21 Jun

Obama Pulls Out The Race Card

                                       

Obama playing the victim card once again:

“It is going to be very difficult for Republicans to run on their stewardship of the economy or their outstanding foreign policy,” Obama told a fundraiser in Jacksonville, Florida. “We know what kind of campaign they’re going to run. They’re going to try to make you afraid.

“They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?”

Yes, we will definitely make your inexperience an issue. As well as your bad judgement, your cluelessness on foreign policy, your tendency to play politics as usual, and your Marxist views on how to run this country. But not one Republican has said he doesn’t deserve to be President based upon his skin color. While I have very little respect for Obama, this victim card crapola is beneath even him.

But not surprising. His surrogates in the MSM have been pushing this issue for awhile now and it was only a matter of time before he jumped on the victim train.

About Curt

Curt served in the Marine Corps for four years and has been a law enforcement officer in Los Angeles for the last 20 years.
This entry was posted in Barack Obama. Bookmark the permalink. Saturday, June 21st, 2008 at 8:39 am
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50 Responses to Obama Pulls Out The Race Card

  1. Kyle says: 1

    “ They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced.”

    Yea, I’m pretty scared of an Obama Presidency for those very reasons. This is not a good time to hand the country over to hack amateurs.

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  2. stix1972 says: 2

    I have no problem with Obamassiah being black, it is his totall Marxist views and his lack of any kind of intelligence on Foreign Policy. He has no clue on how to form a foerign policy without talking or coddling our enemies. He is a total Left wing hack.

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  3. SpideyTerry says: 3

    “He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name.”

    No, no, no. The word isn’t “inexperienced”; it’s “stupid.” I don’t care about Obama’s skin color. In fact, I resent any talk from him or his supporters that try to say otherwise. I guess you could say I’m bitter. Hey, since I’m a PA voter and a Christian, I guess that is in line with Obama “logic.”

    I’m mainly not voting for Obama because he is weak on terror. He can’t even stomach facing McCain in townhall meetings and cries foul virtually every time he’s legitmately criticized. How could he possibly handle the threats to this country based on that? Obama talks a big game, but never steps up to the plate when the time comes.

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  4. Aye Chihuahua says: 4

    My advice to Senator Obama is to run as a Man and Leader, and the American people will evaluate you as such, not as a victim. This is a Presidential race, based solely on a capacity to lead the United States of America. It is not about skin tone…however, perhaps we should come to expect these immature statements.

    It also seems rather humorous that the Presidential candidate who was supposed to be such a “uniter” and transcend race is the one talking about it the most. If Senator Obama was confident in his abilities and character, he would not need to create a crutch for failure. Senator Obama has just tipped his hand, any criticism of him and his policies will be directly attributed to racism. I congratulate Senator Obama for taking race relations in America back some 30 years.

    Lt. Col. Allen West, Candidate for Congress in FL District 22

    Lt. Col. West’s Campaign Site

    Ouch!

    That’s gonna leave a mark.

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  5. Dave Noble says: 5

    Aye Chi,

    Where in the world did Senator Obama get his crazy ideas from? Maybe from all the people who relish calling him Barrack HUSSEIN Obama. Maybe from all those who emphasize his association with Reverend Wright and his BLACK separatist theology. The race and religion card was played a long time ago against him. He would be a irresponsible if he ignored that political reality.

    BTW who is this “authority” Lt Col West, who if I noticed correctly is not even a member of Congress? Are you interested in hearing what my brother-in-law thinks about this? Or a guy I know at work? He’s an O-5 in the Navy Reserve.

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  6. Aye Chihuahua says: 6

    Barrack HUSSEIN Obama

    That’s the guy’s name. Calling him by his name is not racist.

    Maybe from all those who emphasize his association with Reverend Wright and his BLACK separatist theology.

    Obama spent 20 years in that church listening to those sermons. Never once did he speak out or distance himself from those positions until it was a politically expedient choice. Before the firestorm, he told an interviewer that he was there every Sunday, but when the heat got turned up, he claimed that he wasn’t there and didn’t know anything about it.

    He and crazy Uncle Jerry had it all planned out ahead of time. They both knew that a time would come that Obama would have to distance himself.

    The underlying questions and objections to Obama in relation to the church and his unsavory associations are based on the “content of his character” not the “color of his skin”.

    They are based on judgment and I think that deep down you know that even though you wouldn’t dare admit it here.

    Where in the world did Senator Obama get his crazy ideas from?

    Perhaps from crazy Uncle Jerry who preached it to him for 20 years.

    Are you interested in hearing what my brother-in-law thinks about this? Or a guy I know at work? He’s an O-5 in the Navy Reserve.

    Are either of these people black men running for Congress?

    If so, then a comparison of their opinions of race and politics to those of Lt Col West would be valid.

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  7. Dave Noble says: 7

    Aye Chi, your disingenousness is breathtaking. Whoever called Richard Nixon, “Milhouse”? BTW, does Ronald Reagan have a middle name? What is it? Middle names are, after all, very important in your world. Answer in the real world? It doesn’t matter a hill of beans. Except to paranoids and racists.

    Dan – With respect to Barrack Obama, I do not support him, because I for one am not a Muslim, and I don’t want my head cut off.

    Right here in black and white, on your site. No negative response or minor correction from anyone (other than me).

    And now one black man’s opinion is dispostive with respect to another black man, even though no one has ever heard of him. That’s racist.

    Oh, I see, if you’re running for Congress, your opinion matters. That’s elitist.

    Let me guess, Lt Col West wouldn’t be a Republican, would he? Not that it matters, just interested.

    You, my friend, are the Rubber Band Man, you will stretch as far as you need to to make a point.

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  8. Aye Chihuahua says: 8

    Right here in black and white, on your site.

    Once again, like so many other times, you’re totally off base and inaccurate.

    This is not, and has never been, my site.

    I have no ownership interest or management or moderation responsibilities here.

    I simply post here just like everyone else.

    Let me see if I can sort out the rest of your spewage:

    That’s racist.

    That’s elitist

    Obama and his supporters, the Clintons and their supporters injected race into the presidential campaign way back in the primaries.

    Now that he is the presumptive assumptive nominee Obama has chosen to continue with that mantra.

    Obama, the candidate who claims to want to transcend and move on from racial politics has chosen to make a vile, scurrilous accusation against the Republicans.

    Point me in the direction of any audio or video clip of any Republican who is using Obama’s race as a political issue.

    There is not one shred of evidence to support his accusation.

    An accusation that you defend nonetheless.

    Lt Col West, who is black, is running for Congress. He released a statement regarding the injection of race into the presidential contest and I quoted him.

    Based on the fact that I chose to post Mr. West’s comments, I am now “racist” and “elitist”.

    This “elitist” accusation is coming from the same person who, in another post, says “And who is this guy?” about an ordinary former Obama supporter.

    Dave it looks like you will reject legitimate, factual criticisms of Obama whether they come from the common man or from the “elite”.

    I understand now.

    You’re an equal opportunity Obamaton.

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  9. Dave Noble says: 9

    Aye Chi,

    Nice dodge. I wasn’t claiming you had an ownership interest in this site or had control over its content. I think you know what I meant, but I’ll make it explicit. If anyone makes a vaguely liberal or even questioning comment on this site, you and others respond. I have no problem with that. But when Dan encouraged by the “Obama is a Muslim” whispering campaign, reverts to straight out bigotry, there is not a peep out of anyone.

    With respect to race: One of the reason the Rev. Wright controversy worked is not just that he made controversial statements. It put the inside of a black church, unfamiliar and intimidiating to many whites, on everyone’s television. Add to that the groundwork laid by Sean Hannity through conflating black separatism with black liberation theology. No, John McCain hasn’t made any references to race. He knows better than that. I am not suggesting he would, even if he could get away with it. But he doesn’t have to. A Fox commentator refers to the Barrack-Michelle “dap” as possibly a “terrorist fist jab.” A Fox scroll refers to Michelle Obama as Barrack’s Baby Mama. Rush plays “Barrack the Magic Negro” to the tune of Puff the Magic Dragon and sung by a “street” black. All innocent, no agenda? And please don’t suggest there is no connection between the conservative media and the Republican Party.

    My objection to the gentleman in the video and Lt Col West is that they are posited as spokesmen for disgruntled Barrack Obama supporters and black politicians, respectively.
    In fact, they are merely expressing their own individual opinions, of no greater value or significance than yours or mine. It’s not that I in my benighted Obamatonicity can bear no criticism of Barrack Obama, it’s that you find it all – regardless of its source or significance-
    so satisfying.

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  10. Aye Chihuahua says: 10

    You wrote:

    Right here in black and white, on your site.

    Then you wrote:

    I wasn’t claiming you had an ownership interest in this site or had control over its content.

    It’s pretty clear what you meant. There was no margin for error. Your denials to the contrary are… what is the word I am looking for?…. disingenuous.

    It put the inside of a black church, unfamiliar and intimidiating to many whites, on everyone’s television.

    That sounds like a racist comment to me Mr. Noble.

    But when Dan encouraged by the “Obama is a Muslim” whispering campaign, reverts to straight out bigotry, there is not a peep out of anyone.

    Dan said, and I’m paraphrasing, that he didn’t want to become separated from his head at the hands of a Muslim.

    That’s a view held by any sane person and there’s nothing bigoted or racist about it.

    A Fox scroll refers to Michelle Obama as Barrack’s Baby Mama

    Michelle Obama introduced her husband as “My baby’s daddy” on election night 2004 when he won the Senate race. Referring to her as Baby Mama, a variation of her own statement is suddenly racist.

    Right.

    Rush plays “Barrack the Magic Negro” to the tune of Puff the Magic Dragon and sung by a “street” black.

    You do realize that is a parody right? It’s actually sung by someone doing an Al Sharpton imitation.

    The underlying principle is the illustration of absurdity by being absurd.

    Are you really trying to get someone else to believe that Rush created this idea himself? You might want to read this LA Times article before you make that leap.

    If you listen to the words of the parody you’ll find quotes in there from a wide variety of Democrats, including Joe Biden. If you want to apply the “racism” accusation to anyone, you’ll have to search out the people whose words are quoted.

    Using the words of others to make a point is actually quite effective at illustrating the point.

    My objection to the gentleman in the video and Lt Col West is that they are posited as spokesmen for disgruntled Barrack Obama supporters and black politicians, respectively.

    Actually that’s an extrapolation that you are making on your own.

    Neither the comments from Lt Col West nor the video from the former Obama supporter were presented as being representative of a larger group.

    It’s not that I in my benighted Obamatonicity can bear no criticism of Barrack Obama

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Your pattern of behavior speaks much, much louder than your words.

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  11. MataHarley says: 11

    If anyone makes a vaguely liberal or even questioning comment on this site, you and others respond. I have no problem with that. But when Dan encouraged by the “Obama is a Muslim” whispering campaign, reverts to straight out bigotry, there is not a peep out of anyone.

    Okay.. guess I’m short tempered today. But here goes…

    Dave Noble, the reason most of us didn’t respond to the “Obama is a Muslim” bit is that few of us believe it, nor consider it an issue. If you read the threads, or if you didn’t suffer from a reading comprehension/assimilation of facts problem, you’d know that. You can count on one hand those that believe that “whispered” campaign on FA. The rest of us can’t stand the guy because he’s two steps to the right of a Communist (that’s Marxist/socialist to those of you, not in the know of historic definition…)

    Hang, most of us don’t even believe Larry Johnson, the ardent HRC supporter (or “HillaryImagine that… a DNC rumour concoction, yet the conservatives again take the blame because… well… that’s what liberal/progressives do. They find someone other than themselves to take the blame.

    The reason we respond to “vaguely liberal or even questioning” comments is because generally they are so filled with DNC talking points, we just love to point you to source material and watch you scramble, changing the subject, because it totally dissects your obedient thinking to party/media propaganda. Repeat after me… “yes we can, yes we can…”

    Let’s see… did I cover it all? I think so. If not, Aye Chi… you want to add? After all, we’re one and the same, per Juanita/Tia/Newnew/Teresa/Jaz, right? The irony… we’re “the same”, while she’s the one posting as five different people T’would be gut busting were it not so ironically pitiful.

    Okay… I’ll go pour a glass of wine and see if I can recollect some of my patience for humans now.

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  12. Dave Noble says: 12

    Mata,

    Next time, have the glass of wine first.

    So — “few of you believe” the Larry Johnson or the “Obama is a Muslim” hokum? I’m glad to hear that, but you could have fooled me from reading this blog. There was a recent post reporting that Obama’s half-brother says he was raised a Muslim. Further, it is a gut buster to suggest, as Aye Chi, does that there is no significance to continually using Obama’s middle name. That’s the way whispering campaigns work, you get to have plausible deniability.

    If you personally don’t believe that nonsense, Mata, that’s to your credit. But I don’t think you can speak for everyone on this blog at the primary, secondary, or tertiary levels of participation.
    I don’t believe you can even speak for the other authors. But don’t get mad at me because I take what I see here at face value. This reminds me of Aye Chi’s angry response that I should never accuse him of dogmatic assertions right after he had just made a string of them without Fact 1 to back them up. He insisted he always has a fact to back up his assertions. Aye Chi, it’s simply arrogant for you to expect me to accept your assertions are fact-based without those facts being presented. That’s how rational argument works.

    Finally, I am not “Juanita/Tia/Newnew/Teresa/Jaz” I’m Dave Noble, that’s my real name and that’s the only one I have ever used. And if you think neither you, Aye Chi, or anyone else of the dominant conservative bent on this blog ever uses Republican/conservative talking points, you are fooling yourself.

    Oh, BTW, Aye Chi defended the piece of disgusting bigotry below that accuses all Muslim men of the atrocities committed by certain Muslims. Hitler did that in Mein Kampf. He started by referring to Karl Marx’ Jewishness and eventually used Jew and Communist interchangeably. Try substituting Judaism for Islam in the quote below and then reciting a list of anti-Semitic generalizations. The author also claims Obama is not only a Muslim, but an Islamist as well.

    “Credit with his brother Islamist, no doubt.
    I don’t know why we males are worried about Islam. Just think, see a woman on the street and want her, beat the he** out of her, rape her and they will put her in jail or stone her to death. See a female you don’t like, get a pair of scissors and clip her clit. She becomes nothing more than a Burka covered receptacle for man’s pleasure, well something only slightly ahead of rosie red palm. but a receptacle anyway.”
    (Obama: I Will Have Credibility With Muslim World [Reader Post] – June 12)

    Now go have that glass of wine.

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  13. MataHarley says: 13

    Of course I can’t speak for everyone, Dave Noble. However I have read the FA authors’ opinions on it… which support my assessment of the FA authors perspective on the whole on the two subjects… the Michelle O tape, and his past Muslim faith.

    Curt has done all the posts about the Michelle Obama tape and in each one has expressed “take it for what it’s worth” and supplied no fodder supporting it’s existance. Mike’sA has stated he is “skeptical” as to it’s existance. I have also stated I have no clue if it exists, nor would I care if it did. Michelle has always appeard – to me – to be a fair weather patriot at best, and an affirmative action advocate in her beliefs.

    Skye, CurtG, Scott, Rob really haven’t weighed in, so my guess is that means they don’t care either. Hardly indication that they believe it exists.

    This brings us to the posted comments… none of which any of us has control over. Or let’s say censorship control that we choose to exercise. That someone visits a site and fills it with their personal venom is not to be confused with the opinion of the site itself. And since there are seven of us, there’s bound to be variance in issues. However on the Obama tape, those of us who have weighed in are all pretty much the same… ambivalent to the truth of the rumor.

    This is also true with the Muslim bit. I havent’ seen any FA author have accuse Obama of being a closet Muslim, ready to spring out after taking the oath of office. We all have recognized that he has Muslim roots which may affect his perspectives and policies, and that fact can’t be denied. But I’ve seen no one claim a hidden agenda as a closet, secretly practicing Muslim POTUS.

    Again, can’t control the posters. But it is not their views that makes up the FA author’s presentation. They are separate and apart from what each of us has to say. It is their response. I don’t judge HuffPo, Daily KOs or NoQuarter by their truly vicious posters. But I do judge them on their authors and presentation of material.

    But traveling around the blog world, the amount of venon expressed on most sites is rampid…. whether conservative or liberal/progressive. It appears the cyber world has created a society that no longer knows how to interact civilly. Too bad, isn’t it? Certainly a marked decline in humanity overall.

    I don’t respond personally to some of the extreme bias and venom because that kind of thought really doesn’t warrant my attention, IMHO. I recognize blind hatred and bigotry when I read it. There is no changing of minds and heart for that ailment. I’m certainly on record saying I’m done with some, and just skip over their posts completely when I see their names.

    That I do respond to you and some others with whom I disagree is actually a mark of respect. That I consider some of your talking points or presentation thoughtful enough to challenge, and see what you have to say.

    As for our “conservative talking points”, my opinion is that the “Bush lied” BS is based on media indoctrination and not facts. That we rebutt that may be construed as GOP talking points. But the fact is the GOP “talking points” reflects many of our beliefs after reading all this source material. I don’t ignore the left presentation of snippets of quotes here and there. For every quote of Bush, we can find historic quotes of Congress and prior admins saying the same about Middle East policy. So I just find the DNC talking points based in personal hatred for the man in the WH and a political agenda, and not on the historic facts. But I can’t help the GOP talking points happen to best portray what I have come to on my own, with reading.

    Then again, I’m no hard core GOP supporter either. Frankly my disdain for them is just under what it is for the DNC.

    BTW, never suggested you were Juanita/Tia/newnew/Jaz/Teresa. You’re way classes above that one, Dave Noble. Even if we do part company on most of the issues. That was a comment to Aye Chi, who was accused of being me in another persona.

    But yeah… that day I did have an “edge” (as I stated in my first sentence…). I try not to have those too often, but hey… I’m just human, ya know. At least I gave disclosure up front, eh?

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  14. Buzz says: 14

    Dave you know who brought Obama’s middle name into this? Barack Obama. There is a quote of him somewhere saying how he can think of no better opposite to George W. Bush than Barack Hussein Obama.

    Then there comes the insult to the public intelligence. The belief that Americans are all stupid and racist they will associate his middle name with Saddam, and that just can’t be done. You claim that using his middle name shows bigoted views towards him, I claim that your outrage over the use of his middle name demonstrates you and your elitist ilk’s disdain for the average person. If it doesn’t matter like you claim why do you seem so outraged by people uttering your messiah’s full name

    For him being a muslim now? No. Being raised a muslim, well there’s a distinct possibility of that. Let’s see, his father was muslim, he lived in a muslim country, his step-father is muslim. Do I believe he’s some manchurian candidate muslim? No. He didn’t have to worry about that after he found a Nation of Islam church that scratched off the references to Muhammed and replaced them with Jesus. He’s no more a muslim than he is a christian.

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  15. Dave Noble says: 15

    Thanks for the gracious response, Mata.

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  16. Dave Noble says: 16

    Buzz,

    You have probably heard the old adage, never pick a fight with someone you don’t know. I don’t mean that as a badass boast. Here’s what I mean — I come from a blue collar background. I worked full-time in a factory, while going to college full-time to complete my degree. You don’t know me, so don’t lay that elitist rap on me. Also don’t try to blow smoke up my keister and tell me the use of Obama’s middle name is accidental. Try selling that to somebody stupid or naive. I’m neither.

    And how do you know who is and is not a Christian?

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  17. Buzz says: 17

    Here’s what I mean — I come from a blue collar background. I worked full-time in a factory, while going to college full-time to complete my degree.

    Doesn’t mean that you are not among the smug elitist ilk. Or maybe you are just a pseudo-elitist. You still demonstrate your disdain for others because you are afraid hearing Hussein will make them not vote for the Golden boy.

    Also don’t try to blow smoke up my keister and tell me the use of Obama’s middle name is accidental.

    Its not at all accidental. Its also not all because people are racists, like you seem to think. Its used because it can be, because there is a fear among people like you and those in the MSM that the american people are stupid and racist and so they must not utter his middle name. Its used to mock. There are people online who will refer to him as “He who shall not be middle-named,” or Barack “No Middle-name” Obama.

    Try selling that to somebody stupid or naive. I’m neither.

    Debatable. You’ll be voting for someone who is either a complete empty-suit or a socialist marxist, likely a combination of the two and can’t speak a complete sentence without a teleprompter. Either way he’s got less experience than Dan Quayle did to be the Vice-President.

    And how do you know who is and is not a Christian?

    There are ways. Sitting in that church for 20 years, along with an extensive interview Obama had that I read through. He claimed he went there every Sunday. And like I said that place was a Nation of Islam church with the Muhammed serial numbers scratched off and Jesus replaced.

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  18. Dave Noble says: 18

    Buzz,

    Democrat=smug,unpatriotic,brainwashed Marxist elitist who hates America and wants to destroy it. Don’t have to listen to them, don’t have to debate them. If we could, we’d deport them to Venezuela.

    It must be wonderful to live in such a simple world. I used to live in a world like that too.
    Then I became an adult and entered a world where you respect other people’s opinions and have the courage to debate them instead of slinging insults like you were still in the schoolyard.

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  19. Buzz says: 19

    Democrat=smug,unpatriotic,brainwashed Marxist elitist who hates America and wants to destroy it. Don’t have to listen to them, don’t have to debate them. If we could, we’d deport them to Venezuela.

    never pick a fight with someone you don’t know.

    You don’t know me and don’t know what I think of other people. Don’t presume to know what I think of people who disagree with me.

    have the courage to debate them instead of slinging insults like you were still in the schoolyard.

    You mean by calling people racist and paranoid? Or calling them Rubberband man? What was that about you being an adult and not slinging insults like on a schoolyard? The only “insult” I’ve directed at you is that you are an elitist, and that’s based on your connection to the elitist cause of wanting Obama’s middle-name redacted from everything. You’ve flung far more insults than I have.

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  20. Aye Chihuahua says: 20

    Dave,

    In order to keep things relatively coherent I posted my response to a portion of your remarks here on the original thread here.

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  21. Aye Chihuahua says: 21

    Dave,

    Since you addressed me in your response to Mata, I’ll respond.

    So — “few of you believe” the Larry Johnson or the “Obama is a Muslim” hokum?

    I don’t know one way or the other about the allegations of Larry Johnson RE the “tape”.

    “we’re a divided country, we’re a country that is “just downright mean,” we are “guided by fear,” we’re a nation of cynics, sloths, and complacents.”

    “For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,”

    “Our souls are broken in this nation”

    “They can’t look to any one individual, whether it’s Barack or it’s the next new hope that’s going to appear to be that savior.”

    “I don’t lose sleep over it, because the realities are that, you know, as a black man, you know, Barack can get shot going to the gas station, you know.

    When you consider the other undoubtedly outrageous things that Michelle has said who knows what else is out there that we don’t know about.

    Whether she said “whitey” or not will not change my opinion of her and her husband and the plans that he has for this country.

    At the very least, I find Michelle Obama to be mean and cynical the very things she accuses this country of.

    Twenty years of Sundays will do that to a person.

    As for the Muslim business, here is what I have said and I continue to stand by it.

    BHO was born into a Muslim family. His father, grand-father, and step-father were all Muslim. The Muslim religion is patralinial (passed from the father), therefore Obama is Muslim by birth. The entire family that remains in Kenya is Muslim. His grandmother says that he was raised Muslim. His step brother just said the same thing a couple of weeks ago.

    We know that he attended a Muslim school for a period of time before returning to the states.

    All of those things are known.

    We also know that Obama says that he converted to Christianity.

    When you examine the church that he and his wife have attended for the last 20 years, only leaving when it was politically expedient, what you will find is troubling. Questionable relationships to radical individuals such as Crazy Uncle (Rev.) Jerry is just another question mark applied to the judgment and character of BHO.

    Obama says he has become a Christian. OK, fine. I have no problem with that. It’s certainly not my place to judge that. That job falls to someone else.

    Muslims however are not allowed to leave Islam. Under Islamic law a Muslim who converts away is considered an apostate and can be punished with the death penalty.

    Now if BHO has converted away then how is he going to be viewed by the Muslim world? I would say that would be an important thing to consider. Not only is there the overall safety issue but, considering what our world is facing right now, we need to be adult enough to consider if international relations will suffer as a result of the religious issue.

    Perhaps the main thing that concerns me about the whole Muslim issue is the failure of BHO to be honest and forthcoming on this issue. Right on his own website we, if we’ve paid attention, have seen a steady evolution and tweaking and morphing of the story.

    If you’re telling the truth to begin with, the story will never need to change.

    Is it possible that he is some sort of Manchurian Candidate? Yes, it’s possible. Is it likely? I don’t think so.

    This reminds me of Aye Chi’s angry response that I should never accuse him of dogmatic assertions right after he had just made a string of them without Fact 1 to back them up. He insisted he always has a fact to back up his assertions. Aye Chi, it’s simply arrogant for you to expect me to accept your assertions are fact-based without those facts being presented.

    If you’re honest, and I think that you are, you’ll admit that I virtually always have a quote or link or both when I make any sort of post here.

    Sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I’m posting on “on the fly” and don’t take the time needed to link the sources. Quite frankly, sometimes I just get tired of linking things. Sometimes I post from work where I am away from the bulk of my resource materials and, often, limited on time.

    The lack of sourcing doesn’t always negate the value of the post however.

    In fact, I don’t see a lot of quotes, or facts, or links at all in your posts Dave but perhaps you’re holding the rest of us to another standard, eh? You’ll notice however that I have never attempted to challenge your lack of sourcing.

    I addressed the rest of your post in the other thread because that is where it is relevant. You’ll find the link in #20 above.

    I enjoy debating, discussing, and jousting with you on the issues Dave, but here lately your posts have taken on a rather rough, grating, and at times personal edge that I find distasteful.

    Hopefully we can return to a somewhat civilized debate now that we both have things off our chests.

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  22. CentFla says: 22

    I virtually always have a quote or link or both when I make any sort of post here.

    I wonder if I could dig five or six times when… err, nevermid.

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  23. Dave Noble says: 23

    Aye Chi,

    Since I addressed you in my comments to Mata, it is totally appropriate that you respond.

    I want to be civil as much as you do. Kindly look back to your post on the global warming thread. You have to admit that if anyone else did that you would rightly ask them for support for their assertions.

    Note that I have no problem with an edge to the discussion. Even under the Marquis de Queesnbury rules, you are still punching the other individual in the ring. Or, as you put it ,”jousting.”

    There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, personal here. The fact is I simply do not know you. You may be a fine human being who is kind and fair to others in your personal life. I only know you by what you say here and even then I only know what you say. That is all I can see and respond to. Such are the limits of a blog.

    Re: Michelle Obama’s comments:

    “Our souls are broken in this nation”
    If you are black, I think you have some idea of what she is talking about. If you are not, as I am not, you should not judge her from the perspective of a white person. You need to be an agnostic regarding the basis of her emotions. When she was a child, Dr. King, a proponent of nonviolent change, was shot in cold blood. Just before she was born John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy, two political leaders who supported civil rights were assassinated. The Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965, the year after she was born. If you think that is inconsequential and she should just get over it, I suggest you think again.

    “They can’t look to any one individual, whether it’s Barack or it’s the next new hope that’s going to appear to be that savior.”
    Reread this statement, and tell me again why it is objectionable. I would think this is exactly what you would want her to say. Barrack Obama is not the savior, he is not the messiah, he is a candidate for the Presidential election whom the American people will either elect or not. I will vote for him, but even if he is elected, I do not expect him to deliver us from evil. I expect him to be a competent leader who chooses his advisers well and looks for the best solution to our problems.

    Be well.

    ReplyReply
  24. Uddercha0s says: 24

    I wonder if I could dig five or six times when… err, nevermid.

    STFU I would write more but frankly you’re not worth the effort.

    ReplyReply
  25. DW 5000 says: 25

    I wonder if I could dig five or six times when… err, nevermid.

    STFU I would write more but frankly you’re not worth the effort.

    Heh. Uddercha0s: pwned.

    ReplyReply
  26. DW 5000 says: 26

    Now if BHO has converted away then how is he going to be viewed by the Muslim world? I would say that would be an important thing to consider. Not only is there the overall safety issue but, considering what our world is facing right now, we need to be adult enough to consider if international relations will suffer as a result of the religious issue.

    1. He’s a krazee Christian! vs. He’s actually a Muslim!
    2. His name makes us feel weird! vs. His name is really “Barry,” which isn’t weird, and that’s the problem!
    3. He’s being endorsed by Hamas! vs. Muslims hate him because he left Islam! (To twist the argument into a mobius strip, see #1 above.)

    There’s no actual debate coming from the Right these days. There’s just a shotgun blast of memelets–many of which directly contradict one another–aimed at Obama, hoping that one will penetrate.

    This is that Obama Derangement Syndrome looks like.

    ReplyReply
  27. MataHarley says: 27

    1. He’s a krazee Christian! vs. He’s actually a Muslim!
    2. His name makes us feel weird! vs. His name is really “Barry,” which isn’t weird, and that’s the problem!
    3. He’s being endorsed by Hamas! vs. Muslims hate him because he left Islam! (To twist the argument into a mobius strip, see #1 above.)

    There’s no actual debate coming from the Right these days.

    But of course… how could I have missed it? Surely the above is representative of cogent and thoughful debate by adults over how Zawahiri and crew view apostate Muslims?

    “8: What is the usefulness of Jihad combat actions against the apostate Arab regimes, which usually target the regimes’ lackeys without severing the heads? And how do you evaluate the results of these actions, especially in Algeria, Egypt and the country of the two Sanctuaries?”

    Eighth: I talked before about the Jihadi actions in Egypt and the Arabian Peninsula, and I referred to our practical discretion at this stage, but I would like to add here three notes:

    1) The clash with the corrupt regimes must occur sooner or later if we want to set up the Muslim state and liberate the lands of Islam.

    2) The overall position is open to adjustment from one territory to another. So for example, in Algeria the brothers pair targeting of Jewish and Western interests with waging a guerilla war against the hireling government, because their circumstances make it possible for them to do that.

    3) Severing the heads isn’t the objective: rather, the objective is to remove the corrupt, apostate regime and set up the Islamic government. And the means of change differ from one territory to another.

    mmmmm, yeah. Unlike “jack Mormons”, apostate Arabs have a tough time being welcomed back into the fold sans their heads and credibility…. Depending, of course, upon which jihadists get to them first.

    BHO will be no better that the prior “great Satans”. In fact, they may detest him even more.

    But shhhhh…. don’t let the human gnats a’swarming get a whiff this may be viable debate, based on the jihadists’ own words.

    BTW, apologies to all… my “edge” is on a roll. Perhaps I should just log off for awhile…

    ReplyReply
  28. Dave Noble says: 28

    Buzz,

    So I have made assumptions about you without knowing much about you. Fair enough. Annoying, isn’t it? You have never exchanged responses with me before and you call me a smug elitist because I support Barrack Obama. They call that prejudice, the act of making unwarranted judgments about someone based on scant evidence. If a poor person with a high school education supports Barrack Obama are they elitist? Are all Obama supporters elitists?

    Maybe I don’t know you. So let’s try a test.

    Are Americans who oppose the war unpatriotic?

    Because someone is a Democrat are they likely to be anti-American?

    Are Obama supporters Marxists?

    Is Obama a Marxist?

    Is Obama unpatriotic?

    If I have you wrong, my friend, I apologize.

    Re: Insults. This site is filthy with them. I am very careful with my tone. I have never called anyone a racist. I suggested to Aye Chi that assuming that one black man speaks for black people is racist. That does not mean Aye Chi is racist. Here’s an example – the Don Imus comment that got him thrown off the air was a racist comment, as was an earlier comment in which he referred to Gwen Ifill as a cleaning lady. That’s like referring to a black man as a shoeshine boy. Those remarks are patently racist. However, I personally like Don Imus and I do not believe he is a racist. Though a smart man, he just doesn’t always think before he opens his mouth.

    I challenge you to find one of my posts in which I even used the word paranoid. I don’t believe I ever have. If I am wrong I will stand corrected.

    Aye Chi and I have enjoyed some reasoned debate as well as other exchanges that he aptly calls “jousts.” The Rubber Man was part of the latter.

    ReplyReply
  29. Dave Noble says: 29

    Mata,

    The issue isn’t how Obama will be viewed by the jihadists. They are beyond the reach of reason. The issue is whether he will be a welcome face to the other 1.3 billion Muslims in the world.

    ReplyReply
  30. Buzz says: 30

    So I have made assumptions about you without knowing much about you. Fair enough. Annoying, isn’t it? You have never exchanged responses with me before and you call me a smug elitist because I support Barrack Obama. They call that prejudice, the act of making unwarranted judgments about someone based on scant evidence. If a poor person with a high school education supports Barrack Obama are they elitist? Are all Obama supporters elitists?

    Go back and read why I called you an elitist. Here’s a hint, it wasn’t for support of Barack Hussein Obama.

    Are Americans who oppose the war unpatriotic?

    Some of them are.

    Because someone is a Democrat are they likely to be anti-American?

    Some of them are.

    Are Obama supporters Marxists?

    Some of them definitely are. They’re not hanging Che’ posters in his campaign offices because they think he looks nice.

    Is Obama a Marxist?

    Yes he is.

    Is Obama unpatriotic?

    His wife is. His pastor is. I think Obama wants to consider himself a citizen of the world first. And there’s a quote by Teddy Roosevelt about people like that. He pays lip service to patriotism.

    Re: Insults. This site is filthy with them. I am very careful with my tone.

    Yes you are very good at trying to make your insults come off as non-insulting as possible so when someone calls you on your shit you can claim a high ground.

    I challenge you to find one of my posts in which I even used the word paranoid. I don’t believe I ever have. If I am wrong I will stand corrected.

    Dave Noble
    7 Aye Chi, your disingenousness is breathtaking. Whoever called Richard Nixon, “Milhouse”? BTW, does Ronald Reagan have a middle name? What is it? Middle names are, after all, very important in your world. Answer in the real world? It doesn’t matter a hill of beans. Except to paranoids and racists.

    One should learn to read their own words before opening their mouth, or using cntl+f. You believe everyone taking an interest in the middle name is either paranoid or racist. You have just accused everyone who has done so. That’s an insult.

    ReplyReply
  31. Scott Malensek says: 31

    Buzz, I agree word for word mon ami
    :-)

    ReplyReply
  32. Dave Noble claims this site is “filthy” with insults. Dave is a Dem, so you have to ask him what his definition of an insult is. It has become apparent that he thinks it’s an insult to disagree with him.

    Sort of like Obama. Typical elitism.

    And speaking of middle names…. Why did everyone call Romney by his middle name?

    ReplyReply
  33. Dave Noble says: 33

    Buzz,

    So, I didn’t have you wrong.

    Obama is a Marxist? I support his policies, e.g., nationalized healthcare. That would then make me a Marxist. Of course, that would also mean that virtually every First World country is Marxist.
    Now I know where we stand.

    I said I’d stand corrected if I was wrong. But you couldn’t resist the chickenshit temptation to gloat. I stand by my statement that the only people that would find the mere fact that Barrack Obama’s middle name is Hussein a problem are either paranoid or racist. You don’t fall into that category, do you?

    There are racists and paranoids in the American population. And politicians try to appeal to them. And saying that doesn’t make someone an elitist. It makes them an objective observer of American politics.

    I’m not standing on Mount Olympus, buddy. I just find that the regular use of labels and insults gets in the way of having a debate based on facts and logic. If that makes me an elitist, so be it.

    Anytime you want to actually have a debate, Buzz, I’ll be right here.

    Consider your shit called. That goes for you too, Scott. (Cute emoticon, mon ami)

    ReplyReply
  34. Dave Noble says: 34

    Mike,

    Dude, I don’t even know what Romney’s middle name is. Honestly.

    Racist bitch – I think that would be an insult. Dimwhit – yeah that, too. Filthadelphia Steve – probably. At least racist, elitist and Marxist are susceptible to definition and discussion.

    ReplyReply
  35. Aye Chihuahua says: 35

    I suggested to Aye Chi that assuming that one black man speaks for black people is racist.

    Ummm…

    It wasn’t me who made the assumption that Lt Col West was speaking for all black people.

    That was you.

    ReplyReply
  36. Buzz says: 36

    I support his policies, e.g., nationalized healthcare

    Certainly makes you a socialist. Probably not a far cry from marxism. Sorry I grew up, I no longer need or want mommy and daddy to take care of me like you do.

    I stand by my statement that the only people that would find the mere fact that Barrack Obama’s middle name is Hussein a problem are either paranoid or racist. You don’t fall into that category, do you?

    I don’t find it a problem. However elitists like you do. So you are either paranoid or a racist. Otherwise you wouldn’t be so afraid of having people say it. You consider the american people stupid. You fear that they are racist and won’t vote for your empty-suited messiah if they hear Hussein too much.

    If you don’t think it is a problem why are you so against people using it? If the media didn’t think it was a problem why are they so against using it?

    Dude, I don’t even know what Romney’s middle name is. Honestly

    Its Mitt, duh. You sure you went to college? Because I didn’t know that and was able to figure it out immediately based on the comment.

    You can insult without calling people names. Something you are able to do. I just find the direct approach much simpler, otherwise it might confuse someone that can’t figure out a joke like Mitt Romney’s middle name, or remember what they have said in a previous post and didn’t take the time to look.

    Idiotic Socialist.

    ReplyReply
  37. Dave Noble:

    You don’t know what Romney’s middle name is?

    I’ll give you a hint: It’s what Catchers in baseball put on one hand to help them catch the ball.

    ReplyReply
  38. Dave Noble says: 38

    Buzz,

    I need neither a mommy nor a daddy. I have primary and secondary health insurance because I served my country and now I’m serving my state. It’s the other 48 million Americans I care about. Guess that makes me a socialist.

    You just can’t resist the insults can you? They’re your substitute for rational discussion.
    Hey, man, that’s cool. You have to play what you got.

    But once again, my friend, anytime you want to have a debate like big boys, instead of having a sixth grade scorn fight, I’m right here.

    Oh, and Mike, when you want to talk about something more significant and interesting than middle names, I’m here for you too. Cat-cher’s Mitt. I get it.

    ReplyReply
  39. Buzz says: 39

    It’s the other 48 million Americans I care about.

    Now its 48 million huh? How many of them can actually afford insurance but choose not to get it? Explain to me how putting the DMV and the Social Security administration in charge of health insurance is a good thing?

    I’m all for Americans without insurance being able to receive medical treatment. Good thing that they are able to do that. And hell I’m even fine with them getting health insurance too. The thing is that to do that should not require the nationalization of an entire industry.

    Btw, your health insurance given to you by your service is apparently just absolutely horrible according to your ideological brethren. Well at least it is when they wanted to make accusations about Bush not supporting our veterans. Other times its just great proof of government run healthcare.

    Guess that makes me a socialist.

    It does. You really don’t have any concept of what words mean do you?

    But once again, my friend, anytime you want to have a debate like big boys, instead of having a sixth grade scorn fight, I’m right here.

    From the man constantly throwing out insults. I call you names because its direct, and very obvious that any attempts at nuanced jabs would go over your head at the flight altitude of a 747.

    ReplyReply
  40. Dave Noble says: 40

    Buzz,

    You’re confused. As a military retiree, I am able to go to private doctors, just like any other civilian with private insurance. It’s the injured vets who are thrown on the not always tender mercies of the Veteran’s Administration. If you’re running the war on a credit card, you try to cut your costs on the backend when the damaged troops come home.

    We can discuss the healthcare system shortly.

    And hey, Sugar Ray, why don’t you try those “nuanced” jabs and stop playing cute. Stop telling me what you have and bring it. You know what would be really direct? Facts and logic.

    ReplyReply
  41. Buzz says: 41

    You’re confused. As a military retiree, I am able to go to private doctors, just like any other civilian with private insurance.

    Except after you nationalize the Health Insurance industry like you want, private doctors will cease to exist. Oh sure you can try to twist around and claim that there are still private doctors out there, but their only employer would be the state.

    Now go run along and kiss your messiah’s feet, and talk about how you support his ideas. You know, before he changes them again.

    ReplyReply
  42. Dave Noble says: 42

    He’s not my messiah, he’s the candidate, and if we’re lucky he’ll be our President.

    I also note that you didn’t attempt to defend the Veterans’ Administration.

    Now re: Nationalized healthcare. (Disclosure: the majority of this is copied from a previous post I made on this site.)

    I said “Guess that makes me a socialist.” At least on that issue.

    Currently, doctors in America effectively are employees of the health insurance companies. Your employer is the entity that pays you. For the vast majority of doctors (Beverly Hills plastic surgeons are a possible exception that comes to mind), that is the insurance companies.
    There is little dispute that we have the best healthcare system in the
    world, if you can afford it. But that’s like saying Sudan has
    excellent national nutrition, because they eat gourmet meals in the
    Presidential palace. I make no suggestion of moral equivalency between
    the United States and Sudan here, so put down that club. My analogy is logical, not moral.
    A more reasonable way to evaluate the quality of a country’s healthcare system is to look at the quality of healthcare provided to the average citizen.

    A comparison of our healthcare system with the rest of
    the First World starts with a prima facie analysis and goes on from
    there. We are the only First World nation I know of without nationalized healthcare.
    Does it seem plausible on its face that we’re the only ones who have it right and everyone else has it wrong?

    If something so massive and important was such a disaster in Canada or Great Britain, don’t you think the electorate there would do something about it? Remember, we’re talking about democracies here. As much as the term socialism is conflated with totalitarian communism, like that of the former Soviet Union, high levels of socialism exist in many of the world’s non-American democracies.

    Now let’s look at two core/elemental metrics of the quality of a nation’s healthcare system:
    Infant Mortality (IM) and Longevity

    IM (Source: CIA statistics -ttps://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html)

    The US has the 180th highest IM rate of the countries monitored. Guess who is 181? South Korea. Guess who is 182? Cuba. A newborn baby stands a better chance of living in Cuba than it does in the US.

    Which countries have lower IMs than the US? (Same source as above)

    Canada

    United Kingdom

    Germany

    Norway

    France

    Sweden

    All have nationalized healthcare.

    Longevity (M/F)
    (Source: World Health Organization
    /http://www.who.int/whosis/database/life_tables/life_tables.cfm)

    US – 75/80

    UK – 77/81

    Canada – 78/83

    People in the UK and Canada live longer than Americans, despite their purportedly abysmal healthcare systems.

    ReplyReply
  43. Buzz says: 43

    I have no reason to defend the VA.

    The US has the 180th highest IM rate of the countries monitored. Guess who is 181? South Korea. Guess who is 182? Cuba. A newborn baby stands a better chance of living in Cuba than it does in the US.

    Congratulations, you really are an idiot. I think this has even been discussed here among other places.

    First you are actually believing Cuba’s numbers. You’re a moron. Second the comparison of infant mortality in the US in comparison to the rest of the world is an apples to oranges comparison. Most of the world applies the WHO formula for infant mortality. That involves babies being born under a certain weight are not counted for infant mortality if that baby dies. Even if the baby is alive at birth. It was underweight so it doesn’t count. The US doesn’t apply that standard. If the infant is born alive and its under the thresh-hold weight and dies it gets counted. Not only will it be counted, we probably spent a lot of time and money trying to make sure it doesn’t become a statistic for infant mortality numbers. US, numbers are over-inflated when compared to the rest of the world.

    All those countries also have worse survival rates for cancer patients. They also suffer from waiting lists for surgeries. Among their other problems. I for one am not willing to trade the problems with the american healthcare industry for the problems these socialized systems have.

    Congratulations not only are you a moron for following an empty-suit, you’re a moron for believing Michael Moore propaganda.

    ReplyReply
  44. Dave Noble says: 44

    Buzz,

    Well, you do win the prize for how many times you can use the word “moron” in one post. If you keep up like this, pretty soon your whole post will just be “moron” repeated over and over again.

    Now stop sputtering “moron” for a moment, take a deep breath and look at my post again. Do you see a cite to Michael Moore anywhere? Now look at my IM statistics. They come from the CIA Factbook, not the WHO. The longevity statistics come from the WHO. Do you doubt those statistics?

    Having done that, please provide substantiation/source for your description of how the WHO calculates IM stats and how other countries report them. Further, “most of the world” is not precise enough. Let’s leave Cuba out for the sake of argument. Can you substantiate that Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, Norway, France and Sweden all report IM as you describe?

    The US has wait lists for surgery. Do you have statistics that show how they compare to countries with nationalized healthcare?

    Finally, why do you think we are the only First World country that doesn’t have a nationalized healthcare system? I’m curious.

    BTW, it doesn’t matter what healthcare system Buzz wants to live under.
    What matters is the facts.

    ReplyReply
  45. At Comment #38 Dave Noble said:

    “Oh, and Mike, when you want to talk about something more significant and interesting than middle names, I’m here for you too. Cat-cher’s Mitt. I get it.”

    So why is it that you keep bringing the subject up?

    Would you like me to go back through and count the number of times you have referenced Obama’s middle name?

    Comments #5, #7, #12, #16.

    Are you going to adopt the style typical of Obama cultists and add “Hussein” to your screen name now?

    As for your contention in comment #28 “I challenge you to find one of my posts in which I even used the word paranoid. I don’t believe I ever have.” I believe you have been corrected on that score multiple times.

    Did you ever apologize for making such a slur towards readers and commenters while at the same time wailing about how “filthy” with insults this site is?

    Do you need a time out Dave?

    Man up!

    ReplyReply
  46. MataHarley says: 46

    Dave Noble

    INRE your comment:

    Finally, why do you think we are the only First World country that doesn’t have a nationalized healthcare system? I’m curious.

    I’m going to respond, but let’s move this section away from the “race card” thread, and start it under the more current post from Curt on the Canada’s Socialist Healthcare thread instead. It’s more relevant, and easier to keep the thread theme in place. Okay?

    ReplyReply
  47. Dave Noble says: 47

    Buzz,

    How about responding to Comment 44 – I thought that was where we were at in this discussion.
    We were talking about national healthcare. The subject changed. Did you take a short nap?

    That’s some dandy tap-dancing – Ignore the post right above me that I’m not ready to respond to – Let’s talk about middle names and insults again

    You really are afraid to have a meaningful debate.

    ReplyReply
  48. Dave Noble says: 48

    Excellent suggestion, Mata.

    ReplyReply
  49. Still waiting for Dave Hussein Nobel’s apology for the “filthy” site insults and “paranoid, racist” comments…..

    Oh well… I guess if you live in Libby Land, you are exempt from the same standards you try and impose on the rest of us.

    ReplyReply
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