[...] it would cause more mayhem. But mayhem happened anyway….as Mataharley noted in her most excellent comment here: As time has revealed, and as I predicted (or as you put it, in my “defense”), all of the [...]

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Triz:

Well, not exactly – had this happened in the first few days of the protests the results could have been quite different; this far into it the Ayatollahs statements are having little resonance with the public.

There ya go with the sewage crystal ball and parallel universe crap again, guy. At the first sign of brutality aimed at the demonstrators was the first opportunity for the world to speak up.

Yet you continue to tout that had Obama said anything, all this “tragic” stuff would happened on a worse scale, and the US would be blamed.

I don’t know how to break this to you… or you could read my latest post… but all this tragic stuff DID happen and Obama didn’t speak up. They blamed the US, even when Obama didn’t speak up.

But then, Obama’s a fool. For as I pointed out in my latest post, Iran *always* blames the US for everything. To believe that Messianic diplomacy and not rendering harsh criticism would break that age old Iranian game for years is truly the height of stupidity. Obama’s for believing it, and your’s for buying into the spin.

This BS is just a way to try and make Obama’s not look the fool on the world stage. And there are many on both sides of the political aisle playing that game. It still, however, does not make them diplomatically correct. And we know for sure they are not morally correct.

But then… that’s part of leadership. Something Obama is reluctant to do because of popularity repercussions.

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Radio Farda and VOA Persia have existed before the Democracy Promotion program – it’s naive to think that is our only effort within Iran. Here‘s a great op-ed from the WSJ with actual ideas on what Obama can do to help the opposition; I pretty much agree with all of them (although calling Moussavi is a risk).

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@trizzlor: ” No one really knows what the democracy promotion program set out to do, “ and yet you say you “support covert aid to the opposition to keep them on their feet and spread their message. ”

Obviously SOME support is better than none at all.

And it certainly does not hurt to have Farsi broadcasts from the Voice of America.

But if Obama terminates most or all of that support what is left?

Clearly, your messiah cares more for currying favor from the Mullahs than he does for supporting the Iranian people in their quest for freedom.

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@Mike’s America: I support covert aid to the opposition to keep them on their feet and spread their message (with lessons learned from Afghanistan in the 80′s), but this is something Obama obviously shouldn’t be public about. No one really knows what the democracy promotion program set out to do, how much was spent, etc. and I doubt it was our only involvement with Iran (nor it hasn’t even officially been de-funded yet). MataHarley offered military action in Eastern Europe as a model – I don’t think that’s wise and I doubt the Iranians are even interested, but I’m not “bashing” conservatives. Even Solidarity is an apples to oranges comparison. Your “alternative” seems to be to just cheer louder.

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@trizzlor: “As for the democracy initiative, the more I read about it the more it seems like a boondoggle, “

So basically you have NO alternative to offer. Nothing for the Iranian people. Zero, Zip, Nada!

Yeah, and meanwhile, you people falsely bash conservatives for suggesting that we want to use this crisis to invade Iran.

Get real.

Obama is doing NOTHING to support the men and women dying in the streets while he continues, even today, to suggest legitimacy and “respect” for the Iranian regime.

It has become clear whose side he is on and if you were honest, you’d be embarrassed by his performance.

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As a side note, I hope things calm down for you with work. Personally, I look forward to your responses and am no longer surprised at how well-reasoned they always are . I have a lot of respect for you guys in taking so much time to keep informed and humor these anonymous tug-of-wars. I can see the image you have of the President, and it’s certainly a frightening one. Considering a lot of our arguments are really just based on assumed motivations (consider the reaction to Bush or Obama capturing Bin Laden), I hope we both move towards the middle in that regard.

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As time has revealed, and as I predicted (or as you put it, in my “defense”), all of the above comes to fruition *without* Obama demonstrating any balls in leadership.

Well, not exactly – had this happened in the first few days of the protests the results could have been quite different; this far into it the Ayatollahs statements are having little resonance with the public. Like I said, the opposition is standing strong without our direct involvement, either through Obama’s skill or dumb luck.

I’m glad you think that merely cheering louder isn’t the only solution here, but I don’t see the Iranians asking for the kind of military “liberation” that you mention in our previous conflicts. Conflating Eastern Europe’s response to liberalism (in the classical sense) with that of the Middle East is what cost us so much in Iraq. The history of our relationship with Iran is obviously different to that of Poland (for example), particularly in the distinction that Iranians think we’ve intervened too much in the past while the Polish thought we had done too little. Nor had we called Poland evil, threatened to topple their regime, and then invaded their neighbor with mixed results. Never mind the fact that Reagan had been speaking out against a foreign super-power holding Poland hostage, rather than an internal political struggle. All things said, you’d be hard pressed to find an Iranian (opposition or not) who wants the kind of help that you’re prescribing. As for covert operations and structural support for the opposition, there’s a fine line to walk (see: Al Qaeda), but the less Obama says publicly about that the better.

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As for the democracy initiative, the more I read about it the more it seems like a boondoggle, with half the money going to things we’re already doing through VOA and the other half completely unaccounted for. You’ll have to excuse me for not trusting Newsmax to tell the full story here, but if that is the case – that the program was effective anti-regime activity, then it’s clearly stupid and a mistake for Obama/congress to de-fund it.

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Thanks for posting on the Democracy Initiative cuts, Mike. Missy sent me the link on Saturday, but I had no time to do a follow up. And obviously even less time to read and catch up on all your other FA’s author’s posts.

To repeat triz’s comment #17 INRE the Bush initiative:

trizzlor: This program, or what we know of it, looks like a good thing reminiscent of Voice of America broadcasts that were very effective in the USSR. It’s great that Bush funded it, and I would be very surprised if it or something like it does not continue under Obama, as this is a fairly typical approach to non-allied isolationist regimes.

Well, triz… I guess we can all count you as “very surprised” that Obama does not continue what we all agree is a good and historically effective program.

I, however, am not in the least bit surprised. I guess I saw thru him more quickly than you. And I am filled with “hope” that you are beginning to see you’ve had the wool pulled over your eyes by this man who’s not worthy of being the WH janitor.

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@MataHarley: “I miss George Bush, dang it all. That man didn’t sit on the fence when it came to freedom and basic human rights in these nations. “

Amen to that.

And I did post on the cuts to the program supporting Iranian democracy yesterday:

http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/06/21/obama-cut-funding-for-iranian-freedom-activists/

Just like Obama is cutting missile defense at the very time North Korea is threatening to shoot missiles at Hawaii, he seems to be completely out of phase with what is needed NOW to address current problems.

Obama really does seem more interested in currying favor with the Mullahs than he does in supporting the protesters. We have the best opportunity since the Islamic revolution 30 years ago to get rid of this evil regime and Obama is sitting on the sidelines.

You’re right that he is not a leader. He is a follower.

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