Ya know…it never ceases to amaze me. Maybe these people aren’t getting enough fluoride in their water (see also Dr Strangelove). I just don’t know. After months of having their civilian populations targeted by Hamas rocket attacks, Israel struck back at Hamas targets with precision air strikes aimed at minimizing civilian casualties (the opposite of Hamas’ strategy). In response to Israel’s strikes, morons took to the streets and to the seas demanding that Israel stop their attacks and let Hamas continue attacking civilians by extension. Clearly the onus for this war rests w Israel for responding so belligerently to Hamas’ attacks on civilians.
Some have argued that the response was “disproportionate,” and they do have a point because…it is. If Israel’s response were proportionate, it would target civilians rather than Hamas’ infrastructure, but I’m not an advocate of randomly launching rockets into populated Palestinian areas, and no one should be imo.
Others-like failed Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, decided to try and take their yacht to the shores of the war zone. What’re these people thinking? How’s that thought process go? “That war looks bad. Maybe if I go there myself I can peacefully raise enough alarm and bring good, sound, common sense, and there will be peace, love happiness, cotton candy clouds, rivers of chocolate, and groves of gumdrop trees’
For God’s sake…what ARE these people thinking?
It matters not what HAMAS does or doesn’t do, the fact that Israel exists, and Jews are actually breathing, is sin enough. I wonder where common sense has gone.
I vote that HAMAS be eliminated to the last man if need be, just let Israel live in peace. That can’t be too much to ask, can it?
This “thing” has only been going on for 3 or 4 days now, but uber-idiot Cynthia McKinney has already managed to get a boat there, only to be rammed by the Israeli Navy.
Does she have a real “day job” ?
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Some time ago, I saw a newsreel of a Palistinian mob that invaded an Israeli police station and murdered the police/soldiers inside. Then they threw the dead soldiers out of the second story window to the ground below. The mob then stomped their lifeless bodies to a pulp. Then a member of the mob leaned out the window and with his hands held out for all to see, he shouted out, “I have Jew blood on my hands”. The crowd below cheered wildly. These Palastinian people are barbaric thugs and religious Zelots that deserve exactly what they gave. F### them! Bomb them into dust to the last man. Then take over Gaza, pick up the trash and rebuild the towns. Plant olive and orange groves. Rebuild the infrastructure and make it a place to be proud of. Maybe then the other Arab jackasses around the middle east will see terrorists for what they are, useless reactionary fodder that promote death and destruction and interfere with peace and harmony.
I take it the guy holding the sign is a recent Harvard grad.
“Death to all Juice?”
Is that the literacy level of the average Muzzie idiot?
This idea of proportionate response is very disturbing. In some ways it validates the motive of the attacker and by constraining the defensive response assures that the attacker may continue the attacks as long as he is prepared to endure a similar response.
Sound strategic thinking would dictate that you defeat the attacker and make it either impossible or too costly for him to continue the attacks.
What if we had used a proportional response after 9/11? Would we have just bombed a couple of sites in Afghanistan until we had killed 3,000 people? No. Because that wouldn’t have removed the threat.
The idiots who are pushing proportionate response are really enabling those who would use aggression and violence against more powerful states. Such thinking threatens, not enhances, opportunities for peace.
Hindsight, I guess the pic could be from OJ’s sentencing and just miscaptioned to fuel the great zionist propaganda conspiracy. No?
The people calling for a cease fire don’t really care about Israel. They want it to fall. The think, along with the muslims, that Israel should not exist. They think if Israel was annihilated there would be peace in the ME. They only think that because they don’t really use their brains. If Israel did not exist, the muslim world would have another excuse. They want the entire west eliminated. It is really appalling how clueless these liberals are. One wonders what universe they live in and how their minds work. But then how can they support a woman who killed two people with a pick ax and the cop killer like Mumia.
RC Brooks
The Palestinians are the other arab countries’ wedge. They don’t want to alleviate their problems. They want the Palestinians to continue to live in squalor because they are the rallying cry for “kill the Jews”. As long as they can point out the different life styles Israel and the Palestinians live, they can justify “death to the Jews”. Muslims are supposed to be the most generous people on earth yet they will not help the Palestinians. The Koran supposedly teaches to give generously to the poor yet they arm and whip up these poor suckers and expend their lives while they themselves sit in comfort. They regard the Palestinians as trash. And they in reality are trash. The irony of it all is that they depend on Israel for their infrasture, their food, etc. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Israel does more for them than all of the rest of the arab countries combined yet they seek to destroy them. What would they do without Israel? They would starve.
OH! I have an idea! Send Al Franken over to Gaza to sooth their angry minds and promote peace and understanding.
What is with this guys hatred for juice. Isn’t it good for you. I personally love juice, drink it all the time. Please don’t hate on oranges.
And my sign…
“AN END TO ALL FILTHY MUCKS AND MUDS”
LOL they don’t raise them to read… they raise them to walk and carry 10 pounds of C4 to there chest.
It really does simply come down to the fact that if they stopped bombing Israel, Israel would stop too, but if Israel stopped they would just wipe the Israelis from the map. That in fact makes them evil and hate mongers. So, if every last one were to disappear i wouldn’t shed a tear or waste a prayer.
Americans should look at the vicousness of the protests taking place in this country and finally realize there is no way to negotiate with these idiots. Their way or no way. I say no way. Expell them all.
Proportionate Response = Gang of five armed thugs invades my home and threatens to kill my kids. I have to wait until they actually kill one of my kids, and then I can kill one of them. I have to wait till they kill another one of my kids before I pull the trigger again. In the end, my whole family is dead, and one of the thugs probably gets away.
Appropriate response = Gang of five armed thugs invades my home and threatens to kill my kids. I unload every available weapon in my house in the specific direction of the armed thugs and make sure they never threaten my kids or anyone else ever again. In the end, my family is safe and all of the thugs are dead. The only thing I wait for is the Coroner.
I’m with Israel on this one.
Wisdom, you are welcome as my neighbor any day of the week…. LOL
Wisdom shows wisdom-THANK YOU!
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I’m with Wisdom to the 100th power
the israelis don’t need to be in that location, their forced presence is the cause of this conflict, and americans should have no trouble recognizing that killing thousands of innocent people in order to demolish important buildings is horrific. also, in this case, many of the victims are children.
lies and propaganda are decreasingly effective in today’s world, and the time is rapidly approaching when israel will be hated for its crimes by 90% of the world’s population. the truth of israel’s vicious nature is finally seeing the light of day around the world, and the “only nazis question us!” lie is confusing fewer and fewer people. the world is waking up and realizing it has every right to unabashedly oppose tyranny and slaughter, regardless of the who the perpetrators may be.
Justin, two questions:
1) does Israel have a right to defend itself against rocket attacks aimed at civilians
2) what’s a proportional response?
Scott,
1) no, israel’s presence is the source of the problem, and I fully support offering foreign sanctuary and protected exodus to all israelis who will leave, and then disabling the remainder’s nuclear capabilities, cutting their supply of weapons, funding, and political protection, and isolating them with embargoes and sanctions.
2) no response is warranted. if you randomly attack a man on the street, that’s assault, and it’s probably logical to blame you for the violence, but if the man invades your home and you attack him in the process, his presence in your home is the cause, even if a very narrow view of the situation could misrepresent you as the seemingly unprovoked aggressor.
Justin L,
Oh boy! We are not out of the woods with you… lol
Interesting, Justin… and when you go back thru history, just whom do you think that land “belongs” to?
Don’t bother to answer. In fact, before you continue to pursue your opines based on racial bias, you might want to catch up on the reality of Gaza and the West Bank… and don’t stop until you go further back than the Ottoman Empire.
We on FA have already been thru the historic presence of the different kinds of humans occupying lands that become different countries/states over time. It’s part and parcel of every country’s history… including your own Canada.
What I find more interesting is that you… without the intellectual benefit of historic overview (which favors no one as denizens of Gaza over the other)… decide that it’s the Israelis who don’t belong there.
Ain’t that amazing? That’s *exactly* what Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and all the global Islamic jihad movements say.
And of course you are too stupid to recognize that the Israelis *aren’t in Gaza*, and have been gone – as per agreement – since 2005. So what does that do to your “invade my house” argument?
Again, don’t bother to answer. Frankly I have a few choice descriptions of your character, as you have presented yourself here. But then, you aren’t worth the time I spent typing this already.
What I can say is… Craig? Watch your back. This terrorist sympathizer is in your back yard. And closer than you think.
“What I can say is… Craig? Watch your back. This terrorist sympathizer is in your back yard. And closer than you think.” (Mata)
LOL. That doesn’t suprises me one bit, they are all pro-terrorists here.
Justin, thanks for replying.
I’m not sure why it’s Israel’s presence that’s the problem when there was peace in Gaza for months before Hams (12/18/08 and 12/19/08) declared it would end the cease fire, then Hamas began firing on Israeli civilians. To me, that says…there was peace until Hamas broke it. Sept, Oct, Nov there were almost no Hams rocket attacks, then Hamas declared it was ending the peace/cease-fire. Why?
I’m afraid I didn’t understand your description of proportional response. Israel’s using expensive guided munitions to try and avoid civilian casualties, and while many civilians are killed, it’s far less than if they just launched unguided rockets and dropped unguided bombs (see also pics of cities in WWII destroyed by unguided bombs). If civilians were Israel’s target, I imagine they’d have killed a lot lot more than just a few hundred in a month’s time; they’d have killed tens of thousands.
MataHarley,
if your best defense is personal attacks then you have no defense. in response to some of what you said:
I do agree that many of this world’s societies exist in places that have histories with other people, and that is certainly true of canada. I’m part aboriginal, in fact, so the notion of historical entitlement is not foreign to me. however, the world has largely rejected the idea of trying to rearrange everyone in order to restore all land to its first occupants, and this is for good reason. I’m not ignorant of history, I simply reject the notion that faith or political and economic influence warrant an exception in the case of israel, where no other entitlement would be recognized by world standards.
also, when I said that the israeli presence is unnecessary and is the source of conflict, I was referring to their presence in the region. I’m really not concerned with the concept of ownership, either way, but I recognize that the decision to move a second culture into that area has caused constant conflict, and that reversing the decision by moving them to another location would be a simple and easy way to end the violence.
to present a simple analogy, if you have a large cage with 10 dogs that get along relatively well, but then you add another dog, and a constant series of fights breaks out, it’s logical to simply move the new dog back out of the cage in order to prevent the fighting. who owns what isn’t really my concern, and I would probably advocate moving the israelis even if they had been there all along and their neighbors were a relatively new presence, simply because israel is a small, isolated group which would be far more practical to move.
also, I have no racial bias. I’ve said my share of scathing things about china and tibet, france and vietnam, britain and ireland, de beers and south africa. this sad nazi comparison bit is really tiresome, and it isn’t fooling a lot of people these days.
Scott,
I’m not sure whether israel is trying to kill innocent people or not, which is terrifying. I’m also not sure whether the 9/11 attacks in new york were intended to kill innocent people, or simply to demolish a national icon with no regard for the loss of life. I do know that civilian casualties are a predictable result of israel’s attacks, and that the israelis know it, just as the perpetrators of 9/11 knew it. also, the deaths of hundreds of children is a known consequence. I can’t condone any campaign that will knowingly kill hundreds of children. nothing of mine is worth that, even my life.
in response to your point about peace, I agree that a factor in the ongoing violence is that israel’s neighbors refuse to accept israel’s presence. I certainly wouldn’t react the same way, but I take a pragmatic approach to the fact that israel sat down next to a pack of rabid dogs, and I say that getting up and sitting somewhere else is the obvious means of restoring safety and order.
@Justin L:
She only mentioned “stupid” once. Sheesh….
A@Justin L:
When you speak of lies and propaganda, how do you know you’re not the one victim to it? And if this is the case, hardly “decreasingly effective”, no?
Here’s an example of the kind of “lies and propaganda” I’ve been fed. Is this historical perspective wrong?:
Why do Jews have any less of a claim to the land than Arabs?
Justin L: Israel is a fait accompli. There is no question that it will continue to exist. From the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1918 the certainty of a Jewish state would take form was 100%. Changing history and expelling Jews from Israel would be like most of the USA being abandoned and turned over to the native Americans. If you look at the land mass around Israel and how much is controlled by Muslim countries… there is plenty of land for a Palestinian homeland. While we are on the subject… why not support the Kurds for a homeland first. They are the largest ethnic group in the world without a homeland? Oh, that would mean partitioning two Muslim countries.
Hey watch it everyone, Wordsmith is pulling out his gigantic response posts again. I’m taking off from work all next week to read them. Let’s see I’ll need loads of coffee, cigarettes…ummm snacks…yes snacks…
Ron
Justin, I appreciate your commenting-again.
I myself have no doubt that Israel’s NOT trying to kill civilians, and I base that on 2 factors. First, if they wanted to kill civilians, they’d just carpet bomb w massive 2000lb bombs, and they’re not-not at all. Second, there’s just not that many casualties in Gaza, and I have a real hard time believing (particularly given all the footage of strikes on rocket launchers etc) that none of those people killed in Gaza are Hamas. Yes, no doubt civilians have been killed, and yes that’s gonna happen if the enemy hides behind them, hides in the bottom of occupied apt buildings, fires from schoolyards, and uses charity compounds as firing positions, but-again-the casualty count is way too low (as is the damage to buildings far too small).
Now, you’ve repeatedly mentioned that the Israelis should leave. I wonder why? Why should the Israelis leave instead of killing off Hamas and returning to the peace that Hamas broke, admits they broke, declared they were gonna break, and did break? Is it because civilians might get killed in any Israeli counterattack? If so, then no nation has the right to defend itself because civilians always die in war. Also, I think if there’s one single group of people in the history of the planet who we can look at and say, “No matter where they go, they’re gonna be persecuted” It’s gotta be the Jews. Wherever they’ve been, they’ve been persecuted-even here in the U.S. (though thankfully not on a scale similar to that of Europe).
See, for me it’s pretty simple. There was peace, Hamas broke the peace, now Hamas gets attacked. Civilians can either turn on Hamas, or die w Hamas. If there’s so few Hamas in Gaza (I’ve seen some Palestinians claim that all of Gaza is being punished for the actions of a few criminals, and the number given was 1:1000 people), then stopping Hamas should be easy…at least easier than stopping or even confronting the Israelis:
(Israeli military=big, powerful, sophisticated, big numbers
Hams in Gaza=big, but nothing compared to Israel)
Which should the civilians in Gaza confront-Hamas that’s smaller and brought down the whirlwind OR
Israel which cannot be defeated, and is clearly reacting to deliberate civilian attacks on its country?
Justin L,
Were you in this “peaceful” manifestation in Montreal on January 10, 2009? Boy, this was ugly.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x80vdr_la-haine_news
Justin:
Hummm… care to reconcile why you reject the idea of “trying to rearrange everyone in order to restore all land” in all cases *but* Israel?
Check… not biased… except to the Israelis.
I’ll keep your acquiesence to the terrorist to remove all “zionists” and infidels from what they consider “Arab lands” in mind when they attempt to do the same in US European allies, and then here. Are you aware of what land boundaries they want for their initial caliphate? That being before they systematically eliminate all apostate Muslim leadership (changing them to Shariah law), and then go for western countries?
Check…. acquiescence to terrorists is the way to peace.
No racial bias… except, of course, it’s not “your concern” INRE those you feel you should relocate in order to placate a small percentage of jihad cockroaches. You instead want to empower those that keep their population in 3rd world conditions, their women in the dark ages, their daughters out of schools, a Shariah justice system that collects limbs and heads as part of their sentencing, and allow them to contine to embed hate in their children’s hearts.
Yes, Justin… I can see that you really feel their plight is none of your “concern”.
BTW… the only person mentioning “nazi” is you. I said your opinion is shared by Hamas, Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad, al Qaeda and other global Islamic jihad movements… that Israel should not be in the “region”. Nice company you have there. You drew your line in the sand, and that’s very revealing about you, yourself. That you try to soften it with a fighting dog analogy does not improve your intolerance of Israel one iota. That your answer to everything is to just give in to thug tyranny…on the behalf of others that you feel is none of your “concern” to boot… shows that you find little in life worth fighting for.
Last I looked, Hamas, Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad, al Qaeda and other global Islamic jihad movements were not part of the 3rd Reich. So my suggestion is, if you are tired of hearing Nazi comparisons, you stop making them yourself.
Ouch!
That’s gonna leave a mark.
Aye, where the heck have you been???? And are you back officially? Or just doing a drive by?
Yes, I’m back officially.
Work is nutsy in the Nov-Dec time frame. Gotta work extra hard to earn that bailout money that Congress is steadily doling out.
May have to back off a little again in March-April (our other really busy season) but otherwise here I am.
Well Aye, there’s your problem! To get bailout cash, you are supposed to *not* work so hard, take extraordinary risks, be inefficient and unprofitable.
In other words… let it go to pot, and get in line with your tin cup.
Nah, I’d rather be excluded from the payouts.
I’ll just have to work harder to offset having Obie’s hand in my pocket.
Plus:
My wife wants a new kitchen.
My 17 year old is singin’ the “I want a car” song.
My 15 year old is just about to get her license.
My 11 year old needs braces.
Oy!
Some schooling for Justin:
Wordsmith,
I’m quite aware of historical land claims by the israelis, and I would guess that there is some truth to them, but I consider the topic moot. the vast surrounding area is currently occupied by muslims, and the predictable effect of establishing israel is violence. I’d like to see a day when the world is under a unified government and everyone is able to move wherever they please in peace, but the practical fact is that at this point, the political and cultural climate in the area of israel is prohibitive to settlement.
blast,
this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel. in fact, the UN has passed a series of measures that would be real moves toward dismantling israel, and they have only been blocked by a US veto. US power, wealth, and influence are on a rapid decline, so we’ll see what happens in coming decades. scenarios that seem unthinkable today, like the US being threatened with serious sanctions, embargoes, or boycotts for supplying arms to israel, could become a reality soon, and could convince a desperate american public to demand that their government stop funding israel. the US economy is not an island.
MataHarley,
I said that the world has rejected the idea of trying to restore all land to the descendants of its original occupants, and that this policy is for good reason. I don’t support uprooting established societies, or occupying another society by force. in fact, I don’t believe in special entitlement to anything based on lineage, and I support equal access to the world’s land and resources for all people, regardless of their race and heritage. what I said about israel is that israelis don’t warrant an exception.
in response to your claim that israel’s neighbors will eventually invade europe, anything is possible, but injecting a non-muslim state into the middle east by force isn’t helping anything, and it is in fact causing a lot of immediate bloodshed that could otherwise be avoided.
also, no I do not have any racial bias, and I do not support islam. in fact, I consider civil rights conditions in many muslim nations to be a crisis, but I don’t believe that bombings and occupations help. in fact, I think that forcing israel into their midst, bombing them, and placing and maintaining dictatorships, is specifically inhibiting firm but nonviolent efforts that could otherwise be used to push muslim nations toward respecting civil liberties. the US specifically holds back democracy in muslim countries because dictators are necessary in order to ensure that american companies will be given lucrative contracts. for instance, the shah of iran and saddam hussein were both put in power by the US, and many royal dictators are supported by the US.
@Justin L:
You might have already answered this (too lazy to look, and I came into the middle of this), but do you think Israel has a right to exist? And whether yes or no, that you still think Israel’s existence begets the violence by its very existence, then are you opting for the avenue of appeasement? That Israel should be bullied out of existence and leave the land because many Arabs- especially Muslims of all degrees of Islamism- can’t “get over it”?
So the burden of world peace rests squarely on the shoulders of Israel, huh? Well, the United Federation of Planets and the ability to set phasers on stun won’t bloody likely happen until the 23rd century by Roddenberry reasoning. So in the meantime, until the rest of the world shapes up, I prefer we don’t hand over U.S. sovereignty to a corrupt body like the U.N.
@Justin L:
Does that make them right?
The UN is a far different organization today than it was in 1948.
What is the percentage of UN Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human rights violations? I believe it’s zero.
The number against Israel? Something like at least 26.
Number of UNSCRs on the Middle East between 1948-91? 175. 97 against Israel, 4 against an Arab state.
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the UN Security Council? 16. And number of times for Israel? Zero.
Israel consistently votes with the U.S. in the United Nations; Arab nations consistently vote against us. They do not have our best interests at heart.
The UN is part of the problem in the world, Justin.
@Justin L:
From the dose of pro-Israel propaganda I’ve been chomping on, Justin, education and literacy rate is as high if not higher for Arabs living in Israel than for Arabs living anywhere else in the world. More “propaganda”:
@Justin L:
So what is it you propose? Appeasement road to peace? Didn’t Israel try that approach with relinquishing the Gaza Strip? Haven’t they been trying this sort of approach for decades? And that only begat more violence, not less. Yes, yes, I know: No peace until Israel is off the map.
I disagree. Muslims within Israel enjoy these “civil liberties”; outside Israel, in Arab states, they do not. Israel is not the problem when it comes to the backwardness and human rights issues inherent in many Arab states.
No. Dictators are the “lesser of evils” than allowing secular Muslim governments to fall, to be replaced by Islamic states that will bring more repression; not less.
Saddam was not put in power by the U.S. I don’t think we put the shah in power, either if I remember correctly; but we did support his rise to power (CIA tricked by the Brits, if I remember), and rightly so. Would we be better off today had Carter supported the Shah than allow him to fall? Is Iran better off under the Khomeinites and Islamic militancy?
The problem isn’t because America does business with non-democratic regimes in the Arab world. Those like bin Laden and Zawahiri don’t oppose Muslim governments and the Saudis because they want a more open, freer society. They hate the U.S. support of those secular Muslim states because they demand a more Islamic society that will have fewer freedoms and more oppression on human rights.
Dennis Prager puts it beautifully:
Wordsmith,
I think that people use this “right to exist” term to try to equate disputing land ownership with wanting to kill people, so I never use or directly acknowledge that phrase. that being said, I absolutely do not feel that forcing a non-muslim state into the region is necessary or useful at this point, and religious devotion, historical land ownership claims, political and economic influence by a particular group, and other reasons why another group would like to be inserted by force are not withstanding.
“I prefer we don’t hand over U.S. sovereignty to a corrupt body like the U.N.” I don’t consider any part of the middle east to be US territory or otherwise any more logically subject to US rule or regulation than, for example, to chinese rule.
“[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.
“The UN is a far different organization today than it was in 1948.” it isn’t just UN delegates, it’s the vast majority of the planet finding religion to be a poor excuse for an occupation, finding israel’s tactics to be horrific war crimes that would never be acceptable in any scenario, finding american unilateralism over a held-hostage world disgusting, and finding israel’s democracy-subverting efforts around the world (lobbying and often much worse) infuriating.
“Israel consistently votes with the U.S. in the United Nations; Arab nations consistently vote against us. They do not have our best interests at heart.
The UN is part of the problem in the world, Justin.” arab nations are a minority at the UN, they can’t pass measures unilaterally. opposition to israel is a clear message from a vast majority of the world, from all corners, all races, all cultures, all religions (except judaism). if you believe in democracy then you oppose calling yourself righteous and dictating to a group that vastly outnumbers you. imposing israel on this planet is inherently unamerican. it’s tyranny.
“From the dose of pro-Israel propaganda I’ve been chomping on, Justin, education and literacy rate is as high if not higher for Arabs living in Israel than for Arabs living anywhere else in the world.” that addresses nothing that I said, and has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel
“Contrary to propaganda and to what many believe, the Arabs in Israel are full-fledged citizens, enjoy every right, have the same status in law as Jewish Israelis, and can freely move all over the country without fear of being harassed, attacked, or killed.” that is just not accurate, but again, this is an irrelevent diversion and I don’t want to get into it
“So what is it you propose? Appeasement road to peace?” I propose offering foreign santuary and a protected exit to every israeli who will leave, and then disabling the remainder’s nuclear capabilities, cutting their supply of weapons and funding, embargoing them, boycotting them, and sanctioning them. I expect there are countless countries that would provide food and housing for israel’s people, and an astonishingly safe and efficient exit process, which I highly doubt any of israel’s enemies would seek to disrupt.
“I disagree. Muslims within Israel enjoy these “civil liberties”; outside Israel, in Arab states, they do not. Israel is not the problem when it comes to the backwardness and human rights issues inherent in many Arab states.” israel isn’t the root cause, no, but unnecessary conflict and occupation is certainly holding back social progress, particularly in the matter of america placing and keeping “royal” families and other gangs and thugs in power.
“Dictators are the “lesser of evils” than allowing secular Muslim governments to fall, to be replaced by Islamic states that will bring more repression; not less.” this isn’t your call or your business, and you can’t expect to make these calls for other people at the point of a gun and be safe in your own back yard.
“The problem isn’t because America does business with non-democratic regimes in the Arab world. Those like bin Laden and Zawahiri don’t oppose Muslim governments and the Saudis because they want a more open, freer society. They hate the U.S. support of those secular Muslim states because they demand a more Islamic society that will have fewer freedoms and more oppression on human rights.” not all muslims agree on how policed they would like the public to be, if at all. the one unifying voice is that american interference in muslim countries or their immediate vicinities is the worst possible scenario, and will be met with violent opposition.
“We all know the answer. In every Arab country, a corrupt regime supported by America would be supplanted by a Taliban-type Islamic/fascist regime.” this assertion is unsubstantiated and inconsistent with the facts. by the way, the US essentially created the taliban.
“America’s and Israel’s haters are ethnic and religious haters on a magnitude not seen since the Nazis.” the lie that opposition to israel is inherently racist isn’t fooling anyone.
“If America abandoned Israel, our Arab and Muslim haters would rejoice, but they would surely not stop hating us. Not one of them.” america wasn’t chosen out of a hat, and neither were the israelis.
“America alone (and the little America in the Middle East, Israel) prevents the expansion of Islamic rule.” any of the G8 and more could demolish every muslim country on earth with the slightest twitch of their industrial might. this notion of muslims rolling across the globe, invading and defeating europe, china, russia, and other actual powers, is just an absolutely hilarious mutation of anti-communist paranoia that was ridiculous in the first place.
“Because expansionist totalitarian movements, whether Soviet communism or radical Islam, always hate free societies, and America is the strongest free society.” the only active, credible threat to the security and freedom of sovereign nations, on the planet, at this moment, is america.
“Our great problem is that so many in our country do not understand that those who loathe liberty loathe America.” many in america can see that overthrowing foreign governments, bombing innocent people, dictating policy on the other side of the globe, and worse, are obvious causes of backlash. in fact, it would be absolutely bizarre if america could do what it does, and everyone just laughed it off. it would be weird.
History shows that just won’t work with a Jewish population. They cannot rely on others for their protection, and must either defend themselves or suffer pograms and genocide.
Sorry man, but Hams announced it was breaking the peace; the cease-fire. Israel is only responding. If they wanted to kill civilians, they’d level Gaza city, and after a month of fighting they clearly have not.
Given that Israelis probably aren’t gonna have another exodus, and have no reason to believe that it’s good option given their history, let’s at least agree that your final solution is low on their list of good ideas.
Perhaps…just maybe, it would be better for the Palestinians to turn on weak little Hamas and restore the peace that Hamas declared it was breaking? I mean, in a microcosm isn’t it easier for an apartment building of Palestinians in Gaza to gang up and tell the Hamas leaders to get the hell out of the basement of their building, OR is it easier for those same Palestinians to shake their fists at Israeli bombers? I’m thinkin’ it’s easier to tell a handful of Hamas leaders to leave your building, to stop launching rockets from your kids’ schoolyard, etc.
@Justin L:
You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?
Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East? What you cited me on was a response to your wish “to see a day when the world is under a unified government”
Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.
But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?
The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.
Number of UN member states that are full-fledged democracies or “fully free” according to Freedom House: 89
Number of UN member states: 192
Percentage of UN member states which are full-fledged democracies: 46%
The so-called “vast majority” opposed to Israel have been fed hogwash propaganda regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. It’s the same with anti-Americanism. Not all countries are created equal, yet you and the UN want to give the same respect, equal treatment, and chair at the dinner table as democratic nations, to some of the worst violators of human rights abuses and corruption and not “pass judgment”. The UN’s commitment to the kind of utopia you probably want won’t happen because its commitment to human rights, democracy, and the rule of law is a rarity, not the rule.
“Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?
World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet. The United Nations and world opinion is mostly mired in apathy and moral bankruptcy.
It was a response to this: I support equal access to the world’s land and resources for all people, regardless of their race and heritage.
Arabs have been accepted into Israel and enjoy access to land and opportunity, regardless of their race or faith. And that happens in Israel. It doesn’t happen in Arab states.
Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?
Here’s another “distraction” for you:
But apparently, “I digress”…….
Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments? Reality is, sometimes you have a choice between supporting “bad” and “worse”, not sitting on the sidelines. You think a more Taliban-like government (for that’s the other alternative) would be “social progress”? The Prager piece said it well enough.
BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.
Unless you listen to the Ward Churchills, Howard Zinns, Noam Chomskys, and Juan Coles.
That’s mostly because they’ve been fed the bs of the Ward Churchills, Howard Zinns, Noam Chomskys, Juan Coles, and Islamic fundamentalists who desire to subject the whole of society under Sharia- which would be more repressive, not less.
We left a power-vacuum in Afghanistan, but we didn’t “essentially” create the Taliban. Nor did we fund bin Laden.
What do you mean “inconsistent with the facts”? The Shah of Iran was replaced by what? An Islamic/fascist regime. The secular Muslim governments in the Middle East are threatened by what? Radical Islamic groups who wish to live under theocratic rule.
Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?
Islamic fundamentalism is a global threat. Not through land invasion by armies, but through radical teachings of wahhabism in Saudi-funded mosques and failures on the part of European nations to integrate and assimilate Muslims to be good citizens and not listeners of clerics who preach anti-western messages and issues of foreign policy in their sermons.
Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.
Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow
brutal regimespeaceful governments benign to their people.Here’s a beautiful thread for you to absorb.
Scott,
the US, canada, and many other countries have large, safe, and very visible jewish populations, so the argument that jewish people can only survive in israel is absurd.
hamas is not the root problem in the israeli conflict, any more than american revolutionary efforts, which by modern american standards would be termed “terrorism,” were the reason why america’s early situation was violently unacceptable.
I think that if the US disabled israel’s nuclear weapons and announced a plan to cut all weapons and funding, and to impose an embargo and sanctions, many of israel’s people would voluntary leave. also, the offer to provide secure evacuation could be maintained even as conditions deteriorated in israel, so more and more people would likely accept it.
“in a microcosm isn’t it easier for an apartment building of Palestinians in Gaza to gang up and tell the Hamas leaders to get the hell out of the basement of their building” you’re blaming children for their own deaths because they didn’t overthrow their government?
typically, less than 15% or so of all people in the US actually vote for the ruling party. the system is a miserable failure as a means of representing anything resembling a majority. the largest unified group of americans by far are unable or unwilling to vote, and of those who can vote, the largest group, again by far, is a group who refuse to participate in the existing system. be that as it may, many who would support acts like 9/11 argue that all americans are responsible for the actions of their government, because they have either supported it or failed to overthrow it.
Jews were not safe in those areas until after Israel became a state. Prior to the creation of a Jewish state…anti-semitism was rampant in those areas and in particular Europe. Even today it still is in many areas.
-Yes, Hamas IS the problem because they broke the peace/cease-fire. There was peace for 3 months, and then Hamas broke it w acts of terror…now, you might think that launching rockets into civilian areas w the intent of killing civilians is a revolutionary idea, and that it’s akin to the American revolution, but it’s not. The American revolution did have some acts of terror, but it was won on battlefields-not in acts of terror or guerrilla warfare. Also, I’d be impressed if you could show me a few thousand incidents of American Revolutionaries deliberately attacking civilians as Hamas has done (and I’d be happy to provide a list of Hamas rocket attacks if you like).
Now…if you doubt that the onus for the Gaza fighting we have today rests w Israel not Hamas, then could you please explain how declaring that they’re going to break the cease-fire doesn’t put the onus on them?
Oh, and I’m sorry, but there’s no way Israelis are just gonna pack up and leave w out US aid. It’s their country (Gaza and W Bank aside). They do not survive on US aid any more than Egypt does, and I don’t see Egyptians leaving there if the US cuts aid.
I would appreciate a reply to the question I posed earlier:
Which is easier for the Palestinian people to influence: Hamas or Israel
Let’s correct the math you use for labels of the US system as a “miserable failure”.
There are approx 300 million US citizens
Approx 231.2 are eligible to vote
Approx 150 mil are registered to vote
Approx 132.6 actually voted in the 2008 POTUS elections
That means that 56.8% of citizens that were eligible to vote, actually participated in the POTUS election. This pretty much blows your concocted theory that the largest unified group of americans by far are unable or unwilling to vote, and of those who can vote, the largest group, again by far, is a group who refuse to participate in the existing system.
This is neither the highest percentage (63.1% in 1960), nor the lowest (49.1 in 1996) for a Presidential (not midterms) election. Iraq’s voter turn out, even with death threats, was something in th 80% I believe. That’s impressive… expecially for an “overthrown government” and those being “dictated to”, as you like to portray it.
This also means that 30% approx of eligible voters supported the “ruling party”, in Canadian’ese. And that is more consistent with history that the 15% figure that you apparently pulled out of the air in order to criticize.
For voter turn out results, here’s a quick, easy charge back to 1960. For election results, try Daive Leips’s Atlas of US Presidential elections
The Taliban was created by Pakistan’s Benazir Bhutto, along with Mulla Omar and the Maulana Fazlur Rahman as a protection force against Hekmatayr for Pakistanis cotton goods transported thru Afghanistan. I have no idea where you pick up your propaganda and talking points, but you may want to consider changing sources.
Yet you make it *your* call to suggest displacing Israelis from land where they have lived among Muslims for generations. Chutzpah. And most certainly the pot calling the kettle black. Considering you may be suffering from lack of accurate info in your neck of the woods, you might want to know they didn’t just magically transport a population of Jews from various parts of the world instantly into Israel in the 60s. But you’re a separatist… one who feels moving all the Jews away from the Muslims will cure the world’s ills.
Yes, you stand amongst stellar company in your opinions… most of them being terrorists and jihad movements around the world.
Wordsmith,
“You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?” appeasing the word by letting it manage its own affairs would go a long way to keeping americans safe.
“Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East?” providing weapons and funding to israel and other unwanted regimes, a long history of bombing campaigns, working out oil contracts and other deals with tyrants, vetoing various resolutions at the UN, and much, much more.
“[[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]
Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.” review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.
“But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?” it isn’t a matter of perspective. it isn’t theoretical. american military force is in active use around the world, including the tens of billions of dollars in weapons hand outs to israel each year. american vetoes are keeping the UN silenced. you can verify this, it’s not a matter of dispute or speculation.
“The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.” but it isn’t just tyrants and thugs. look at the voting record on resolutions concerning israel. it’s also other G8 players, major countries, countries with infinitely more effective democratic systems and free media than what exists in the US. search for articles about israel in google, and look at articles from media outlets in other major countries. the differences are alarming. for instance, CNN refers to everyone with a government job in palestine as a “hamas operative,” this is similar to referring to every person who worked for the US government under bush as a “republican operative.” or for example, CNN scarcely mentions civilian casualties in palestine and most of their articles omit the fact that a third of those are children. no pictures or shown. media outlets in other countries are reporting the whole truth, specific numbers of casualties, showing pictures, and so on, as a free media is supposed to do, because it’s vitally important to democracy.
““Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?” every tyrant claims to be a liberator, claims that their presence is the only thing holding back the slaughter of innocents, and meanwhile, oppresses and slaughters innocents. america is founded on a rejection of the idea that a small empire from another continent can be entitled to dictate to a third party, under any circumstances. modern US world policing is fundamentally anti-american. in fact, in the last 50 years, the US has slaughtered millions of innocent people and consistently acted to prevent democracy.
“World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet.” you oppose the occupation of tibet? a powerful country proving that it controlled another country’s land in ancient times and using military force to seize that land? you oppose that practice?
“Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?” yes, israel would not be a problem if it existed in the continental US. the israeli conflict would finally end in that case, as israel’s current neighbors would neither wish to militarily attack israel, nor would have any hope of doing so.
“Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments?” the US does the opposite, it crushes secural movements and imposes shahs and royals. a lack of US policing would certainly mean more peace, more freedom, more democracy.
“BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.” that’s inaccurate. the US supports shahs, pinochets, royals, husseins, typically as an alternative to a democratic government. in fact, the gaza bombing campaign that happens to slaughter children (400 or so dead now), is an effort to thwart a hostile democratically elected government by simply deposing it, thereby thwarting democracy. US policy is clear: people can vote the way the US wants, or they can’t vote.
“Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?” israel’s religiously motivated and ancient land claims are meaningless to me, just as someone claiming to be a descendant of royalty where my ancestors were servants and demanding my servitude would be laughable. so yes, I disagree with israel’s presence, I support moving its people back out, and in any conflict, even one where israel’s neighbors cross various lines in the sand, I still have no trouble recognizing that israel’s presence is the core issue that needs to be resolved. if hamas has violated international law, set up a tribunal for the specific perpetrators, but that has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel’s presence, or whether or not israel’s attacks are also war crimes, which they are.
“Islamic fundamentalism is a global threat. Not through land invasion by armies, but through radical teachings of wahhabism in Saudi-funded mosques and failures on the part of European nations to integrate and assimilate Muslims to be good citizens and not listeners of clerics who preach anti-western messages and issues of foreign policy in their sermons.” islam is horrible, but it isn’t a direct military threat to the US in any way. the only threat to the US is a war of public opinion and guerrilla tactics, which any student of history knows are almost always exacerbated and amplified by a conventional warfare response.
“Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.” hitler was democratically elected and was defeated on his own soil by russia, and japan didn’t experience regime change in response to US terrorist genocide. iraq and afghanistan are currently subject to US administration and occupation, in the sense that their governments answer to US commanders who have extensive forces in their countries.
“Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow brutal regimes peaceful governments benign to their people.” you also sponsor dictators and use them to access oil and other resources
Scott,
“Jews were not safe in those areas until after Israel became a state. Prior to the creation of a Jewish state…anti-semitism was rampant in those areas and in particular Europe. Even today it still is in many areas.” america and canada had large jewish populations prior to 1948, and both countries accepted a lot of jewish refugees during world war 2. though, it’s moot now, in today’s very different world, where civil liberties are pretty much assured for everyone in the world’s wealthiest countries.
“Yes, Hamas IS the problem because they broke the peace/cease-fire.” the cease fire in what? empires typically follow the concept that when the empire’s forces roll through another society, the population can choose to simply stand down and allow the empire free reign in order to have peace, and that if they don’t, they are the initiators of violence. the logic works so long as you refuse to factor the occupation in your reasoning.
“Oh, and I’m sorry, but there’s no way Israelis are just gonna pack up and leave w out US aid. It’s their country (Gaza and W Bank aside). They do not survive on US aid any more than Egypt does, and I don’t see Egyptians leaving there if the US cuts aid.” on the contrary, israel does not have anything resembling the infrastructure required to wage modern warfare, and its capabilities are based on a constant supply of american weapons.
“Which is easier for the Palestinian people to influence: Hamas or Israel” individual palestinians aren’t responsible for the actions of either, and aren’t logical or valid targets in the conflict. after 9/11, americans should have no trouble understanding how horrific and dangerous it is to rationalize random civilian casualties by blaming them for failing to overthrow their government.
in short, the 400 or so palestinian children killed by israelis in the last month were not responsible for their own deaths by failing to prevent attacks on israel.
MetaHarley,
“That means that 56.8% of citizens that were eligible to vote, actually participated in the POTUS election. This pretty much blows your concocted theory that the largest unified group of americans by far are unable or unwilling to vote, and of those who can vote, the largest group, again by far, is a group who refuse to participate in the existing system.” I said unable or unwilling to vote, in reference to people who are either not eligible to vote or who refuse. and it is true that even among those who can vote, there are more abstainers than any one party has supporters. simply put, 132 million votes is less than 168 million non-votes, and of those votes, a minority are for the ruling party because a portion go to independents, so obviously the ruling party is authorized by well under a quarter of the people in the US. nothing that I said is in conflict with your statistics, and my assertions stand.
“This also means that 30% approx of eligible voters supported the “ruling party”, in Canadian’ese. And that is more consistent with history that the 15% figure that you apparently pulled out of the air in order to criticize.” I said 15% of people in the country, not eligible voters, however, it’s moot as 30% is still not a majority, so even among eligible voters, my assertion that the government is not representative of a majority stands.
“The Taliban was created by Pakistan’s Benazir Bhutto, along with Mulla Omar and the Maulana Fazlur Rahman as a protection force against Hekmatayr for Pakistanis cotton goods transported thru Afghanistan. I have no idea where you pick up your propaganda and talking points, but you may want to consider changing sources.” I say “essentially created” referring not to the origins of the movement, but to their rise to power, which was caused by the US.
“Yet you make it *your* call to suggest displacing Israelis from land where they have lived among Muslims for generations.” not at all, what I’ve proposed is withdrawing all forms of american support. that is, disabling their american-supplied nuclear weapons, ceasing to provide them with arms, and disallowing trade with the US. if some israelis would be willing and able to choose not to exit the middle east then that really wouldn’t be an american matter.
“Yes, you stand amongst stellar company in your opinions… most of them being terrorists and jihad movements around the world.” it’s almost the entire world but israel itself and a few of the G8 that oppose the movement to force a non-muslim political entity into the middle east. for instance, I have family living in china, and you wouldn’t believe some of the strongly anti-israeli viewpoints that are common there, often resembling genocidal antisemitism, coming from chinese people. I recently visited paris and there was a lot of opposition there, as well. third parties that are not muslim, jewish, american, or otherwise directly invested, are growing increasingly frustrated with israel, just as the occupation of tibet is not winning any popularity contests for china. in fact, it’s really unfortunate that the injection of israel into the middle east may be generating a growing worldwide trend of mistakenly blaming all jewish people. a trend that could result in some pretty scary consequences as america’s might steadily declines.
There was a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel in 2008. There was even a period of peace, but Hamas declared repeatedly that they were going to break the cease-fire, and when they did on 12/19…Israel struck back instead of fleeing.
Israel wasn’t occupying Gaza during the cease-fire. There was peace, and it would have lasted indefinitely but Hamas broke it.
No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.
Thank you for addressing the crux of my point…
…however, PARENTS are responsible for their children. If my kid is throwing rocks at soldiers…I damn well better teach my kid not to. If I have terrorists living in my basement, as a parent in particular, I’m damn well gonna tell em to leave. It’s my responsibility to keep my kids from harm, and having bombmakers, terrorists, Israeli-bomb-targets in my basement or my kids’ school…well, I’m not gonna let that happen. Where are you getting your casualty figures btw? I’m not knocking em, I’d just like to see how many Hamas-rocket-launching-terrorists have been killed in comparison.
Scott,
“There was a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel in 2008. There was even a period of peace, but Hamas declared repeatedly that they were going to break the cease-fire, and when they did on 12/19…Israel struck back instead of fleeing.” a cease of what fire? this is one of a sequence of events stretching over half a century, not a random incident that came out of nowhere.
“Israel wasn’t occupying Gaza during the cease-fire. There was peace, and it would have lasted indefinitely but Hamas broke it.” having a western state injected into the area is an unacceptable condition for many.
“No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.” egypt receives nothing comparable to what israel receives, no country does. http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
“…however, PARENTS are responsible for their children. If my kid is throwing rocks at soldiers…I damn well better teach my kid not to. If I have terrorists living in my basement, as a parent in particular, I’m damn well gonna tell em to leave.” the victims are selected at random and have no ability as individuals to protect themselves. opponents of hamas are no more likely to be killed than supporters of hamas. that’s the nature of guerrilla warfare. soldiers embed themselves in the civilian population, making it impossible to kill them without suffering massive civilian casualties. it is a war crime, but to blame the individual civilians for their own deaths is fallacious.
“Where are you getting your casualty figures btw?”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090108/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaicrcwounded_newsmlmmd – as of jan 8, “Palestinian medics say that more than 700 people have been killed in the Israeli offensive, including 220 children, with a further 3,100 people wounded.” many of the “wounded” are children with missing arms and legs.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/14/israel.gaza/index.html
- jan 14, “Palestinian medical sources said the death toll in the Gaza conflict had risen to 1,010 Palestinians.”
about half of palestine’s population is underaged, so when palestinian civilians are killed, a lot of them are children. also, in the US, a child is anyone under 18, but other countries tend to define a child as a prepubescent, so someone under the age of about 12 or 13. therefore, by the american definition, the number of dead children would be significantly higher.
israel is approaching the halfway point for a human disaster comparable to the WTC attacks, in this round of attacks. though, in this case, many of the victims are children, where very few of the WTC victims were children.
@Aye Chihuahua:
I “feel your pain” and hope and pray O’Bunko doesn’t “help” you too much (or, at all, if possible)!
____________________________________________________________________________
@!Justin L. (#53)
I’ve said this before to others who should also have already known it, but I’ll repeat it again.
1. You rely on “Palestinian medics say…”???? Are you a fool or a liar? What part of “They always lie” don’t you understand?
http://www.theisraelsituation.com/2008/04/palestinian-media-lies-about-civilian.html
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2007/08/palestinian_journalists_pressu.html
http://current.com/items/89710030/encyclopedia_of_famous_palestinian_lies.htm
2. The Placentinian Arabs are committing Perfidy, a particularly heinous war crime, yet no one charges them for it. The World instead blames Israel for war dead which are the fault of our implacable savage foe.
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/article_view.asp?articleID=99
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/sep03/beres1.htm
But gulible and or malicious people like yourself choose to blame Israel for the evil of our enemies, while NEVER holding the Arabs accountable for even one of the many thousands of violations they commit so brazenly, and which they know will only ever be blamed on Jews. From this we can see how rampant anti-Semitism yet remains in the World.
Yes, Justin L, there was a Holocaust,
http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx?ID=994&t=Auschwitz-Plans-Found-in-Berlin
from here…
http://www.isracast.com/category.aspx?ID=7&t=Holocaust-&-Antisemitism
…and the Paleostinkians were in it up to their necks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBFBvceJvIU&
(Oh, yeah, give them Bosnian Muslims a state, genius!)
http://www.ifapray.org/NaziIslamicFacism/NaziIslamicFascism.html
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3381
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OcFj5Z0jCQ
“No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.” http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
———–
First and foremost – Israel won it’s major wars before US aid… US aid only come in the later parts of the Yom Kippur War. The major wars were fought with a ragtag arnament, basically anyone who would sell Israel weapons… Thank G*d, (and curse also) for the French who till this day will sell weapons to anyone so long as they pay (look into the Rwandan Holocaust… France has a HUGE responsibility there!). The IAF made it’s name with the French Mirage,rifles were FN (belgium I think).
The Arabs were benefitting from Russian patronage way before Israel was aided by the USA. The Russians sent the Arabs state of the art planes, SAMS (this did alot of damage as it was a new weapon at the time), anti-tank rockets (also did havoc when they were new) – THE RUSSIANS EVEN SENT RUSSIAN PILOTS. YES, RUSSIAN AND ISRAELI PILOTS DID ENGAGE IN DOGFIGHTS OVER EGYPT! (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/operate5.htm)
As for Israel’s aid, it is EXTREMELY misunderstood. Nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia ‘buy’ weapons from the USA. Abrahms tanks are being built in Egypt right now. I say “buy” with quotations because these purchases are the types of loans that never get paid… They are the types of loans that make up a nations debt.
Israel, on the other hand gets a stipend from the USA, THE MAJORITY OF WHICH MUST BE SPENT IN THE USA. In a sense it is a means of ECONOMIC STIMULUS, the USA gives Israel money to spend in the USA economy. Again – Egypt gets weapons and never pays, Israel gets money with which to buy weapons.
“egypt receives nothing comparable to what israel receives, no country does.”
————-
To what exactly are you referring? The F16 is sold worldwide, so is the F15 as is the Apache… Those are Israel’s main “American” arnaments. The Israeli versions are unique in that they use American planes and Engines (or is Pratt Witney Canadian? not sure) with Israeli avionics & arnament. The Israeli avionics are superior to the American ones in many respects, esp. for the IAFs purposes.
LASTLY: let’s talk RETURN ON INVESTMENT. For America’s investment in Israel, they actually see a return. This is not true of investments in the vile Saudi or Egyptian regimes.
The original American F4 phantom came without GUNS! The designers thought the age of the Air to Air Missle meant the end of guns. As anyone who follows this stuff knows, the first generation of AtoA missles were horribly unreliable (Israeli pilots were known to drop them into the Ocean so that they could at least gain maneavourability). The result was that F4 pilots were being taken out too easily in Vietnam. When Israel was finally okayed to but the Phantom they ABSOLUTELY INSISTED ON GUNS. When the americans saw how well Israel was using the Phantoms they began a retrofit in combat (this helped, unfortunately, a gun ‘retrofit’ does not a well integrated weapons system make)
The original Patriot Missle, which CNN showed during the first gulf war supposedly knocking down Scuds was ABSOLUTELY USELESS (since the Patriot was an AA weapon…)! The Americans tried to get it working for years – it took the Arrow (best anti-ballistic missle system in the world) and Oren Yarok Radar system & then Israel engineers working on the Patriot III to finally get it right.
Israel is a world leader in the development of UAVs, this technology too is shared with the USA.
Israeli missles & bombs are among the best in the world, these as well as Israeli avionics have been shared with the USA.
Israel is also the most experienced army in the world in dealing with embedded Jihadists in civilian populations – tactics and intelligence sharing are CONSTANT.
In terms of biotech, Internet, cyber-warfare Israel is a world leader – this too benefits the USA.
Of course – these are all tangibles. I haven’t even begun to speak of Israel’s place in the MidEast. Israel is but a front in the War on Terror. It’s enemies and the US enemies are identical, they are after a world Caliphate, as in Pan Islamism.
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As for the Israeli weapons system, I often hear that Israel is an ‘American army’… Never understood how any self respecting military primer would make such a statement. Other than the air force it’s arnaments are very different from what the Americans carry (and as for air forces: all air forces are made up of either predominantly American or USSR planes… That’s true worldwide… )
The Main Battle Rifle through the years was: The FN,
the UZI (more of a submachine gun) – Israeli invention
the Galil (an Israeli innovation that provides AK47 ruggedness, with closer to M16 range & accuracy… M16 & colts don’t do well in dust or dirt – they’ve never been ideal for the IDF)
After the Yom Kippur war they recieved tons of long and short M16s, so you do see those still.
Today Israel is switching to 100% indigenous Tavor Bullpup rifle (an amazing weapon).
The machine guns: FN MAG is the heavy, Israeli Negev is the light…
Guns: ever heard of the Desert Eagle?
Israel’s tanks have always been at least somewhat ‘Israeli’. In the early years they recieved Centurions and even Shermans but these were immediately “Israelized”, the end result is a different creature than what it started as. The chains and cage armour employed by the USA today was retrofitted to old tanks by Israel decades ago.
Israels main battle tank is the Merkava, there have been 4 major revisions of this beast. It is the perfect tank for Israel – a very difficult mark to attain as Israel has EXTREMELY VARIED TERRAIN: The south is arid desert, the north is rocky at some points and muddy, mucky, ‘tank-killer’ territory in the Golan & on the Lebanon border. I have heard from colleagues that an Abrams tanks tracks broke while trying to traverse the Golan (this doesn’t mean the Abrams is inferior btw:, it just means the Merkava is better suited to Israel).
The shells used by the Israeli tankers are the most advanced on the planet (check out the LAHIT).
Israel has developed several fighter planes as well. The Nesher & Kfir’s designed and built in Israel are still being used by some South American Armies. The LAVI was never completed by Israel but it was WAY AHEAD OF ITS TIME. Many believe it was scrapped because it would have threatened the F16s exports. We know the LAVI was WAY WAY WAY ahead of its time because one of China’s fighter planes, the J10, is a clone of the decades old LAVI!
Israel’s navy is full of Israeli boats and arnaments (+ European subs).
Check out: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/ – amazing site (odd, seems some of the links are broken, maybe t’was hacked again, has happened to a few sites since Gaza conflict began). Or look at the companies IAI or Elbit
@wingless:
Thanks. Nice presentation. Very informative.
“When a ten-year-old is running at your vehicle with an AK-47, do you shoot the kid? Yes, you shoot the kid.”
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2009/01/three-posts-on-judging-and-justifying-israel.html
@26 Scott,
“I’m not sure whether israel is trying to kill innocent people or not, which is terrifying. I’m also not sure whether the 9/11 attacks in new york were intended to kill innocent people, or simply to demolish a national icon”
Wow – and some people on here think I’m naive!
Hmm let me see – they could of flew into the Statue of Liberty – but that’s quite small and might hit some people. Howabout Mount Rushmore – fairly big and it’s a national icon.
Scott – I don’t agree (ask Yonason) with the set up of modern Israel but it’s here now. If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear. Were those in the middle east including those (not all) Palestinians cheering about 9/11 just because two large towers from the 70s were demolished?
Yes they were after icons – but they wanted to kill as many as possible. If Hamas threw rockets at the country that I was a Prime Minister day in day out – then I too would squash them.
Gaffa, I think you’re responding to Justin’s comments…not mine.
Justin, I appreciate this discussion. Thank you for participating.
Thank you as well for your links. Unfortunately, I’ve seen so much blatant propaganda from Palestinian sources-particularly on this issue-that I can’t trust their claims. If you’ve got an independent, UN, Red Crescent, or something like that, then I might be more trusting, but Hamas in particular seeks to create civilian casualties by using human shields (as we’ve seen in several videos and in their own speeches now), and they do this to play their strongest card: world sympathy. Independent source, or just unreliable, often-heavily-biased Palestinian claims about Palestinians?
btw guys, I like that link showing that Israel does make a lot of its own weapons. Given that it’s 6-7yrs old, a newer one might make for an interesting and more relevant comparison. The point remains, however, that Israel is not (as Justin believed) completely dependent on US weapons. They weren’t when they were created, and they’re less and less as time goes by. I think it’s also worth noting that if you combine the foreign aid (military and economic from DoD and DoS) to the multitude of Arab nations surrounding Israel (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Oman, UAE, Iraq, Kuwait) and combine the amount of oil revenue these nations get from the west…it seems like there’s a difference between the Arabs and Israel to the tune of hundreds of billions a year in favor of the Arab nations.
True or false: Hamas declared they would break the cease fire on 12/18/08 and again on 12/19/08? It’s that simple. There was a cease-fire in place, and working-brokered by Egypt, supported by the US.
“area”? This is the crux of the excuse to fire rockets at Israeli civilians? Where does “area” end? Is it only the Israel/Palestine “area”? Is it all “areas” that have been Muslim? Where does this “area” end, and who defines it-the few Hamas rocket launching people, or the millions of Israelis? See, I thought the people launching rockets were just a small number of Palestinians.
Again, you’re dodging the question of whether or not the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza can more effectively oppose rocket-launching-Hamas guys or more effectively shake their fists at Israeli planes. Responsible parents MUST keep their kids safe-everything else is secondary, and part of keeping them safe is keeping them away from guys that are bomb-magnets. They can do nothing against the Israelis, so either move away from the bomb-magnet guys or get the bomb-magnet guys to move out of your basement. Allowing them to stay in their basements, their hospitals, and their schools is to harbor them, to aid them, and to neglect their responsibilities as parents which is: #1 keep your kids safe. Gaza’s a small place, but if there’s not a lot of terrorists, then there’s not a lot of problem. In any event, Palestinians in Gaza will be far more effective at getting Hamas out of their basements than in getting Israel to stop bombing their basements to get Hamas.
GaffaUK #29, per the words of Bin Laden the 911 strike was not aimed at civilians but the US economic and military centers. From an interview with Al Jazeera correspondent, Taysir Alouni in late October 2001:
The myth that AQ struck “American icons” of freedom is one begat by a very uneducated media. It was an act of war, aimed to knock America to it’s knees by attacking it’s financial centers (WTC), the command center (Pentagon) and it’s leadership (WH or Capitol… most likely the former).
Civilians are a moot point since OBL does not differentiate between military and civilians as enemies.
You will find the pertinent interview hotlinks at Debunk 911 Myths.
@Justin L:
What do you mean “appeasing the word”? That appeasement itself would go a long way to keeping America safe?
I’d hardly call Israel an “unwanted regime”. They have shared values and a democratic system of government. Why on earth would we ever abandon Israel in hopes of being liked by those who do not share our values and beliefs?
What you’re saying is you’re not opposed to other nations working out oil contracts and dealing with tyrants, vetoing various UN resolutions, “and so much more”; but you’re opposed to the U.S.
I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]
Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.”
review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.
Interesting, as I actually read quite a bit of anti-Israel press in American media; no question about it in international media.
Again,
I’m not quite seeing your train of thinking; or maybe I am, but am baffled by the moral inversion; or refusal to look at things through a moral lens, but through the lens of moral relativism and a belief that a “voice consensus” equates with “the moral choice”.
If it were left up to “moral” majority/voice consensus, do you think the rest of the world should have a say in American elections? Should we let the rest of the world- the majority opinion- dictate U.S. policies?
I think you’re failing to perceive my point, which is the grievances against Israel and the U.S. is based upon flawed perceptions, slant perspective, and lopsided propaganda.
Yes, American military force is active around the world…..and? So? Do you have an inkling of what our military does on behalf of the rest of the world? No, you don’t. What you only see are the negative “accomplishments”, as seen throught the filter lens of anti-American perceptions, perspective, and propaganda.
How is America’s financial support of Israel unreasonable and unfair, given our financial assist to other foreign nations, including Arab states?
What countries have a more “effective democratic system”? Is France’s media much freer than the U.S.? What nations are you referring to, specifically?
I stand by the statement that the UN is dysfunctional. Yes, liberal elitist old Europe and major countries are also part of the problem. 3 out of 4 of the members of the UN are despots, dictators, rogues and terrorists themselves; Old Europe is comprised of appeasers; note, too, that France and Germany weren’t opposed to U.S. invasion of Iraq on “moral grounds”, but upon selfish self-interest in oil contracts and billions owed to them by Saddam (along with Russia and China).
All nations are not created equal. A nation like Sudan can sit on the UN Human Rights Commission. Do you really draw moral equivalence between Sudan and the U.S.? I wouldn’t be surprised if you do see the U.S. on the same moral plane.
If America gave up its superpower status to the “will of the majority” nations, life on planet earth would be further removed from achieving any kind of utopia you may have envisioned for the world.
Justin, I have a very difficult time believing that CNN international is anything close to being a pro-Israel cheerleader.
What are your examples of credible, free media?
There you go again, with the moral relativism and refusal to acknowledge that there is a clear distinction between right and wrong and good and evil.
Do you think the Soviet Union was an evil empire?
Where are you getting this morally inverted perspective from? Noam Chomsky?
See earlier link.
Ok, and then? Israel took the land and made it prosper. When they relinquished the Gaza Strip, they left behind greenhouses and other agricultural installations. The Palestinians were shown how to use them, and basically inherited a major source of export income. And like so many things, they made a mess of it. In the case of these greenhouses, they were destroyed because they had Jewish cooties.
Without Israel as a scapegoat, I find it hard to believe that the Middle East would suddenly change and be gripped by peace and prosperity.
No, it would mean less freedom, less democracy, more suffering in the world. The U.S. has been thrust into the role of global police. I’d love it if our allies contributed more to military defense and we could withdraw troops from South Korea, Japan, Germany, and all the places on the globe where we are relied upon to keep our allies safe.
Oh yes, we supported Pinochet, a brutal leader who created the most dynamic economy in Latin America and who, under pressure from American government, allowed a referendum on his own power rule in 1988, then gave it up altogether 2 years later. Whereas liberal elites and lefties have no problem with Mao and Castro.
Every one of the “dictators” you think the U.S. installed/supported played a vital role in preventing the other alternative, usually a more ruthless ruler/communist regime. In the case of the deeply pro-American Shah, what took his place when we failed to act (under Carter) to support our ally? A secular democratic movement? No. A more repressive, more brutal regime of Islamic militancy, the legacy of which we face today. That’s what happens when America takes an isolationist foreign policy stance and doesn’t intervene.
Uh…no. Hamas is in the wrong. It is to be held accountable for civilian deaths. We accepted Hamas’s “election” results; we don’t accept their breaking of the cease-fire.
They’re meaningless to me as well. But they have claims other than religious. Go back and re-read my link above.
And you’ve side-stepped my point: Islamic radical fundamentalist teachings and culture breeds the hatred for Jews. It isn’t the Israelis who are intolerant, desiring to live in peace. The burden of peace is on the Arabs whose hatred is beyond reason.
Russia couldn’t have defeated Hitler without U.S. aid and supplies; defeating Hitler’s Germany was a combined effort.
Now since you seem to consider “democratic majority rule” to be the apex of “morality”, I suppose you don’t see a problem with Hitler’s rise to power, anymore than you do Hamas? Because who are you to judge? Who are you to say what’s right and what’s wrong? What’s good and what’s evil? Are there no “bad decisions”, so long as majority decides?
Ah, I see…so dropping the A-Bombs amounted to “U.S. terrorist genocide”? In conventional warfare between states, the people who support their armies are part of the war effort.
These are sovereign nations whose governments are still in their infant stage and welcome U.S., Coalition, UN, and NATO assist. Do you notice decisions made by those governments that conflict with what our government desires? Hardly puppet regimes.
Redundant point already addressed. Since you “no-sold” the link to my post earlier, I’ll reprint it here in its entirety (you’re welcome!):
@Wordsmith:
Oh, come on Wordsmith. What do the people of Iraq and, anyone we’ve liberated from fascism, know that Pelosi and Reid don’t? ….um, uh, ….nevermind. (Nice Job, btw!) Now we just have to liberate ourselves.
@GaffaUK:
“If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear”
Precisely, and well said.
Here’s a Jewish approach, some of which you might even find yourself in agreement with….
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/668896/jewish/Whos-Protecting-America.htm
@Justin L:
“I’d like to see a day when the world is under a unified government “
All we need are a few fairies who can wave their magic wands and make the evil people nice so that the UN can govern them all in peace?
Well, maybe not the UN…
The problem with these “peace at all costs” thugs is that what they blindly advocate and belligerently demand always ends up being all cost and no peace.
israel……………..
you are screwed
@jainphx:
yeah i agree with jainphx