MOVE was a difficult group to cover. They were so strange, and so prone to instant violence that there were few analogies. That is why I said that analogies to Waco were very thin. Because the group inWaco did not have loadspeakers attached to the sides of their house, blaring speeches and music at the loudest possible volume, day and night. And, if anyone approached even asking to please turn it down, they were turned away with screams and shouts, and the MOVE members would retreat into the house and barricade the doors.

I cannot come up with any analogies to other groups because even the violent ones of any persuasion: KKK, Black Panthers, The Breed Motorcycle Gang (spent a fun summer at the shore with them) would leave you alone if you left them alone. MOVE sought out confrontations with everyone, then launched into violence whether you reacted positively or negatively. They essentially wanted war with everyone, and chose the middle of the city to do it.

Have a nice weekend.

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Steve,

Thank you again for the insight on this. I do not know who William Kunstler is but will have to research. I remember the fires as it was played out in different ways by various media outlets. By that time, I began openly questioning media coverage.

I do not know why comments are being caught in moderation. I am signed in fully and mine are also being caught, including this one. Several comments a day are caught up in the filters.

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ChrisG
No. At that time the police in Philadelphia carried .38′s (I had a few friends on the force). The 10,000 assertion is absurd

All of the MOVE members died in the Osage avenu fire, except for Birdie and one woman. She was not convicted of anything (I believe she was not at Osage and not part of any siege), and has appeared in the news sporatically trying to gain sympathy. She is pretty much ignored by everyone (Right, Left, Middle) and mostly I read about her in the “Whatever became of…” articles that the papers use as filler every few years.

I never read anything about salmonella or other food poisoning of any of them. And it is likely I would have since had one of them been taken to the hospital I’m sure we would have heard the commotion they would certainly have created ther with whatever happened.

Another item that should make your Conservative heart glow
William Kunstler came to Philadelphia to try to mediate during the first siege (32nd Street). And the MOVE member even drove HIM away. He left town hating and denouncing them! That’s how bad they were.

There is no MOVE movement left any more, or if there is, it has gone so far underground.out of the city that no one notices. My opinion is that they are gone. They were too alienating to anyone, of any political stripe. It went beyond any ideology (as you would expect, MOVE’s dogma was pretty much an incoherent babble, to the extent it existed at all.)

bbartlog
“With more patience and less escalation both Waco and the second MOVE confrontation could probably have been wound down without further loss of life, but to do that someone would have had to tell the news organizations ‘yeah, we’re just going to stand down and do nothing for a couple weeks (or months), we’ll arrest them when they get tired of sitting around and come out.’”

Not to be too pessimistic, but I am not sure that any method could have prevented bloodshed at Osage Avenue. MOVE was just too violent.

The bungling I spoke of centerd on the fact that while the MOVE house on 32nd streete (first time) was a single house, the one on Osage (2nd) was a row house. That meant that there wer houses touching on both sides. The Philadelphia police launched the raid to empty the house (in response to numerous neighbors’ complaints) by first evacuating everyone in the other houses on the block, then trying to go inside (it was early morning).

They were spotted by the MOVE members (which was unusual since they tended to sleep until Noon) and the siege began.

The MOVE members had built a “bunker” on the roof (scrap lumber, railroad ties, …) and police were concerned that they might be shot at from the roof (another reasonable assumption, considering the first confrontation). The police commissioner (Gregory Samborne) on site ordered a police helicopter to drop a small explosive device on the “bunker” to get rid of it so the police could approach over the roof’s.

Unfortunately, instead of packing the device with industrial explosives, as was requested, the bomb preparers used C4! The explosion not only blew up the bunker (actually it missed and the bunker was only damaged, not destroyed), but it set fire to the house and the one next door.

Then, the police stood there for about two hours and watched the house burn. There were no fire trucks on site and none were even called (there were none includedin the original police plan either).

When the Police Commissioner (Gregory) testified afterward at the inquiry and was asked why he did not at least call out fire engines answered, “[I'm police.] It’s not my job” (Honest!). So he just stood there, on site, at his command post and watched it burn and spread to other houses for a couple of hours.

By the time the Fire Commissioner saw the houses burining (on the TV news) and ordered out the fire engines, it was too late and half the block was burning. It jumped the streets and burned both sides of Osaga and parts of two other blocks.

It does not mitigate the violence of MOVE, but Gregory Samborne was also part of the botched results.

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were many of their members found to have salmonella, rabies, ecoli, or tuberculosis type diseases common with uncooked food and filthy surroundings

Thing is, if only one group of people lives like this they can (mostly) free ride on the better hygiene of their neighbors. Salmonella in the food supply is rare, tuberculosis hasn’t been endemic in the US in years, rabies is more of a rural issue, and there are only a few strains of ecoli that can really make you sick (and those too are rare in the food supply). Of course that would quickly change if we all decided to live like MOVE did.

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The MOVE standoff was bungled, but it was a hard situation to deal with. Always easy in hindsight to spot the mistakes (though I like to think I wouldn’t have been fool enough to firebomb the place). Sometimes I wonder to what extent media attention drives politicians to both try to fix things as quickly as possible. With more patience and less escalation both Waco and the second MOVE confrontation could probably have been wound down without further loss of life, but to do that someone would have had to tell the news organizations ‘yeah, we’re just going to stand down and do nothing for a couple weeks (or months), we’ll arrest them when they get tired of sitting around and come out.’
As for Mumia, I think anyone who reviews the case with an open mind will conclude that Mumia is guilty. Glad to see that you’ve taken it on yourself to rebut the flood of nonsense, though I’m afraid your words will be wasted on anyone who seriously believes Mumia is innocent.

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Steve,

That was a refreshing, cohearant, and insightful post I have not seen you make in a while. I grew up near Detroit and only saw the snippets of the fire on TV with no investigative reports on who, or what, MOVE was (or still is? Do they still exist?).

Question though, considering they ate raw food, and along with the rodent population they attracted, were many of their members found to have salmonella, rabies, ecoli, or tuberculosis type diseases common with uncooked food and filthy surroundings? Did others in the area contract such diseases (though obviously not samonella)? The health and safety impacts alone to the community from piles of garbage and infestations, never mind the security concerns, must have been dramatic. I was really just wondering as I have never researched this group. From the sounds of it, I would feel the need for another shower after researching them.

As it stands, I hope the cult left the area and dispanded. But like ants, these groups in various incarnations seem to always return.

Looking at the quotes from the book above, the first thing I saw was the alledged “10,000 rounds” fired by police in 1978. Most police carried 38 Special or 357 revolvers (6 rounds per load) or shotguns (most holding 6 rounds). Most police, though I do not know about Philly’s departments, did not carry semi-autos (10-17 rounds average) until the mid 80s-90s. Some departments still use revolvers as they malfunction and cost less.

I state the above as 10,000 police rounds would be hours and hours of continuous shooting, even by SWAT teams (if any were available in 1978). Even with a 9mm Glock or Berretta (avg 15 rounds/mag), 10,000 rounds is 667 magazine reloads! With revolvers and shotguns, it is 1,667 reloads! So the numbers do not add up. For police to use THAT many rounds at one building in a city would be insane. Even firefights with machine guns do not use that much ammunition. Bullet travel from overpenetrations would create legal havoc as people in the surrounding area filed damage or injury/death claims. It may also exceed what some departments would store for extra ammunition per year (again, I do not know how much ammunition a police department keeps on-hand).

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Re: “All liberals hate America”

Hey moderator(s). When I post a comment like “All Conservatives….” you come down on me like a ton of bricks. When the situation is reversed, do the same rules apply?

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Dude, step away from the pipe…

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of course MuMu-JaJa pulled the trigger. Who sports that rag and doesn’t squander-swine? O’Conner is liberal-filth. The first question; Is MuMu-JaJa Guilty or Innocent? Guilty! The last question; Was MuMu-JaJa Right or Wrong? You have your answer. We over at http://officerdownofficerdown.blogspot.com/ have our own.

Pigs. Liberals. Conservatives. Obama. McCain. All filth. All in service to one another; “you oppose me, and I’ll oppose you”. Different dingleberries from the same branch.

More Swine-Worshipping, please!

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All liberals hate America, hate the police, and hate the military, so why would anyone read, much less buy, one of their books? All of the criminals should have been executed within 90 days. The police and military are going to have to adopt the same tactics (based on the idiots on the SCOTUS) and take no prisoners.

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