[...] Just who does he think he is? I mean…c’mon, the black kennedy didn’t even address the Berliners in German! About that Sermon to the Germans: I wonder if Americans will appreciate Obama’s [...]

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[...] Elitism: Barack Obama thinks he’s better than the average American. He believes that Americans are stupid. Therefore, he will be justified in putting forth all sorts [...]

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“Yonason,

You stated earlier that the “Lefty fever swamps”

Uh, …that was Aye Chihuahua who said that. Must be all that smoke you’re trying to blow our way that’s getting in your own eyes.

(AyeChi – I agree with you, btw.)

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Yonason,

You stated earlier that the “Lefty fever swamps get the luxury of redefining everything according to their own needs.”… that the economy is defined as in “recession” since it is politically expedient.”

I’ve shown you this is not the case. Leftists are not using ‘smoke and mirrors’ to create the impression we are in a recession.

All the premises for my argument came from surveys in the conservative bastion of the WSJ. Presently 51% of economists believe us to be in recession and over 3/4s of the American population. Job losses for 6 months in a row, negative trends in new construction, auto sales tanking, credit markets fragile, services sector shirking, home prices still falling, gas and food prices at record highs, and you want to accent the 49% in the WSJ debate that the economy is not in recession. It reminds me of the tale of a young boy who after playing in the mud was told by his mother he was all muddy exclaimed, “Not all of me, otherwise I could not see you.”

Publicly and practically, the answer is clear. You need not be a lefty to see it.

Furthermore, Obama has had nothing to do with the recession, as you stated above.

Finally, I stated in my original post (13) defining a recession has political strings attached to it; no doubt the WSJ, in an election year, is not exempt to those strings. To say otherwise is to foolishly not acknowledge its bias. (Many of you certainly are quick to mention, rail about the bias in the NYT.) Not to acknowledge these strings in the WSJ is your bias given all the conclusions on the matter of recession.

———–

later addition: “no” recession signs here either:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=ae5sxNLn0HFk

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doug

If I don’t know who they are, then they are, as I said “anonymous TO ME”.

And see your own words above in my #18 where I point out that your sources aren’t consistent enough for you to make the claims you do. “Consensus” is just my way of saying, their ain’t one (though it’s a lot closer than on AGW)

And there is no way of knowing what the WSJ said as long as you’re doing the interpretation, and you still haven’t told me where to find the material.

So, if I have to look it up myself…

A – Most Economists in Survey Say Recession Is Here
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120534519452630845.html March 13, 2008

One month later…
B – Recession? It Doesn’t Add Up
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/04/24/recession-it-doesnt-add-up/ April 24, 2008

Then, two months later, and nearly two months ago….
C – Recession? Not So Fast, Say Some
http://s.wsj.net/article/SB121068163716188223.html May 14, 2008

And, most recently, it seems they agree to disagree…
Those who think inflation is the main worry don’t think a recession has begun and, on average, say the odds are just over 50-50 that one will occur.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121570752225642929.html July 11, 2008;

So much for “consensus”

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Yonason says,

Ok [ ] so there seems to be a “consensus” that we “might” be in one according to the opinion of one anonymous (to me) source.

No– there is no “seems” regarding a consensus: The conservative WSJ, the paper at American’s capitalistic center surveyed their 51 chosen economists and discovered that more than 70% believed “the economy is in recession.”

Therefore, to make a case it “seems to be a consensus” you must find fault in the WSJ’s survey.

No– there is no “might” about a recession either: More than 70% said our “economy is _in_ a recession”.

No– there is no “anonymous source” involved here. We are looking at the conclusions found by a survey in the WSJ conducted in March.

Yonason, then quotes one individual (in his post 21) that believes Obama is the main reason for investors concerns regarding the weak market!

Yet in May the National Association for Business Economics did a survey of economists and found:

(Bloomberg) The U.S. economy will probably exit from a recession by the end of the next quarter as credit markets improve after a year of turmoil, according to a survey by the National Association for Business Economics.

The worst of the U.S. credit crunch and housing slump is about over, and growth will pick up to 2.1 percent in the second half, according to the poll of 52 professional forecasters taken April 17 to May 1. More than 60 percent of the economists surveyed predicted that businesses and consumers will find it easier to borrow in the final six months of the year.

The share of analysts who said the U.S. is in or will have a recession this year rose to 56 percent from 45 percent in February. They anticipate that the Federal Reserve’s steepest interest-rate cuts in two decades, tax rebates, record exports and some stabilization in housing will lead to a recovery this quarter or next.
…
Weakness in housing was cited as the greatest single cause for pushing the economy into a recession.

A recession hasn’t been officially declared. The economy likely peaked in December or January and then started to decline, Martin Feldstein, a Harvard University professor and president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, said in an interview this month. The bureau’s business cycle dating committee officially determines recessions.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=atJCjnItaPRk

So, we are in a recession here again, ‘unofficially’, with Obama never even mentioned as the “cause”.

Therefore, Gramm’s comments regarding our delusional mass public perception of the economy are not only wrong, but vengeful, as his anti-populist understanding of the economy is confined to his own personal insight, wealth, and experience; as it is a most disdainful kind of pronouncement to make: to accuse those with less of “whining”, of having illegitimate pain, when the evidence states there is now more pain, it places his face as an occult presence contrasted to the public square, and therefore he stands clearly in this context as an elitist.

This is, again, why McCain, wisely said today, “Gramm does not speak for me,” even though he does.

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Ok, Doug, so there seems to be a “consensus” that we “might” be in one according to the opinion of one anonymous (to me) source.

I would be interested to know what they say they (whoever “they” are) think “might” be causing it.

Here’s one guy who has an opinion that makes sense to me.

I don’t think that the current Dow bear market was caused by last August’s credit crunch. Nor do I believe it’s being caused by a recession that is allegedly starting right now (having failed to appear in the first or second quarter). Stocks are forward looking; when they drop now, it means investors are worried about things that are coming later — 6 to 9 months later. In other words, they’re worried about Obama.

And if you were smart, you would be, too.
____________________________________________________________

“That’s [not bothering to give sources] more cumbersome for those that want to fact-check it, but it works best that way for me.” — doug

Heaven forfend you should break a sweat to actually show us any consideration. By all means, be a taker and not a giver.

ok. Let’s do the math. One person, i.e., you, can be considerate and do the 5 to 10 minutes worth of research so your readers don’t have to. Alternatively, you can let 6 of us do a combined total of 30 to 60 person-minutes (each of us has to dig it out ourselves) because you are lazy. It’s one of the reasons we don’t take you, and others like you seriously. YOU DON’T CARE! And if you don’t, then why should we?

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The lastest WSJ poll in March found most economists believed we were in a recession:

(WSJ) Economists in the latest Wall Street Journal forecasting survey are increasingly certain the U.S. has slid into recession, a view reinforced by new data showing a sharp drop in retail sales last month.

“The evidence is now beyond a reasonable doubt,” said Scott Anderson of Wells Fargo & Co.

Thirty-six of 51 respondents, or more than 70%, said in a survey conducted March 7-11 that the economy is in recession.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120534519452630845.html
——–
I’ve found when I link to past 4 or more sites it’s almost certain my post goes into the junk filter. I don’t know if others are as ‘heavy linkers’ as I am, or if they have the same problem. So, I’ve simply been listing the news source prior to the quote. That’s more cumbersome for those that want to fact-check it, but it works best that way for me.

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scriptamanent – #14

A nice rational and well articulated piece. I enjoyed reading it.

But the Left won’t listen, despite the fact that you make sense. They need windmills to tilt at, and they don’t like it when you tell them they aren’t there. Besides, it doesn’t matter if there aren’t any because they can always create them, or, failing that, make believe they exist.

You have your share of Leftists in Spain, so I’m sure you are familiar with that concept, though I wonder just how similar the particulars and the dynamics are between Spain’s Left and America’s (as well as relative proportions of the population).

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Doug, it’s a wonder your head doesn’t hurt all the time.

First:
A – “there are even conservatives that think we are IN [a recession]”
B – “Greenspan has said, ‘were ON THE BRINK OF a recession’.”

Which is it? Are we there, or aren’t we? “On the brink” doesn’t mean the same as “we are in.”

Second:
A – “The conflicting views on what the Fed should focus on reflects differing views on where the economy is headed.”
B – “they say the odds are just over 50-50 that one will occur [which means it hasn't yet, and it very well might not].” (I have no idea what these “odds” mean or how they were generated or by whom, and my guess is you don’t either – which means they aren’t “facts” but speculations of anonymous folks whose qualifications to make such pronouncements may be non-existent.)

But with “odds” like “even-money” you think the “economics is settled”, eh? Sounds like another “consensus” thing going on here. Sheesh!

And, STOP QUOTING STUFF WITHOUT SHOWING WHERE YOU GET IT!!! (not the WSJ, altough a link would be nice, but the other stuff)

Finally, you are right about one thing, “It’s not a “lefty” thing on whether we are or not in a recession,…” But it IS a “Lefty thing” to make false/misleading statements about it, and to totally misunderstand everything related to the topic they are preaching about, and to ALWAYS get wrong what to do next.

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