I think reasoning with Doug would be like trying to convince a Christian that evolution took place. You could spend hours writing or reading about about the topic, and if it disproves them, then they’ll just run back to the safety of wherever they are stiring up their kool aid. Overall, what he said on comment number three doesn’t prove the polls he favors as correct or the ones he doesn’t as incorrect.

Like what MataHarley said, noone who wants to find concrete evidence when making decisions or conducting research uses polls. Obviously, looking at how anyone could use them to advance their opinion, they have great reasons to ignore polls.

I think the only polls that ever matter are the ones at are held on election days.

In the end, noone knows what Iraqis think of Americans. Sure, looking at the news and all the bombings is enough to make someone think that they want death to America, especially their troopers. It really is a sickening thing to watch, but to claim that every Iraqi is partly responsible because some unreliable poll says that more than half of them approve of the attacks would be plain idiocy at the utmost extremes.

What many people fail to realize, is that attacks on Coalition troops are less than the attacks on civilians. If the poll that says Iraqis support our attackers is accurate, then why are the attackers slaughtering their own supporters? More over, why are the attackers threatening to kill the Iraqis if they help us in any way whatsoever unless the they are willing to help us?

Just consider this, whatever the poll results from ABC, or BBC say, the evidence against those results are just superfluous.

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If you’re goign to base your military strategic positions on any elected official’s “fallen principles”, Doug… regardless of party affiliation – then all I can say is “good luck”. For any you hold up on a political pedestal, there’s ample dirty dealings and narcissisic ambitions to be slung back in your face. Let’s face it. You can whine about an inept and corrupt Iraq Parliament all you want. But our own Congress can’t stand on much higher moral ground themselves.

I fear you concentrate solely on specific details, sound byte phrases, and single battle results to formulate your military strategy opinions, – ignoring the wider picture of an enemy that deals behind the scenes with the of ME govts and elemets. The global Islamic jihad movement plants a base of operation in any country that gives them a modicum of welcome. or turns a blind eye. They will sign many a truce in order to regroup, restrategize, and break that truce at will. Tribal leaders/Pakistani Taliban/AQ/Pakistani military – their a history rich with just such failed agreements.

Cheney is correct that neither our CIC, nor the Iraq President, VPs and Parliament should be deciding the path to their national security based on poll results. He was no doubt smiling at the incredible stupidity of the question, suggestings that American poll results dictate the Pentagon and CIC. When I’m not at the end of my wits on a news day, and busy screaming at the screen at such a display of media idiocy, I smile, too.

The single important fact that cannot be ignored today, INRE our involvement with Iraq, is simple, and irrefutable. There is an Arab democracy struggling to make it thru their infant years. They are battling an enemy comprised of internal and foreign dissidents, bent on overthrowing what the majority of citizens voted in for their future.

And that country’s elected officials are requesting help from the US and coalition. Period. End of story.

You can debate the pros and cons of liberating Iraq all day long, and neither side will acquiesce. But know this. History will be written, and rewritten, based upon Iraq’s progress as a new democracy in the region. If they make it, become an ally in intel and friend of the western world for trade and relations… (the defiinition of “success” that eludes so many of you anti-free-Iraq types)… then history will judge the Iraq liberation as the right move.

However, if you’re determined for Iraq to fail, you clamor for the new CIC to ignore their requests for aid, withdraw and leave them to fend for themselves while you sit back in your Lazy-boy and cross your fingers. And why? Merely to gain political control of the nation with an election, and destroy the legacy of a POTUS you don’t like.

Positions such as these towards Iraq by citizens and the DNC candidates cause me to I seriously question their humanity.

It’s absurd to advocate that the US must mend relations with the “int’l community”, then ignore a struggling state asking for help. Interesting idea of interstate “friendship” you have there. And perhaps the perfect example of just *why* the national security for both countries is not goverened by poll results.

Civilian voters and poll respondents tend to be short sighted, ill informed, and unaware of the regional future consequences. And why? Because, like you, they refuse to read anything more than headlines.

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I tried to leave a comment at the TPMMuckracker site, but get “page not found” when I hit “send”. Too bad:

I’m sorry, but even in absence of the recent Pentagon Report released that DOES confirm links between Saddam’s Iraq and the al-Qaeda NETWORK and affiliates, there have long been intell that points to ties between Saddam and al Qaeda. Even going back to every Meet the Press interview Cheney has done, he was always cautious about overstating the links. Yet what detractors do, is they cherrypick and cite halfquotes, rather than look to context and accuracy of citation. They also confuse the difference between “Saddam tied to 9/11″ and “Saddam/al Qaeda”.

Really, read the Pentagon report. It should put to rest the notion that a secular Saddam would never collaborate with Islamic religious fanatics.

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Actually Doug, I think you’re mistaken here. That whole bit about Feith misleading people was just politics; 48hrs after his office gave their presentation in 8/02, the CIA published their “Iraqi Support for Terrorism 2002″ report. It confirmed, elaborated, and cleared up any misconceptions Feith’s office might have created.

Also, that second link uses dated, incomplete information. This week the Pentagon released a report that examined some of the documents, tapes, etc captured in Iraq. The investigation didn’t find an “operational” link between the regime and AQ, but it did find collaborative ties which had previously not been discovered due to a lack of evidence resulting from a lack of evidence gathering. The Pentagon report concluded concluded that Saddam was a terror threat to the US, and that his regime was/did support Al Queda groups. It’s not a very popular concept for opponents of the war, so they often tend to investigate and point fingers that would dismiss or degrade the war’s causes; pointing them towards the Bush Administration rather than Saddam’s regime and Al Queda.

We’ve written extensively on it here at Flopping Aces just this week alone. Have you had a chance to look at any of those articles reviewing the regime ties etc?

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Oh, goodness! Truly there are too many instances of Cheney’s fallen principle circumscribing the Iraq for me to elaborate on, especially when my time is limited and so many others have already done the work for us (…and I’m not inclined to do a ‘link drop’ as you are more than capable to run-down the same.) Therefore, let me interest you in one of my top ten favorites: ; )

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/02/cheneys_lies.html

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/002961.php

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Raddatz: ‘Two-third of Americans say it’s not worth fighting.’

Cheney, smiling: ‘So?’

Raddatz: ‘So? You don’t care what the American people think?’

Cheney: ‘No. I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public-opinion polls. …

That reeks of awesomeness!

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Please elaborate if you don’t mind

“One should lead from principle, not polls. However, in this case there is no history of principle to be found in Cheney’s story on the war.”

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In an interview with Cheney by ABC’s Martha Raddatz finds Cheney’s “principle”:

Raddatz: ‘Tell me what you said to the Iraqi leadership and how far you’re willing to push them.’

V.P.: ‘On the security front, I think there’s a general consensus that we’ve made major progress, that the surge has worked. … That’s been a major success.’

Raddatz: ‘Two-third of Americans say it’s not worth fighting.’

Cheney, smiling: ‘So?’

Raddatz: ‘So? You don’t care what the American people think?’

Cheney: ‘No. I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public-opinion polls. … There has, in fact, been fundamental change and transformation and improvement for the better. … That’s a huge accomplishment.’

True. One should lead from principle, not polls. However, in this case there is no history of principle to be found in Cheney’s story on the war.

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That the fact that polls are never able to show a consistency, proves that they can not be trusted in anyway. It really is funny, how so many people are pompous enough to claim that they know the opinions of a country’s people through numbers that are so malleable and unreliable. The best way to describe the people who go hunting for the bad news they so crave to promote their political creeds or ignore those who dissent from their politics is that they are nothing more than closet sadists.

Had any of the kool aid drinkers who believe in the polls that constantly claim a majority of Iraqis are getting aggravated through our presence had chosen to read the article linked above Then they would realize that the polls that they always site to support there conclusions are in fact misrepresentative polls.

The people who have conducted these polls such as the ones sited by Doug have chosen places that they believe would give them the results that they’re anticipating. At times, they(pollsters) will even change the numbers if they don’t like the results.

I think that is the biggest issue with polls as well as the main reason as to why none of the reliable research institutes use them to create their reports or conduct their studies. People such as the United Nations Human Security Report study group, National Heritage Foundation, Enterprise Institute for Research, PEW Global Survey, and Militaries. Overall, any poll that talks about what Iraqis think of Americans will never be accurate enough to prove who is right on either side of the political spectrum.

Let’s face the facts. Anybody who is willing to search for a poll that reflects support for what they want to be true is someone who is begging to be misled. Doug, you could learn well from that statement. In truth, noone’s political leanings are important enough to the point where they should be mendacious to themselves. At the present moment, we need an effort to find solutions and not wishful thinking of absurd proportions.

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President Jalabbi says stay two more years. Assuming you read news that doesn’t necessarily agree with your POV, the post above supplies the Nov 2007 article link, Doug. Comprehend this… Iraq is a struggling democracy, with it’s President requesting US help for two more years.

Unlike the DNC, who prefers to run our country based on the direction the wind blows in polls (results of which can usually be predicted by the media headlines for the past two weeks…), neither our current POTUS or Iraq’s President base national security decisions on poll results of citizens who not privvy to internal intel and data.

You may be bent on believing that a miniscule sampling of Iraqis definitively reflects what the entire nation believes. I counter suggest the lack of confidence reflected in these polls is driven by constant cut and run language permeating our Congress, western media, and US polls. And quite frankly, you know no more of the pulse of that nation than I do, so spare me your absolutes of being in the right.

Pocket this… if the Iraqis strongly believe they are better off with the US coalition forces gone, they need only have their elected officials issue that formal request to our CIC, and we’re history. See ya later, buh bye. Then their fate lies in the results of their choices. THEIR choices. Not American poll choices. That’s a withdrawal we can all live with, as it was Iraqi freedom of choice.

Until that request to withdraw comes formally from the govt, our last word on record from the Iraq President is that they request we *stay* for two more years. And it behooves the US to honor the elected officials request for support – most especially a country fighting for it’s very survival against the global Islamic jihad movement.

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