Mark Wilson – Getty Images
“On the question of so-called torture, we don’t do torture. We never have. It’s not something that this administration subscribes to. Again, we proceeded very cautiously. We checked. We had the Justice Department issue the requisite opinions in order to know where the bright lines were that you could not cross.
The professionals involved in that program were very, very cautious, very careful — wouldn’t do anything without making certain it was authorized and that it was legal. And any suggestion to the contrary is just wrong. Did it produce the desired results? I think it did. “- Dick Cheney, ABC News exclusive interview on Dec. 15, 2008
I was hoping one of the FA authors would blog about the Obama Administration’s declassification of 4 memos from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, from 2002 to 2005.
I haven’t had time to read up on these releases; and since no one else has made a post as of yet, I figured I’d put out an open thread before it becomes yesterday’s the other day’s news.
Was the Administration right in releasing these? For what purpose does it serve the public?
Did the “harsh interrogation techniques”, from what we know, constitute “torture”? And did they achieve any positive results in the way of actionable intelligence?
August 1, 2002
Memorandum for John Rizzo
Acting General Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency
Interrogation of al Qaida Operative
Also of interest:
The President Ties His Own Hands on Terror
The point of interrogation is intelligence, not confession.
By MICHAEL HAYDEN and MICHAEL B. MUKASEY
“I was hoping one of the FA authors would blog about the Obama Administration’s declassification of 4 memos from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel”
I was actually working on one citing former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s op-ed:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993446103128041.html
Politico has some background:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21338.html
Obama now owns the war against makers of manmade disasters. And now that he’s given the terrorists the tools they need to resist our tame interrogation methods it’s likely we won’t be able to get the information that would prevent attacks.
Treasonous. More and more treason. Grounds for impeachment are impending.
And they tortured kids lest we forget. America…the Moral Example
@Rodney:
Kids? Abu Zubaydah? Khalid Sheikh Mohammad? Abd al Rahim al Nahiri? Trust any of them on a playground near you?
______________________________________________________________
Thanks Word, my computer won’t let me do pdf, but I did read the oped by Mukasey and Hayden.
It’s disturbing that this president seems to toss bones to the left everytime he gets in the weeds for something they don’t like. He does trade offs, once we see he is doing something that upsets his base, expect him to toss them a biggie like this, country be damned.
Back to the oped. They are warning that this totally stupid move by Obama is going to put the CIA back to pre 911, that they won’t have the confidence they need to do their jobs.
Couple that with gifting our blood thirsty enemies:
Now, I’m sure Obama thinks he knows more than Hayden and Mukasey, but I’m going to trust their judgement over his.
Hitting the nail on the head IMO:
“*Cheap grace” is the phrase I am looking for – the guy who was, for example, committed to public campaign finance as an important principle of fair elections dropped that principle as soon as it became helpful to him to do so. And he would drop this “no torture” rhetoric just as quickly if someone tthat mattered to him was affetectd by it. I am just troubled by his current eagerness to pretend that the safety of the good preople of the United States is not a priority.
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/everyone-gets-a-pass.html
Please read the link.
.
It would be really interesting to know how many attacks were prevented because of the information we received from these simple and harmless techniques. I guess sharing that data would be counter productive for BO!
Now that we have blown our cover, the torture was nothing to be worried about, the terrorists now can feel safe in plying their trade. Classic liberalism.
Another way you can demonstrate is to ask a liberal to put a sign in front of their house make the sign read “no guns in the house” — let us know in a few months how it worked out.
The fear of the unknown is the most powerful tool in the tool box.
You can download adobe acrobat 8.0 for free. Do it so that you too can read the memos released by the anti american traitors in this administration. When they are voted out of office, I hope the next administration releases all the love notes received and sent by Mr. Obama and Hillary Clinton and from all the commies and ruthless dictators they are now sucking up to.
@Jamw96: President Bush (the last adult to occupy the Oval Office) spoke about how advanced interrogation methods (waterboarding was used on JUST THREE TERRORISTS) helped stop plots:
http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2006/09/bush-terrorist-interrogations-have.html
At the end of the Bush presidency I compiled a list of plots that were stopped including some which might have proceeded if we had not waterboarded THESE THREE TERRORISTS:
http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2009/01/monument-to-bush-presidency.html
Isn’t it funny how the Dems went ballistic over the revealing of Valerie Plame’s identity but now seem only too eager to reveal sources and methods that protect us all?
Let me note the obvious: Nothing, absolutely nothing is going to deter Obama from his objectives on the war against “man-made disasters” until we have another man-made disaster in the Untied States. By the time that happens he will have set us back beyond where we began.
With the MSM and Congress in his pocket, we can protest until the sun rises on the west, but the sickening facts are that the majority of this country think he knows what he’s doing. That’s not exactly a recommendation for the common sense for the majority of this country….
This is typical. Personally I don’t think it’s about placating the left.
It’s that overwhelming leftist need to feel good about themselves and superior
to others.
Obama feels good about this because he gets to say how open and morally superior he is
to those evil Bushies. A selfless narcissist is an accurate desription of obama
and the left.
@Hard Right:
I think you are right. After posting this morning, I found this this afternoon, he knew it was coming. He better make the effort to convince the world that our agents did not torture or our CIA will be harassed or tried until the end of time, the bad guys win:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/18/politics/100days/main4953883.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4953883
“On the question of so-called torture, we don’t do torture. ”
The waterboarding in the picture tends to prove that. I’ve seen protesters and reporters line up to get waterboarded, but I’ve never seen anyone volunteer to be genuinely tortured to make a point!
>>“First you need the truth, and then you need justice.” >>
If this means they intend to go after Bush, I think there’ll be he** to pay. If that is what it takes to get us out of the UN, it might not be a bad thing, but it won’t happen if it’s up to Obama. Things will have to go from bad to worse and back again.
The interrogators wore rubber fetish masks with leather g strings & suspender belts -& thats ust the men. Tfemales sported swastika tattoos across their buttocks …
wait -wrong movie.
Torture of course should only be used for the “right” reasons, and only by those on the right. Torture was the only way to save Western European civilization from the epidemic of satanic witchcraft during the middle ages. Through the correct use of torture many many witches were made to confess and also to identify other witches including the very difficult to find so called “sleeper witches”
Torture is only good for obtaining confessions. You want confessions than go ahead and torture. Everyone who breaks the law should be prosecuted in court. Whether for leaking selectively leaking state secrets or for torture. The agents that tortured should be prosecuted, if at the end of the trial the Executive Branch wishes to grant them clemency so be it. BUT this is a nation of laws. Period.
Leave it to a stupid lib to compare our highly trained professionals that are protecting his sorry life and lives of countless others, to ignorant loons from ages ago. You are as profound and deep as a splat of spit.
So basically the al Qaeda terrorist now know nothing will happen to you, so go for it.
The similar thing can be tested for accuracy, put a sugn in front of your house proudly stating “no guns in the house’ and check back, if you are able, with us in afew months with an update.
The fear of what you don’t know is worht than the act itself.
Next one is all yours Barry.
I think, if you watch 24, that the moral is that so many people die needlessly, when a little “torture” could have avoided it. When someone holds one of yours and threatens their death, and you have someone that can tell you where they are! I’m sorry but if you don’t do every thing to prevent said death, then you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Proof, you nailed it. Bet they wouldn’t line up or volunteer for having electrodes
placed on their genitals and hooked to a car battery.
Then again, considering what sickos they are, they just might.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzucc_saddam-hussein-and-rumsfeld-shake-h_politics
Now that’s a warm friendly handshake if I ever seen one.
“Bet they wouldn’t line up or volunteer for having electrodes
placed on their genitals and hooked to a car battery.’
Or bamboo shoots under the fingernails or anything else the rational world considers torture!
@mooseburger: Mossy are you spamming with that totally irrelevant link?
Mike: Yes, wrong thread, meant this for the Chavez thread. Sorry
It’s sick that obama turns his back on people fighting to stay free (and alive), while he makes friends with people who makes their political opposition “disappear”. I have no doubt chavez’s political opposition is getting more than a little water poured on their face.
Now that’s it is out that one terrorist was waterboarded 183 times, there seem to be questions as to how effective this technique actually is. Personally, it seems like someone would spill way before that, if it were working. But I confess that, other than what I’ve read, I’m realistically ignorant to the subject, so I’m wondering what you guys have to say….
@Aye Chihuahua:
You’re right, Aye, I did fail to leave a source.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/20detain.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5185835/CIA-waterboarded-Khalid-Sheikh-Mohammed-183-times.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0420/p99s01-duts.html
I know Conservatives don’t hold the NY Times up as great journalism, I understand that. But where did they get these figures? If the information is tainted, how off would you say the figures are? Even if this occurred 20 times, the same argument can be made, ait seems to me. So, in your opinion, in what way is this information tainted, and what does this all mean?
From Cary’s NYTimes article:
BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7945783.stm
Some how we now have to figure out how the CIA waterboarded KSM 183 times in 20 days and make KSM think he was only waterboarded 5 times. Appears Marcy Wheeler thinks she has proven more than KSM even knows, what a feat.
@Missy:
Well, there does seem to be a contradiction there, thanks for pointing that out. But it doesn’t answer my question. If one is subjected to waterboarding techniques multiple times, and nothing is found out, should these techniques be continued?
Personally, I couldn’t care less about a terrorist – if he’s guilty, do what you want with him. I say cut him up without meds, remove any usable organs, and give them to those whose lives can be saved with them. Give the rest to Purina for zoo animal feed.
But my question is how about how effective this technique is.
I don’t think that torture would be such a huge political issue if it weren’t for Abu Ghirab, when the public’s eye was turned to this. Unfortunately, those who were tortured there were not terrorists, but civilians caught in a general sweep. This leaves people like me to wonder where the line is drawn between those who are guilty and whom torture will yield life saving results, and those who are innocent but perhaps suspected. How do we know without trials?
@Cary:
Per this morning’s discussion on FOX with Karl Rove. There are also memos detailing the results/success of these interrogations that this administration has chosen not to declassify and release. Cheney has now stepped forward and has asked that they do this so the public can know the results.
The abu Gharibe scandal went out of control, fueled by the media and I personally believe that the prisoners were abused, not tortured. Those miscreants that participated were punished and strict policies have been implemented.
Don’t know if you were here for the discussions, but in the past I had mentioned that my nephew served part of his time in Iraq as a guard in that prison, he was also one of Saddam’s guards. After Saddam’s death he was tasked to guard his body until it was removed from the chamber. He then guarded terrorists being interrogated preventing the interrogater from touching them, interrogaters are not allowed to lay one finger on them. His duty was to protect terrorists.
@Missy:
I have a kinder regard for Bush than a lot of my friends, for whom starting off with Rove on Fox is probably not the most persuasive opening! LOL – But I have an open mind, and if indeed there are such documents, I think we have a right to see them, and that the administration has a responsibility to allow us.
I disagree with you on the torture/abuse definitions, although we seem to be pretty much on the same page in that regard otherwise. My point is that is was that scandal which turned the public’s attention to the issue of torture.
No, I missed the discussions about your nephew’s service and assignments. I realize that this makes the issue that much closer to you and your family, so thank you for a calm, civil discussion while emotions are undoubtedly high. And thanks to your nephew for his service. That must be quite a difficult job, indeed.
I will stay alert for news on the other documents. Perhaps they can answer my previous questions.
It appears my comment went to limbo!