Fit: The mullahs serve at the will of the people. …. snip…. I’m not sure the majority of people in Iran want to overthrow their government, they just want their system to work the way it’s supposed to.

You can’t possibly be this uninformed, Fit. The Iranians want an “Islamic theocracy/democracy”? Typical western uneducated thought is what you aptly demonstrate… convenient talking points perhaps?

Try again: And for you prozac laden O’faithful, please note this is dated epoch “PO”… as in “PRE OBAMA”. The world did – and does not – start and stop with the big Zero. And the Iranian youth didn’t magically become disenchanted with their government when Obama preached to the Middle East.

It is, thus, not surprising that a Gallup survey conducted during the years 2005 and 2006 indicated that only 12 percent of Iranians are now willing to put legislation directly in the hands of religious leaders, while another 26 percent think that religious leaders should only act as advisors to legislative bodies, and a majority of 56 percent believe that they should have no role at all in legislation.[1] This is despite indications that most Iranians are still deeply religious. In fact, a 2007 Gallup survey concluded that while today only 14% of Iranians believe that Islam’s principles, values, and ethics should act as the only source of legislation, a majority of 63% still want these values and principles to be a source of legislation, but not the only source.[2]

The above survey indicates that Iranians still want their Islamic values and principles to have at least some influence on legislation. Their ideal mechanism of this proposed influence, however, has clearly changed. Not long ago Iranians regarded their religious clergy as expert Islamic jurists – the very best men to turn to in matters of Islamic law and justice. The general understanding used to be that as laymen who had no extensive understanding of Islamic law, the members of the Shi’ite community had to accept the decrees of their scholars of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) in matters of Islamic jurisprudence. Now, however, most seem unwilling to endorse their Fuqaha (scholars of jurisprudence) and Mujtahidin (scholars of Islamic judgment) as legislators. This suggests that not many Iranians now see the decrees of these religious leaders as representative of true Islam. This may be, to a great extent, due to the fact that Iranians have largely reconsidered their mode of religiosity.

A research conducted by Abdolmohammad Kazemipur and Ali Rezaei concludes that between 1975 and 2001 Iranians dramatically shifted from organized to personalized religion and from a practice-centered mode of religiosity to a belief-centered one.[3] For a country whose people arose, during the late 1970s, to uphold Islam as the foundation of their collective identity and the basis of their system of government, this amounts to nothing less than a complete U-turn.

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@Aye Chihuahua:

Have a great swim. My childhood watering hole (probably no swimmers due to autumn, but summers were very crowded)

Wow, they even have a photo of one of my childhood fishin holes.
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2936642.jpg
See the ice? Once in mid June there was still ice on those rocks, despite air temps in the 70′s. It’s a south side, in the shade of the bridge.

And now I live in Florida. No comparison, scenerywise, though politically it’s a lot closer to my liking.

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@yonason:

There may be blame to go around on the whole Gulf War I thing, but, if I remember correctly, the UN mandate specifically excluded marching on to Baghdad to remove Saddam. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong….I am too short on time to research it at this moment. (The children, the dog, and I are about to go down to the river to swim.)

In any case, George, Sr. should have supported the Kurds as well as the other groups who showed the courage to rise up against Saddam. That support could have been overt or covert.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat and many ways to solve a problem. Leaving those people to twist in the wind, often literally, is a black mark that the US will bear for a long time.

We started that bad habit way back when Jefferson was president. Jefferson’s representative, Tobias Lear, left the citizens of Derne to the brutal mercies of the Bashaw of Tripoli even though they had risen up and helped us in seizing the city. Our forces, including the first US Marines, literally snuck out of the city under cover of darkness leaving them to their own devices.

Can you imagine how much easier our current engagement in Iraq would have been if the populace had not been trying to play both sides of the loyalty fence in and effort to see if we, the US, would stick with them to the end?

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It may be just as well that O’Bungler doesn’t encourage them.

After Gulf War the first, the Kurds and other Iraqis began revolting. George Sr., encouraged them. Thinking the the USA would come to their aid, they opposed Saddam. They lost, and many died, and America didn’t lift a finger to help until nearly a decade later. At least the Iranians will have nothing to feel betrayed about.

(I blame Colonitis Powell, who advised Bush Sr. to stop before we had ousted Saddam, and so naturally Saddam thought he had won. Powell probably advised him not to back up his encouragement with action, as well.)

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The mullahs serve at the will of the people. Kings and dictators and anyone “holding” power serves at the will of the people. The power really always lies with the people, they only have to realize it.

I’m not sure the majority of people in Iran want to overthrow their government, they just want their system to work the way it’s supposed to.

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@Fit fit:

You really are a dullard aren’t you?

Do you really believe that the uprising we are seeing in the streets of Iran is going to overthrow the mullahs? The whole story in Iran is about the mullahs…..it’s always been about the mullahs. They are the men behind the proverbial curtain.

If the US had taken a more active role, both overtly and covertly, then perhaps the protesters would have had the courage to rise up, reach for the golden ring, overthrow the theocracy, and thus truly take control of their own future.

There will be no positive comparison from your point of view between the regime change in Iraq and the “regime change” in Iran.

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Hussein picked Amadinejhad’s side so the mullahs would give him a deal on nukes?? No. Hussein sided with this little thug because the Saudi King–one of Hussein’s biggest contributors–told him to. Don’t need any more damned democracies in the middle east were undoubtedly the Kings thoughts.

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It will be nice to have the comparison/contrast between Bush’s Iraqi regime change and Obama’s Iranian regime change.

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@Aye Chihuahua:

“How successful would the American Experiment have been without the involvement and assistance of outside forces?”

Heck, if it weren’t for lots of foreign help, why, we’d probably still be speeking English. Uh…., well, ….you know what I mean.

But, seriously, you shouldn’t ask a rhtorical question like that and expect Lefties to “get it.” If they are anything like Obama, they don’t even know how many states there are.

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@Fit fit:

The Iranians don’t need Obama or anyone else to do anything but watch as they take their own country back for themselves. They are going to do this.

Right…..because fledgling democracies, especially in the Middle East, have such a great track record of success without nurturing from the outside.

Exit question:

How successful would the American Experiment have been without the involvement and assistance of outside forces?

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