13 Jul
Weekly Open Thread – Bumped
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Monday, July 13th, 2009 at 10:53 am | 10 views
Americans are losing jobs at record rates, our debt is through the roof, so lets throw more money away
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/10/g8-summit-africa-071009/?world&zIndex=129727
Then our enemies will be happy, when they see us destroy ourselves.
I think everyone should go here and sign up to get the Read the Bill Act passed. Even the lefties have to agree this is a good idea. No lawmaker should be allowed to vote on a bill they haven’t read. It the things are too long to read, they need to fix that, not pass the job off to an unelected staffer.
@Aqua:
I do agree. This applies to everything from the Patriot Act to the latest “stimulus” gamble. But we also must understand that while a bill is being discussed and worked on, much of the time Congress folk have read and are aware of what’s in the bill multiple times over, except for revisions. What’s really needed is a chance for the American people to have a chance to read the bill and respond to their representatives about it. There should be a set time frame for them to hear us out before they vote. We have every right to know and have say about matters that concern us, beyond pulling a lever and just trusting.
Another real problem is when Congress votes on a bill that hasn’t even been completely written.
A prime example is the Cap & Trade legislation that was passed week before last.
The nearly 1400 page bill wasn’t complete. It had a large number of areas that they planned to “fill in later”. A 300 plus page amendment was dropped at 3am the day of the vote.
A copy of the legislation was not even in the well of the House as required by their own rules.
Any Congresscritter who votes on a piece of legislation without having read it should be run out of town.
No exceptions. No mercy.
@ Cary
Well Cary, you need to talk to Steny Hoyer. He said no one would even vote for Obama-care if they read the bill. And no one read the Porkulus bill. They don’t read the bills.
I agree with you though. Not only should they read the bills, but we should be allowed to read them as well. At least put it on the web for a few days before a vote. Wait, wasn’t that a campaign promise? Thanks to Fit fit, I have that information. That was one of 6 broken promises so far. Campaign Promise 234
DON’T WORRY, IF CAP AND TRADE DOESN’T GET THE CO2 DOWN, THEY HAVE A PLAN-B
http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/
@Aqua:
Thanks for providing the link to that site. – it appears to be non-partisan and fair. My position on the issue in question is largely based on what he said he’d do in the campaign, so the way it has played out does bother me – especially with this “stimulus” package (you there Mike? – that’s is one of the other two issues I’m unhappy with… as discussed on another thread!) The bums who created this mess of an economy are “bailed out” with my honestly earned tax money, while the mess I’m in because of it is one I have to dig out of with hard work.
But to be fair, the site also lists his promises kept – and while they may not be relevant (getting his kids a puppy) or ones we all agree with, they are still promises kept and two pages long:
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-kept/?page=1
Actually, the more I look at this site, the more I like it. I provides a heck of a lot of easy to find info. Thanks again!
@ Cary
Credit goes to Fit fit. He linked it in one of our exchanges. I agree, it’s a great site and so far, I’ve found them to be very fair. I will say though, breaking a promise on transparency and keeping a promise of getting a dog…
He has kept other promises, but compared the the change and transparency promised, they don’t compare.
If you’re really interested in the Oglers’ track record on promises kept/broken you will have to look beyond just the PolitiFact site.
You can look here and here and here for a start.
You can also look here for a list of lies (158 and counting) that the Ogler has told so far.
As I read the site and was intrigued–the first couple of times, I noticed some discrepancies and made my own fact-check phone calls, dug up multi-sources of research and was able to refute some of their fact proclaimations directly —
I have come to a conclusion that the poli-fact site is a real ruse — a way for that newspaper staff to pontificate their version, their fact checkers’ view of the truth.
They should have a disclaimer on the site as well as quality meter to “missions accomplished.”
Example: A politician promises to build a road. The road is built — promised kept?
–The road promised was to be a six lane highway around a growing small city to
alleviate traffic pile up, pollution, promote safety, encourage commerce — etc.
–This hypothetical road was to be built with $X and take 1 year.
–The actual road took 2.5 years, cost $XXXXXX, was not placed in the planned area due to
lawsuits by environmental groups, ended up being 1/10th of the distance and a two lane
rural type road with minimal use to the growing community. businesses, substandard
paving so heavy vehicles not permitted, and unsafe gravel shoulders.
The road was built so was the promise kept?
Example: John Boehner spoke the day of the Cap & Trade vote for about an hour. He did say
that a copy of the legislation was not even in the well of the House as required by House
rules. This questionable site — called Rush Limbaugh a liar by repeating what Boehner said
on the floor of the house. Henry Waxman interupted Boehner several times but did not
refute the absence of the bill in the Well….
So who is calling Boehner a liar to this site when they had the opportunity to call him
one on the House floor — for bloodletting points. (Waxman was not civil in his interuptions
so do you think he would have let that slip by???)
I recommend you find another site — that one is an addendum for their editorial page.
Exactly why my post on the “promise kept” by Obama INRE real estate, American Voter. Parsing words, one can say he performed, but it does not call into question the quality of the performance.
Im with you American Voter.. At first it seemed fair, but with how the data is presented, there leaves much to be desired. I do like how they don’t just pick on any one party, but leave it open to everyone, including the public. However (again), the kind of prose attached to complicated subjects of fact/truth/fiction/lie etc, leaves much to be desired. In general, if things were that cut and dried (even Obies unkempt promises), our conversations here would be much shorter and rarely in disagreement.
@ An American Voter
You are a very rare person my friend. Most people will look at something like this and believe everything there. I think PolitiFact is a good place to start your search for the truth. They tend to treat everyone the same. They’ve put the “pants on fire” meter on Obama and Newt, Olberman and Coulter.
As for the Cap and Tax Bill being on the in the well and Rush alluding the the fact that it wasn’t and calling it Barely True. I think they got it right. The bill and the changes were with the clerk, they just hadn’t been merged. The only thing they brought up was Rush’s claim. Just as Mata in her post on Promise Kept #15, Foreclosure Prevention, there is much more to the story. Why is congress voting on bills that haven’t been fully published and read by every member?
So to be fair, I think the PolitiFact site is pretty cool. Would I believe everything there without getting the rest of the story? Nope.
On another subject, THIS IS A MUST READ!
Sec. 881. Cyberbullying
‘(a) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication, with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass, or cause substantial emotional distress to a person, using electronic means to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
The democrats are looking to shut us all up. How ’bout that Fit fit, Larry?
@Aqua:
wow.. sounds pretty subjective to me. Hostile? Hostile to whom? Notice how the Fed makes this all happen? Thats right, interstate and foreign commerce. Great for equal rights back a while ago, horrible now.
Like others above, my interest in Politifact was short-lived, later I stumbled upon Subprime Bloviations. This blog fact-checks and grades the Politifact fact-checkers on topics that are of interest to the blogger.
Overall, it’s an interesting blog, this is the link to his PolitiFact archive:
http://subloviate.blogspot.com/search/label/PolitiFact
@Aqua:
The “pragmatist” is taking steps to “ahem” calm the waters and save us from ourselves. Who wouldn’t want to be protected from offensive remarks brought to us by cyber bullies, trolls, sock puppets. etc. in our favorite chat rooms, blogs, e-mail, instant messaging? Or, just who doesn’t want their message open to scrutiny by those exorcising their freedom of speech rights?
Perhaps that would be……the pragmatist in chief:
snip
snip
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/07/cass_sunsteins_despicable_idea.html
My post is in the filter. P&T
@ Liam
I’m guessing hostile to anyone the adminstration believes to be a problem.
@ Missy
Two nice posts. I’ve book marked the PolitiFact checker. I’ve never believed everything they’ve posted, but it is a great place to start.
As for the Cyberbullying? I just found the Cass Sunstein article myself. Absolutely chilling.
Just a few fishing storys
Catherine
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.3ff0cff2d377cd06b153badc6ae2bcae.81&show_article=1
Monster fish killed after terrorising Swiss swimmers
Jul 13 2009
“It is quite unusual for zanders to bite humans”, Croci said, adding he suspected the fish was suffering from a hormonal imbalance which could be responsible for its aggression
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99DNCAG4&show_article=1
Federal budget deficit hits milestone, tops $1 trillion with 3 months left in budget year.
Jul 13 2009
OOPs how did that get in there?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ab03c6d3b3a7ecad80ca03e378097a4b.1a1&show_article=1
Mystery mechanism drove global warming 55 million years ago
Jul 13 2009
A runaway spurt of global warming 55 million years ago turned Earth into a hothouse but how this happened remains worryingly unclear, scientists said on Monday.
OOPs
They believe that levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) rose by 70 percent during PETM’s main phase to reach 1,700 parts per million (ppm), attaining a concentration of between four and five times that of today.
Better read?
I don’t know if you saw this very recent Pew Poll (Pew, along with Rasmussen, being the only polling institution which nailed the 2008 Presidential election dead on).
http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1549
One of the many interesting findings was that 81% of American scientists are either registered Democrats or lean Democratic, as opposed to 18% of scientists who are either registered Republicans or lean Republican. This poll is very consistent with my own personal experience/knowledge base.
What’s most important about this, I believe, is that it argues strongly against the concept that American universities are dominated by liberals because of some sort of active discrimination against conservatives on a large scale. Hiring and promotions in science in universities and private-sector industry have nothing at all to do with politics — it’s entirely on the basis of scientific productivity, which is a very objective thing to quantify, with (university) metrics based on publications, publication “impact factor” (an objective metric), and outside research grants. So academia is dominated by liberals not because of discrimination against conservatives, but because people attracted to careers in academia tend to be people who are attracted to inquiry and teaching and such people are disproportionately liberal, much as people most attracted to careers in journalism tend to be politically liberal, as well.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach
@ Larry
Yeah, that’s kinda what I thought too. Stupid people, like engineers are mostly republican. And all those scientists that don’t buy into global climate change, (which used to be called global warming, but can’t be called that any longer, ’cause the planet is cooling), aren’t really shunned for their beliefs. It’s just the new peer review procedures. Finding a flaw in Michael Mann’s hockey stick was the result of a partisan hack, non-academic. Denying an opposing view on climate change just leads to better science.
You know Larry, you’re right. This sounds just like the Obama Administration.
And where is this suppressed scientific information? Would it be like the Obama EPA suppressing dissenting views on climate change? No one in D.C. can keep their mouths shut long enough for a sneeze to be suppressed. Please.
Wait, I answered my own question. Most of the accusations were from: The Union of Concerned Scientists. Now there’s a group of non-partisan academics. Here’s some quotes from one of their spokespersons:
Free Enterprise really means rich people get richer. They have the freedom to exploit and psychologically rape their fellow human beings in the process . . . Capitalism is destroying the earth. — Helen Caldicott, Union of Concerned Scientists
Every time you turn on an electric light, you are making another brainless baby — Helen Caldicott, Union of Concerned Scientists
I’m just betting she’d hire a person that could prove socialism would destroy the environment. Yep, I’m almost sure of it.
I’d be interested in a citation regarding the political affiliation of engineers. I am aware of a study of the political affiliation of academic engineering departments — these also trend in the direction of being more liberal, and hiring and promotions in engineering, as well as science generally, is negligibly affected by political affiliation.
What on earth does “The union of concerned scientists” or the perceived persecution of those in the minority in the climate change debate have to do with the findings in the Pew Poll, which I cited, above?
Regarding the “hockey stick:”
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/myths-vs-fact-regarding-the-hockey-stick/
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Academic engineering departments tend to be a little bit more conservative than most other departments on campus, but remember, they are academics. Hence, they tend to run to the left.
Practicing engineers as a whole tend to be very conservative people. It is the nature of the profession. Every thing about the practice of engineering is based on making conservative judgments, most especially where the public safety and health are involved, but pretty much across the board otherwise as well. We build thing NOT to fail, not to push them right to the edge.
I speak as one who is now retired after a career spent just about half in academia and half in industry so I am pretty familiar with both sides of the situation.
@ Larry
I’m a telecom engineer. I work with 5 other engineers at my company. I also interact with about 20 other engineers in other companies. Of those, I only know 1 engineer that is liberal. As Dr. D said, most engineers are rather conservative. We build things so they won’t fail.
As for the Hockey Stick myth. Your citation is from 2004. Here’s a little update.
Swedish Scientist Accuses UN’s IPCC of Falsifying Data and Destroying Evidence
And I thought this was rather indicative of the current climate change fever.
19 Feb 09 – The ice is melting! The ice is melting! . . . Or is it?
In May, 2008, the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) predicted that the North Pole would be ice-free during the 2008 melt season because of ‘global warming.’
Today, they admitted that they’ve underreported Arctic ice extent by 193,000 square miles (500,000 square kilometers).
They blamed the “error” on satellite problems and sensor drift. Found Here
And as for the last part, the pew poll also refered to the suppression of scientific data by the Bush administration. Sorry, guess I got ahead of myself.
@ Dr. D
You said:
That was my point. People attracted to careers in non-for-profit research and teaching tend to be politically liberal. Not that, in order to get an academic job in science or engineering, you have to be politically liberal. I’m saying that, yes, there is a preponderance of politically liberal people in academics (as well as in the press), but this is not because of some discrimination against politically conservative scientists or engineers — it’s just because of self selection for entry into academic positions by people with liberal thinking.
By nature, researchers are into pushing the envelope. So, perhaps, academic engineers would be expected, by nature, to be more liberal than industry engineers. I’d be interested in the political leanings of, for example, NASA engineers or Google software engineers or Apple hardware engineers.
@Aqua: I was addressing your comment about the “hockey stick.” There isn’t anything in your citations which in anyway contradict the discussion of this controversy which I cited. You, instead, want to steer this in the direction of a general climate change debate. While the topic is of interest to me, I don’t presently have the time to engage. Perhaps in the future (although my preferred debate opponent on this topic is Mike, as I don’t like having to debate with a dozen people at once, which is the problem with taking even a vaguely “liberal” position on this blog).
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
(son of a retired Ford Motor Co automotive engineer)
Would it be too much to ask Conservative and Liberal College professors to teach and leave their politics at home? I guess free will or drawing your own conclusions is not allowed on US colleges. Too bad.
@ Larry Weisenthal
I’m sure that there is a degree of the self-selection that you speak about, but I can assure you that there is also very definitely the discrimination that you doubt. I have seen it first hand, so I am very familiar with it.
Many university faculties have unions, something entirely antithetical to the idea of a learned profession. Engineers are usually misfits in faculty unions.
NASA engineers and all aerospace engineers learn to live with much smaller design factors of safety that does a civil structures engineer. But the criterion is still the same: it must not fail. Because most of aerospace is tied to defense contracting as well, most aerospace engineers tend to be very conservative as well.
I don’t know any Google or Apple engineers, but I do know that their criteria are the same as mine: it must not fail. That does not tell me what their politics will be, but it gives me some clues.
BREAKING NEWS:
SarahPac raises $733,000 !!!
http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2009/07/sarahpac-raises-733k-in-first-six.html
Snip…
Sarah Palin’s political action committee raised nearly $733,000 in the first six months of 2009 and has more than $450,000 in cash on hand, according to new filings with the Federal Election Commission.
Snip….
The majority of the money raised by SarahPAC so far has come in the form of “unitemized contributions,” meaning donations of less than $200 each. PACS are not required to name those small donors in their filings with the FEC. The remaining money came through more than 700 different $200-plus contributions made by donors from all around the United States.
@ Tom
You said
Would it be too much to ask Conservative and Liberal College professors to teach and leave their politics at home? I guess free will or drawing your own conclusions is not allowed on US colleges. Too bad.
Faculty have a lot to do with the running of a college as well as the teaching that goes on in the classroom. Faculty are concerned with issues of student life (co-ed dorms, sex, drugs, violence, etc.), with who gets promoted and who does not, with the adoption of new programs and the abandonment of old ones, accreditations, curriculum requirements, faculty hiring, and a host of other things. How a person sees life, as a Conservative or as a Liberal, affects how they will want to move the campus in all of these areas. None of these things are matters of overt indoctrination of students in the classroom, but they are places where faculty political view points come into play quite strongly.
Evidently *some* of the conservative “best and brightest” are learning successful tactics from Alinsky and Obama.
@ Tom #31:
Faculty be conservative or liberal does not necessarily have anything at all to do with indoctrination in the classroom (although it can in some cases).
Faculty are concerned with all aspects of the operation of a college, including academic standards, accreditation, student life (co-ed dorm, drinking on campus, sex, drugs, etc.), addition of new courses, dropping of old courses, common core curriculum requirements, who get promoted and who does not, etc. How each faculty member views life — as a conservative or a liberal — impacts how they approach all of these matters.
To say that faculty should leave their politics at home and just teach is to ask them not to be people. It is not likely to happen.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Larry, please. Most American “scientists” are of the biological or psychological variety, most very “liberal” i.e., far Left. If, however, they did a survey of those involved in reality-based science and engineering, people who have to deal with the real world on a daily basis, they would find most are conservative, as we see in this exchange….
http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/595324-conservative-vs-liberal-profession.html
And here we find more of the same sentiments…
OK, so Matta isn’t the only one who, upon seeing a grub, has the urge to step on it.
@Aqua:
Watts Up With That has some good material lately (stuff you won’t see in the MSM) about how warm it ISN’T…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/07/13/nyc-fails-to-reach-85%C2%B0f-in-june-first-time-since-1916/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/07/13/record-cold-in-portland-maine-in-july/
Also, going green isn’t for those who don’t know how…
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4473382,00.html
(Talk about a ‘Faustian Bargain’)
If the idiots think it’s warming, they need to think again…
http://www.examiner.com/x-3854-Cincinnati-Weather-Examiner~y2009m7d13-Deadly-and-destructive-cold
When the you know what hits the Global Warming fan, Obama’s going to be covered in it. (Gore, too, one can hope!)
@yonason:
Heh.
@yonason:
And, that’s going to have to be a lot of “you know what” to cover those two.
For me global warming has always been a scam.
1816 prove it a year without a summer.
Of course Ben Franklin had the theory in the late 1700s man those guys were smart.
The next trick in the scamers bag is the acid rain scam remember that one that was of course after the Mt St Hellen went off looks like we already fixed that one but with all the sulfer in the air from The Russian and Alaska volcanos going off just wait the scamers will bring that one back too??
Follow the money just a bunch of dumb rich kids who can’t make it on their own so they still think they rule and don’t want to mix it up with the little people what was it Reid said about all those smelly tourst?
OOPs how did that get in ther?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1C_NWMRs8Q&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgatewaypundit%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded
ObamaHandshakeSnubbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t439ruGCqRw&feature=related
Obama Snubbed In Saudi Arabia
Yep changing the world??
The things bhos groupies don’t want you to see??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdu1E_2j3vU&feature=related
Break Dancing Babies, Evians newest baby ad!
Forget the baby’s the democrats want to ban bottle water just more for the unemployment line OOPs?
Looks like the democrats are going to add another 500billion tax onto the American people I still won’t buy GM.
Catherine
@Catherine
If I understand you correctly I don’t think 1816 in itself proves Global Warming is a scam.
Apparently 1816 – the year without summer – was primarily due to ‘low in solar activity and a volcanic winter event’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_Summer
Like in any typical complex system there are several things working together or against each other at the same time. So if there was a big enough volcano eruption this year then the same thing could happen again – global warming or no global warming.
Sorry all this GW rape just pisses me off
Remember
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124718309166920285.html
JULY 10, 2009
King Canute at the G-8
Concerns about high costs and lost jobs have already threatened or killed carbon-emissions control schemes in enviro-conscious Australia and New Zealand. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, another sunshine environmentalist, insisted on exemptions for German industry, including cement and steel, from last year’s EU climate deal, which pledged to reduce carbon emissions by 20% from 1990 levels by 2020. Italy engineered its own escape clause, requiring the EU to renegotiate its climate policy after a U.N. climate change summit in Copenhagen later this year. That probably kills the European deal, since China (the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases), India and other developing countries showed this week that they are unlikely to agree to any draconian emissions cuts.
But remember
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aLrrq268WnQQ
Canadian Wheat Output May Fall on Dry, Cool Weather (Update1)
Tony C. Dreibus
June 11 (Bloomberg
Grapevines freeze in Brazil
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/16/first-ever-ice-wine-in-brazil/
First Ever Ice Wine in Brazil
Via Joe D’Aleo at ICECAP
Our friends at the METSUL reports that for the first time ever in Brazil icewine has been produced in this unusually cold June in Southern Brazil
With pleasure we inform that the Perico team yesterday registered in its vineyards, located in the farm Boy God, District of the Perico in Joaquin – Santa Catarina, a phenomenon of the nature, the most waited of this time: the ice wine. The temperatures had fallen well below-freezing and the thermometers had marked – 7.5 C. A dream if became reality: the harvest of the grapes congealed for this so wonderful act of the nature.
YEP freezing in the rainforrest?
http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=386720
Snow falls in western ND, in June
Jun 6 2009
Eds: APNewsNow. Will be led.
Bismarck, N.D. (AP) Snow has fallen in Dickinson in June, the first time in nearly 60 years the city has seen snow past May
Freak June snow 2009
http://slowcoustic.com/2009/06/06/thinking-warmer-thoughts-with-hot-playlist-june-snow-in-calgary-mix/
Damn it, it still shouldn’t snow in June. I have already had my sunburn from a couple weeks back fade and now we are back to snow!
Mean while his [bhos] frinds were cleaning up on oil op?
Sunoco Inc founded by J. Pew
http://oilsandstruth.org/sunoco-founder-pew-charitable-trusts-financier-cbi-coming-back-tar-sands
Sunoco (founder of Pew Charitable Trusts– financier of the CBI) Coming back into Tar Sands
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/07/09/financial/f153115D11.DTL&type=jobs
Sunoco puts 4 workers on leave after investigation
Thursday, July 9, 2009
Ap
Friends of bho remember that party in san fran at pews house where bho showed his hate for the good people of Pa.?
He [bho] is also setting it up for our borders to be flooded again with the ?
Keep your powder dry.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124726259338825191.html
JULY 11, 2009
New Curbs Set on Arrests of Illegal Immigrants
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203547904574280023928652200.html
JULY 12, 2009, 4:59 A.M. ET
The Cult of the Caudillo
The strongman may be Latin America’s most important contribution to political science. The crisis in Honduras has many terrified that power-hungry leaders are making a comeback.
For the record I wouldn’t shake his hand either but for different reasons see I don’t like People who sell my country out.
Catherine
@yonason:
Life is way too short to waste time talking to people who don’t understand the concept of the honest difference of opinion.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Okay before suvs or even cars?
How did the Themes stop freezing in the 1700s because we know in the 1600s they had what I believe were called Ice fairs on the Themes because the river froze to even have elephants give rides to people. since you are so wise sure wicki will have the answer about the change in the weather to warm to stop the freezing of the river of course this was long before we had SUVs??
See people have been watching sun spots all the way back into the 1500s maybe longer and that was not the only volcano that went off in 1815 which means it took 15 mo.s to make the weather damn right cold and Frankenstein was not the only thing that came out in 1816. with the solar spots low we lose a radiation that kills most harmful bacteria or keeps them in ck so look at the record about the crop loss and the killer bugs going and coming at lest 5 years before and after.
Then we all know people will go to war to feed their people land water.
The co2 was lower in the dust bowl years but we still had them.
The great floods in the 1920, 1927 will help. believe it was the 1927 flood of Mississippi but the flooding started much earlier but not many people had cars then.
Hell the weather guy can’t give you an exact time in 2 weeks what the temp or rain will be and you think al gore can predict the future out 50 years?
Me I don’t write for a living so no grammar ck I write like I talk southern blond.
Catherine
@Dr.D
Thanks for your comments and insights regarding the “must not fail” viewpoint of engineering.
I need to find the study, which I cited, which, if memory serves, purported to show that even university engineering faculties trended in the liberal direction. I attribute this to self-selection: by definition, academia aspires to push the envelope in research, albeit, one presumes for engineering, in more cautious increments than in true exploratory science disciplines (and, contrary to another opinion, biological science, currently exploding in ways that will change the lives of nearly everyone on the planet, is quite definitely “reality-based”).
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
The operative word there being “honest,” Larry.
@yonason
You crossed the line in #46.
The next time you accuse someone of dishonesty, have the guts to sign your own name.
@Dr.D
I found the study of which I was thinking:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/hhs/ratioi/0054.html
This was a survey published in November 2004 of the political affiliations of faculty at the University of California Berkeley and Stanford University. The following are the numbers of registered Democrats/Republicans in the two engineering departments represented in the study:
Civil Engineering: Berkeley 14 Dems/4 GOP Stanford 10 Dems/3 GOP
Electrical Engineering: Berkeley 22 Dems/7 GOP Stanford: 18 Dems /6 GOP
According to the US News&World Report rankings, Berkeley and Stanford rank numbers 2 and 3 in the nation (behind only MIT) in engineering. So the idea that Berkeley and Stanford faculty are being hired and promoted on the basis of political leanings would seem to be most unlikely.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@Catherine
Absolutely – climate has changed dramatically over the earth’s history without SUVs or indeed even cars. And earth’s climate will no doubt continue to change naturally when there are no more humans, SUVs or cars left. No one, I believe, is claiming otherwise. However the point is – whether the climate is being warmed above and beyond earth’s natural climate changes because of man’s activity in the relatively recent past & present – in terms of burning fossil fuels etc.
Take a seperate example – because scientists believe that over the Earth’s history- many species have been wiped out before humans ever appeared – but that doesn’t prove that humans aren’t responsible for a lot of species being wiped out today. And if a species does become extinct in the present – it doesn’t always mean it was primarily caused by humans.
Climate change is not a – ‘it’s must either be Nature or it must be Mankind debate’. I would of thought even the most ardent Climate Change skeptic wouldn’t deny that mankind does have an impact on the environment and climate to a degree. No doubt they would argue that the impact is insignificant. Similarly those who believe that Climate Change (as contributed by mankind via burning fossil fuels etc) – wouldn’t deny that the Earth goes through a whole host of natural changes – depending on the earth’s path, wobble, tilt + solar activity + volcanoes etc etc.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Yonason is not the first person to call you out on matters of integrity and honesty Larry.
I did it too.
Remember?
Matters of integrity and honesty are easily documented.
Your attempt to create an irrelevant ruse regarding screen names is just another reason for us to question you.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
“You crossed the line in #46. The next time you accuse someone of dishonesty, have the guts to sign your own name.”
Let me remind you, Lar, that you were the one who said, “Life is way too short to waste time talking to people who don’t understand the concept of the honest difference of opinion.” ….implying that you understand, and I don’t. I.e., you are so much wiser than I, and so much more honest, too. I just held the mirrour up so you could see yourself, you smartass dolt!
And, like I said, no sense of humor, either.
@Aye
You have a selective memory. You recall your accusations; you don’t recall my point by point rejoinder. I went though your litany of my alleged “lies,” one by one, and refuted your baseless accusation, which remains baseless.
I am a real person, with a real name, a real family, and a real reputation. I have made many thousands of public internet postings. On this particular blog, I have political views which are contrary to those held by 95% of the active participants. I can expect challenges on everything and anything, which I always get. Even were I predisposed to “lie,” I would be a fool to do so, because I could be so easily called out. Occasionally, I am wrong. I may not remember something precisely as I thought. Or else I don’t know as much as I think I know. But being wrong is not “lying.” Mike was dead wrong when he asserted that atmospheric CO2 is not increasing. But he wasn’t lying. He was simply wrong.
@yonason
When you call me a “grub” and boast about “step”(ping) on said grub, you are showing that you do not understand the concept of the honest difference of opinion. Neither does Aye. Fortunately, most people on this blog do understand said concept, and that makes it worthwhile for us in the token loyal opposition to participate.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
I’ve been reading this thread via my email notifications on my phone – so I may have missed a few things. But calling someone dishonest or attacking them rather than their argument doesn’t strengthen your points, nor does it encourage further reading. How about stating the flaws in Larry’s argument rather than calling him a liar? That’s seems to be more and more standard practice here – it’s been done to me, as well, which is fine if you want this site to be an echo chamber that doesn’t convince anyone of anything. If this is meant for Conservatives to just rant what they already believe amongst themselves, just let us know and I’ll turn my notifications off. Otherwise, cool it with the ad hominem BS, please.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
We were typing at the same time, it seems!
Agreed. I should modify my above statement that the personal attacks are becoming standard practice here by certain people.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
OK, the “Grub” comment wasn’t called for. Ya got me there.
But it is so frustrating when someone spews nonsense about things he obviously doesn’t have the facts about. That isn’t “honest” Larry.
Just because you “think” about something doesn’t mean your opinion is of equal weight to others who have made the effort to get all the facts, and actually understand them. That’s the reason engineers, who HAVE to be right, are more conservative than other “disciplines” (I use the word loosely).
It’s not about “opinion” Larry, it’s about facts, reality, hard data AND their CORRECT interpretation. Until you realize that, you will still be on the learning curve. In fact, as of yet I can’t even see that you are even on the curve.
It isn’t that you are “lying,” it’s that you are consistantly wrong, and don’t seem to give a damn about being right, or even understand what “being right” means.
Whatever happened to that missle attack on Hawaii?
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
No selective memory here.
That ruse won’t work for you either.
Your contentions have been taken apart and stacked aside with factual references repeatedly.
You made claims and they were proven false.
Now, you continue to spin.
@Cary:
You are indeed a late arrival to this thread. You are also relatively new to this site.
There are multiple documented occasions where Larry’s arguments have been taken apart with factual information yet he continues, in the face of those facts, to tell us that the truth is something else.
That’s called myth purveyance at best, lying or dishonesty at worst.
If that offends your sensibilities then that is a problem that lies with you not us, and your attempts to lecture us on what you deem to be appropriate behavior are misplaced.
Finally, every time you threaten to leave the playground you belittle yourself.
Just sayin’.
@Fit fit:
I don’t know, but here’s one on Israel by Obama’s Placentinian hordes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4210052325928719955
You know, the Arabs who have “suffered” as much as Jews in the Holacaust.
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-affirms-evil-sinister-anti-jewish.html
Obama is a sick, twisted and evil man who couldn’t give a damn about facts, but is more concerned about widely held opinions.
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-are-issues-involved-in-racist.html
And that’s a perfect example of why I don’t take folks like Larry W. seriously, people who think that just having an “opinion” justifies being taken seriously. It does NOT! Any damned fool can have an opinion, and, unfortunately, every one of them does.
For some reason this site won’t allow comments through my mobile device, don’t know why. It’s beautiful in NYC today, folks – hope you all can enjoy the weather if it’s as nice where you are!
@Aye Chihuahua:
But, Aye, Larry has an “opinion” and you have to respect that. He said so. //SARC=OFF//
@Cary:
Well, unfortunately, it’s summer here in southern Georgia. If you’ve ever been here, you’ll understand what I mean by that.
Right now, it’s 79 and cloudy with a very high level of humidity, probably near 100%. Very muggy, sticky, and miserable. Just being outside induces sweat.
Today’s high is supposed to be 94 with a heat index of 103.
I’ve got about 400 more square feet of hardwood floor to put down on my front porch. This afternoon will be no fun.
My son, the dog, and I are probably going for a swim before dark (if there is no thunderstorm).
@Aye Chihuahua:
Have a safe and fun swim.
And, before you go, if you could get my comment out of spam, that would be nice.
@Aye Chihuahua:
I’m sorry if it came of as a “lecture” – I’m just commenting as someone reading the discussion with great interest, then coming across ugly personal rhetoric which deflates my own interest when my phone buzzes me with another comment. When the discussion is good – such notification is actually exciting to receive.
I’ll take that as honest constructive criticism. It has indeed occurred to me that I can bow out of a conversation without announcing it. for whatever reason I choose. Not sure I understand why you think I’m belittling myself for it, but it’s no matter. Once I make my point, I should let it stand – sometimes I think it becomes a battle of who gets the last word – in which case I should be happy to “lose”. And as I type, I understand why THAT would be self belittling!
Anyway, I’m getting away from the computer the day – not because of anything said here, but because I need to get away from the computer!
Have a great day.
@Aye Chihuahua:
Yeah, my acting work has taken me to all but two states in the mainland, so yeah I know what you mean, though I’ve not actually been in GA this time of year, I’ve been nearby. It gets really nasty here in August with the humidity – much of my work is outdoors, too – but July is just how I like it. Have a fun swim… I expect some fire hydrants to open up on my block!
This is the problem with libs
They believe they are the end all and be all they have no understanding of a higher power they think they are the cause and effect.
And in some cases they are.
When the libs can stop an earthquake or a flood or a volcano in progress then we can talk.
I am for picking up your trash OH by the way are astronauts not garbage dumpers just ask any backyard teloscoper of all the space junk.
I don’t believe humans are causing any thing to do with weather humans still can’t even make it rain can we change salt water into fresh water yes.
500 years ago setters understood they needed to build cisterns to have drinking water and water for plants [food] yet today for some reason in Africa they can’t get their head around this?
Well their holy book tells them that they can not farm this maybe their problem.Yet this is what is taught in the old and new testament of the Bible.
So when I pull out a grub of my garden and kill it does this make me a killer or a good Gardner.
The problem with the liberal point of view they can’t tell the difference because as I once heard when Carter was President [sure that video is floating around out there in space] woman said to the press she didn’t care if the Farmers went on strike she got her food from the store?
So if you ask some of the Europeans if they felt the same way last summer when the shelves were empty because of the trucker strike Yet the lib’s keep pushing to drive all out of business again why would I want to work for free why work at all has al gore given up plane car travel no but he has gone from 170 thousand a year to being worth over 100 million in les than 10 years or terry mcaluif who invest 100 thousand in that cable company and in 10 mos had 18 million and how many people lost everything when the union pulled their money out?
What about the GM deal where State pensions lost to the fo bho ie the unions.
How many will freeze to death because bho has shut down the oil leases in Utah and offshore but opened things to his friends in Col.
More people freeze to death than from heat exposure and those people in Minn and other Northern states would like maybe 2 degrease I sure when it is 50 below.
Or that some one with the power to take you money for stupid stuff and says he is worried about GW but sends his plane to fly over NYC for a photo op so he says, but some people Know this was when People were fighting back about those GM bonds and not just going to be walked over in the end they were.
I believe that global warming is just the raping of the people a way to steal their money.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/04/27/2009-04-27_plane_stupid_mayor_bloomberg_outraged_over_military_photoop_involving_lowflying_.html
Plane stupid: Mayor Bloomberg outraged over military photo-op involving low-flying presidential jet
[Or this same guy takes 3 planes to go on a date with his wife/ No need to take the press? But telling the American People to put air in their tires and turn down their thermostat? Who’s wife tells people to not get a job but volunteer yet sits on boards making over 300 thousand a year because of who her husband is? No bho doesn’t care about even the USA]
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/the-war-against-the-producers/
July 11th, 2009 10:27 am
The War Against the Producers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/5797435/Low-energy-lightbulbs-mailed-to-British-families-that-cannot-use-them.html
Low energy lightbulbs mailed to British families that cannot use them
Hundreds of millions of old-fashioned low energy lightbulbs have been mailed to British families that often cannot use them, official documents show.
Geoffrey Lean
Published: 8:05PM BST 10 Jul 2009
Snip
The Department of Energy and Climate Change admits that it is “concerned” at the mailings – described yesterday by campaigners as a waste – and has agreed to ban them.
But it has decided not so do so for another six months to allow even more of the bulbs to be sent out – even though every home in the country has already, on average, received at least eight of them.
Snip
Light manufacturers retailers are worried that potential customers will be discouraged from buying their products.
The bulbs have been distributed by gas and electricity companies as a cheap way of meeting a Government obligation to help their customers save energy, under an official scheme called the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target.
[Now this are the same bulbs that if you break one you have to call a has mat team because of the mercury in them what happens when they end up in the land fills?
I am then reminded if a town that had no running water in comes the peace corps and digs these poor people a well nice but no follow up and the town well with lead pipes 30 years later and most of the towns people have lead poisoning and the children well you know what happens to children who get lead as baby’s?
Then I think about what is going on in the USA someone says salt is bad for you then Women cut salt out of their diet and the body needs a very important thing that is in salt called Iodine well the same result comes to children as lead poisoning why do you think there is so much ADD? Of course in the old testament it does tell you to salt all your food. Again this is something the libs have a problem with is that some who came before might have been smarter then they are?
One of the reasons that Israel was such a rich nation this is why Rome and others fought over her. Which is 1 of only 2 places in the world where the salt has natural Iodine.
Like all things some will tell you the road to Hell is paved with good intentions!]
OOPs how did that get in there
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/destinations/europe/article6676246.ece
July 11, 2009
Chernobyl offers a holiday in hell
Chernobyl’s tragic secrets are open to anyone. Just watch out for the wild boar and wolves
Catherine
These guys have an opinion, too….
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/features/6472383.html
(Talk about a ‘waste of time’.)
On randomly searching blogs by just clicking on the “next blog” link at the top of the page, I sometimes come across good stuff, like this guy [uh, gal] asking (I paraphrase) – “If the Dems’ Stinkulus is ‘working as planned’, then what the hell was the original plan?”
@yonason @aye
Do either of you have the slightest idea how much of a challenge it is to try and debate, intelligently and respectfully, on a blog where probably 98% of the readership vehemently opposes one’s points of views? Why don’t both of you take a month and try to tell the readership of the Daily Kos how all of them are liars, simply because they don’t agree with you?
This thread is a great example of the challenge faced by people like me. I’m not a “professional” blogger. I’ve got a busy life, as in the case of most people. I read the news and I read a few blogs and I like to make the odd comment — in this case, on an open thread, about an interesting survey about the political affiliation of American scientists.
I haven’t made a single false statement. I do offer an opinion — that “liberal bias” in academia is a result of self selection. This leads to a productive little discussion with Dr. D, who argues, respectfully, that there is bias in academia beyond self selection. He supports his point of view by stating that most of the engineers he knows are conservatives. I respond, but wait, I think I remember a study which shows that academic engineers are disproportionately Democrats. Eventually, I find the citation to an excellent, scholarly study which backs up my own position — namely, the best academic engineering departments in the country have faculty who are disproportionately Democrats, and these departments didn’t get to be the best by hiring and promoting based on poltical affiliations.
At some point, yonason jumps in and calls me a grub. I object, and then yonason calls me a liar. Aye jumps in and affirms yonason’s opinion that I’m a liar.
I object that I’m not a liar. Aye says, no, he’s proven in the past that I’m a liar. I strongly disagree with this assertion, referring to a thread where I called Aye out on this; he then, at the time, listed alleged “lies,” which, I am confident, I repudiated effectively. Now, Aye says, “no you didn’t” (repudiate his alleged examples of my “lies”). And now I’m supposed to utterly disrupt my work day or my evening ahead with my wife to go digging it all up and rehashing it again and again?
The next thing which must be noted is that, being incredibly outnumbered, I can’t possibly take the time to answer each and every criticism ultimately thrown down at me. What I can do is simply to make a point and perhaps take just a little time to answer one to several rejoinders. I can’t possibly take everything to the bitter end. You more committed conservative bloggers, particularly with your vastly superior numbers, will always outlast me. That’s OK, it’s a conservative blog and a conservative should get the last word.
I just don’t like being called (#1) a liar or (#2) a grub.
Neither does anything, I think, to advance the conservative agenda.
And I continue to feel that people who hide behind the cloak of an anonymous avatar do have a responsibility to be wary about smearing the reputations of those who openly exercise their First Amendment rights, under their own names, which is the only way in which the First Amendment has any important meaning.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
First, you are very much entitled to have whatever “opinion” you wish to have.
You are not, however, entitled to your very own closely tailored version of the truth.
You are not entitled to cherry pick or tweak facts that you feel support your position while selectively ignoring those that refute your position.
When you choose to repeatedly state something as fact, even after the opposite has been proven to be true, you choose to place yourself into the camp of dishonesty and you can rightfully be expected to be called out on it.
When you choose to ignore the fact that your arguments have been refuted, and then go on to continue to make those same arguments, you can expect to be called out on it.
Your state of discomfort with being called out is a self inflicted condition.
Second, I am quite sure that you are busy, as we all are. Each and every one of us have a limited number of hours in our day. How we choose to spend our self-directed time is largely up to us.
You’re no different in that regard than the rest of us.
If you don’t have time to post here, then don’t. We’ll find some way to carry on.
However, if you do choose to post here, don’t then turn around and gripe, moan, and complain about what a great inconvenience or disruption to you it is to post here.
Finally, I have already detailed for you at least once why I choose to use a pseudonym for my Internet postings. I have no intention of detailing that information for you again.
The screen names that are used here by me or anyone else are irrelevant. The name matters not one iota to the value of the argument.
In America, the tradition of writing under an assumed name goes all way back to at least the time of the Founding Fathers. If the practice was good enough for those men, it’s certainly good enough for me.
That is absolute poppycock.
Personally smearing people who are guests on a blog which you co-host, while hiding behind an assumed name, is cowardly bad manners.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
“…try to tell the readership of the Daily Kos how all of them are liars, simply because they don’t agree with you?” — Larry W.
NO! There you go again!
It is NOT because they “simply don’t agree.” It is because they are wrong, and DELIBERATELY so.
They are liars! PERIOD! They want to destroy America by turning it into a Socialist disaster. They spew falsehood after falsehood, and deserve no respect.
They are propagandists, and this comment of yours proves you don’t have a clue what the difference is between truth and opinion.
I repeat, opinions are NOT facts, and if one’s opinion contradicts facts, than it is wrong. It is OK to be wrong, BUT ….when shown the facts that disprove one’s opinion, an honest person doesn’t demand “respect” for that opinion, and it would be a lie to give it to him.
If you don’t like that, too bad.
“I just don’t like being called (#1) a liar or (#2) a grub. — Larry W.
Hey, I already appologized for the grub comment. It was a bit harsher than I should have been, ….maybe, but I’ll give you that. Just stop wriggling about, or I might be tempted to rethink that sentiment.
As to the term “liar,” well, it is a strong term (which you essentially called me first, btw), but what would YOU call someone who keeps spewing falsehoods when he’s been clearly shown to be wrong?
OH, yes, fake names are just right out…. isn’t that correct, Messrs. “Theodore Dalrymple” and “Mark Twain?”
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Again, you’re entitled to whatever opinion you wish to have related to screen names. I’m sure that King George felt much the same as you when he considered the Founders and their writings.
Can you show me how the use of a pseudonym changes the validity of the information being presented?
No? I didn’t think so.
It’s an irrelevant ruse.
@yonason:
I’d call that person an Obama voter.
just don’t like being called (#1) a liar or (#2) a grub.
Neither does anything, I think, to advance the conservative agenda.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Well at least they didn’t call you a sluty air stewardess
On national tv
Larry think you need to grow a set
Catherine
Hate whinny men
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Anyone who saves a human life deserves respect, and for that work you have mine. You should have nothing but success, for your sake but even more so for you patients’. But, Larry, please stick to curing cancer. If you’re good at that, then you have my deepest respect, …for that.
Your political ideas, however, are bubkes.
@aye
No, it’s not irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with offering political opinions from the comfort and safety of a pseudonym. I think it’s a dreadful waste of one’s First Amendment rights, but to each his own. However, it’s cowardly bad manners for a blog host, hiding behind such a pseudonym, to offer personal smears to a blog guest who is a real person, with a real family, and a real reputation.
@yonason
I won’t take this libel from you, either. A lie is a statement known by the purveyor of the lie to be untruthful, in a willful attempt to deceive. A lie is not a statement believed to be true. It is also not a lie when someone makes a statement, believed to be true, only to have the statement challenged, and then for one to repeat the statement, because one does not accept the nature of the challenge. It is also not a lie when someone makes a statement, is challenged effectively, but happens not to have read the challenge, because one cannot follow each and every thread through to the bitter end.
Here was your complete statement:
Now, I NEVER called you a liar. I never intended to do so. I don’t believe that you, or Aye, or anyone else on this blog which whom I’ve exchanged facts and opinions is a liar, either.
Here’s the original transcript of what I wrote, concerning this:
Now, I was simply stating that it is tedious and tiresome to try and have a civil discussion with people who cannot accept the premise that otherwise honorable people can have fundamental disagreements which are simply honest differences of opinion and not reflections relating to character. I did NOT intend to accuse you of any dishonesty whatsoever and I sincerely apologize if you took it this way.
With regard to the Daily Kos suggestion, I was simply making that point that it’s far easier to be an internet bully when one is supported by a band of brothers than when one is all alone, in an environment which is hostile to one’s own opinions and positions.
It doesn’t have to be the Daily Kos (which I’ve not read more than once or twice, by the way); it could be any left of center blog — pick some liberal equivalent of Flopping Aces. Now go there for a month and try to take and defend your positions there, as I try to do here. For a little more excitement, try to call the bloggers and commentators there “liars.”
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Well, you may be in trouble. Like Jerry Jeff Walker, I like my women just a tad on the trashy side
LW/HB
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I’m still looking for the part where the screen name attached to the post changes the factual validity and value of the information presented.
Conspicuously, that part is still missing.
I’ve weighed your opinion against the proven, first hand knowledge that I have regarding the value and necessity of Internet anonymity and I find that your position comes up lacking.
As for “wasting” my free speech rights, I find that amusing because in “real life” I am quite vocal. I am a regular contributor to several newspapers. I am a regular commentator on matters of politics in my city, county, and state. I speak before civic organizations on matters of politics and American history and heritage (specifically the Founders) quite often.
I simply choose not to use the Internet to paint a target on my family and those around me for a worldwide audience of marksmen.
As you’ve said before, I’ll leave it to the readers here to determine my credibility.
Been there. Done that. Still do.
In most cases, the people on those boards are not at all interested in having an honest conversation or debate.
On multiple occasions, I have been banned simply for expressing an opposing opinion and that’s cool if that’s the game they want to play. Their playground, their game, their rules.
FA is radically different in that respect. We tolerate, and yes, even encourage, dissent here. Unless they prove to be simply overwhelmingly disruptive we rarely toss anyone out.
Your continued presence here, as well as that of Fit fit, cRAP (Sky55110), Richard, Wes Morgan, et. al. is a testament to Curt’s position as well as the collective position of the authors and contributors on this site.
Hey this isn’t my fight, but I’m gonna add my two cents anyway.
You guys are nuts to run Larry off of this board (although I suspect he can well take the heat). Do you have any idea how dull some of these discussions would be without a good (and very respectful), liberal such as Larry?
Quite honestly, when Larry and Mata (who is also just as respectful), go at it, it’s truly debate at its finest. IMHO, great debaters require three things: erudition, respectfulness, and the courage to go for the jugular (respectfully of course). I don’t want to sound sappy, but honestly, one of the last big debates between Larry and Mata, was simply “melodic”.
If I were one of the big network or cable guys, I would do whatever it took to get Larry and Mata to be my political pundits. I am certain they would out rate any of the gasbags currently on cable or the major networks.
I like all of you guys, but I like you a lot better when you lay off the ad hominem attacks and just debate the issues. I also agree with Larry (as I have also posted in the past), personal attacks do nothing to add to the conservative movement.
My advice: know and appreciate a good liberal when you have one- and be kind! And for the record, Larry is not a liar, just a liberal (they don’t think like us, remember)!
UPDATE: Aye, to put Larry in the same catagory as above mention is not only unfair, but most disappointing.
@pdill:
I’m not sure which category you are referring to.
If you’re referring to my analysis regarding Larry’s honesty and integrity during some of the discussions here, I will have to disagree with you.
Larry has, by and large, always been a respectful and worthy debate opponent. When he engages in deception, however, I feel compelled to call him out on it.
Whether it be his false representations regarding Adam Smith or his ridiculous assertion that Obama has put forth no position or policy which can be categorized as socialism or Marxism, appropriate scorn is more than warranted.
During our prior discussions I presented a wide variety of fact and evidence support my positions, as well as to disprove his, and he chose to simply ignore everything I said.
If you’d like links to what I am speaking of I can provide them for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Jeff_Walker
Jerry Jeff Walker (born March 16, 1942) is a country music singer.
Walker was born Ronald Clyde Crosby
After high school, Crosby joined the National Guard, but his thirst for adventure led him to go AWOL and roam the country busking for a living in New Orleans and throughout Texas, Florida, and New York. He played mostly ukulele until Harriet Ottenheimer, one of the founders of The Quorum, got him settled on a guitar in 1963. He adopted his stage name “Jerry Jeff Walker” in 1966. He spent his early folk music days in Greenwich Village in the mid 1960s.
AWOL no not my type
And too old.
Did you just call me a little trashy?
Well another democrat takes a walk on the wild side?
http://www.wabcradio.com/news.asp?c=5145&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhosted%2Eap%2Eorg%2Fdynamic%2Fstories%2FU%2FUS%5FSENATOR%5FINVESTIGATION%5FTRIAL%3FSITE%3DWABCAM%26SECTION%3DHOME%26TEMPLATE%3DDEFAULT
Former Pa. senator gets 55 months for corruption
July 14, 2009
snip
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A federal judge has sentenced former Pennsylvania Sen. Vince Fumo to 55 months in prison for corruption convictions
snip
U.S. District Judge Ronald Buckwalter departed down from the guideline range of about 10 to 20 years, citing Fumo’s public service.
snip
A jury this year found the long-powerful Philadelphia Democrat misused millions in state and nonprofit assets.
OH MY
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/14/auto-czar-leaves-washington-cloud-pay-play-investigation/
Auto Czar Leaves Washington Amidst Pay-to-Play Probe Involving Former Firm
The peculiar timing of Steven Rattner’s departure as White House car czar has raised questions about the course of an investigation that has scrutinized his possible dealings with the New York state pension fund.
Yep as they steal our money and the judges feel sorry for these a-h don’t use guidelines what a bunch of crap
Catherine
To Aye:
Thanks but I don’t need any links. May I suggest that you consider the fact(s) that you are dealing with someone who is not only a product of the 60’s, but academia? For this group, at least politically, ideology trumps facts.
But to be fair, we are all guilty, at the very least of “being firm in our beliefs.” As much as we are convinced that “our beliefs” are grounded in truth, so do the liberals.
The nice thing about Larry is not only his intelligence, but unlike most liberals, he’s not all emotional and insulting. He actually, intelligently, makes a case. That’s why it’s so much fun to watch Mata knock over all his blocks!
Now Aye, have you ever honestly believed that you were going to change the mind of any liberal on this board? If you don’t mind my saying so, I think you and Mike especially feel like losers when you don’t. If that’s your goal, who am I to try and change it?
The way I see good debate is more for the benefit of others. There’s always someone, usually the lurkers who don’t post, who are open to change. For them, facts DO matter, which is why YOU matter, and why this board matters, regardless if you convert Larry or not.
All said, few people will “stay tuned” when things get personal. How often do you shut off a TV when they all start shouting over each other? It’s the same with blogging.
As Missy pointed out in another thread, many of us feel very lucky, self included, having a board with this level of intellect. The two things that attracted me to FA was firstly the intellect, and secondly, the lack of mudslinging so common on other boards. Now of course, I wouldn’t miss a Larry/Mata debate for anything. That’s not to say that I don’t appreciate the debates of other authors here; only that like a fine symphony, I prefer to hear only the music.
Lastly, while I would label Larry a “unique liberal”, who isn’t all reactionary and full of ‘Janeane Garofalo’ lies. IMO, Larry’s the George Bernard Shaw of blogosphere political debate, with Mata being ‘the Chesterton’. In fact, perhaps a little ‘Shaw/Chesterton’ can put the appreciation I suggest into a better perspective, realizing that even though I don’t put Larry in the “liar and reactionary” camp, he still represents the liberal POV to all reactionary liberals who are watching and reading.
Bottom line, as good intentioned as I know Larry to be, it doesn’t discount the fact that his left leaning ideas are dangerous. To his credit, he’s admitted that much of what we currently debate will be objectively obvious soon enough. Our job, as conservatives, is to just keep the truth flowing. What better way is there to do that than to intelligently debate the left, especially a rare, intelligent, respectful, well meaning liberal?
As for truth, unlike left ideology, it’s timeless!
can someone get me out of spam? Thanks
@pdill:
First, I appreciate the time you took to compose such a well reasoned, thoughtful response.
My goal when I post and respond to comments here is not “winning” but, the presentation of fact and the vigorous, unapologetic defense of the truth.
When anyone comes here and presents mythical information, regardless of how cleverly or clumsily presented, it is incumbent upon all of us to confront those myths and point out why they are wrong.
I don’t necessarily present the Conservative viewpoint in an effort to convince those with whom I am debating. Many, if not most of them, are so deeply entranced and have their blinders so firmly strapped on that they will never be convinced.
It is, as you noted, the lurkers, the casual passers by that benefit the most. In my mind, those people may be dabbling in the issues trying to get a feel for what is correct. They may be trying to get a feel for where they stand on things, trying to get their legs under them, etc.
It is rare that I simply label someone, and it is never done without much consideration.
However, when someone presents a viewpoint, has that view soundly and undeniably refuted by fact and then goes on to continue to peddle that as the truth, it’s time to call it what it is.
I am not hesitant to correct the record regardless of who posted the information in question. I, as the other authors here, have corrected/confronted information coming from all ranges of the political spectrum.
A vigorous defense of the truth demands it.
I sorry to say that I have no musical talent; I’m more of a saw, hammer, chisel, and nails kind of guy.
Beautiful woodworking requires all of those things.
So do pianos.
Again, thank you for your response.
Thanks Aye. Certainly nothing wrong with men with toolbelts! I’m kind of fond of them myself.
I said all that I really want to say on this, as I only came to the fight with one bullet. I’m with you all the way on a uncompromising defense of the truth. My biggest point was that you have so much to offer, why waste the time in trying to change what you can’t?
The passion is necessary, the personal part, not so much. I say let’s move on with the good fight, never forgetting that hard core liberals are never changed by logic and facts. It’s only our job to keep truth alive, even if it means repeating it over and over and over….
LARRY W. = GAFFAUK LITE?
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
No, Larry. I don’t need a kindergarten exercise in how to empathize with someone who’s Leftist sentiments I don’t share, and never will. I don’t play the “how would you feel if you were a victim” game. I don’t do “victim.”
Also, I don’t go to blogs to “debate,” but to get and sometimes provide factual information. I write posts as an excercise to help me incorporate that information into my world view, which is (hopefully) constantly evolving. The Left has nothing to offer. Why would I take time away from getting useful information, simply in order to associate with people who hate me and have nothing to offer but fantasy based failure?
Be that as it may, if you want to waste your time trying to pursuade us of things we already know (not just believe) to be false, that’s your business. But don’t go inviting me to waste my time on an exercise in futility. I don’t trust the judgement of people who confuse ‘wasting time’ with ‘productive activity’. And don’t be surprised if some of us haven’t the patience for your condescending, pedantic and nearly always long-winded pablum.
You know, it’s kind of sadly ironic (not to mention extremely puzzling) how someone who treats cancer in individuals is not only unable to diagnose a cancer of the body politic, but seeks to enable and advance it.
PDill, he repeatedly and strongly claimed obama would govern from the center and that his pickes were moderates. Now that he has been proven to be tremendously wrong, he wants to pretend he never made such claims.
Now he wants to play victim because people challenge the fantasy based statements he makes and call him out when he’s dishonest. I have zero sympathy for him. I could care less if he goes elsewhere to whine.
BTW larry…
Is obama governing from the center? Were his picks moderate?
@Hard Right:
What I especially love is Larry’s use of the “Woe is me, I don’t have time” and the “Everybody’s ganging up on me” excuses.
He’s got time to be here posting on new threads on new topics and stirring up new batches of stink but, oddly enough, doesn’t seem to have the time to post on the threads where he previously stirred up batches of stink. Sometimes he’s even on new threads stirring up fresh batches of stink when he’s previously stirred the same thing elsewhere.
I find that particularly amusing.
PS… I’d love to hear him explain how the new Science Czar is “moderate” or even remotely mainstream. After all, this guy is an advocate of forced abortions, adoption against the will of the natural mother, and a proponent of sterilants being added to drinking water.
For that matter, I’d love to hear him explain how the appointment of nearly 20 unaccountable, unanswerable czars is not an end run around the Constitution and the checks/balances established therein.
You nailed it Aye.
While I had gradually grown to only dislike his opinions, that is no longer the case. He is just a typical liberal.
The only decent liberal leaner we have on this site IMHO is Cary. While I don’t agree with about half of what she says, I can at least respect her.
Whoa!!! Hey don’t think for a minute I’m defending Larry’s position (s). Once in a blue moon, while we might have a slight partial agreement on an issue, for the most part, I hold his and most liberal positions to be extremely dangerous.
Hard Right, I too a few weeks ago reminded Larry that he was wrong about the “center government.” I assumed it was a “given.” Does he need to make a formal FA mea copa? Just asking.
Aye that czar thing (which totally freaks me out), is even worse. Last count was up to THIRTY TWO! Do you know that these “czars” make an average of $170,000 with scores of staffers, costing us millions for what equates to nothing more than “Obama bullies?”
What I do think would be helpful from Larry would be to give his expert opinion of the healthcare bill (an updated option). I wonder Larry if you realize that all of the FOCA stuff that got put on hold, as expected, as all things Obama go in through the back door, is now in the “healthcare reform.”
Is everyone aware that this bill includes everything from mandated funded abortion, the OVERRIDING OF STATE RIGHTS IN SOME CASES, copious new abortion centers, to “street lights” (the sage thinking is, (are you ready?), lighted streets will facilitate more evening walking, consequently, a more “fit” America. And to go behind that door, there is also funding for “Farmers Market” in the plan.
We are in SOOOOO much trouble if healthcare and Cap and Trade Pass.
So yes, I do think Larry it would be nice if you would address the “stealth” abortion and pork issues in the health bill.
For the record, I predicted last summer, before Obama was even elected, that if elected, we would go immediately into socialism with the GOAL to bankrupt America. It’s all out of the Alinsky playbook, along with “create so much going on (i.e, huge bills that no one even reads), that IN THE CONFUSION, it all gets passed before we know what hit us.
I personally think we should take to the streets NOW. After healthcare passes, it’s too late.
Forms are at the bottom of this link re: the stealth abortion proposals
http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/issues/alert/?alertid=13157881&type=CO
Damn. Spam monster got me. I’m off to sacrifice a can of SPAM to see if that placates the thing.
@ Larry
Larry, like Aye, I’ve posted a couple of times on leftie blogs. HuffPo and Talking Points. I was removed from the thread at HuffPo and Talking Points. Seems the left would rather not have anyone contradict their opinions.
I’d like to point one more thing out about academia and liberals. It is my opinion and I openly admit it is my opinion, that most people that work and produce are actually conservative. Academics would rather sit around and tell those of us that do produce why we’re destroying the world and how we could do things better. We see this being brought to light by the Obama admin right now. Just look at how things are going at GM. It’s easy to sit back and tell a company all the evils they are responsible for. Now that Obama has to run the place, his theories aren’t working out very well for him.
Just a thought.
@pdill:
“…lighted streets will facilitate more evening walking,…”
…street ligts powered by….. all that smoke and mirrors in Washington? We aren’t building new generators, and the ones we have won’t be allowed to run on real fuel, and we won’t have enough energy to cool (or heat) our homes, but we’ll have plenty of energy to burn in order to light up the night when most normal working people are sleeping so they can…. oh, right, they won’t be working under O’Blunder, so they won’t need to worry about staying up late. My bad.
Oh, and one more thing. Larry accused me of calling him a “liar.” I didn’t. I merely implied that he wasn’t being sufficiently “honest.”
And, no, that is not sophistry.
Consider a Dr. who misdiagnoses or mistreats a patient. How does that Dr. explain himself to that patient, or, G-d forbid, to his next of kin? “I made an ‘honest’ mistake.” Of course the Dr didn’t “lie” to the patient when he mislead him, he was just exhibiting gross negligence. …which is why I can’t understand why someone who’s supposedly a very careing and careful physician can’t be bothered to be careful when it comes to his political “opinions,” which affect every one of his fellow citizens.
When the negative consequences of the political opinions Larry espouses cause suffering, or worse, (they already are, and it’s going to get a lot worse) will he invoke the GaffaUK defense and say, “I was just ‘debating’, and besides, it was an ‘honest’ mistake.”?
From the Gaffer I don’t expect any better, but from a physician who’s been trained to think responsibly, I do.
So, what I meant was not that Larry is a liar, but that his “honesty” leaves a LOT to be desired.
I can see Larry in Med School…
Exam Question – How does one treat a gunshot to the thigh?
Larry’s Answer – “Rub his neck with Aloe Vera, and prescribe aspirin.”
Hey, his “opinion” is as good as anyone elses, ….right?
I hope his malpractice insurance is paid up, and that he has LOTS of it.
You know, maybe someone should write to the Doc in the link “Larry” gives and ask him if he’s really the one posting to FA, or if someone has stolen his identity, because there’s a logical disconnect here, and that could explain it.
NOTE – over at Alan Caruba’s excellent website, commentor Rich Kozlovich makes my case for me…
His comment was addressing the significance of one of O’Blanko’s “moderate” lunatics, Dr. John Holdren.
MINDLESS, HEARTLESS, DESTRUCTIVE – AN INEXORABLE FORCE OF NATURE – DEMOCRATS GONE WILD
But, hey, that’s just one man’s “opinion.”
@yonason:
From your link, I can hardly wait! sarc!
Someone made a comment on FOX & Friends this morning. They quoted a Congress critter critiquing the dems in charge, went something like this…… “this all reminds me of a 14 year old boys bedroom, a mess.”
@Missy:
LOL! “…14 year old boys bedroom…” Yeah, and playing with matches, and fireworks, too.