This according to 6:15 Pac Time in an update.
Too bad…..
Also press conference says female who shot Maj. Hasan went thru surgery and in stable condition. Add the official reports to comments for us all, if you please…
5 Nov
Fort Hood shooter still alive
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Thursday, November 5th, 2009 at 6:16 pm | 32 views
Pull the plug on this guy.
One of his colleagues knew how hateful he was, and yet did nothing?
I saw where he was being investigated by the feds over some pro jihadist posts six months ago, but had yet to confirm he made the posts? WTH!!!!?? They couldn’t get an answer in less time than that?
I’m glad he was brought down by a female First Responder and, that he will face military justice and not a PC civilian court. Of course, civilian courts in TX do carry out the death penalty. He will get the death penalty, no doubt about it.
I don’t understand why a Muslim can serve in any capacity in the US Military. Their religion would not allow them to kill a “brother” so why should we pay them to go to school, etc. And, their religion comes before any country so why did he enter the military?
Here’s hoping that the officer gets the medal of freedom!
Islamist, Mass murderer. Somewhere in the area is a mosque (and a bunch of assistants to murder) that should be raided (or bombed) before daylight. I’d prefer a C-5/7 and a MOAB.
He got 4 years of medical school and 2 years residency without paying a dime out of his pocket all the while drawing his pay. As one commentator on Fox reported, he paid back the military by killing 12+ people.
He never was deployed but had lawyers trying to get him out of being sent Over There. Probably trying to get out of a dishonorable discharge and/or having to repay for his education. He was “disturbed” hearing the reports of the men coming back from combat…Boo Friggin’ Hoo. He didn’t want to aid and abet killing Muslims…OMB, what a shock.
No Muslims in the US Military. Period.
Can we waterboard him now?
I cruised on over to the website Islamic Awakening — some of the muslimes are celebrating the ‘brave mujahid’…..
How many mooslums are in the Israeli military? — anyone have an idea? – hummm? — say for example — how many with officer’s ranks — like as HIGH as major? –
Kozane: You should have seen the celebration that the Muslims had in Athens Greece on 9/11. Some Jewlers in downttown Ermou were giving out champagne. Disgusting! They have no shame. I hope we are not going to have copy cats in the days to follow. Homeland security better keep America safe from attacks like this one.
Budvar-akbar: the ISRAELI Army has no enemy within! Others in the region are used to having traitors among themselves, it is the modum operandum of cowards and snakes who have no respect for life.
I’m assuming this crime will be processed in military rather than civilian courts?
@AnnMonterey:
@budvarakbar:
Both of you – knock off the anti-Muslim crap. Do either of you serve in the military? No? Then you’ve probably never served alongside Muslims. Well I have and they don’t deserve your slurs because they are busting their butts to protect America.
This guy at FT Hood was a nut. For fuck’s sake, stop confusing fanatics and lunatics with faith.
Back to you budvarakbar – how many Christian majors are there in the IDF?
@kozanne:
Don’t make that assumption. Besides, if you really want the death penalty, Texas is about as good as it gets for the prosecution and actual follow-through on the sentence.
That’s right, tfhr. I forgot about that.
“Both of you – knock off the anti-Muslim crap. Do either of you serve in the military? No? Then you’ve probably never served alongside Muslims. Well I have and they don’t deserve your slurs because they are busting their butts to protect America.
This guy at FT Hood was a nut. For fuck’s sake, stop confusing fanatics and lunatics with faith.”
How many more “nuts” do we have to deal with before it becomes ok to publicly speak about the fact that the religion is the problem?
We are talking about a religion founded by a pedophile and centered around the premise of either enslaving or killing the non-believer. In my eyes, this guy was a true follower of the religion.
The ones you served with were probably great guys and most likely would be an honor to serve with, but they aren’t following the full tenants of their religion. Because they dont, they are capable of being compatible with other freedom loving peoples of different faiths.
I didn’t know of any Muslims in the military, but that was over forty ears ago. I understand that there are many that are fighting for our country and I am bewildered like many of you.
After 9/11, I was visiting family on 11/11/01 in Calgary and I noticed a large group of Muslims gathered on a vacant lot across the road. While wondering whether I should ask for a weapon, a relative noticed my nervousness and told me to relax. They alerted the public by the newspaper that they planned to gather on vacant lots to sing O Canada on Armistice Day, all over town, in appreciation of their new home in Canada. On this bitter cold day, I was a little choked up as these people did a fair job of singing a difficult song.
Up to that point, I believed and thought the worst of the Muslim. Yet they are now serving our country with distinction.
A couple of thoughts on this matter, that apply to me as well.
He that knows little, often repeats it. proverb
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. Thomas Jefferson
per thfr: fanatic + lunitic = moslem major in US Army —- get off your PC horse –
thfr = tfhr — whatever
I’m glad this monster did not die from his wounds. I say patch him up and execute him. But not before we make him talk. I’d like to hear more about what he thought about Obama.
tfhr, while I may agree that a blanket assumption that all Muslim as fanatics is completely in error, I might also ask this of you. Can we stop shaking down nuns now to find jihadists who live in our midst? And most especially those with tell tale signs that are military members, and who may not have been investigated because it would be PC incorrect?
I think Curt mentioned the fact that Hasan had been under the eye of the Feds for about 6 months because of some of his blog postings.
And that is the thing, if Muslims don’t want to be generalized as fanatics or terrorists, then they must, to a person, speak out loudly and freely against this kind of act, as well as encourage all in the Ummah to do the same.
If Muslims want to be thought of as ‘good Muslims’, then they must speak up for what is good and against what is evil.
Already a Muslim leader in TX is talking about the fear of retaliation and that this act has nothing to do with Islam, but where is the part where he speaks for good and against evil?
I guess the next few days of spin/repeat by various news outlets and other groups will be interesting.
Obviously, Mike, the “hope and change” message didn’t get thru to Maj Hasan. Perhaps he thought Iraq would instantly be emptied of US presence, and that the Eunuch-in-chief would immediately withdraw from Afghanistan.
The foreign policy that Gibbs touts as being on the mend with the international world and our enemy is a fantasy that Hasan did not share… right along with his fellow Muslims on the Af/Pak and Iraq battlefields. So it’s obvious he saw Obama in no different light than he viewed Dubya.
I need to hear nothing from his lips. Only wish he was cut down before taking far more valuable lives before his own, inevitable demise.
Than again… in the back of my conspiratorial mind… I have to wonder if this man will be kept alive, or magically die in the hospital before talking. The first thing out of the FBI mouthpieces today was the immediate assurance this was *not* a terrorist attack. Such a quick denial… why? Who would benefit from a “terrorist attack” being labeled anything but a “terrorist attack”? ummmm…. lemme think…. don’t help…..
I don’t think tfhr was coming from a pc angle (as budvarakbar #17 suggests).
The majority of Muslims serving in our Armed Forces are not in danger of being radicalized and are important in this fight against the Islamist threat. Of course, “a blanket assumption that all Muslim as fanatics” can certainly drive a feeling of alienation and persecution that is real rather than imagined. We should be just as vigilant not to fall prey to religious bigotry just as we should be vigilant not to be afraid of national profiling, ethnic profiling, and religious profiling as part of identifying potential dangers.
There is indeed a problem that is Islam-related and Muslims have to come to grips with that simple fact.
@budvarakbar:
@chris:
There isn’t a PC bone in my body, budvarakbar, just a couple of decades of serving in the Army that taught me that people come from all over the world to live in America for all the promise it holds. The Army exists to protect those people and our Constitution. There is something in the Constitution about freedom of religion, no?
I know a Muslim USAF major and he is not a fanatic or a lunatic. His family came from India to pursue a better life and to practice their religion without fear of persecution. The shootings at FT Hood are the responsibility of one man, it would seem, not his religion. The act of one lunatic on FT Hood does not justify condemnation of an entire religion. You don’t have to drive far, in Texas terms, to get to Waco from FT Hood but does any rational person believe that David Koresh’s brand of Christianity was a true representation of the faith?
In 1996 a soldier shot 19 other soldiers at a PT formation on FT Bragg. He was not a Muslim.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/149260/
In 2005 a soldier at FT Campbell fired on fellow soldiers and is now in prison. He wishes he was in Guantanamo but he’s not Muslim.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-144755630/debary-soldier-gets-25.html
In 1993 a DA Civilian shot himself and four co-workers on FT Knox. He was not a Muslim. I mention that shooting also because I had left the post only a few days prior and had passed through that office while clearing.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-19/news/mn-47457_1_knox-clerk
That was one of those events that taught me a long time ago that there is no safe place when someone is both armed and insane. If blaming this on a religion makes you feel safer I think you’ll be disappointed. Each of the lunatics I listed above had their particular brand of motivation that led them to pull the trigger. Does knowing that they were not Muslims make it different to you? Why?
I’m just sick over the fact there were multiple chances to prevent this and nothing was done. In the case of his former “co-worker” he could have reported him, yet he didn’t. Why? Was it PC that stopped him?
Here’s my take on it:
Hasan did not want to be deployed. He had retained an attorney, but I think as the deployment date drew closer, the handwriting was on the wall and he was going to be deployed, like it or not.
No way would he kill a fellow Muslim. Jihad was a convenient out for him. Hubby said ‘why would he kill his own’, meaning fellow soldiers? I had to tell him that ‘his own’ were the muslims, not the soldiers serving along side him.
@MataHarley:
I deplore the kid glove treatment we give to various groups that claim the lofty mantle of “victimhood” when they are scrutinized for connections with terrorist organizations or their supporters.
Your nun comment reminded me of my mom – that’s if you know any nun’s that cuss and drink like sailors – and her recent TSA experience. My folks had been in Italy when my mom contracted pneumonia and landed in an Italian hospital for a few weeks. When she returned to the US, she was in a wheel chair and they still searched her before she could get on her connecting flight out of Dulles. She’s scary, I’ll be the first to admit it, but not because she’s in her seventies. Profiling isn’t a bad thing when you have limited resources to throw at a huge problem. Shaking down penguins or Japanese grandmothers isn’t going to deter the rabid Muslim shoe-bomber.
The Muslims that call America home could do themselves and the country a great service speaking out in condemnation radical fundamentalists that espouse violence. As Wordsmith already pointed out, there are Muslims serving in the military that bring special skills to the fight and without them our fight against al Qaeda and others would be that much more difficult. I’m not about to disparage the Muslims I’ve served alongside because of the senseless murders committed at FT Hood.
Sounds like your Mom and I would get along like gangbusters, tfhr. LOL I think what I find so danged frustrating about this is that, if the co-worker’s remarks about Hasan are true, and his Walter Reed records are correct, this is a man who should have long since been booted out of the military. And most certainly should not have been transferred to counsel our soldiers on the battlefield. Thus my remarks about this tiptoeing about profiling. He was a Muslim who, if the accounts are correct, sided with the enemy against the very military of which he was a member.
Naw… forget booted out. He should have been investigated for treason long before he was shipped to Fort Hood. And while the FBI wants to concentrate on just who this guy was, I would like to find the Pentagon bozos who ignored the obvious, and placed our soldiers in harms way just to not offend a Muslim officer. And I’d like to see that Pentagon member booted out… right after they hang Hasan from Obama’s nearest olive branch.
“The act of one lunatic on FT Hood does not justify condemnation of an entire religion.”
You are correct, but how about the long pattern of people killing specifically in the name of Islam without hardly any backlash from the so called “moderates”?
Since 9/11 there have been more than 14,000 Islamic terrorist attacks world wide, is that not enough for you to say it is a problem? In the last month, at least 909 people have died, in the last week, over 348 is that enough?
Do we need to have a nuke set of in Memphis in the name of Islam for you to think it is a problem?
No other members of any religion in the world actively participates in violence and murder as a way to further their religion, yet you dismiss them as “nuts”… Course that is what everyone did before 9/11 as well…
I dont have to condemn the religion, reading its texts will do that for you, why dont you try it. here is a good place to start (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm)
I find it interesting that you bring up Waco, a event that never had to happen. Koresh rode his bicycle by the federal officers multiple times without being arrested, instead they chose to use tanks to storm the complex and in my eyes directly caused the escalation of the situation that led to the deaths inside. His faith had nothing to do with the fact that he was wanted on multiple warrants and chose to resist with violence instead of being arrested though.
@chris:
Do we know that this guy carried out the act in the name of Allah? I’ve not heard that yet but to answer your question about how many acts are enough for me, I’ve always said that a state of war has existed since 1979 when Iranians stormed our embassy.
I was on my way to the Pentagon on 9-11. I’ve done a tour in Iraq and I’ve spent a fair amount of my time outside of the country working anti-terrorism and force protection issues for PACOM. I think I know the dangers. What’s more, I saw a lot of intel reports that would make your skin crawl if you had any idea how big this problem has become over the years.
I agree that Waco was avoidable but that doesn’t change my mind about Koresh. In fact, knowing that he was armed and a lunatic makes your point about grabbing him away from the compound just that much more appropriate.
I’m not going to sit here and be lectured about how evil one religion is compared to another. I’ll tell you that I think you’re wrong and such a pronouncement on your part leaves you with no practical approach to combat the threat from terrorist organizations and their sponsors. The people that act against America, it’s allies, and it’s interests are my focus. Unless your prescription is to destroy an entire religion, I suggest you stick to killing the radicals that take up arms against us and working to reduce their means to sustain the fight. Bombing mosques simply because they are mosques doesn’t help our cause.
By the way, why didn’t you answer my question? Each of the lunatics I listed above had their particular brand of motivation that led them to pull the trigger. Does knowing that they were not Muslims make it different to you? Why?
@chris:
Chris,
There has been backlash from “so-called” “moderates” and I’d say even “non-moderates”.
Re posts:
Is the Islamic world rejecting al-Qaeda theology, thanks to the War in Iraq?
Mata has a worthwhile related post as well, but I don’t have the link at the ready.
Also, consider how those Muslims who aren’t “devout” in the “radical” fundamentalist Islamist sense, but embrace modernity and reform (of the non-wahhabi variety) find their voices suppressed by the likes of PBS, because they don’t fit the mold of “true Muslims” that CAIR supposedly represents:
I agree that decent Muslims above all others should be at the forefront of this fight, if they want to be the ones to define their faith, rather than leaving it in the hands of the 7th century backward faithfuls and 20th century Qutbist re-inventors. The fact that so many Muslims have been slaughtered by their extremist brethren should say something about whether or not the Muslim majority approve of the violence of the radical fanatics.
Certainly the Muslim apologists and sympathizers are a problem. The anti-Americanism and perception propaganda of American foreign policy (not exclusive to Muslims) is a problem (when wed to Islamist fundamentalism, giving potential for radicalization).
Spouting anti-Islam rhetoric and lumping all practitioners of Islam into the same category doesn’t help build confidence amongst those who would be Muslim allies. It makes them feel persecuted. Calling all Muslims ragheads and being purposefully demeaning to their faith only gives CAIR (the Rainbow Push Coalition of Islam- they don’t speak for all Muslims) political ammo.
I think narrowing the focus to Islamic terrorists and marginalizing them from mainstream Muslims makes more sense. Widening the war and alienating Muslim allies who don’t want to be at war with us, doesn’t make sense to me.
Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan are in this fight. They’ve bled and died and suffered enormous losses. And we’re still saying, “Why aren’t Muslims standing up? Speaking out?”
Thanks for remembering, Word da man. My original scribblings about the Muslim change in tide towards jihad was back in Feb 2008 on my Sea2Sea blog. I referenced that same article in a Jan 2009 FA post after the official release of the NIC Global Trends report. Indeed, the Muslim world is slowly turning their back on the so-called jihad “freedom fighters”.
However Chris is also correct. That rejection is quiet… noted only in trends and subtle government reports that do not reach the bulk of the world. Their disdain and abhorrence of such mutilation of their more moderate and civil religion… you know, the same guys that tfhr served with?… needs to be more vocal and upfront. I’d ask the same of Christians denouncing their extremists, or environmentalists shunning the ELF terrorists.
Per Aye Chi’s link on another threadfrom the father of a soldier on the base:
A “all-American” guy (according to his cousin), born and raised in the USA, shouting something in Arabic as he shot soldiers being to a war that he vocally opposed? Arabic is not his native tongue if he’s American. And I doubt that while soldiers are being mowed down by a semi-auto, they are concentrating on specific translations and words.
But I find it a bit odd, tfhr, that you think we can pass this off as anything but religiously motivated, and related to a jihad mentality. You know, that “if it walks like a duck…” argument?
Can you say the same for any of the other lunatics you cited in your articles above? From what I see, they are one off loons. From what we can tell in this early stage, Maj. Hasan was of the same mind as an organized jihad mentality.
Oh yes… bear with me on any further responses… flying out of state tomorrow. Will pick up on the cyber conversation when I can.
Well waterboard his @$$ for info, and when hes useless pop a shot in the ol’ computer and put his lights out for treason.
Last i checked treason was still a death sentence.
Prolly end up with a full pardon by the one.
This is one traitor who is going to get what he deserves – I hope !!!!! What about the other traitor in the White House ?? How long will we have to put up with him and how bad will it get ???
@madeleine7
Well, i dont think “the other traitor” is a “traitor” as much as i think he is probably the dumbest self righteous/absorbed S.O.B ever to grace the White house’s halls.
@MataHarley:
Mata, I think his Islamic religious beliefs did play a part in this. But it doesn’t seem like a pure-bred homegrown jihadist type of incident to me (although I freely admit I only have speculation to go on here). What brought him to this breaking point seems to consist of a mixed recipe of a perception of persecution- both personal as well as ethnic/racial/religious, psychological weakness in handling stresses in life, fortified by anti-U.S. foreign policy beliefs/politics and Islamic identification, with sympathies toward the Jihad movement.
I just think this is a sort of hybrid of your typical mass murderer who snaps under whatever feelings of stress and societal persecution he’s feeling, and alignment with the jihadis, based on religious/ethnic/political identity. Not just purely ideological, based solely upon religion and political Islam.
I dunno….
@tfhr: I will agree on one of your premises: all Jihadists are nut cases. This was merely one. And don’t lecture me about what it is to be an American. If they are so bloody full of patriotism, I’d like to see some activities from the Muslim community at large as proof that they are Americans first. You will not see that because they are Muslims first. The “peaceful” Muslims are complicit if they don’t take active steps to out the radicals; if they don’t publicly separate them from the bigger community; if they are guilty by omission.
Take your PC crap and stuff it. I’m in no mood for jerks like you.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_go_ot/us_fort_hood_shoooting_classmate
WASHINGTON – A classmate of the Fort Hood shooting suspect says Maj. Nidal Hasan was an outspoken opponent of the U.S. war on terror and called it a “war against Islam.”
Dr. Val Finnell was a classmate of Hasan’s at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. Both attended a master’s in public health program in 2007 and 2008.
Finnell says he got to know Hasan in an environmental health class. At the end of the class, students gave presentations. Finnell says other classmates wrote on subjects such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Hasan’s topic was whether the war against terror was “a war against Islam.” Finnell described Hasan as a “vociferous opponent” of the terror war.
Finnell says Hasan told classmates he was “a Muslim first and an American second.”
******************************************************************************
Ok, Bottom line, this character did not belong in the US Army. He should have been separated and booted out after that statement. Period. The Army screwed up. Don’t hand me any Politically Correct BS on this either. He was a Commissioned Officer. He took an Oath.
Lets see how the Article 32 Investigation goes. I do hope that this is brought up in the process.
I think those around him were brow-beat by political correctness. And it should be a lesson learned for any more out there, like him.
I am all for ethnic, religious, and nationality profiling. And I see nothing racist or prejudiced in that at all. Above all else, is behavioral profiling; and when all these things converge to give off warning alarm bells, it is the height of idiocy to ignore the sign posts and do nothing, so as not to offend civil rights groups and be accused of bigotry.
A caller to the Michael Medved Show yesterday mentioned how he served alongside a Navy man who talked of how the only reason he was serving was because his imam told him to; that he didn’t want to be there in the military, but did so because he was told. I believe the caller also said the guy had anti-U.S. foreign policy views. Medved asked the caller if he had reported anything about the guy. The caller said he did, but since there’s no crime, there was nothing to be done.
Picked up from a post at NQ.
Bob McCarty writes:
Incredibly, it appears that Maj. Malik Nidal Hasan, the alleged shooter in the massacre that resulted in at least 12 dead and 31 wounded at Fort Hood [on November 5], served on the Homeland Security Policy Institute’s presidential transition task force between April 2008 and January 2009 when Barack Obama was inaugurated as the nation’s 44th president.
Read it all.
According to this,
The task force was not officially affiliated with the White House. It was a project of the Homeland Security Policy Institute, an independent thinktank housed at George Washington University, aimed at drafting policy recommendations for the incoming Obama administration. ”
http://alwaysonwatch2.blogspot.com/2009/11/major-malik-nidal-on-bhos-transition.html
Great, just great. Not.
Mata, have a safe trip. Perhaps you are going to DC to let our Representatives on Capitol Hill know how we feel about the healthcare bill!
Frankly, it’s time for PC to END…. to be replaced with a NEW concept…C.S.!!!! COMMON SENSE!!! Something that’s been severely LACKING for some time in America now… and, WE NEED IT BACK!! I’ve worked with and known Muslems too…. they were “european” muslems (Yugoslavia and Romanian’s) and definitely NOT wackjobs…. seems the middle eastern/far eastern ones are the more likely ones to go ballistic…. that said, what to do with THIS guy??? Treat him as a TRAITOR!! He took an oath to the US.. and broke it, then KILLED a truckload if innocent people!!
What would HANK do??? Video camera’s… firing squad. First dip ALL the bullets in pork, and load em up, while this cretin watches.. so he’ll DIE KNOWING he’s going to HELL according to his own beliefs….shoot him, then BURY him in a coffin filled with pig guts…. take film, add a commentary that from now on, ALL US military ammo is pork fat coated, so ALL shot and killed with it go to hell, no Virgins….no fun… then mail it to Al Jezeera and tell em to run THAT!! Any more terrorist bullshit, and we start bombing them, with PORK SLIME!! They can ALL go to hell that way!! No more Mr. Nice guy…. straighten up, or go to hell!!! and OPEC??? Barrel of oil is 80 bux??? So is a bushel of wheat!! enough already…..
So endeth the rant….maybe a bit over the top….but i’m sick of these pussies in Government letting this shit go on, just so we “don’t offend” someone!!!! Don’t like it here?? Get the Fork back where you came from!!!! Planes leave every 15 minutes!! GOOD BYE!!
One last question….a MILITARY base??? WE are in a “state of war” against terrorism??? Why in the HELL weren’t our boys ARMED TO THE TEETH!!!! they are the friggin ARMY!!! Sitting ducks!!! What kind of Military is OBAMA running?!?!?!?! DAMN!!
@AnnMonterey:
“If they are so bloody full of patriotism….”
Think about that for a moment.
Now, I’ve told you that I’ve served alongside Muslims in my time in the United States Army. These particular people put their lives on the line for you, me, our families, and their own families. What more do you want?
What else can a person do to convince you that that they’ve invested all they have to give in the defense of our country?
Remember that we are talking about two entirely different groups of people here: The people you know and the people you don’t know. If you are suspicious of someone you don’t know, I’d give you credit for being wary. If you are convinced that they are malevolent for being something you don’t know, then I say you’ve stepped off on a poorly formed assumption that ignores the fact that Americans of every stripe make this country work and within that vast collection of individuals there are Muslim Americans that are serving our country honorably.
During WWII Japanese Americans bore the brunt of much hatred following Pearl Harbor. I can understand that and I also do not believe FDR was entirely wrong for taking the step to incarcerate so many of them. Had the means been available to be more selective in those days, I suppose they would have done so but there was a war to be fought and political sensitivities don’t match up with security threats in my book.
“…jerks like [me].” Well, AnnMonterey, I’ve been called much worse. I’ve even had people try to tell me not to deploy because they thought that the war was wrong. When you raise your hand and take the oath, you don’t get to make that decision anymore. Regardless of that, I went to Iraq because I wanted to help. Not bragging but I did help and by that I mean I helped kill al Qaeda terrorists in al Anbar. If you find my defense of those Americans serving in our military that worship differently that you to be too much for you to stomach, then satisfy yourself with whatever insults you think will help. I really don’t care. I prefer to target those that would do us harm and not waste time, effort, and ammunition on those that don’t and find no value in maligning those that do serve honorably.
A little search for info on the “nisei” will shed some light…. these guys went GONZO to prove their worth and loyalty to the U.S. !!!! Amazing stuff…. maybe we need to try and set up a group like this again ( for islamic soldiers)…. might just start something!! All “fires” need a “spark” to take off!!!! couldn’t hurt….
Now if you’re thinking “how could this guy say this after his rant above”?? it’s really simple….. If you”re good… we treat you good….. or you’re BAD.. you get what you get!! I hold this belief for EVERYONE!! Foreign AND Domestic!! LOL!!!! Well, except for politicians, Judges and cops etc… you took a SWORN OATH… so in MY mind, if they go bad….they get TWICE the level of “punishment” that “john Doe” on the street might get…. because they SWORE to you and me, to be “above” it all, AND us!!
Does that make any sense to you??
@Hankster58:
You’re right about political correctness. It is dangerous and damaging no matter where you find it. I once heard political correctness described as “New Age Stalinism” and I think those three words sum it up better than any paragraph I could write.
As for “armed to the teeth”, I can tell you that carrying a weapon at all times is a terrific burden. What do I mean by that? Soldiers are accountable for any weapon and any ammunition issued with it. Let one soldier on FT Hood lose accountability for a weapon and the CG could very well lock down the post until the weapon is recovered. FT Hood is massive and such a recovery effort would obstruct operations and paralyze the post. If you’re going to issue weapons, then you should be issuing body armor too. Where does it stop? I’ve lived in a war zone and you can get used to wearing your kevlar and body armor for great lengths of time and you can get used to hauling a weapon and basic load around but you’re primary focus is the job, so 24-7, that really is just a part of what you do. There is no family there. You won’t have to pile into your POV each morning to make it to a PT formation with full battle rattle on or grab your M4 to talk a walk down to the latrine. Coming home to a CONUS assignment gives a soldier a chance to recover from months and months of living right on or near the edge. That this heinous act occurred on our soil just makes it all the worse.
Taking this specific act into consideration, what might have happened if several dozen soldiers had tried to engage their attacker at once in a crowded room? It also took several hours for the authorities to determine if there was more than one shooter or not. Considering how bad the carnage was with just one person spraying rounds, how much worse might it have been if friendly fire casualties had been added as one soldier or group of soldiers mistook one another for the attacker(s)? Who would the arriving police engage first?
This event has evoked strong emotions as people register their disgust and anger. The Army does not benefit from decisions made in that vein. As much as I dislike Barack Obama, the decision to secure weapons in unit arms rooms has been the practice that has worked for the Army for decades and is not the President’s call, nor should it be.
May have worked for decades, but TODAY, with the “screen door” border security we have…. locking down weapons at a possible terrorist target is stupid in my opinion, for what it’s worth!! AS to packing, I have a CCW and carrying my 9 is no problem, so I don’t see how it could be such a hardship for ‘G.I. Joe!!!! Besides, I was taught the “handgun” is what you use to protect yourself until you can GET to the “big stuff” .. main combat weapon…. such as until you can get to the armory etc… maybe some feel the need to be cautious… but i’ll bet you this weeks pay, those twelve DEAD GUYS wish they had been armed, up until the end!!! 12 died…. you think trained fighting men shooting at a psycho would have been WORSE casualty wise??? I doubt it personally…. but that’s just me.
@MataHarley:
I’ll focus on this line from your comment:
“From what we can tell in this early stage, Maj. Hasan was of the same mind as an organized jihad mentality.”
It is still early and too soon to draw conclusions but Hasan’s actions in and of themselves did not require organization. His anger and hatred were probably all the inspiration he required but at the same time, I would not be surprised if he sought justification in religion and politics.
We saw the murderer at VA Tech kill more than thirty students because he felt that he had somehow been forced to go on his bloody spree. If he had been Muslim, none of us would have been surprised to learn that he had yelled “Allah Akbar”. My contention is that the insanity that drives these individuals to commit horrendous acts of violence precedes all else but that they will inevitably pass the blame and attempt to justify their crimes.
We may learn that there was an effort on Hasan’s part to communicate with others sharing his views and designs for bloodshed. If that proves to be the case, then this becomes an act of terrorism but until then, I see it along the same lines as Wordsmith’s “hybrid”.
I hope you had a safe trip and I look forward to hearing your response.
Can a former officer tell me whether it is accepted for a field grade officer to make incendiary and treasonous remarks in front of many witnesses without arrest and court martial?
Is it still illegal for an enlisted man to make such remarks?
The people who ignored these remarks or the party that excused these remarks are just as guilty of murder as the shooter. Despite the spin that we are going to hear from the White House Ditherers.
@Hankster58:
There isn’t even a screen on that door – it’s nearly wide open as far as I’m concerned and that’s a disgrace. But Hasan was born in America, so let’s consider the border a separate issue for this discussion.
Again, I’m speaking from personal experience with soldiers and weapons. Your idea of arming everyone 24-7 is impractical and would result in large numbers of deaths and injuries every year. Accidental discharges happen but multiply that by about 500,000 and you begin to get the picture.
It is a frustrating situation and I wish there was a way we could be sure that something like this could never happen again but I don’t think that’s going to be possible, even if we did arm everyone in uniform at each and every CONUS assignment for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the recruiter at the local shopping center. I have no way of knowing if there is another Hasan out there but quite frankly I wouldn’t want to have an armorer hand him an M4 and basic load to find out.
I know he was “born here”… my point was that ANYONE else could come in…. this dude was a local, but with no “walls, who or how many MAY come next?? AS to your worry about more ND’s and accidents etc…. I expected more proficiency from our boys…. maybe I expect too much. or you too little???? I have never had an ND myself… and if they keep thier duty weapons holstered like you are SUPPOSED to unless “duty calls”….. where would this rash of accidents come from??? Not picking on you, BUT your angle plays right into the lefty take…. “keep expectations low” …. I’m from the Conservative side of “lets strive for a HIGHER level of competence”!!! What say you??
The difference between a violent “christian extremist” and a violent jihadist, is the “christian extremist” kills in spite of the teachings of Jesus, and the jihadist kills because he is following the way of mohammad and the teachings of the koran. All those ‘moderate muslims’ out there who supposedly have no intention on harming non-muslims are just a koran lesson away from turning jihadist. I think muslims have no place in the US military. Its like the fox guarding the hen house.
@Robert Kelly:
Well if you believe Muslims have no business in the US military, then do you also believe they have no “business” living in the United States?
@Hankster58:
Have you ever heard any commanders call for arming troops in CONUS 24-7? I defer to them and from my own experience as a commander. If threat warnings warrant elevated Force Protection Conditions then commanders can make that call. If a facility is able to mount a Quick Reaction Force, then that might be a worthwhile consideration, but the last time I checked, distributing weapons and ammunition to every soldier, Marine, sailor and airmen is not even on the list of actions directed at FPCON Delta.
I don’t have low expectations, as you may be suggesting, but rather a breadth of experience dealing with 18 year olds and automatic weapons that you might not have yourself. Do you have any idea how many sheets of dry wall a 5.56 round can run through before it even starts to slow down? While I’m all for getting the most training possible to every troop, there is a limit to what can be accomplished on the largest of scales that you recommend.
@Skookum:
Until I see some corroboration of what Hasan was supposed to have said in the past, it would be hard to judge the extent to which he crossed the line with words. Given his actions at FT Hood, I don’t think anything that will be attributed to him at this point will be surprising, only the list of those who will have claimed to have heard it. My concern is that his comments were never relayed up the chain of command and never properly addressed. If the allegations regarding his views we’ve heard about over the past few days are true and his supervisors were aware of the remarks attributed to Hasan, then the Army bears full responsibility for not addressing the issue.
Charging someone with treason for comments is going to be just about impossible. I’m not a JAG guy but maybe sedition would have been a better avenue but without worrying about the legal distinctions, if Hasan’s words had been brought to my attention, I would have called him in and asked him point blank. Depending on what he said, I would have initiated an investigation from my level or referred it up the chain. I also would have followed through. To be honest, I would have been pursuing this as a SAEDA issue.
Subversion and Espionage Directed Against the Army (SAEDA) is a Department of the Army program devised to detect and deter acts of espionage and terrorism directed against the Army.
http://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar381-12.pdf
I’m probably not well enough informed to know if SAEDA gets much attention at a place like Walter Reed. I would be surprised if it did as my experience with military medical personnel has demonstrated to me that most are not frequent players in venues where SAEDA is common parlance.
I suspect that in the coming days, weeks, and months, more will be learned about Hasan’s history in the Army and his actions in and out of uniform. It will be important to learn who he was talking to both inside and outside the Army. It will be imperative to draw useful lessons from this tragedy to insure that it does not happen again if it could have been prevented. I’ve heard much speculation about a bad OER that Hasan was said to have received while at Walter Reed. That happens but while such a thing can be a career killer, there is no reasonable inference that would suggest that such a thing would trigger a murder spree.
Now for some personal bias: Not all that far from Walter Reed is FT Detrick. You might not have heard about it because it has a pretty quiet mission but it became very well known after an Army scientist was discovered to have initiated the post 9-11 anthrax attacks out of frustration and anger that his particular program was not getting the attention that he thought it deserved. People died and the potential for a massive loss of life on an unimaginable scale was at his finger tips. Was his an act of terrorism in the service of al Qaeda or the expression of the insanity that eventually drove him to take his own life as well? No al Qaeda or Jihadi link was ever uncovered but his actions were no less harmful. My belief is that he was insane and the anger that he could not control compelled him to kill innocent people in the pursuit of some imagined grievance. Hasan may not be that much different but rather than focusing on his religion, I’m more interested in who he has been talking to about his “beliefs”.
I am not informed on the subject of the scrutiny given to personnel working such missions at FT Detrick like the one that led to the anthrax attack, but I would suggest that we’ve given a pass to many in our medical services for too long when it comes to background checks. Hasan’s ORB does show a secret clearance, but that is to be expected of a field grade officer, even in medical services. It’s pretty standard stuff. I really think we do not go far enough on many of the NACLC background checks that are performed but even if he had been held to greater scrutiny during the performance of that check, it is essential to inform his chain of command of erratic behavior and any comments consistent with those ascribed to Hasan by some of the people that have been interviewed following the shootings.
Despite what happened on 9-11, there are still too many people that find it possible to disregard the threat directed at the United States. I fully believe that we have been at war since November 1979′s embassy takeover in Iran. We have a bad habit of accepting and living with threats. The challenge is to maintain vigilance, target and destroy the threat, and work toward putting an end to the influences that sustain that threat, all without destroying our own way of life.
oops – looks like I’ve got two more stuck in the spam filter. Probably for wordiness.
Its a no brainer, muslims join the military to learn how to fight, they use the training we give them freely to kill us, why havent we learned this ?
If I may joint in, tfhr and Robert Kelly, I will answer that I think muzlims have no right to live in the United States because they are a part of an organization whose stated intent is world domination. This means that they are a part of an effort to overthrow the government of the United States. We cannot continue to allow such people to live among us. We need to criminalize izlam, just like we once did the communist party.
You and I both probably know some very nice, calm, good citizen muzlims. That is really irrelevant, because they are still committed to a political-religious philosophy of world domination. Today they seem like nice folks, but they always do, until the day they turn on you.
A number of comments above have noted that the “moderate muzlims” need to get out in front on this and disavow violence, condemn actions such as what has happened at Ft. Hood, etc. Has anyone notice that this rarely, if ever, happens? If it does, it is always a very tepid statement. Do you know why? They do not really oppose it at all. They support it. How can they condemn it when it is exactly what izlam says they must all be doing? It is not because they are embarrassed in front of you and me that they don’t disavow it. It is because of the problems such a disavowal would cause them in their own communities, with their children, etc. The most they can possibly do is silence which is approval.
Well if you believe Muslims have no business in the US military, then do you also believe they have no “business” living in the United States?
Everyone should own one. That should cut down on their propagation.
still stuck in the spam filter – help please.
@Red 73:
So you’re a big proponent of owning other people? I’m surprised to see something like that said here in these threads.
tfhr, thank you for addressing this for me. I am bewildered and mad like many of the readers, with patience we will learn the facts. I am suspicious of this PC business of Mao, if his concept has some culpability in the tragedy, maybe it will begin to be discredited with the Liberal Socialists who envelop us with its nonsense.
On the question of weapons: I have never been to Israel, but in the photos of off duty army personnel in town, they are never without a rifle and as many of us know, a rifle without ammo is only useful in the up close and personal range. I mean to say, they are loaded and ready.
Yes, I would love to see an islam-free USA. I did not have a problem with them, until I learned about islam. I agree with DR. D in #58.
@Dr.D#58:
Define “they”. Because your sentiments are rooted more in educated bigotry, telling the “moderates (an imperfect term)” what they believe, or should believe based upon your reading of the Koran, rather than allowing them to define who they are and what they believe, based upon their reading the koran. It’s whacked. You’re in denial that there are any good, peaceful Muslims, because your prejudiced brain has already condemned and defined them, lumping them in with the fundamentalists and extremists.
With enough folks like you who insist Islam is the enemy and its practitioners are “out to get you, because the Koran demands it of them”, “moderates” don’t need any koran to push them over the edge into the enemy camp: They have YOU to do that for them.
There is no excuse for the violent murders that Hasan is responsible for. However, if there is even a whittle of truth in reports that he felt some disaffection by experiencing anti-Islam bigotry, then you and those like you are part of the problem as much as the pc crowd of apologists are.
Muslim groups have been condemning Maj. Hasan’s mass murder. You either aren’t paying attention, or choose to willfully ignore and dismiss. What bothers me, is when they also go on to disassociate or disown any religious influence in Hasan’s act; absolving Islam of any possibility of contributing to Hasan’s decision to go on a killing spree. They do this because they fear a backlash- not because “they support it”, as you say. They fear persecution. When I see comments like yours, it gives me pause to think that maybe they have a leg to stand on, in their concern. One Muslim group leader on the news mentioned about hate-filled comments on the internet in wake of the Thursday killings. I guess he need look no further than some of the comments expressed in this thread.
Actually, FA’s comments are tame in comparison to some of the vitriolic anti-Islam hatred being spewed out there.
Sorry. I call BS. Utter garbage.
I also think it is ridiculous for any muslim to claim to not believe in violent jihad against the infidel. That is like someone claiming to be Christian, and not believing in Jesus.
@Wordsmith: I call BS on you. If you study the koran you will know that those “muslims groups” who denounce violent jihad can lie in accordance with the koran and the blessing of mohammad. It does not matter to me that they condemn the violence against innocence, because they do not see non-muslims as innocent. I had no “anti-muslim bigotry” until 9-11. That is when I found out that they are told to convert me, turn me into a dhimmi, or fight me until I am dead. It is the muslims who are bigoted against non-muslims and if you cant see this, you are blind. But you want to condemn those that point out the truth about islam. You say we should not say anything bad about islam because we might cause one of them to go jihad. You don’t seem to realize that they will go jihad anyways. Its in their DNA, its in their koran.
@Dr.D:
@Robert Kelly:
@Red 73:
People used to say things like that about Catholics. There were those who held that JFK would put the interests of the Pope ahead of the United States. Which one of you wants to ride your racist tangent off the rails and attack the Joooos next?
There are over a billion Muslims in the world and that population is rising. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the United States and that population is rising too. Now if every Muslim in America shared the same beliefs as our own home grown lunatic, MAJ Hasan, we would be seeing similar actions across the United States on a regular basis, don’t you think?
If your plan to protect the United States boils down to “kill ‘em all”, then you don’t have a plan. You have no idea what to do and can only manage your anger and frustration over the murders at FT Hood by spewing hatred. It’s an embarrassing waste of time and does nothing to protect America.
tfhr…. you said….
“” I don’t have low expectations, as you may be suggesting, but rather a breadth of experience dealing with 18 year olds and automatic weapons that you might not have yourself. Do you have any idea how many sheets of dry wall a 5.56 round can run through before it even starts to slow down?”"
>>Answer is, YEP!! Sure do…… not as many as the G3 i used to own, (7.62X51=fun!) but dangerous is dangerous, and you are right.
HOWEVER, if you read what i WROTE…. words like “handgun”.. “holster”…”9mm”….
???? how did you interpret THOSE words into full auto M-16″S?????
I also said….
“”Besides, I was taught the “handgun” is what you use to protect yourself until you can GET to the “big stuff” .. main combat weapon…. such as until you can get to the armory etc…”"
as you can plainly see by what I WROTE… I never intended in my statements for a mass of full auto armed guys to be running amok!!!! Further, if your belief is these guys are NOT “safe” enough to pack a sidearm…. we’ve got bigger problems!!
As to the “muslem issue”…. this is a problem that won’t have a nice, tidy P.C. ending……. maybe they should NOT be allowed into military service. If serving and following orders runs counter to their “beliefs”….. do we take the chance on our soldiers getting hurt or KILLED??? we just tried this experiment…. and the results are not too good……
Let them serve in areas that do not cause a religious conflict?? Could be, but how do you explain John Doe getting kia while achmed got to stay on base and fuel trucks “because to serve on the line might “upset” him??? Where does the line get drawn???? Got no sure answers.. just a lot of questions….
As to the “population of muslems rising”…. and giving that a fixed percent of that “rise” wants to destroy us and our way of life/beliefs….. one would have to be a BRAIN DEAD FOOL to not at least CONSIDER the dangers in this…… fore warned is fore-armed……
those who wish to stay asleep….. well last time we did that… Pearl Harbor went up in flames…. food for thought….. um, nope that’s not quite right…. the Trade Center Towers went down in flames…..
So?? What DO we do????
Hey Folks…
*We wait for the Article 32 Investigation to run it’s course
*We let the UCMJ proceedings make a Lawful, Judicial determination based on factual evidence
*Based on that outcome, in this case, Justice will be served
The Army as well as the rest of the Services must be put on notice that Individuals exhibiting behaviors that are in violation of SAEDA, the UCMJ or Standards of Conduct that make them Unfit for Service or are in violation of the Oaths they took to enter the Service be subject to Discharge under Less than Honorable Conditions. Period.
The time for Political Correctness or Tolerance of violation of Standards is Over. Military Service needs to be above Politics if Our Nation is to be Defended against All Enemies Foreign or Domestic. The MAJ should have been challenged earlier on on his Conduct, his Actions and Separated from Service. The Army screwed up big time. This is a Legal Process, not an Emotional one. I have always been troubled with “unofficial quotas” imposed by Political Correctness regarding Promotions, Assignments and Retention. Race, Religion or Gender should have no part in any selection processes in the Military. Let Service Members be Promoted, Retained or Assigned on Merit, not abstract statistical notions. National Security need not be undermined or placed at risk by quotas.
Allow me to remind you all that despite passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, Pres. Truman, by Order, Desegregated the Military in 1948. Before passage in the 60′s of the Civil Rights Act. Things got further complicated later with the Military equivalent of Affirmative Action. It was in my mind not necessary to take that additional step as both the UCMJ and the US Constitution and Regulations had it ALL covered legally. There is no place for Politics in the Armed Forces or dissent outside the Standards for Conduct or Discipline. Discrimination or Disloyal Dissent that falls outside those bounds are Violations, Period.
In this case, Civil Authorities, the US DOJ or any outside Agencies need to stay the hell out of this and allow the UCMJ to function. The folks at Walter Reed were neglectfully outside the Standards in not dealing with the MAJ. Now it will be done as a result of Their Failure and with the great tragic human cost of that Failure on Their Shoulders. Any crap from CAIR or Congress Members concerned with the Legalities at this point needs to be disregarded. The UCMJ covers it. The UCMJ has an automatic review of Findings or as Civil Law calls it, Appeals.
It is very sad and tragic that AMEDD Failed the Army in not preventing this incident early on. Now, lets allow the UCMJ to function without outside influence or prejudice and lets have some of You FA Posters keep Your emotions in check.
I was an Enlisted Soldier that was OCS Commissioned, have two Post Graduate Degrees and succeeded despite being 1/4 Sioux Indian and a hick from the wilds of Montana. I retired as a Field Grade Officer on Merit, not Quotas. I have served in three wars in Combat Arms and served in both Command and Staff levels. There is no place in the Military for the KKK or Radical Islam folks. There is no place in the Military for what I call Hyphenated Americans or special interest groups. If Your Loyalties lie elsewhere, You do not Belong in My Army. Period. Your religion is not My Business unless it is subversive or requires human sacrifice at the full moon or anything else prohibited by Law.
Having followed the posts here, I felt it necessary to step up and comment on this thread. The Army held me to a higher standard than the Civilian world ever did. Lets get above the emotional nonsense please.
@tfhr: I never said “kill them all”, but their ‘religion’ tells them to convert, or fight me until I am dead. You are trying to equate Catholicism and Judaism with islam and there is no comparison. Where in the bible does it command Christians to kill the non-believers? Where in the Judaism does it command this? Any religion that can tolerate others is OK with me , but islam, by its daily deeds, shows me that it cannot tolerate non-believers. Because of this I will fight against islam until the day I die. I WILL NOT SUBMIT!!!!
@Hankster58:
The US Army does not issue M9s to the majority of it’s personnel. The primary weapon is a rifle. Senior NCOs and officers are the personnel most likely to have been issued a pistol. That’s how it works. Apologies for implying that you did not understand this point.
@Robert Kelly:
No, I am not equating religions – just the hatred that has been misdirected against them over the ages. We have to be smart enough to recognize the actual threat within a huge demographic. Our resources are limited and must be focused where they will do the most good to counter extremists.
@Old Trooper:
Amen.
@Robert Kelly #66:
The concept of taqqiya is primarily a Shia tradition, and endorsed under 3 circumstances. But don’t let that stop you from lumping all Muslims together under your interpretation of their faith, based upon your fundamentalist and selective reading from the Koran (same as what the reformers did, whose writings inspired modern jihadis).
Oooookay….when Muhammad Ali finally goes jihad on us, I’ll be the first to credit you with telling me so.
@Wordsmith: Yes, and shia islam constitutes 85% of the muslim world population. I don’t believe that every muslim will eventually commit violent jihad, but their faith does dictate that jihad is a central duty of all muslims. This is not an extremist view, this is mainstream islamic jurisprudence. I don’t think it is in the best interest of the US or any freedom loving people to allow muslims to infiltrate and destroy our way of life, by using our own fear of being labeled a racist or bigot. As you should know, when the muslim population grows in any country, so does the violence against non-muslims. I for one do not want to wait until their number are great enough to do damage that would make 9-11 pale in comparison. There is no way to tell if a muslim is devote enough to take his beliefs that extra step towards violent jihad. The only remedy is to remove muslims from our society, as best we can, so we can reduce our exposure to the jihadists. To allow them to serve in our military, when they are at war with us, will only invite more attacks like at Fort Hood. What is your solution to combat the rise of violent jihad in the US? Condemning the attacks after the fact, while ignoring the root cause will not stop future attacks. And as for the muslims who claim to not support violent jihad, why would they claim to be muslims at all if they do not support its central duty, to spread islam, through ANY means? But what does it really matter what I think, I am just a bigot who hates these peaceful people who have never done anything to non-muslims….Right.
@Wordsmith: It was not the ‘reformers’ who inspired modern jihadists, it was the fact that through petroleum revenues, the jihadist are now capable of renewing the fight against the non-believers. The jihadists today do not twist the koran, they are getting back to the ‘true words of allah’. Its not my interpretation, it is theirs, and that is why I am opposed to islam.
Sorry, Wordsmith, but I think you are simply in denial. Look at the facts.
Every muzlim subscribes to the koran, and the koran contains many, many injunctions for muzlims to kill non-muzlims and to conquer the world for izlam. You might say, “well, that is just an old book, written a long time ago, and the muzlims of today do not follow that” but the facts do not support that.
Someone, I think it was the president, or high muckitmuck of Turkey, who said just a few years ago, something to the effect that there is no fundamentalist izlam, no moderate izlam, etc. there is just izlam. He was telling us something: Muzlims may act differently in different circumstances, but they are all fundamentally exactly alike, they all believe exactly the same thing, namely the words of the koran.
Look at Europe, particularly France, England, and Sweden. There muzlims are claiming large swaths of territory as muzlim only territory, off limits to non-muzlims. They are saying that once they have “conquered” these places, they belong to izlam forever, and non-muzlims are no longer welcome there. They preach violence in their mosques, the threaten violent demonstrations if someone such as Geert Wilders simply comes to speak in Parliament, they carry signs saying things like “death to freedom”, “sharia will rule the UK”, etc. They harass and jeer returning troops coming back from Afghanistan. In Sweden, they call all Swedish women whores, and rape them at will. They justify this because the are “infidels” and have it coming as they see it. They rob Swedes on the street simply for the fun of it and brag about this. In France, they capture, imprision and torture a jewish man, simply for the fun it, before eventually murding him about 12 days later, all of the glory of allah. These are just a few, easily documentable specifics; there are countless more examples.
Look at how muzlims around the world reacted to the publication of the mohammed cartoons. They burned buildings and rioted all over the world. Even today, book publishers are self-censoring as a result of this.
It is delusional to ignore the warning given when someone tells you that he intends to force you to convert or be killed. This is the warning they have given us, and they have given it repeatedly.
Just how long do you think we can afford to indulge in this game of pretend, saying, “oh, they are really just like us” when they tell us repeatedly that they are not? This snake is going to bite us, and we are going to wake up dead. We will have no one to blame but our foolish selves for that! This is willful blindness.
As long as muzlims are small in numbers in an area, they keep a fairly low profile, they play by the rules, and they demand everything they can get from the majority by using the majority’s own rules. When they get stronger, they make more and more demands, such as special schools, special privileges, exemptions, etc. At some point, they begin to dominate the system and all havoc breaks loose. It has happened elsewhere time and again. Do we have to have it happen to us, or can we learn from the misfortune of others? Those who say it cannot happen to us simply cannot learn.
Hang the man. Not with the carefully calibrated rope length and trapdoor drop…rather the old fashioned way…turn him off and let him dangle.
Glad You brought it up Bob. I was waiting for a post like yours or even more morbid and ridiculous.
Here Ya go:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/us-military-death-penalty
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3A3GWwo6ykUw8J%3Afas.org%2Firp%2Fdoddir%2Farmy%2Fr190_55.pdf+military+execution&hl=en&gl=us
As of 17 Jan, 2006 Lethal Injection is the only approved Federal method.
**********************************************************************
Number of Executions 135 people have been executed by the Army since 1916 (Source: National Law Journal, 4/5/99)
Date of last military execution On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder. (R. Serrano, “Last Soldier to Die at Levenworth Hanged in an April Storm,” Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
Minimum Age to Receive the Death Penalty 18 years
Method of Execution Lethal Injection
Death Row Location U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
United States Military Death Row Roster and sentencing rate Total: 9 (as of 1/1/2009)
Names:
1. Kenneth Parker (B)
2. [Wade L. Walker] (B)
3. [Jessie Quintanilla] (A)
4. [James T. Murphy] (B)
5. Ronald Gray (B)
6. Dwight J. Loving (B)
7. [William Kreutzer] (W)
8. Asan Akbar (B)
9. Andrew Witt (W)
Race:
Black – 6
White – 2
Asian – 1
Gender:
Male – 9
Names in brackets awaiting re-trial, re-sentencing, or where court ordered reversal is not yet final. (Source: NAACP Legal Defense Fund; updates by DPIC).
Under the current death penalty system (adopted in January 1984), there have been 47 capital courts-martial resulting in 15 adjudged death sentences, for a 31.9% prosecution “success” rate. (Federal Death Penalty Resource Counsel, March 2008).
Date the Death Penalty Was Reenacted after Furman In 1983, the Armed Forces Court of Appeals held in U.S. v. Matthews, 16 M.J. 354, that military capital sentencing procedures were unconstitutional for failing to require a finding of individualized aggravating circumstances. In 1984, the death penalty was reinstated when President Ronald Reagan signed an executive order adopting detailed rules for capital courts-martial. Among the rules was a list of 11 aggravating factors that qualify defendants for death sentences.
Life Without Parole
A recent amendment to the Uniform Code of Military Justice offers a new alternative to the death penalty. For crimes that occurred on or after November 17, 1997, a sentence of life without the possibility of parole is now possible. Prior to this legislation, those servicemembers serving a life sentence would be eligible for parole after serving 10 years.
Clemency Process
The President has the power to commute a death sentence and no servicemember can be executed unless the President personally confirms the death penalty.
Capital Offenses
The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides the death penalty as a
possible punishment for 15 offenses (10 USC Sections 886-934), many of which must occur during a time of war. All 9 men on the military’s death row were convicted of premeditated murder or felony murder.
Who Decides Sentence
In a military capital case, the convening authority — a high ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to a court martial — decides if the death penalty will be sought. Once decided, the convening authority picks those servicemembers who will serve as panel members/jurors. One requirement for the panel is that if the accused so chooses, at least 1/3 of the panel must consist of enlisted personnel.
The panel must consist of 12 members. (Rules for Courts-Martial 501(a)).
************************************************************************
I’m glad we got the Details posted and hopefully We can move along now.
The link to the method is the second link.
I had an Ranger School Instructor tell me quite a few years back that the cure for Ignorance is Information. The cure for Stupid is an untimely Death. Here is Your Info Bud.
*Due to the length of the list of possible Charges for MAJ Hasan, his Article 32 Investigation will take a LOT of Time.
*The Selection of the Board of Officers for trial will take some time.
*The Court Martial Proceedings will take a LOT of time due to the seriousness of the Offenses. This is a Capital Crime.
*The review of Findings by another Board of SJA Officers will take a LOT of Time.
We could very easily see Two Presidential Elections before an Execution Order is presented to the President for approval. So don’t hold your breath on an Execution any time soon.
I am very familiar with the UCMJ. At Ft. Bragg a long time ago, one of my Soldiers would not accept an SJA Officer for defense on a Court Martial. By Regulation a Soldier can select any Commissioned Officer for Defense Counsel. He did not trust just any Officer. He had deployed with my Team to the Philippines on a counter terror mission in the 80s. He picked me. I was not flattered by his choice but did the necessary homework. I ‘schooled up’ and he was acquitted.
Absolutely the worst 10 months I spent in the Army.
Mad Capn Bob, be Judge Roy Bean in your fantasies but please don’t get the idea that it works that way in the real world. It quite honestly doesn’t Bud.
Here’s an interesting link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc
Although I do believe in God, and the commentator does not, I stand for his right to his own belief…as per our constitution. And, btw, he is correct in all his comments.
tfhr said……
“@Hankster58:
The US Army does not issue M9s to the majority of it’s personnel. The primary weapon is a rifle. Senior NCOs and officers are the personnel most likely to have been issued a pistol. That’s how it works. Apologies for implying that you did not understand this point.”
tfhr…. first off, we’re cool!! No problem… i in fact DID forget that basically it’s sgts (sometimes, under certain circumstances) and UP that get sidearms issued……. so you were correct there. MY point is tho, that this is NOT 1950 anymore!!! The “old way” of doing things doesn’t seem to fly well in almost 2010! The whole WORLD is different, even since I was a kid! (51 now)… maybe its HIGH TIME we “broadened” the scope of just who IS issued sidearms now!!
Obama, you listening?? Need to help the economy and make a few jobs??? Call up COLT, (the italians don’t need our bucks now, we NEED EM HERE!) and order up a truckload of 1911a1′s in 9mm (45 is better, but there’s that NATO thing) and issue them!! More safety, a bigger deterant, and jobs created! WOW! knocked off 3 things at once!
Just a thought…..
not so old saying goes….. “You may be anti gun…. You may be anti “religion”…. but when the SHTF…. you can be sure of two things,,,,, you’ll WISH you HAD a gun, and you’ll PRAY TO GOD someone who HAS one shows up in time!!”
@Hankster58:
Something else for you to consider before you start issuing weapons in CONUS:
The suicide rate is still a problem and so are domestic disputes in military families. That’s life in the military today. It’s the job, it’s the demographic, you can take your choice but I can tell you that you’re going to lose a lot along the way to the showdown that may never come.
As for your choice on side arm calibers, I’ll split the difference with you on a .40 cal. I have no love for the M9 or it’s ammunition but LEAs have different requirements than the military and I defer to them when it comes to how they arm their personnel. The Army’s mission is radically different and because of that our training, techniques and equipment are also different. Fighting the fight with an anti-terrorism strategy creates a blur between the traditional mission and something that might resemble a law enforcement mission at times but I hope the Army will continue to train soldiers to act like soldiers and not cops.
Something else for you to consider before you start issuing weapons in CONUS:
The suicide rate is still a problem and so are domestic disputes in military families.
>> then we have a bigger problem AGAIN! Who are we hiring ?? are you telling be we’re sending that many “mentally unstable” guys into a war zone??? Armed to the max???
That’s life in the military today. It’s the job, it’s the demographic, you can take your choice but I can tell you that you’re going to lose a lot along the way to the showdown that may never come.
>> My choice?? Huh?? You’re losing me here, friend!! You mean my pov on this??
As for your choice on side arm calibers, I’ll split the difference with you on a .40 cal. I have no love for the M9 or it’s ammunition but LEAs have different requirements than the military and I defer to them when it comes to how they arm their personnel.
>> very true. I have a 9mm I carry… CZ75…. fine weapon. the .40 (or 10mm) has well proven it’s worth as a LEO tool…. I site the 45 for it’s historical knockdown punch, which I think a guy involved in CQB would WANT…… (me?? I’m waiting to get a look at that re-issue “Bren Ten” Vltor is coming out with!! Knockdown power on steriods!)
The Army’s mission is radically different and because of that our training, techniques and equipment are also different.
>> true again!! I like the Rush summed it up, “The Army’s job is to kill people and Break things”!! May sound crude, but it’s spot on!! Kick ass, and go home!! They are NOT “cops”….
Fighting the fight with an anti-terrorism strategy creates a blur between the traditional mission and something that might resemble a law enforcement mission at times but I hope the Army will continue to train soldiers to act like soldiers and not cops.
>> right you are again!!! This “police action” stuff is WAY “off base” for what these guys are really “trained” for…..in combat, a guy jumps out at you, he goes DOWN!! in this “cop business”…. you may well get thrown in JAIL for not “taking the time to “I.D” the “victim” first”!!
Sorry, NOT a “soldiers” job!!! This whole deal is one big rotten mess.. and putting “reserves” in as “line soldiers” sucks too!! If we are that short handed…. INCREASE the ARMY! SIMPLE!
Lastly just had a silly thought…. everyone is worried about arming the army like, well, THE ARMY!!
Yet, our local POLICE now have m-16′s and all sorts of well, ARMY weaponry!?!?!?! What’s up with THAT?
Hankster58, you test America on Your standards?
Which are what?
Qualifications which are what?
Anger NOT backed by logic scores no points with me.
Think before You post here.
I spent the most of my Adult life keeping the US safe and You most likely did not.
Run for Office, join the Military or STFU Punk!
My apologies to FA Posters I was recalled to Active Duty post Retirement and Hankster is a punk from the Peanut Gallery. We have enough of those advising the Pretender in the White House.
@ Old Trooper
Oh, that was rational!
old trooper…..
maybe we need to lay off the coffee??? What in the heck ARE you ranting about??
you want to flame me, at LEAST have the courtesy to of “clipping, quoting or whatever” just WHAT it is you are commenting on!! I have no clue how to respond, or explain, or WHATEVER to an open ended tirade!!! How about cluing me in so I CAN answer!! As to points??? Not trying to score any, from ANYONE, so If you don’t like my comments, fine! I’m willing to comment, listen, evaluate,adjust, then go on from there… that’s how a person “learns”…how a BETTER solution is found. My thoughts are never carved in stone, only a friggin FOOL never leaves room for compromise or thought adjustment. I’M NOT the apparently “closed minded” guy here!! And i’ve got your punk right here, pal!! Don’t bite mine off, i’ll bite ya back!! Jeez!! Get laid, you’ll feel better….
Now if you want to get INSULTING just call me an Obama lackey one more time, and the gloves are OFF!!! You don’t know me, so don’t comment personally like you do!! You’ve gone WAY over the line there….
Oh, by the way, crab or not, I DO respect and thank you for your service, as I do to ALL veterans. No, Nam ended shortly before my “number came up”…so I didn’t go. Close, but no cigar…, but I would have if called, agree with the war or not, Canada was NOT an option here…. tho the Navy “SeaBee’s” recruiter was after me big time back then…. got wind of my schooling I guess…
and tfhr…. we’ve gone around on this one… the fact it seems is, if we are not willing to change things one way, they HAVE to be altered in another. Status Quo is NOT working…. maybe the less “P.C.” idea of being MORE “picky” of who we let in might be in order… i.e. those with conflicting “religious” issues not be on the list etc….
@Robert Kelly #76:
They are only in the majority only in certain countries, such as Iran and Azerbaijan. In Iraq, it’s more something like 62%. Sunni Islam, overall, is a larger denomination of Islam.
Yes, but not all Muslims interpret jihad as the “radicals” do. There are Muslims who earnestly believe in the “inner struggle” definition of it.
I think in many instances, use of the racist/bigotry charge is misapplied. In your case, it leaves me wondering. And I called it “educated” bigotry, because your prejudice isn’t based upon a lack of education, but what I consider “over-educating” oneself on the dangers of Islam, by an overemphasis on anti-Islam and politically incorrect guides to Islam readings- books and material that push an agenda just as pc-laden “Islam is a religion of peace” propaganda seeks to push a pro-Islam agenda.
I think there is a danger in regards to Muslim leaders in America who are linked to extremist views and organizations; but many Muslims who have immigrated to this country do so because of freedoms and opportunity to live a better life, here. American Muslims like Dr. Jasser believe firmly in the U.S. Constitution and the separation of mosque and state. He has no desire to live under Sharia. Does his reformist views make him no longer a true adherent to Islam? An apostate? Perhaps; but it is only through acceptance of reformists like him who embrace modernity and the belief that “Islam is peace” that we won’t find ourselves declaring war and hostility to 1.5 billion of the world’s population. These Muslims reject the apostasy of bin Laden and Zawahiri, whose al Qaeda theolgy is influenced by Qutb and the writings of another whose name escapes me at the moment, as much as anything ever writ in the koran.
As does the “backlash”, lashing out at Muslims who have nothing to do with the likes of al Qaeda or Nidal Hasan.
Europe has a problem with their Muslim population. But America has had more success with integrating Muslim immigrants into mainstream American society.
Not every Muslim is scheming on ways and means to dhimmify you.
Nor I. Which is why I’m all for behavioral profiling.
Sure there is. There are sign posts, all along the way. The problem arises when we ignore the signposts.
So…..do you advocate an amendment to amend the First Amendment? “Congress shall make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion…except Islam”?
Again, who is “they”? Narrow your definition rather than the broad lumping for Allah to sort out.
Muslims are as much at war with the violent extremists as we are. And American Muslims have a stake in the fight as much as Nisei did in WWII. You tell Sgt. Abdelhalim that America rejects him, and that he’s wasting his time being a part of the American dream, and defending its freedoms:
One problem our intell agencies have had is in the number of Arab translators and those born into the culture. We need them in this fight. The majority of Muslims serving thus far, have served honorably. Some might even have political beliefs that, like Democrats, don’t exactly support the war on terror, politically, but who are willing to carry out their duty with professionalism as American soldiers. Should there be a litmus test, however? Maybe so. I think any time we are at war with a nation and have someone with ties to said nation, should be scrutinized for possible divided loyalties. They should be screened. Those who pass the screening, should be allowed to serve.
Counter leftwing anti-U.S. foreign policy matters for one, that perceives us as imperialists and attackers of Muslim nations.
Distinguish and discriminate between peaceful Muslims and those aligned to the side of the Islamists and Islamic terror.
And telling Muslims who have already rejected al Qaeda theology and jihadi mentality that “you’re no different than they are- go away!” only serves the interests of bin laden and Zawahiri who failed to rally the Muslim world against the west. Attitudes like the one you promote may do what they have failed to accomplish.
Because I find the premise of your question flawed. The assumption on your part is for you to define Islam for its practitioners, rather than allowing its practitioners to define it themselves. Basically, you’re siding with the jihadi/hirabi/takfiri interpretations. Anyone diverging from it, supposedly, is no longer practicing “true Islam”. But who is hijacking whose religion? There are gross problems within Islam that makes it incompatible with living in the 21st century world, free from conflict with others, IF you are a strict fundamentalist adhering to wahhabism and other rigid interpretations.
Why play the victim card? I’m only going by views you’ve expressed. Your mistake is in not narrowing your focus to simply “those you hate”, but encompassing a whole group of people, and expanding the reach and range of “those you hate”.
@Robert Kelly #77:
But you are taking “their interpretation” and projecting it onto other Muslims with divergent interpretations. And to say the modern jihadi movement is the same as it’s always been from centuries ago, is not accurate.
@Dr.D #78:
I’m looking at “the facts”. I probably read from some of the same Robert Spencerian material, politically-incorrect guide to Islam books that you’ve come across. I post on a rightwing blog, after all. I’m the same “Wordsmith” who compiled this.
Because we have a different conclusive outlook on “the Muslim problem”, please don’t lump me in with “those living in denial”, setting up strawmen and ascribing to me, PC-laden views I don’t hold.
Media sensationalism. Let’s see….did 1.5 billion Muslims actually protest “around the world” and burn buildings, as you say? Or was it a sizable minority- maybe 10,000 here, a few more hundred over there? That sells papers and is the news; but the vast majority of Muslims were not out rioting in the streets.
Yeah…and the movie 2012 apparently was sanitized of any showing of Mecca being destroyed, because the director didn’t want a fatwa on his head.
[sarcasm]I’m sure Muhammad Ali would have answered that call to jihad on the director’s sorry ass; because, after all, the former Cassius Clay is a devout Muslim and we all know what that means. [/sarcasm]
Nicely done, Wordsmith sir.
Wordsmith, are you really ready for America to look like Sweden where the women are routinely addressed by muzlim ‘youths’ as whores, simply because they are white? Where they are raped because they must be asking for it? Where muzlim “youth” rob the natives on the street for the fun of it and then brag about the rush they get from this?
Maybe you prefer the English version where they have taken over most of Manchester and a number of other English towns and deny entry to white Englishmen? Where they jeer at the East Anglian regiment returning from Afghanistan? Where they threaten to riot with 10000 protesters in the street if Geert Wilders is allowed to simply speak to a private group in a small room in the Parliament building? Etc.
How about the French version where they routinely burn hundreds of cars in a night, just for the fun of it? They burn blocks of buildings, and assault the firefighters and police that respond. Sounds really great, doesn’t it?
Have you seen the numbers on muzlim verson nonmuzlim reproduction? Around the world, muzlims are having about 6 children or more per woman, while nonmuzlims are running about 1.2 children per woman. We are very shortly on the verge of being overwhelmed. If we do not resist, we will simply be inundated with the numbers that we cannot resist.
Are we simply going to allow ourselves to be submerged in a rising tide of muzlims, or will we do something to stem that tide?
Dr D.
I read nothing in his post or position that says he wants the things you described. America is not Europe, and while Obama and the Libs wish to make it so, the other 80% of us do not.
You can do better than the un-thinking strawman argument.
I have a LOT of family in the Netherlands (Holland if you will) and you do NOT want to let things get to the level THEY are at now…. The islamics (mostly Turkish) have all but over run the country,, in Amsterdam to the point that the “natives” are afraid to go out during the day… all but NEVER at night!! All because they were overly “nice” (liberal) and allowed just about anything to go….and anyone to come in… right up to the point that THEIR nation is all but SOMEONE ELSES now!!!
Check on Denmark.. France… ENGLAND, our CLOSEST ALLY……. how do we tell who from whom? I don’t really know that answer, but we better figure it out, and FAST!
@ Patvann
Where is the “unthinking strawman argument”?
I did not say he want to make America into the situation in Europe. I am saying that the situation in Europe is the result of that sort of thinking, the inability to see what is happening and draw the lines that need to be drawn. The Europeans did not want to create the situation that now exists in Europe either, but it happened to them. Just as it will happen to us if we do not wake up.
I’ve kept this from last year during the campaign. The percentages are certainly more than referenced here…figures from 2007.
The Muslims plan is to migrate to new countries and breed. When you have enough, start demanding..take the country. Read this excellent article from the “Freedom’s Enemies” site:
Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.
Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called “religious rights.”
When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to “the reasonable” Muslim demands for their “religious rights,” they also get the other components under the table.
Here’s how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).
As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:
United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%
At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halaal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States).
France — Muslim 8% Actually, now up to about 11% since this was published.
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris — car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam — Mohammed cartoons).
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 10-15%
After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%
At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%
From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%
100% will usher in the peace of “Dar-es-Salaam” — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:
Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 99.9%
Of course, that’s not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.
“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world. And all of us against the infidel. — Leon Uris, “The Haj”
It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.
Oh, but that could never happen here! (/sarc off) Thank you, Ann. I have seen most of that written up previously, I just did not know where to put my hands on it. It gives the facts very precisely from a solid source. Of course there will be many who will say, “well, you cannot trust the CIA for facts” but what can we say? The facts speak for themselves for those who have eyes to see.
Along with the Muslim migration to the US, we are also overrun with illegals from Mexico. Hope I’m not caught in the crossfire when they start shooting at one another…oh, wait. They’ll both be shooting at us.
I attended a dinner Saturday night was was seated at a table of strangers. One was a retired teacher from Salinas who was commenting on political correctness. I thought uh oh…but turns out she was giving a bit of education to the PC ladies from Pacific Grove and Carmel at the table. She said that she used to feel the same way they do about diversity; that it’s always romanticized on the Left but when your neighborhood, where you have owned your home for years, becomes a war zone from the Mexican gangs, you wake up fast. As I got the gist of who was who at the table, I realized that they were being oh so tolerant…terminal niceness cases, patronizing her so I jumped right in and backed her up. My experience of living in Salinas for a year while attending classes was a horror. I couldn’t wait to get out of there and I won’t be going back any time soon…for anything. Shootings every week and the city fathers decided that group fasting and getting the grandmothers to hold their boys accountable was a good way to go. Hahahahaha. Steinbeck Country is long gone and now it’s Little Tijuana and Grandma and the rest of the non-English speaking family are supported by gang drug money. And they are in every state. We need the US Army to come in and secure the borders then round them up and dump them on Vicente’s doorstep.
The Muslims are headed in the same direction. I haven’t heard if the first Hamas sympathizing Palestinians that Obama has budgeted $200million for immigration have started arriving. If not, we need to stop it. That’s insane…unless of course, you believe it suits his overall agenda.
i’m the firstborn American in my family…. folks are naturalized Citizens. They now claim to be AMERICANS…. not “hyphenated” Americans…… AMERICANS! A LOT of our problems came when we decided (well, somebody, not US!) to be so darned P.C. …. I “think” it started with the “Afro-American” thing….. which I can’t understand!! If you as a “race” want to be equal…. WHY is it one of the first things you do is to SEPARATE yourself with a “hyphenated” barrier??? Mexican- American…Afro-American…. is there a “Muslem-American”?? We used to be called a “Melting Pot” because all different people could come here, and become ONE…. NOW they WANT to be PART American… and keep one foot somewhere ELSE!! THAT is what is screwing up the works!!! Frankly (IMHO) we need to get back to our basic roots, AND rules!! You want to be an American, Be AMERICAN!! Not some half-assed combo whoknowswhat….. If you CAN’T dedicate yourself to the U.S. …. then you don’t get to join. Sorry….. back to the original rulebook. things were fine then, so maybe we ought to go back to it NOW!
As to the “illegal Mexican” problem….. my beef isn’t with them as a PEOPLE… it’s with breaking the law to get in, then screwing with our laws to stay…. and “being allowed” to circumvent them for benefits etc… a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a …… you get the idea. As a people, the ones I’ve run into are hard workers… take care of their families… seem to be reverent etc….so maybe we OUGHT to come up with a “plan” where they can “work off” the “illegalness” of their entry, and EARN a legal status, citizenship etc. Wanna stay, you got to play!! (by the rules)….. rather have them earning thier livings and paying (keeping) taxes HERE!! we need them!!
Muslems?? Same deal.. are you IN. or OUT??
@Hankster58: I think it became African-American as in I was a slave, it’s your fault and you owe me. Same with the rest. I’ve never been a British-American; my ancestors were proud of the revolution we fought in…and they earned being called American. Anyone who wants to come her legally, become naturalized, etc., should be that proud too.
“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.” Theodore Roosevelt, 1858-1919, from a speech in New York, October 12, 1915.
@Dr.D:
No, but you begged the question:
Which is a fallacious way of arguing, since you’ve now shifted the goal posts and require us to accept the premise before providing the proof, that because of my position (which seems to be confused with that taken by multiculturalists and the PC-burdened), America will go the route of Europe, which I agree has an Islamist-infestation problem. As Patvann points out, America is not Europe.
The problems of a country like France stems from its discrimination policies as much as the desire not to assimilate into French society on the part of Muslim immigrants. Basically by not carrying out a policy of assimilation, France has a situation of “mini nations within a nation”.
America, on the other hand, has for the most part, successfully integrated immigrant populations into mainstream America. My fear is the diversity crowd and multiculturalists who wish to dilute American core traditions, principles, and native culture through the rejection of assimilation. By promoting multiculturalism, bilingualism, and segregated communities that don’t encourage people to think of themselves as Americans first and foremost, you will end up with those of divided loyalties.
According to a Pew study a while back, most Muslim Americans appear to have integrated themselves into mainstream America. Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and falafels:
There are a couple of points to be concerned with, however:
I think first generation Muslims who left their native lands, did so in order to seek a better life. Iranian-Americans, for instance, understand what it’s like to live under a true totalitarian regime.
The second generation youth, I am guessing, are influenced by the same anti-American spirit that pervades our universities. Liberal indoctrination that sees American imperialism and promotes “cultural equality” over assimilation, just may convince some Muslim youths to have misguided romanticized notions about insurgents in Iraq being “freedom fighters”, and “fighting the good fight” against oppression, racism- all those idealistic struggles that appeal to young people. A lot of our youth in general aren’t being taught that Americans rescue Muslims: We came to the rescue of Kuwait at the behest of Saudi Arabia; that we came to their rescue in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia. From 1980 to 2001, the primary deliverer of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan and 80% of the aid distributed by the NGOs within the framework of the World Food Prgram was paid for by Americans; that today, we are helping to protect Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan from extremists.
Nope. Besides any conspiratorial propaganda coming from the Middle East, all they need do is go to the latest Hollywood flick or open up the NYTimes to see how badly America is treating Muslims and oppressing the world at large.
I used to feel that the persecution of Arab Americans and American Muslims after 9/11 are exaggerated claims and a problem of perception. But some of the commenters here make me wonder….
As far as “singling out” Muslims, I have no problem with reasonable surveillance if given adequate cause based upon behavioral profiling as much as anything else. Muslims at AIFD (Dr. Jasser’s group) agree with being profiled:
That’s living in denial, and is worrisome. Kinda like that statistic about the number of people who felt the government had something to do with being behind 9/11.
I don’t think it’s all that uncommon for groups to want to live in denial when their particular ethnicity or nation of origin or religion, feels to be under attack. People, by nature, will come up with excuses and rationalize.
I have a strong aversion to hyphenated American pride these days. Yes, it’s nice to take pride in where you come from; but these days, I see the dangers of that. Not just with muslim Americans with ties to Middle Eastern countries hostile to the U.S., let alone ties to Islam; but also with those who wave around foreign flags and cheer foreign soccer teams (yes, I’m thinking of Mexican-Americans- what a racist I am!). If we ever went to war with Mexico, you bet I’d question the loyalty of some citizens of Mexican heritage. Nothing racist about it, but makes perfect sense if you read Michelle Malkin’s book, The Case for Internment. Anyone with divided loyalties deserves scrutiny in wartime. It should not only be expected, but encouraged and endorsed by the very people who claim to love America before love of their native country we may be warring against.
@Hankster58:
I heartily agree that better vetting is long overdue and so is the return to the clear-eyed recognition that we are a country at war.
I’d also add that the sentiments you and others have expressed here about “hyphenated” Americans is a view I’ve held close for as long as I can remember. If you cannot see yourself as an American first and foremost, you’re in the wrong country.
Here Here!!
Do you have any idea what a person had to go thru, as late as 1956, just to IMMIGRATE to America???? This just walk in crap,i don’t know when it started… but it IS the leading cause of much of our “National Upheaval” we’re dealing with today…. My dad was almost DENIED entry…. because an X-ray of his chest showed what “could have been” TB…. had to have an X-ray and med history sent over from Holland showing it was “scar tissue” from childhood Pneumonia!!!! You see them examining people that close TODAY??? And one wonders why we have so many nutcakes getting in!!! Also, one had to have a U.S. SPONSOR, who helped and kept tabs on you for a YEAR, just to make sure you got your feet on the ground, help if needed with any issues, and got off to a good start…. Today???? nada….. anything goes…. and look what’s happening!!!
And WORDSMITH…. there’s nothing wrong with being proud of ones heritage! I agree!! In St.Louis…. there was “Bevo Day” (German heritage celebration in “what was” a predominately German neighborhood once a year)…. “Hill Day”..( held up “on the hill”, a part of St. Louis predominately Italian”) everyone in town knows the best Italian food is “on the Hill”…. Over in Millstadt there’s an Octoberfest, same in Hermann …. that’s cool! St. Charles has a FRENCH festival….History is an IMPORTANT thing.. reminds of how we got here.. the fact they now tend to IGNORE it is part of the cause of the crap going on NOW!!
@Hankster58: I agree that immigration isn’t as stringent in some ways as before. However, I have a new relative, recent immigrant from Eastern Europe. She had to go through an extensive application process; had to obtain police reports from Israel and the UK, where she had lived years earlier that she had no record, warrants, etc. These had to be paid for in the currency of the country of issuance. I believe she also had to have a health clearance too…but probably from her home country. She’s an educated, lovely woman who will be a credit to America. We wouldn’t have anyone in our family here illegally. Disgusting…especially to new Legal immigrants who know what it means to them, having gone through the process.
My family has been here since the early 1700′s; fought for Independence along side George Washington, WWII (101st Airborne and Patton’s Army) and several were military during Viet Nam, although I don’t believe any of them were in combat. Patriotism is big in our family and always has been and as you might imagine, I truly despise what is happening to our country now.