“But as a liberal you must know that what you speak about is not the liberal median viewpoint. In fact it’s almost exactly 180 degrees from where the liberals are at right now.”

Yeah, I’m not feelin’ the love vibe from much of anyone, these days…

“That being said, the cut and run philosophy and socialist bent coming from the Democrats will make it just as tough to get your guys elected as this immigration issue is going to be on the right side. So don’t go giggling too much. =)”

Yeah, I agree with that, too… (Not that the Dems are cut’n'runners or socialists, but that they’re seen that way, which is a distinction without a difference, electorally.)

“I’m hoping there can be some compromises done, some amendments passed, and we get something…anything…that will allow us to fine the hell out of businesses in this country that hire these illegals. If there was only one issue in this bill that could get passed, that would be it for me. Stop the businesses from hiring them, and they go away. Or they become legal.”

Generally, as far as this bill is concerned, I’m praying for gridlock (a citizen’s best friend, sometimes), but specifically, I agree completely. Once the draw of a better life (whether via gov’t freebies or steady employment) is closed, many will leave of their own accord, and those who keep saying “we can’t deport 12 million…”–who’re correct, prolly–will be saying “we can’t deport “x” million” (a much lower number, which I’m not prepared to guess at), in future.

Even if it only dropped by 1 million or so, I’d be happy, just on principle.

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Yes, this bill does have some features that were not in the last bill. But I’m afraid that the good does not outweigh the bad and that on the whole, this bill is worse.

Last year the focus of the bill as presented by my Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) was on making sure all these immigrants learned English and became part of American society. I pointed out how very difficult that would be to enforce and especially so now that we have large ghettos of unacculturated, uneducated immigrants totally self segregated living right here in my own county.

This new bill tosses the idea of assimilation and acculturation out the window and says you can stay as long as you pay to renew your Z visa. The danger of a permanent underclass of persons cut off from the larger society should be evident to all.

There’s a giant fiscal cost to that too which Robert Rector at the Heritage Foundation has disclosed:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

Immigration Counters.Com also has some very interesting statistics presented in an excellent graphic:

http://immigrationcounters.com/index.html

Frankly, I don’t understand why border security first is not possible. We passed a bill to build 800 miles of fence, but how many miles have been built? It’s understandable that people are reluctant to support a compromise which promises border security when for some reason we cannot even carry out a law which is already on the books to do just that.

Despite the positive points in this bill, I just cannot bring myself to support it unless I were more confident that we wouldn’t simply be repeating the mistakes we’ve made in past bills which have merely made the problem worse and not better.

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FRI JUNE 1 Crazy Conservatives Gone Wild

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repsac3, I agree with almost all of your idea’s for this situation. But as a liberal you must know that what you speak about is not the liberal median viewpoint. In fact it’s almost exactly 180 degrees from where the liberals are at right now.

That being said, the cut and run philosophy and socialist bent coming from the Democrats will make it just as tough to get your guys elected as this immigration issue is going to be on the right side. So don’t go giggling too much. =)

Here’s the problem though. It only works if we have border enforcement. If Walid can sneak across the rio grande like he is able to do now, then no smart card in the world will help things.

I agree, that’s why I agree with calling for more enforcement. But Dafydd also spelled out how this bill could help in tracking down the bad guys….while it’s a bill with some good ideas, some very bad idea’s, and lots of idea’s with no plans to fund them, it IS better then nothing. In this Democrat controlled congress we will not get a enforcement only bill passed…won’t happen. Like I said, you reap what you sow. You stay home in 2006 and now we have the most crooked of the pack leading both houses, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha, Feinstein….and lets throw in Jefferson.

So now we have to deal with it. Don’t like it but this is reality.

I’m hoping there can be some compromises done, some amendments passed, and we get something…anything…that will allow us to fine the hell out of businesses in this country that hire these illegals. If there was only one issue in this bill that could get passed, that would be it for me. Stop the businesses from hiring them, and they go away. Or they become legal.

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Here’s the problem though. It only works if we have border enforcement. If Walid can sneak across the rio grande like he is able to do now, then no smart card in the world will help things.

Jim C

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I forgot to mention enforcement… More of that, too.

More agents, if that’s what we need, but certainly more agents taking action against the influx, and more cooperation between ICE & local/state/federal jurisdictions.

(Not such a big fan of the Minutemen, though… Good theory, but a recipe for trouble eventually, in real life…)

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Curt, thanks for such a great post! It paints an easy-to-understand picture of the immigration bill.

Tiara, I think just the opposite. You and too many others have personalized the illegal-immigrant issue to the point that it blinds you to the fact that they are breaking the law…pure and simple!

Let’s say someone needs some jeans. They can get by with (and afford) $15 jeans, but would prefer some $75 jeans. Are you saying it’s okay to steal the $75 jeans? Or worse yet, hand me the bill to pay for them just because I’m in line behind them?

Your link says that in Mexico they make $6,000 per year, yet you compare it to our poverty level. That’s apples and oranges. Have you checked their much lower cost of living compared to our’s?

I haven’t heard anyone object to “legal” immigration. The point I’m trying to make is that if they want to get in to the U.S. so badly, then come “legally.”

All we’re saying is, “Don’t break our laws, use our healthcare and school systems, etc. then expect us to just rollover pay the bill and be happy about it.”

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As a liberal, I agree that helping other countries build their economies & political/social structures may help slow the tide a little. (I’d want to be as certain as possible that it’d be worth what it’d cost before agreeing to anything, though.) I’m also pretty damned sure that if it was a choice between breaking the laws of another country and feeding my family, I wouldn’t reallly care about the law, either.

After that, we part company, Tiara. I believe in borders. I believe in the law. While it probably is cosmically unfair that some was born here and others wasn’t, them’s the breaks. (& yes… Was I born there, I’d probably be less flippant about it, but them’s part of the breaks, too.)

I think the wall will be really unattractive, and screw with animal migration. But unless/until I’m persuaded that thousands will die (from people to one eyed spotted newt fish, that’re essential to the ecosystem) I say build it.

Deport criminals.

Fine businesses that hire illegals. Fine them alot, and often. Fine them until no business would ever think of hiring an illegal alien.The sooner we dry up the pot of gold at the end of the US rainbow, the sooner folks will move back home. Maybe it’ll even help US wages go up, too.

*IF* we end up with a labor shortage, increase the slots for legal immigrants, and streamline the process, so that it’s not so cumbersome. And maintain the value we’ve always placed on families… This idea of getting the kind of workers we need is laudable, but splitting up families to do so, isn’t. It reminds me of the days when folks were rewarded in the workplace for not being married/having children.

One more liberal point… The fact that it’ll probably make electing conservatives more difficult, and that Republicans are helping to make it happen, does tickle me no end… 8>) But even that doesn’t make this foolish immigration plan worth the cost to this country.

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We are in this mess because Bush wants us to be in this mess. If he was threatening to veto any bill like this, it would never have happened.

In 2000 I knew he was not a strong anti-illegal immigrant advocate…how did you not know this? Like I said, I am not one issue voter, never will be. I disagree with him on this issue but I am extremely glad he has been in office these past 7 years.

I am going to vote for the most conservative candidate I can find in the next election, regardless of party. If that person turns out to be a Dem, so be it.

What? Tell me a Dem who is conservative? That’s ignorant. And I am not telling you not to vote for a conservative candidate, please read the post completely before making a comment like that. I am decrying the fact that those same “stay at home” Republicans from 2006 are doing it again which will cause a Hillary to get into office. Think the illegal immigration issue will get better then?

Sure, they broke the law crossing the border, but what do you think you would do if you were poor, your family’s starving and you only make $2 an hour- you’d act on a survival instinct and cross the border, hell or high water, to ensure the livelihood of your family and yourself!

Oh really? So instead of trying to fix their OWN government they should just come to our land and get all the free medical, all the free schooling, on the taxpayers dime.

I think your wish for a huge wall across the border is humorous, and about as full-proof as a condom.

And I think your moral relativist view of the world is ignorant and naive. Oh, condoms are pretty damn full-proof so that was a terrible analogy. Will there ever be anything 100% full proof? Nope…but it’s much better then going bare back.

If gunshots and risk of arrest doesn’t deter these people, neither will some climbing.

That’s why you spend more on border patrol to man the damn thing. Geez, your dense.

Doing something to ENFORCE the laws we have on the books is better then what we have now. If I thought it was realistic then I would be for deporting every single one of them, plus repealing the act in the forteenth amendment that allowed for anchor babies. While the first one is unrealistic, the second one is not.

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I think this kind of view is incredibly small-minded. You’ve depersonlized illegal immigrants into a number and forgotten their humanity. Sure, they broke the law crossing the border, but what do you think you would do if you were poor, your family’s starving and you only make $2 an hour- you’d act on a survival instinct and cross the border, hell or high water, to ensure the livelihood of your family and yourself! You were lucky enough to be born here in the land of plenty. You can blame those who had the misfortune of being born in a poor county for wanting something better. I think your wish for a huge wall across the border is humorous, and about as full-proof as a condom. If gunshots and risk of arrest doesn’t deter these people, neither will some climbing. If you want to stop the mass illegal immigration, you gotta go right to the source. I explain how in my blog: http://blogs.ardmoreite.com/node/31. Read it, and then try to tell me how I’m wrong.

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