more now than ever before…. That is in an area that has been shared with humans for the past hundered years.
When my president, unopologetically alignes himself with the likes of self declared “socialists and communists”. And he adopts philisophical policies that are endorsed by people who have been found to have based their statements of UNBIASED SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS In regard to our economic policies on what has been found to be absolute fabrication of ANY DAGREE (see a geometric text on angles or grids) do not challenge his personal right and privalege to do so, I do however see that as grounds for empeachment based on the simple truth; that is our INDEPENDANDCE DAY, which was established a couple of hundred years before you and I were born. Mr. Obama does not have the RIGHT to use his current position to create a “new system of government.” Remember, “You can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear bad fruit.” “let your YES be YES and your NO be NO.” That goes for Dems and RePs alike.
Again, the answers are always much simpler in their true form.
@Pragmatic: So it bothers you when we say “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”.
Tough!
Too bad!
Cry me a river!
I bet it didn’t bother you one bit when the left was doing that and WORSE to Bush for EIGHT YEARS!
You came in here with such an arrogant attitude and seem more interested in starting a food fight than engaging in an honest discussion.
I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt THREE TIMES now and you don’t seem to be able to drop the bile.
And yet you complain about that in other people? Isn’t there a word that describes that?
Now, could you PLEASE stick to the topic and check your anti-conservative bile at the door?
Hey Mike
[OBSCENITIES DELETED BY POST MODERATOR]
@Sean: I believe you just proved who needs the anger management here.
Once again I request that you stick to the topic here.
If you are unable to do that without tossing in a bunch of hateful or obscene crap then your comments will be edited or deleted altogether.
That was my last warning.
Mind Jedi,
Thank you for taking the time to explain your views on the politics you feel are involved in the research and how it affects the upcoming treaty meeting. Even though we disagree on the finer points of governing this great country you seem willing to discuss your views and not go out of your way to degrade my views. Thank You for the consideration.
Rabid politics sometimes degrades to insults and name calling. Winning an argument at all cost is something some people are ready, willing and able to do. I’m not one of them.
I sincerely hope that climate change is just a miscalculation or at worse a man made crisis. I am not a stupid person, just one that wants to question all sides and try to come to educated conclusions.
Thanks again for your time and insight.
Mike,
You are a true american, small case LOL
Thanks for the EDIT:)
Mike Mike Mile,
The WHOLE post was profanity? LOL
That’s 7 more years of pure torture for you my friend. I can call you my friend can’t I?
Wow, talk about thin skinned… oh well I’ll try to tone it down.
Okay, I have read all the posts and looks like I am the only one to be censored. Now I understand the profanity being edited but the whole post? C’mon. New flopping aces Patriot act?
Anyway, Thanks for the info to all who actually gave some up. I do appreciate it.
@ Prag
*sigh* (I don’t know why I do this….)
First things first.
The very first thing you did was come into our sandbox and lay a turd. WTF did you expect from that?
The last thing you did was flip us the bird!
Now you act PRAGMATIC with you question (2 points for having a real question) but still feel the need to couch it in ad-hominem rhetoric.
How about YOU relax, realize and accept that you are not among those who think as you do, and open your mind to the possibility that we might be nicer if not initially shat upon. I seem to be able to go onto lefty sites without first making enemies, and I find that there is always someone willing to keep an open mind. You will find that here as well, but I will also clearly state that some may continue to bash the hell out of you. Apologies and a thick skin go along way, but starting out with the question (framed in a mature manner) is usually a good beginning no matter the alien audience.
Yet even your question concludes with an immediate dismissal, so it it really a question?
No. It is a the repeating of a sub-conscience statement you want very much to remain true, but the shock and realization that it might not be, slightly scares you because you yourself know that you do not have enough evidence to make a good case for your own position (other than what you’ve been told to think). I can fully understand this, and mean no disparagement is saying it. The media, the schools, the governments, and big-business have been working this into our collective psyche for over 20 years, an unless you have spent an inordinate amount of time doing your own research, I can’t blame you or anyone for defending AGW.
Having ones paradigm flipped over isn’t easy to come to grips with, no matter who it’s happening to, thus the establishment of a “pre-defense” mechanism built into your question.
We’ve all done it at some point, those who haven’t probably will at some point.
You just happened across a guy who eat this stuff up, and has been for those same 20 years. I know my chemistry, and my facts. I’ve learned enough to know that none of what we’ve been told has anything to do with warming, let alone CO2. But let’s take your questions at face value, and maybe a new path is laid open for you.
Because they must, and have been for over 10,000 years. We are about halfway through an inter-glacial period. During the Medieval Warm Period (1000ad) which lasted about 200 years, it was about as warm as we see today, maybe a little warmer. The glaciers were much more melted than we see today. That warm period is also why we see increases in our CO2 concentrations, but that’s for a different discussion. Hundreds of years later, (late 1700’s) we got relatively cold again, and glacier-growth made-up a lot of it’s loss mass. Since that time, we’ve become warm again, and here we are. We have never exceeded “normal” and that fact can be verified by the data that CRU has held back, and by the words of their own scientist’s when they thought they would never be exposed. I have many quotes, by many of them, and I have their data. NOAA and the UN both quietly “corrected” the statement that the 90’s were the “hottest”, and we have known since 2003 that the 30’s were. (In the modern era.) It’s just that if they told the major media, they would look silly, and set the “Plan” back again.
It also depends on the glacier, and where it is, (and if it’s being reported on). Notice that the ones you hear about are in the northern hemisphere. Many in the south are still growing, including the largest ones in S.America and Antarctica. That place is freakin huge, but ask yourself why they ONLY seem to talk about the Western Shelf? The rest of the continent is gaining ice-mass at a rate never before seen, and has been for 8 years. A combination of more mass pushing the back of the floating glacier, and multi-year cyclical warm water passing under it, has made it break off. Larger breaks were recorded in the 40’s. This (relatively) warmer water comes to the fore about every 20 years. That water temp returned to cold least year.
If you like, I can direct you to the sea-ice site run by NASA, that let’s you watch the ice-amount day-by-day in the north pole and pole regions. You will see that the past couple of years, the ice is making a dramatic comeback in the north. This was predicted by the solar scientists. The ocean’s (surface-temps) have also dropped temps in that same time-period. The planet has stopped warming for the past 8 years, and is now been dropping for the past 2. AS PREDICTED. The fact that the sunspot activity is mirroring the period just before 1760 scares the hell out of many solar scientists because it got cold, and stayed cold for 50 years.
Those guys whose e-mails were snatched, did NOT predict this, nor were any of their 4 different computer models able to correctly “predict” temps when they have been tested against the past 50 years of actual raw data! They disparaged the solar scientist’s and actively squashed publication-papers of several of them.
That’s enough for now. I’ll talk about what CO2 can and can’t do later if you are still around.
Please enjoy your stay, and don’t put your fingers in the cages.
They are hungry, and they WILL bite.
@Pragmatic: You just can’t help yourself can you?
Well OK, but by now you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t have anything substantive to say about the content of this post which is an examination of the poor quality of the science underpinning global warming.
Gotta love Alaska… after all, I was born there, it must be a great place.
@Pragmatic
I will try to address issues that you brought up in two different posts.
To answer the above I suggest that one possibility is Snowball effect in conjunction with solar activity. Snowball effect is a figurative term for a process that starts from an initial state of small significance and builds upon itself. This can work in two ways. Global cooling when the surface of the earth is covered by greater and greater amounts of ice and snow until reflective properties reach a point where cooling continues regardless of geological activity that might otherwise reverse the process. It takes some external event to reverse the situation.
In the case of global warming, we first must remember that the earth has been warming since the end of the last ice age, there have been numerous ice ages, and there is less and less ice and snow to reflect energy back into space. Once enough of the reflective surface has dissipated the process continues until some other event reverses the course. IE: Asteroid or Comet strike that basically puts the world into the equivalent of a “nuclear winter”
And the cycles repeat….
Now for your other issue(s):
Barak Obama stated before the election that “We are 5 days away from FUNDAMENTALLY changing America”. Since that statement he has advocated for policies that will essentially take the US further and further down the socialist path and quite possibly bankrupt the nation through reckless fiscal policy while ignoring the number one item to which he should be focused. The creation of JOBS by losing the regulations and taxation that government imposes which stifles job growth. I hope that the current agenda of National Health Care Reform or National Health Insurance Reform or whatever they are calling it this week does fail. I hope that the Cap and Tax bill fails. I want any policy that moves us closer to socialism to fail. If Barak Obama’s agenda is to fundamentally change America into a marxist society I want him to fail.
Yes we have an economic crisis but it was not caused by GW Bush… there’s another article on this site that details the timeline of Jimmy Carter’s Community Reinvestment Act and how Government interference in private markets has caused the problems we are currently facing.
I want all Americans to return to their roots and remember what made this country great… and it wasn’t Government it was the people.
What a pity! Did we just see a dogmatic liberal self-destruct?
I don’t have any sympathy. I really don’t. I tried to reason with him but reason wasn’t what he wanted, was it?
The last time I joined a liberal blog site I was called names and the next day my userid and password wouldn’t work anymore.
Mike, you have shown far more patience with Pragmatic than they showed me and I didn’t even extend my middle finger.
I called the “Democratic” Party the Democrat Party – that was it.
BTW, Pragmatic, only until 11/10 will your beloved Democrats rule and only until 11/12 will this President rule and he may be forced out sooner. How do ya like them apples?
My last post went poof! and self=destruct? HUH? Takes more than a couple of nasty remarks. Sorry to disappoint you.
Just wanted to let you know, I wanted to share my good fortune so I posted a link to your site. hope you don’t mind.
Desolation, could be because you’ve hit a a level beyond your Craigslist reading comprehension….
Fascinating commentary. ummmm May take me a nanosecond or two to digest such deep thoughts. LOL
UPDATE: where did his comment go??? Well, guess it’s a moot point, eh?
So Prag, was Craigslist buds one of your shared links? “Desolate” evidently masqueraded as spam quite well as he ended up in the garbage bin quite quickly. Then again, it’s an apt cyber handle considering his comment. All that vast wasteland between the ears….
Mike, while I can post.
Isn’t the objective of this site to get out the information posted? If you look over the postings you’ll see I was engaged with the moderates who did not disparage me. So Mission accomplished!
I do have a better understanding of the rights take on climate change and how they feel about the upcoming summit. Once again, Mission Accomplished!
I’d also like to mention that you haven’t made a convert and no matter how many times I’m wrongly accused of leaving, you are wrong. Still here. Jumping to conclusions is an internet constant.
C Ya
@Pragmatic: Once again a total lack of anything substantive.
You’ve had one or two interesting comments to make and the remaining 90% is crap.
You claim to have an understanding of the “rights [SIC]take” on this issue yet I haven’t seen you demonstrate that you even comprehend what this post is all about.
For the last time, do you have anything to say about this scandal in particular or climate change in general or are you simply looking to start a food fight?
Pat and Don
Thank you both for the detailed explinations of both your politcal postions and scientific postions. I appreciate it more than you know. Thank you also for pointing out the pitfalls one may encounter while I’m behind the DMZ.
As Mike has pointed out several times, sometime I just can’t help myself when it comes to my political leanings. Believe it or not I am open minded and that is why I am still reading and posting.
That being said, I want you to know my original post(s) were posted out of a pure ignorance of this site mission. Let it be said that if the insults come out of my mouth again, I will be fully aware of my surroundings. Not that that would stop me but would be more,,,,meaningful, yes that’s the word:) Until that time I will temper my words and comments.
I need to get up tom work so now I have to head to bed but will re=read your comments and post my thoughts tomorrow.
Once again. Thanks to those who stepped up and sent out information and answerd my questions!
He probably had to ask someone else for those two good points, Mike. Now that he’s out of borrowed ammo it has to go back to spewing hatred.
Sounds like it’s calling for backup after getting it’s butt kicked.
Mike,
Do you have to chime in and comment on every single post I make? Now you’re a spelling Nazi too? What exactly is your objective Mike? I mean if you can Kick/ban me, have at it, otherwise why don’t you keep your trap shut and “moderate” instead editorializing every single post I make?
You have mentioned I can’t help myself. How about you put yourself in check.
If you can’t take the explanations for my original postings as the truth, too Bad, so sad, get over it and cry me a river…. sound familiar?
Petty, petty, petty.
was that spelled correctly?
good nite
I think you’ve gotten under it’s skin, Mike.
Prag, I can spell a few words that describe you quite well. Hypocrite and projection.
As for your postings, they have been thoroughly debunked. YOU can’t handle the truth.
@Pragmatic: I’m not just moderating this post, but I am also a participant in the discussion. I also have a background in the global warming issue that goes back to the 1990’s when I worked for the Environmental Protection Agency in Washington.
So, if you ever do decide to come up with something substantive to add I’ll be all ears.