Ya know…it never ceases to amaze me. Maybe these people aren’t getting enough fluoride in their water (see also Dr Strangelove). I just don’t know. After months of having their civilian populations targeted by Hamas rocket attacks, Israel struck back at Hamas targets with precision air strikes aimed at minimizing civilian casualties (the opposite of Hamas’ strategy). In response to Israel’s strikes, morons took to the streets and to the seas demanding that Israel stop their attacks and let Hamas continue attacking civilians by extension. Clearly the onus for this war rests w Israel for responding so belligerently to Hamas’ attacks on civilians.
Some have argued that the response was “disproportionate,” and they do have a point because…it is. If Israel’s response were proportionate, it would target civilians rather than Hamas’ infrastructure, but I’m not an advocate of randomly launching rockets into populated Palestinian areas, and no one should be imo.
Others-like failed Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, decided to try and take their yacht to the shores of the war zone. What’re these people thinking? How’s that thought process go? “That war looks bad. Maybe if I go there myself I can peacefully raise enough alarm and bring good, sound, common sense, and there will be peace, love happiness, cotton candy clouds, rivers of chocolate, and groves of gumdrop trees’
For God’s sake…what ARE these people thinking?
Wordsmith,
“You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?” appeasing the word by letting it manage its own affairs would go a long way to keeping americans safe.
“Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East?” providing weapons and funding to israel and other unwanted regimes, a long history of bombing campaigns, working out oil contracts and other deals with tyrants, vetoing various resolutions at the UN, and much, much more.
“[[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]
Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.” review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.
“But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?” it isn’t a matter of perspective. it isn’t theoretical. american military force is in active use around the world, including the tens of billions of dollars in weapons hand outs to israel each year. american vetoes are keeping the UN silenced. you can verify this, it’s not a matter of dispute or speculation.
“The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.” but it isn’t just tyrants and thugs. look at the voting record on resolutions concerning israel. it’s also other G8 players, major countries, countries with infinitely more effective democratic systems and free media than what exists in the US. search for articles about israel in google, and look at articles from media outlets in other major countries. the differences are alarming. for instance, CNN refers to everyone with a government job in palestine as a “hamas operative,” this is similar to referring to every person who worked for the US government under bush as a “republican operative.” or for example, CNN scarcely mentions civilian casualties in palestine and most of their articles omit the fact that a third of those are children. no pictures or shown. media outlets in other countries are reporting the whole truth, specific numbers of casualties, showing pictures, and so on, as a free media is supposed to do, because it’s vitally important to democracy.
““Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?” every tyrant claims to be a liberator, claims that their presence is the only thing holding back the slaughter of innocents, and meanwhile, oppresses and slaughters innocents. america is founded on a rejection of the idea that a small empire from another continent can be entitled to dictate to a third party, under any circumstances. modern US world policing is fundamentally anti-american. in fact, in the last 50 years, the US has slaughtered millions of innocent people and consistently acted to prevent democracy.
“World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet.” you oppose the occupation of tibet? a powerful country proving that it controlled another country’s land in ancient times and using military force to seize that land? you oppose that practice?
“Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?” yes, israel would not be a problem if it existed in the continental US. the israeli conflict would finally end in that case, as israel’s current neighbors would neither wish to militarily attack israel, nor would have any hope of doing so.
“Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments?” the US does the opposite, it crushes secural movements and imposes shahs and royals. a lack of US policing would certainly mean more peace, more freedom, more democracy.
“BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.” that’s inaccurate. the US supports shahs, pinochets, royals, husseins, typically as an alternative to a democratic government. in fact, the gaza bombing campaign that happens to slaughter children (400 or so dead now), is an effort to thwart a hostile democratically elected government by simply deposing it, thereby thwarting democracy. US policy is clear: people can vote the way the US wants, or they can’t vote.
“Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?” israel’s religiously motivated and ancient land claims are meaningless to me, just as someone claiming to be a descendant of royalty where my ancestors were servants and demanding my servitude would be laughable. so yes, I disagree with israel’s presence, I support moving its people back out, and in any conflict, even one where israel’s neighbors cross various lines in the sand, I still have no trouble recognizing that israel’s presence is the core issue that needs to be resolved. if hamas has violated international law, set up a tribunal for the specific perpetrators, but that has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel’s presence, or whether or not israel’s attacks are also war crimes, which they are.
“Islamic fundamentalism is a global threat. Not through land invasion by armies, but through radical teachings of wahhabism in Saudi-funded mosques and failures on the part of European nations to integrate and assimilate Muslims to be good citizens and not listeners of clerics who preach anti-western messages and issues of foreign policy in their sermons.” islam is horrible, but it isn’t a direct military threat to the US in any way. the only threat to the US is a war of public opinion and guerrilla tactics, which any student of history knows are almost always exacerbated and amplified by a conventional warfare response.
“Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.” hitler was democratically elected and was defeated on his own soil by russia, and japan didn’t experience regime change in response to US terrorist genocide. iraq and afghanistan are currently subject to US administration and occupation, in the sense that their governments answer to US commanders who have extensive forces in their countries.
“Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow brutal regimes peaceful governments benign to their people.” you also sponsor dictators and use them to access oil and other resources
Scott,
“Jews were not safe in those areas until after Israel became a state. Prior to the creation of a Jewish state…anti-semitism was rampant in those areas and in particular Europe. Even today it still is in many areas.” america and canada had large jewish populations prior to 1948, and both countries accepted a lot of jewish refugees during world war 2. though, it’s moot now, in today’s very different world, where civil liberties are pretty much assured for everyone in the world’s wealthiest countries.
“Yes, Hamas IS the problem because they broke the peace/cease-fire.” the cease fire in what? empires typically follow the concept that when the empire’s forces roll through another society, the population can choose to simply stand down and allow the empire free reign in order to have peace, and that if they don’t, they are the initiators of violence. the logic works so long as you refuse to factor the occupation in your reasoning.
“Oh, and I’m sorry, but there’s no way Israelis are just gonna pack up and leave w out US aid. It’s their country (Gaza and W Bank aside). They do not survive on US aid any more than Egypt does, and I don’t see Egyptians leaving there if the US cuts aid.” on the contrary, israel does not have anything resembling the infrastructure required to wage modern warfare, and its capabilities are based on a constant supply of american weapons.
“Which is easier for the Palestinian people to influence: Hamas or Israel” individual palestinians aren’t responsible for the actions of either, and aren’t logical or valid targets in the conflict. after 9/11, americans should have no trouble understanding how horrific and dangerous it is to rationalize random civilian casualties by blaming them for failing to overthrow their government.
in short, the 400 or so palestinian children killed by israelis in the last month were not responsible for their own deaths by failing to prevent attacks on israel.
MetaHarley,
“That means that 56.8% of citizens that were eligible to vote, actually participated in the POTUS election. This pretty much blows your concocted theory that the largest unified group of americans by far are unable or unwilling to vote, and of those who can vote, the largest group, again by far, is a group who refuse to participate in the existing system.” I said unable or unwilling to vote, in reference to people who are either not eligible to vote or who refuse. and it is true that even among those who can vote, there are more abstainers than any one party has supporters. simply put, 132 million votes is less than 168 million non-votes, and of those votes, a minority are for the ruling party because a portion go to independents, so obviously the ruling party is authorized by well under a quarter of the people in the US. nothing that I said is in conflict with your statistics, and my assertions stand.
“This also means that 30% approx of eligible voters supported the “ruling party”, in Canadian’ese. And that is more consistent with history that the 15% figure that you apparently pulled out of the air in order to criticize.” I said 15% of people in the country, not eligible voters, however, it’s moot as 30% is still not a majority, so even among eligible voters, my assertion that the government is not representative of a majority stands.
“The Taliban was created by Pakistan’s Benazir Bhutto, along with Mulla Omar and the Maulana Fazlur Rahman as a protection force against Hekmatayr for Pakistanis cotton goods transported thru Afghanistan. I have no idea where you pick up your propaganda and talking points, but you may want to consider changing sources.” I say “essentially created” referring not to the origins of the movement, but to their rise to power, which was caused by the US.
“Yet you make it *your* call to suggest displacing Israelis from land where they have lived among Muslims for generations.” not at all, what I’ve proposed is withdrawing all forms of american support. that is, disabling their american-supplied nuclear weapons, ceasing to provide them with arms, and disallowing trade with the US. if some israelis would be willing and able to choose not to exit the middle east then that really wouldn’t be an american matter.
“Yes, you stand amongst stellar company in your opinions… most of them being terrorists and jihad movements around the world.” it’s almost the entire world but israel itself and a few of the G8 that oppose the movement to force a non-muslim political entity into the middle east. for instance, I have family living in china, and you wouldn’t believe some of the strongly anti-israeli viewpoints that are common there, often resembling genocidal antisemitism, coming from chinese people. I recently visited paris and there was a lot of opposition there, as well. third parties that are not muslim, jewish, american, or otherwise directly invested, are growing increasingly frustrated with israel, just as the occupation of tibet is not winning any popularity contests for china. in fact, it’s really unfortunate that the injection of israel into the middle east may be generating a growing worldwide trend of mistakenly blaming all jewish people. a trend that could result in some pretty scary consequences as america’s might steadily declines.
There was a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel in 2008. There was even a period of peace, but Hamas declared repeatedly that they were going to break the cease-fire, and when they did on 12/19…Israel struck back instead of fleeing.
Israel wasn’t occupying Gaza during the cease-fire. There was peace, and it would have lasted indefinitely but Hamas broke it.
No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.
Thank you for addressing the crux of my point…
…however, PARENTS are responsible for their children. If my kid is throwing rocks at soldiers…I damn well better teach my kid not to. If I have terrorists living in my basement, as a parent in particular, I’m damn well gonna tell em to leave. It’s my responsibility to keep my kids from harm, and having bombmakers, terrorists, Israeli-bomb-targets in my basement or my kids’ school…well, I’m not gonna let that happen. Where are you getting your casualty figures btw? I’m not knocking em, I’d just like to see how many Hamas-rocket-launching-terrorists have been killed in comparison.
Scott,
“There was a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel in 2008. There was even a period of peace, but Hamas declared repeatedly that they were going to break the cease-fire, and when they did on 12/19…Israel struck back instead of fleeing.” a cease of what fire? this is one of a sequence of events stretching over half a century, not a random incident that came out of nowhere.
“Israel wasn’t occupying Gaza during the cease-fire. There was peace, and it would have lasted indefinitely but Hamas broke it.” having a western state injected into the area is an unacceptable condition for many.
“No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.” egypt receives nothing comparable to what israel receives, no country does. http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
“…however, PARENTS are responsible for their children. If my kid is throwing rocks at soldiers…I damn well better teach my kid not to. If I have terrorists living in my basement, as a parent in particular, I’m damn well gonna tell em to leave.” the victims are selected at random and have no ability as individuals to protect themselves. opponents of hamas are no more likely to be killed than supporters of hamas. that’s the nature of guerrilla warfare. soldiers embed themselves in the civilian population, making it impossible to kill them without suffering massive civilian casualties. it is a war crime, but to blame the individual civilians for their own deaths is fallacious.
“Where are you getting your casualty figures btw?”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090108/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaicrcwounded_newsmlmmd – as of jan 8, “Palestinian medics say that more than 700 people have been killed in the Israeli offensive, including 220 children, with a further 3,100 people wounded.” many of the “wounded” are children with missing arms and legs.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/14/israel.gaza/index.html
- jan 14, “Palestinian medical sources said the death toll in the Gaza conflict had risen to 1,010 Palestinians.”
about half of palestine’s population is underaged, so when palestinian civilians are killed, a lot of them are children. also, in the US, a child is anyone under 18, but other countries tend to define a child as a prepubescent, so someone under the age of about 12 or 13. therefore, by the american definition, the number of dead children would be significantly higher.
israel is approaching the halfway point for a human disaster comparable to the WTC attacks, in this round of attacks. though, in this case, many of the victims are children, where very few of the WTC victims were children.
@Aye Chihuahua:
I “feel your pain” and hope and pray O’Bunko doesn’t “help” you too much (or, at all, if possible)!
____________________________________________________________________________
@!Justin L. (#53)
I’ve said this before to others who should also have already known it, but I’ll repeat it again.
1. You rely on “Palestinian medics say…”???? Are you a fool or a liar? What part of “They always lie” don’t you understand?
http://www.theisraelsituation.com/2008/04/palestinian-media-lies-about-civilian.html
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2007/08/palestinian_journalists_pressu.html
http://current.com/items/89710030/encyclopedia_of_famous_palestinian_lies.htm
2. The Placentinian Arabs are committing Perfidy, a particularly heinous war crime, yet no one charges them for it. The World instead blames Israel for war dead which are the fault of our implacable savage foe.
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/article_view.asp?articleID=99
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/sep03/beres1.htm
But gulible and or malicious people like yourself choose to blame Israel for the evil of our enemies, while NEVER holding the Arabs accountable for even one of the many thousands of violations they commit so brazenly, and which they know will only ever be blamed on Jews. From this we can see how rampant anti-Semitism yet remains in the World.
Yes, Justin L, there was a Holocaust,
http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx?ID=994&t=Auschwitz-Plans-Found-in-Berlin
from here…
http://www.isracast.com/category.aspx?ID=7&t=Holocaust-&-Antisemitism
…and the Paleostinkians were in it up to their necks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBFBvceJvIU&
(Oh, yeah, give them Bosnian Muslims a state, genius!)
http://www.ifapray.org/NaziIslamicFacism/NaziIslamicFascism.html
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3381
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OcFj5Z0jCQ
“No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.” http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
———–
First and foremost – Israel won it’s major wars before US aid… US aid only come in the later parts of the Yom Kippur War. The major wars were fought with a ragtag arnament, basically anyone who would sell Israel weapons… Thank G*d, (and curse also) for the French who till this day will sell weapons to anyone so long as they pay (look into the Rwandan Holocaust… France has a HUGE responsibility there!). The IAF made it’s name with the French Mirage,rifles were FN (belgium I think).
The Arabs were benefitting from Russian patronage way before Israel was aided by the USA. The Russians sent the Arabs state of the art planes, SAMS (this did alot of damage as it was a new weapon at the time), anti-tank rockets (also did havoc when they were new) – THE RUSSIANS EVEN SENT RUSSIAN PILOTS. YES, RUSSIAN AND ISRAELI PILOTS DID ENGAGE IN DOGFIGHTS OVER EGYPT! (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/operate5.htm)
As for Israel’s aid, it is EXTREMELY misunderstood. Nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia ‘buy’ weapons from the USA. Abrahms tanks are being built in Egypt right now. I say “buy” with quotations because these purchases are the types of loans that never get paid… They are the types of loans that make up a nations debt.
Israel, on the other hand gets a stipend from the USA, THE MAJORITY OF WHICH MUST BE SPENT IN THE USA. In a sense it is a means of ECONOMIC STIMULUS, the USA gives Israel money to spend in the USA economy. Again – Egypt gets weapons and never pays, Israel gets money with which to buy weapons.
“egypt receives nothing comparable to what israel receives, no country does.”
————-
To what exactly are you referring? The F16 is sold worldwide, so is the F15 as is the Apache… Those are Israel’s main “American” arnaments. The Israeli versions are unique in that they use American planes and Engines (or is Pratt Witney Canadian? not sure) with Israeli avionics & arnament. The Israeli avionics are superior to the American ones in many respects, esp. for the IAFs purposes.
LASTLY: let’s talk RETURN ON INVESTMENT. For America’s investment in Israel, they actually see a return. This is not true of investments in the vile Saudi or Egyptian regimes.
The original American F4 phantom came without GUNS! The designers thought the age of the Air to Air Missle meant the end of guns. As anyone who follows this stuff knows, the first generation of AtoA missles were horribly unreliable (Israeli pilots were known to drop them into the Ocean so that they could at least gain maneavourability). The result was that F4 pilots were being taken out too easily in Vietnam. When Israel was finally okayed to but the Phantom they ABSOLUTELY INSISTED ON GUNS. When the americans saw how well Israel was using the Phantoms they began a retrofit in combat (this helped, unfortunately, a gun ‘retrofit’ does not a well integrated weapons system make)
The original Patriot Missle, which CNN showed during the first gulf war supposedly knocking down Scuds was ABSOLUTELY USELESS (since the Patriot was an AA weapon…)! The Americans tried to get it working for years – it took the Arrow (best anti-ballistic missle system in the world) and Oren Yarok Radar system & then Israel engineers working on the Patriot III to finally get it right.
Israel is a world leader in the development of UAVs, this technology too is shared with the USA.
Israeli missles & bombs are among the best in the world, these as well as Israeli avionics have been shared with the USA.
Israel is also the most experienced army in the world in dealing with embedded Jihadists in civilian populations – tactics and intelligence sharing are CONSTANT.
In terms of biotech, Internet, cyber-warfare Israel is a world leader – this too benefits the USA.
Of course – these are all tangibles. I haven’t even begun to speak of Israel’s place in the MidEast. Israel is but a front in the War on Terror. It’s enemies and the US enemies are identical, they are after a world Caliphate, as in Pan Islamism.
—-
As for the Israeli weapons system, I often hear that Israel is an ‘American army’… Never understood how any self respecting military primer would make such a statement. Other than the air force it’s arnaments are very different from what the Americans carry (and as for air forces: all air forces are made up of either predominantly American or USSR planes… That’s true worldwide… )
The Main Battle Rifle through the years was: The FN,
the UZI (more of a submachine gun) – Israeli invention
the Galil (an Israeli innovation that provides AK47 ruggedness, with closer to M16 range & accuracy… M16 & colts don’t do well in dust or dirt – they’ve never been ideal for the IDF)
After the Yom Kippur war they recieved tons of long and short M16s, so you do see those still.
Today Israel is switching to 100% indigenous Tavor Bullpup rifle (an amazing weapon).
The machine guns: FN MAG is the heavy, Israeli Negev is the light…
Guns: ever heard of the Desert Eagle?
Israel’s tanks have always been at least somewhat ‘Israeli’. In the early years they recieved Centurions and even Shermans but these were immediately “Israelized”, the end result is a different creature than what it started as. The chains and cage armour employed by the USA today was retrofitted to old tanks by Israel decades ago.
Israels main battle tank is the Merkava, there have been 4 major revisions of this beast. It is the perfect tank for Israel – a very difficult mark to attain as Israel has EXTREMELY VARIED TERRAIN: The south is arid desert, the north is rocky at some points and muddy, mucky, ‘tank-killer’ territory in the Golan & on the Lebanon border. I have heard from colleagues that an Abrams tanks tracks broke while trying to traverse the Golan (this doesn’t mean the Abrams is inferior btw:, it just means the Merkava is better suited to Israel).
The shells used by the Israeli tankers are the most advanced on the planet (check out the LAHIT).
Israel has developed several fighter planes as well. The Nesher & Kfir’s designed and built in Israel are still being used by some South American Armies. The LAVI was never completed by Israel but it was WAY AHEAD OF ITS TIME. Many believe it was scrapped because it would have threatened the F16s exports. We know the LAVI was WAY WAY WAY ahead of its time because one of China’s fighter planes, the J10, is a clone of the decades old LAVI!
Israel’s navy is full of Israeli boats and arnaments (+ European subs).
Check out: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/ – amazing site (odd, seems some of the links are broken, maybe t’was hacked again, has happened to a few sites since Gaza conflict began). Or look at the companies IAI or Elbit
@wingless:
Thanks. Nice presentation. Very informative.
“When a ten-year-old is running at your vehicle with an AK-47, do you shoot the kid? Yes, you shoot the kid.”
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2009/01/three-posts-on-judging-and-justifying-israel.html
@26 Scott,
“I’m not sure whether israel is trying to kill innocent people or not, which is terrifying. I’m also not sure whether the 9/11 attacks in new york were intended to kill innocent people, or simply to demolish a national icon”
Wow – and some people on here think I’m naive!
Hmm let me see – they could of flew into the Statue of Liberty – but that’s quite small and might hit some people. Howabout Mount Rushmore – fairly big and it’s a national icon.
Scott – I don’t agree (ask Yonason) with the set up of modern Israel but it’s here now. If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear. Were those in the middle east including those (not all) Palestinians cheering about 9/11 just because two large towers from the 70s were demolished?
Yes they were after icons – but they wanted to kill as many as possible. If Hamas threw rockets at the country that I was a Prime Minister day in day out – then I too would squash them.
Gaffa, I think you’re responding to Justin’s comments…not mine.
Justin, I appreciate this discussion. Thank you for participating.
Thank you as well for your links. Unfortunately, I’ve seen so much blatant propaganda from Palestinian sources-particularly on this issue-that I can’t trust their claims. If you’ve got an independent, UN, Red Crescent, or something like that, then I might be more trusting, but Hamas in particular seeks to create civilian casualties by using human shields (as we’ve seen in several videos and in their own speeches now), and they do this to play their strongest card: world sympathy. Independent source, or just unreliable, often-heavily-biased Palestinian claims about Palestinians?
btw guys, I like that link showing that Israel does make a lot of its own weapons. Given that it’s 6-7yrs old, a newer one might make for an interesting and more relevant comparison. The point remains, however, that Israel is not (as Justin believed) completely dependent on US weapons. They weren’t when they were created, and they’re less and less as time goes by. I think it’s also worth noting that if you combine the foreign aid (military and economic from DoD and DoS) to the multitude of Arab nations surrounding Israel (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Oman, UAE, Iraq, Kuwait) and combine the amount of oil revenue these nations get from the west…it seems like there’s a difference between the Arabs and Israel to the tune of hundreds of billions a year in favor of the Arab nations.
True or false: Hamas declared they would break the cease fire on 12/18/08 and again on 12/19/08? It’s that simple. There was a cease-fire in place, and working-brokered by Egypt, supported by the US.
“area”? This is the crux of the excuse to fire rockets at Israeli civilians? Where does “area” end? Is it only the Israel/Palestine “area”? Is it all “areas” that have been Muslim? Where does this “area” end, and who defines it-the few Hamas rocket launching people, or the millions of Israelis? See, I thought the people launching rockets were just a small number of Palestinians.
Again, you’re dodging the question of whether or not the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza can more effectively oppose rocket-launching-Hamas guys or more effectively shake their fists at Israeli planes. Responsible parents MUST keep their kids safe-everything else is secondary, and part of keeping them safe is keeping them away from guys that are bomb-magnets. They can do nothing against the Israelis, so either move away from the bomb-magnet guys or get the bomb-magnet guys to move out of your basement. Allowing them to stay in their basements, their hospitals, and their schools is to harbor them, to aid them, and to neglect their responsibilities as parents which is: #1 keep your kids safe. Gaza’s a small place, but if there’s not a lot of terrorists, then there’s not a lot of problem. In any event, Palestinians in Gaza will be far more effective at getting Hamas out of their basements than in getting Israel to stop bombing their basements to get Hamas.
GaffaUK #29, per the words of Bin Laden the 911 strike was not aimed at civilians but the US economic and military centers. From an interview with Al Jazeera correspondent, Taysir Alouni in late October 2001:
The myth that AQ struck “American icons” of freedom is one begat by a very uneducated media. It was an act of war, aimed to knock America to it’s knees by attacking it’s financial centers (WTC), the command center (Pentagon) and it’s leadership (WH or Capitol… most likely the former).
Civilians are a moot point since OBL does not differentiate between military and civilians as enemies.
You will find the pertinent interview hotlinks at Debunk 911 Myths.
@Justin L:
What do you mean “appeasing the word”? That appeasement itself would go a long way to keeping America safe?
I’d hardly call Israel an “unwanted regime”. They have shared values and a democratic system of government. Why on earth would we ever abandon Israel in hopes of being liked by those who do not share our values and beliefs?
What you’re saying is you’re not opposed to other nations working out oil contracts and dealing with tyrants, vetoing various UN resolutions, “and so much more”; but you’re opposed to the U.S.
I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]
Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.”
review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.
Interesting, as I actually read quite a bit of anti-Israel press in American media; no question about it in international media.
Again,
I’m not quite seeing your train of thinking; or maybe I am, but am baffled by the moral inversion; or refusal to look at things through a moral lens, but through the lens of moral relativism and a belief that a “voice consensus” equates with “the moral choice”.
If it were left up to “moral” majority/voice consensus, do you think the rest of the world should have a say in American elections? Should we let the rest of the world- the majority opinion- dictate U.S. policies?
I think you’re failing to perceive my point, which is the grievances against Israel and the U.S. is based upon flawed perceptions, slant perspective, and lopsided propaganda.
Yes, American military force is active around the world…..and? So? Do you have an inkling of what our military does on behalf of the rest of the world? No, you don’t. What you only see are the negative “accomplishments”, as seen throught the filter lens of anti-American perceptions, perspective, and propaganda.
How is America’s financial support of Israel unreasonable and unfair, given our financial assist to other foreign nations, including Arab states?
What countries have a more “effective democratic system”? Is France’s media much freer than the U.S.? What nations are you referring to, specifically?
I stand by the statement that the UN is dysfunctional. Yes, liberal elitist old Europe and major countries are also part of the problem. 3 out of 4 of the members of the UN are despots, dictators, rogues and terrorists themselves; Old Europe is comprised of appeasers; note, too, that France and Germany weren’t opposed to U.S. invasion of Iraq on “moral grounds”, but upon selfish self-interest in oil contracts and billions owed to them by Saddam (along with Russia and China).
All nations are not created equal. A nation like Sudan can sit on the UN Human Rights Commission. Do you really draw moral equivalence between Sudan and the U.S.? I wouldn’t be surprised if you do see the U.S. on the same moral plane.
If America gave up its superpower status to the “will of the majority” nations, life on planet earth would be further removed from achieving any kind of utopia you may have envisioned for the world.
Justin, I have a very difficult time believing that CNN international is anything close to being a pro-Israel cheerleader.
What are your examples of credible, free media?
There you go again, with the moral relativism and refusal to acknowledge that there is a clear distinction between right and wrong and good and evil.
Do you think the Soviet Union was an evil empire?
Where are you getting this morally inverted perspective from? Noam Chomsky?
See earlier link.
Ok, and then? Israel took the land and made it prosper. When they relinquished the Gaza Strip, they left behind greenhouses and other agricultural installations. The Palestinians were shown how to use them, and basically inherited a major source of export income. And like so many things, they made a mess of it. In the case of these greenhouses, they were destroyed because they had Jewish cooties.
Without Israel as a scapegoat, I find it hard to believe that the Middle East would suddenly change and be gripped by peace and prosperity.
No, it would mean less freedom, less democracy, more suffering in the world. The U.S. has been thrust into the role of global police. I’d love it if our allies contributed more to military defense and we could withdraw troops from South Korea, Japan, Germany, and all the places on the globe where we are relied upon to keep our allies safe.
Oh yes, we supported Pinochet, a brutal leader who created the most dynamic economy in Latin America and who, under pressure from American government, allowed a referendum on his own power rule in 1988, then gave it up altogether 2 years later. Whereas liberal elites and lefties have no problem with Mao and Castro.
Every one of the “dictators” you think the U.S. installed/supported played a vital role in preventing the other alternative, usually a more ruthless ruler/communist regime. In the case of the deeply pro-American Shah, what took his place when we failed to act (under Carter) to support our ally? A secular democratic movement? No. A more repressive, more brutal regime of Islamic militancy, the legacy of which we face today. That’s what happens when America takes an isolationist foreign policy stance and doesn’t intervene.
Uh…no. Hamas is in the wrong. It is to be held accountable for civilian deaths. We accepted Hamas’s “election” results; we don’t accept their breaking of the cease-fire.
They’re meaningless to me as well. But they have claims other than religious. Go back and re-read my link above.
And you’ve side-stepped my point: Islamic radical fundamentalist teachings and culture breeds the hatred for Jews. It isn’t the Israelis who are intolerant, desiring to live in peace. The burden of peace is on the Arabs whose hatred is beyond reason.
Russia couldn’t have defeated Hitler without U.S. aid and supplies; defeating Hitler’s Germany was a combined effort.
Now since you seem to consider “democratic majority rule” to be the apex of “morality”, I suppose you don’t see a problem with Hitler’s rise to power, anymore than you do Hamas? Because who are you to judge? Who are you to say what’s right and what’s wrong? What’s good and what’s evil? Are there no “bad decisions”, so long as majority decides?
Ah, I see…so dropping the A-Bombs amounted to “U.S. terrorist genocide”? In conventional warfare between states, the people who support their armies are part of the war effort.
These are sovereign nations whose governments are still in their infant stage and welcome U.S., Coalition, UN, and NATO assist. Do you notice decisions made by those governments that conflict with what our government desires? Hardly puppet regimes.
Redundant point already addressed. Since you “no-sold” the link to my post earlier, I’ll reprint it here in its entirety (you’re welcome!):
@Wordsmith:
Oh, come on Wordsmith. What do the people of Iraq and, anyone we’ve liberated from fascism, know that Pelosi and Reid don’t? ….um, uh, ….nevermind. (Nice Job, btw!) Now we just have to liberate ourselves.
@GaffaUK:
“If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear”
Precisely, and well said.
Here’s a Jewish approach, some of which you might even find yourself in agreement with….
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/668896/jewish/Whos-Protecting-America.htm
@Justin L:
“I’d like to see a day when the world is under a unified government “
All we need are a few fairies who can wave their magic wands and make the evil people nice so that the UN can govern them all in peace?
Well, maybe not the UN…
The problem with these “peace at all costs” thugs is that what they blindly advocate and belligerently demand always ends up being all cost and no peace.
israel……………..
you are screwed
@jainphx:
yeah i agree with jainphx