@Mike

I’m not bitter against Christians – I have no reason to be but I would agree that I’m scornful of their views in a similar way you are scornful of those who hold liberal views etc. I am actually interested in what they believe and why – because their views vary, questioning our existence and how it affects our daily lives is a natural human trait. I haven’t made up my mind entirely that there is no God (although I pretty much 90% in that camp) – it’s just that I see no evidence of it – certainly not of a Christian God or Allah etc. Is there something else after this? Maybe.

I don’t mind those who quietly keep their religion to themselves – but when those of ‘faith’ try to affect politics and everyone’s else’s lives because of their religious views then these views can and should be held up for scrutiny to the same degree as any other political view. And if it’s fair game for those to try and convert non-believers to believe in God then the reverse should be ok in a free society. But I don’t believe my non-religious or political views like any one else’s here on this forum will really profoundly change anyone’s views. It’s debate for debate sake. It can be fun, makes you think and research whilst learning about other’s views. It’s when those of opposite views are the first to turn to personal insults that you know they lost the argument.

So with the environment and Climate Change debate I suggest we don’t raise the issue of God unless people want their views to have the same degree of scrutiny that is given to Climate Change.

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@ruaqtpi2

The order of events in the biblical creation story is very similar to what physicists have described during the big bang

Is it?! Firstly which version of the biblical creation story are you refering to – the Bible mentions two which contradict.
Genesis 1:1-31 with Genesis 2:4-25

As for very similar…

(1:1-2:3) The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3), sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite.

(1:3-5, 14-19) “Let there be light”
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn’t make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be “the evening and the morning” on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/1.html

It’s not actually very similar at all.

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@GaffaUK: It’s your right to believe or not believe whatever you want. But you have such a bitter, scornful attitude towards those who do not share your views in this area.

It isn’t that you are interested in why they believe what they believe. Clearly you have made up your mind. Your goal is to plant doubt in the minds of others.

Why and for what purpose?

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I have some doubts about the existence of God, but there are a couple of very interesting things that keep me from being an absolute atheist:

- The order of events in the biblical creation story is very similar to what physicists have described during the big bang.

- The very people who stand to gain from debunking Jesus (the orthodox Jews) do not deny his existence. They describe him as a prophet who performed “tricks.”

Admittedly, that’s a rather thin set of circumstances, but for me it’s enough to keep me leaning toward Jesus being a messenger of God (in whatever form “God”
exists.) Archaeological records support much of the New Testament, and I believe that The Old Testament is a compilation of stories, some quite possibly of devine nature, written primarily as a “field guide” for living well.

BUT, I do NOT believe that we should simply leave everything, including tough decisions, in God’s hands. We do ourselves and our future generations a huge disservice if we are not faithful stewards of the earth. Ecology is a complex system of systems, with a great deal of interdependence, and we simply do not know enough about the earth’s resiliency and ability to compensate for high levels of consumption of it’s resources.

I’m all for progress (I’m engineer, for cryin’ out loud!), but I think we need to be frugal with the planet’s resources, and we should attempt to replace these resources as much as possible, with an end goal of sustainable progress.

Jeff V

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@Mike

Hate is a strong word which I wouldn’t use to describe my feelings towards religion (although I guess it depends which religion and which context). I don’t hate it – just think it’s a big shame how it generally – with notable exceptions – has held back progression. I don’t hate God as I don’t believe there is a God. I think there maybe something more to this life but I have seen no such evidence of such wishful thinking and what I seen of religion it doesn’t add up. My feelings on Satan – again I don’t believe there is some guy in red with horns etc who does evil. Humans do good or evil – they don’t need Gods, fallen angels etc to tempt us.

And no I don’t believe Jesus is the son of God. I think he was probably an ordinary man who started a cult that grew to be a big global religion due to various events. Similar to Islam really in that respect. If there was a God then we wouldn’t need belief as we would all know. Kids don’t have to guess that there is a teacher or some form of higher authority – where they spend time arguing about what form that would take. They know there is a teacher because they can see and interact with that teacher. With free will they can choose whether or not to listen and learn from that teacher.

Anyway whether you are skeptic or not on man-made climate change – I believe it is in our own hands that we control the fate of mankind as opposed to some higher being.

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@GaffaUK: Why do you hate religion so much? Do you hate God as well? How do you feel about Satan? Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?

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@ Mike
This is a debating forum and God was mentioned in this debate so its’ fair game. Of course I believe in what I say – and as for tripe – I’m still interested in hearing what bits of the Bible you choose to believe as I know you take the pick and mix route.
I don’t have the figures as to what proportion of scientists believe in Climate Change as opposed to God. Would be interesting to know.

@So cal

You can ask Him anything you’d like!

How do I do that if I don’t believe in a Judeo-Christian God, Allah, Zeus, the Tooth Fairy or any other such man-made made up baloney? Do I pretend and speak in tongues?

As for the environment – I believe there are people on both sides trying to mislead folks for the purpose of power and control–and money in their pockets. Do you think Exxon are objective? I think there are some out there who may misinterpret (purposefully or not) data, exaggerate and come up with half-cracked solutions that will either never happen or are a small drop in the ocean. But energy conservation is important and whilst debate should not be stiffled – if this happening then there needs to be better science and consensus – i.e. let’s take the extremes out of this if we can – I don’t think we need to sit on hands and see what God does or frighten everyone with images that border on Waterworld to make progress on this.

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@GaffaUK:
[I don’t think we get to vote on who has the final word do we?]
Gaffa, the word vote was used metaphorically, which I guess you already knew.

[And if God has the final word - do we ask him?]
You can ask Him anything you’d like!

[And which God would that be?]
Not to insult anyone here, but it’s my belief that there’s only one. Since I’m of the Christian faith, that would be the Judeo-Christian God. Thankfully, though, we live in a country where we are free to worship whichever god we choose, and I respect that right of others who differ with me.

I think that there are many who deceive groups of people through fear and misleading information. I think these are false religions. I think that this is the goal of the leaders of the climate change/global warming following, is to mislead folks for the purpose of power and control–and money in their pockets! I know they don’t call it a religion, but for many, I think it has evolved into that. Does that mean I don’t think we should be conscientious of the environment? No. Of course we should do all we can realistically do to protect it, and use it in beneficial ways at the same time.

By the way, I don’t fear God in the way it’s often used as being afraid of someone. I do love and respect God, though.

As for now, I do believe there is climate change…Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter!

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@GaffaUK: Trying to start trouble again or do you really believe the tripe you are writing?

It is possible to believe in God and still be an objective scientist.

In fact, I would assert that it’s easier to be a Christian and an objective scientist than it is to be a follower of Al Gore theology and an objective scientist.

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Unfortunately, I wasn’t kidding Hard Radical.

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