Mata: HuffPo actually ran a poll of their left wingers the return of the base to Cuba….

Well, “only” 47% HuffPo a very far left wanting to give it back kinda validates my position. haha…

Thanks for the other links, I find their (Republicans for Obama) positions interesting, yet naive. I think the small number of people discussing this (returning the base to Cuba) is more academic than if it got out as something discussed by the greater society. I tend to think (opinion) that many more Americans would be against giving the base back to Castro. Too many arguments against giving it back would sway public opinion, like your comments about Russia and Venezuela.

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EyeRoller: Sadly blast, the world has heard so much about “American interests” (from Diego Garcia, missiles in Eastern Europe, nonsense in the Middle East ad nausea) and not forgetting Cuba. It’s only my 2 cents worth, but perhaps it is more relevant to be more concerned about US citizens at home instead of having “interests” elsewhere and eg dealing with the remnants of Hurricane Katrina and other domestic and economic problems?

I think we can talk and chew gum at the same time eye. No doubt some of the abuses of the past, such as the use of Gitmo as a detention center has damaged our international creditability, but President Obama has a new role where he needs to balance a number of issues other than “how we look”. Russia and Venezuela are threats to the USA, maybe not from annihilation, but they pose a threat in this hemisphere. So I agree our government has failed on the issue of Katrina, but that does not mean the new Administration has to give away some leverage it has with Cuba.

EyeRoller: Never think for one moment in your wildest dreams that Cuba will be loaded with any perceived baggage of debt from abusive/predatory corporations who elected to plant themselves on that island decades ago, rape the place and use cheap labor to satisfy the whims of the US and other global markets.

Well, there are civil claims against Cuba for property and those claims will need to be satisfied. Many of the Cuban ex patriots (with their clout) will be a huge impediment to normalized relations if claims are not dealt with, so what I am talking about is a practical end game. I am not supportive of exploitative relations, but those claims will hang out there until resolved. If they lay unresolved it will be bad for any potential future a free Cuba might have.

EyeRoller: The current administration has a chance of showing change in the US view of the world and has much support globally.

No doubt, but does it have to be all or nothing? I mean can’t incremental improvements demonstrate that? Didn’t the election of Obama change many opinions about the USA? I don’t disagree with you that some change needs to take place, like closing the detention centers. Those centers are a black eye and no longer help the US more they are hurting us. Keep in mind however that unilateral actions won’t fix all of our problems and might leave us without areas to negotiate with.

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I want to meekly raise my hand to make a small point.

The back and forth discussion between Mata and Blast is an example of how great this blog could be if the various discussants confined themselves to debating issues, as opposed to lobbing personal insults. Both of the above writers treated each other with respect, and it is obvious that both of them learned something from the other, and that they were even able to find areas of common agreement. This made for both entertaining and informative reading for thread “lurkers,” such as me.

Does anyone really get anything out of pissing contests? Are they really all that rewarding? Is it really worth anyone’s time to read back and forth exchanges of personal insults? As opposed to well reasoned exchanges of honest differences of opinion?

- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA

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Sadly blast, the world has heard so much about “American interests” (from Diego Garcia, missiles in Eastern Europe, nonsense in the Middle East ad nausea) and not forgetting Cuba. It’s only my 2 cents worth, but perhaps it is more relevant to be more concerned about US citizens at home instead of having “interests” elsewhere and eg dealing with the remnants of Hurricane Katrina and other domestic and economic problems?

Cuba is only a Caribbean island – there are a fair number of them and any one of them can adopt an “anti-US” stance at any time. If they did, there are always reasons – they don’t wake up one morning and elect to find a foe. Are they going to invade the US? Certainly not. They have a better lifestyle where they are and can live in peace. Many of the islands do not welcome any US military activity around their shores and despise being dictated to (or “warned”) by the US govt. about their commercial activities and could not care less about “US interests”.

Why do you think Russia/Venezuela may be of concern now?? Do you think Russia has never noticed US activity messing in countries on their borders and talk about installing missiles in neighboring counties?? Every action has a reaction – mess with other folks and they will act accordingly for their own protection. If the US does not want to be concerned about Cuba or any other bordering nation having Russian missiles, perhaps the US should consider not having missiles on the borders of Russia? No?

Never think for one moment in your wildest dreams that Cuba will be loaded with any perceived baggage of debt from abusive/predatory corporations who elected to plant themselves on that island decades ago, rape the place and use cheap labor to satisfy the whims of the US and other global markets. The days of servitude, whether economic or otherwise, to a master ended some time ago, but you can bet your last dollar that predatory activity will continue. It’s the nature of the beast.

The current administration has a chance of showing change in the US view of the world and has much support globally. Not only would a change improve the status of the US as a country and it’s people, but would also make the world a safer place without the predatory activity. I’d hope that this “chance” is not wasted and the world could view the US as once it was.

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Don’t think you’ll get long enough for Cuba to “change competely”, blast. I did some fast scouring around myself. HuffPo actually ran a poll of their left wingers the return of the base to Cuba….

What should the United States do with Guantanamo?

Give the land back to Cuba. 47.78%

Turn it into a research center for tropical diseases. 34.07%
[Mata Musing: huh????]

Keep it as a detention facility for suspected terrorists. 6.45%

None of the above. (Leave your suggestion in the comments.) 11.69%

Back in November, just after the election, the “Republicans for Obama” site had an article advocating for the same… return it to Cuba now.

Those are as “fringe” as Obama general voters. Not one of ‘em thinks about the repercussions…. just the int’l perception bennies.

Now add articles such as from the Council on Hemispheric Affairs:
1: From Mar 15, 2007… a Constructive Plot to Return Guantanamo Bay to Cuba in the Near Future

2: A Dec 1, 2008 article from the socialist site, People’s World Weekly on how int’l attitudes towards Cuba are increasingly ripe for trade and relaxed regulations.

So perhaps your criticisms that my far fetched theory in this post that Obama may do this is “alarmist” – or at least premature – is actually… well… premature. Obviously my exploration of that path of action is not “out of left field”, but actually supported by the “left field”. And somewhat actively.

So how do you think Obama would hold up under increased peer pressure on this? Cave in like a stack of worn cards comes to mind for me….

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One final thing though, I will have to find out if we have a military cemetery there. If we do, we must bring all our sailors and Marines home, and any other American Personnel who was burred there. Leaving them on foreign soil really would drive me nuts (which is not a far distance to travel).

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I have been wrong, but in this case I feel the case against getting rid of the Naval Base is weak. What has tarnished the base has been the fighting over the detainees (right or wrongly). I think Cuba will change completely in the next 5-10 years. All the old revolutionaries are dying or dead and the new breed was infected with American ideals from their cousins and receiving remittances in the past. Plus I think they need a ton of ’57 Packard parts.

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… one of those danged optimists who believe in humans, eh blast? LOL

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MataHarley: You must be paying them! Haha.. I did google and did a quick look at a few polls. They were left wingish sights, including the Libertarian Party… which was 62 for returning and 30 against… not too bad given their principled positions. I tend to think once the debate is framed without the detention center attached to it, people would be more understanding. Just my gut feeling.

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EyeRoller: I’m sure the US does have a legitimate claim blast. That is not to say there is any reason not to change that and give up/terminate the lease, especially since the recent/current activity tends to bring disrepute on the occupiers.

We could unilaterally give it up Eye, but American interests would be better served if the Naval Base continued to operate (as it did before detainees), and we reach an amicable exchange for the base with a democratic Cuba. Mata was very right when she spoke of Russia and Venezuela being of concern, doing Naval exercises between Cuba and the North Coast of South America. It would be too dangerous to turn the facility with its deep water port over to the present regime.

When change comes in Cuba, and it will come. One of the largest stumbling blocks to normalization will be the huge debts Cuba has with American (and other foriegn) Corporations. Cuba nationalized industries and those companies and individual as well are looking for their money. The base could be the final chip in a trade to clear the decks of her debts and give the new Cuba a fresh start.

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