CentFla, I derive no satisfaction from innocent people being killed. My points were these:

-The Democrats, when they used the phrase “we need to get our troops out of a bloody civil war” were invariably referring to the the Sunni/Shia conflict (and sometimes the Kurd/Arab Sunni conflict). What’s is happening right now is actually much more like a Civil war, whereas what existed before was not, it was complex sectarian violence. If you take Obama’s llatest characterization of things, which seems to be borne out of ignorance and can be reduced to “see they are still fighting, we can never control them”, then yes it’s a failure. I believe he is profoundly wrong, and Iraq is getting better and better. It’s not a straight line, since there has been a long truce and now there is a battle. But pointing to what’s going on and claiming “same old same old” is disingenuous or misinformed.

-The Civil War that’s going on right now is the Government, which obviously has some relationship with Iran but is more on the side of law and order vs. another group that is clearly supported by Iran and is very destabilizing to law and order. It’s the last uncontrollable target in Iraq, and if and when it’s overpowered, Iraq will be peaceful barring direct aggression by Iran or dramatic and quick withdrawal of US troops.

-The war is progressing as I expected in the sense of exposing the weak points, in strategy and personnel of the Iraqi Army. Unlike the caricatures painted in the mainstream media, things are going well, although perhaps not as well as in Maliki’s most optimistic scenario.

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By the way, Chet.
No matter what else I believe regarding your opinoins, thank you for your service.

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Still waiting for you to explain your attack, Chet.

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)   I have.   I’ve served my country, was disabled in doing so, and received those recognitions normally provided to those that led or lead by example.   Upon returning I spent the next 30 plus years serving those that served our country, to include their spouses, children, and/or widows.

"For him who has bourne the battle. . . ."

Oh, and if I were able, I would do it all over again.   And you John Ryan?

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Chet when are YOU personally going to step up and do what you think needs to be done instead of just shooting your mouth off

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Re: "Please explain how Iraq threatened–or threatens now–my freedom."

Because the images of Americans torturing Muslims in the confines of Abu Graibe are being shown to Muslim Children in Saudi sponsored schools throughout the Islamic world:  Raising a new generation who will always associate a "Crusader" mentality with Americans invading, occupying and torturing Muslims on behalf of a Fundamentalist Christian President.

And all the FoxNews alibis beamed at American audiences will do nothing to ameliorate it.

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And therein lies the weak link in your chain.   One dimensional thinking.

Please explain how Iraq threatened–or threatens now–my freedom.

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Re: "If we leave before the job is done, we will have Basra over whole country."
Please define "the job is done".
Once it was "find the WMD’s"
Then it was "build a shining light of democracy across the Middle East"

What is it now?  Excatly.  Not in broad generalizations.  And how many years (decades?) and lives and treasure are you willing to spend in order to get it?  (And if you answer is the stock "whatever it takes", then you are obviously willing to bankrupt our nation for your cause, which meets my definitin of a dangerous fanatic, so I would appreciate an exact number.

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Re: "And to fight over what quabble that Rumsfeld and Powell now is behind us."

But the cost isn’t.  And Conservatives alwys deny accountability by "putting it in the past".  On a totally different different topic, Bill clinton’s affair with Monica Lewinsky is "in the past".  Has even one Conservative let that go?  No!

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Re: "my post was sarcasm."
That’s cool.  I actually do appreciate humor once in a while. We shouldn’t always take ourselves so seriously. 

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Re: "As always, Steve and Doug completely hijack a thread and bastardize it with their bias and complete disdain for their political opponents"

How did I hijack this thread?  Conservatives view of the civil war in Iraq consists of two views:
1. If violence is increasing, it is a sign that the US should stay ther forever.
2. If violence is decreasing, it is a sign the athe US should stay there forever.

One way or another, Conservatives are 100% wedded to the US occupying Iraq forever.  My point is that, as long as the US is an occuping force in Iraq, the civil war will last forever as well:  Because the US is training, equiping and paying all sides in this civil war, and taking casulties and intervening when one side or another starts to win too much (except for the central Iraqi government, which does not exist outside of theGreen Zone).

I was disagreeing with option 1 above, which was the theme of this thread.

And, I never made any claims that the government of Saddam Hussein had ZERO contacts with alQaeda, ever.  Just that he had nothing to do with the September 11 attacks, which about 40+% of Republicans still insist.

I also never claimed ther were ZERO foreign fighters in iraq.  I jsut cited Pentago studies that put their composition fo the "insurgency" at less than 10%.

The evidence is thatIraqis are fighting a civil war that began shortly afte the Iraqi army disbanded (both by decree and by individual action) in 2003 and the Iraqi army weapons depots were left unguarded for months.  meanwhile the Bush Administration pretended for more than a year that nothign was happening and did nothing to stop the war when ther was even a slight chance of preventing it.  And for all those deaths and destruction since then, I hold Geroge W. Bush accountable:  Although Conservatives give him a free pass because in the federal government there was at least one employee who was a holdover from Bill Clinton.

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Re: "Assisting the Iraqi people in achieving/obtaing their freedom)s),"

In the 2000 elections, George w. Bush sneered at "Nation Building".  Since he has obviously changed his mind, so have all conservatives.  That is why I assert that Conservatives take most (though not 100%) of their mental outlook from George W. Bush.  However if President Bush gets his (effective) thrid term through John McCain, then we will expect that transformation to be complete.

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Re: "It’s coming to a point in time when and where there are those among us, the chaff in the wheat if you will, that needs be threshed from the grain.   And in my minds eye, the sooner the better.   There are many in our society that need to be made examples of, Pelosi, Mutha, Reid, Kennedy, and some that post here come to mind."

After separation, the chaff is usually physically destroyed.  Exactly what kind of "examples" are you proposing to make of thse people?  Are you suggesting something along the lines of Conservative hero Ann Coulter’s past suggestions?  Or are you too coy to be specific, and accountable?

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And therein lies the weak link in your chain.   One dimensional thinking.

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Chet:

The weak link in your chain is equating invading Iraq with "protecting America" and fighting for the "freedoms…for this country."

How has the war in Iraq ever been about protecting America?  Our country was never threatened by Iraq.

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